no, if you read that thing Tom posted, I'm being called that. Gemini said to me "why are you a 'heartless City liberal'"Originally Posted by Alex.L
You didn't call me that, but you did say I had no ties to it and you continue to imply that I disregard the "human perspective."
Last edited by JayBee; 10-11-2016 at 01:24 PM. Reason: Added the quote I'm responding to, from the previous page, fixed Gemini's quote
Let's make Edmonton better.
Okay, we're getting there, but there are a few more assumptions we need to expose:
1. None of us (including me) know how many of the affected positions are even filled right now.
2. None of us know how many of the positions are filled with people who live in a rural area. (As opposed to commuting one hour from Sherwood Park (I personally know one person who is doing that, but I know that's not the only one.)
3. None of us know how many of the positions are filled with people who don't wish to live in a rural area. (But again, that's one of the things we have a stated reason about.)
Let's make Edmonton better.
Tom didn't call you anything. He said "I came across this cracked.com article on "The Albertans against Conservatives" facebook page and while it is about the US Election it does highlight some posters attitudes on here."
Didn't call you out. Didn't call you a Liberal. He found it on a page called "Albertans against Conservatives". That doesn't mean anything. It's just where he found it.
I'm on...I think...the same side as Tom here and I saw myself in that article as well.
Sometimes if you're offended by something it's not because it was meant to offend you. It's because you're looking to be offended.
^ I invited Tom to clarify, I don't think you can clarify for me what he's thinking.
But then can we be finished with the assumptions about me on your behalf?
Let's make Edmonton better.
Sure, as long as I'm not going to be called a Conservative hypocrite.
The questions you posed earlier about how many locals are working at CPC, how many are commuting, etc. are all good question and I'd like to know the answers as well.
If the majority are commuting from Edmonton my stance on this might soften, but then we have to shift to the economic spinoff that will be lost as a direct result of this decision.
^ I already said I wasn't referring to you as a right-wing hypocrite. That would be the people in this thread who defend the likes of Trump, Ford, and Klein, and I think they should know who they are; who then two-facedly turn around and say "governments shouldn't save money"(because this is their turf, obviously.)
Appologies, sometimes I'm referring to the trend of the thread, sometimes to specific individuals.
It would be nice to know.
Let's make Edmonton better.
Jaybee
Try reading sometime ... I said
Now I did it specifically that way after some thought before posting to:I came across this cracked.com article on "The Albertans against Conservatives" facebook page and while it is about the US Election it does highlight some posters attitudes on here.
http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-reason...alks-about_p2/
a) Put the article out there as I feel it is a very good one.
b) Because it is about the US election I wanted to clarify how it relates to this specific conversation
c) Did not want to call anyone out or make it personal
When pushed ... by you ...I stated clearly:
The way I see it, doesn't matter what I believe, read the article and if the shoe fits wear it.
Again because I did not want it to be personal and have no time for petty pissing matches.
So you choose to push it more to which I responded:
Prepare to be disappointed
Just to be annoying
Because I owe you nothing and I am at that point in my life were if someone rudely demands something from me they will not get it.
So Jaybee if you have read it and decided the shoe fits you ... look at the mirror.
No one called you out or called you anything, except you.
Clarified
Alex L
Several times in the media it has been pointed out that of the 280 "workers" positions 230 have families and are living in Vegreville itself.
This was repeated between 11:30 and Noon on the Ryan Jespersen show.
It has not been, that I have found, cleared as to if the other 50 workers are commuting from immediately adjacent communities or Edmonton. It has also not been clear on how many management or supervisory positions are living in Vegreville, immediately adjacent communities or Edmonton.
BTW media has covered several times this is a processing centre for applications ... paper in (or online) - paper out (or online) no one dropping off or coming to the centre.
Hope that helps your thought process.
Last edited by Thomas Hinderks; 10-11-2016 at 03:13 PM.
All I know is that the processing centre may need a lot more qualified personnel than 280 to handle the influx of American refugees!
“You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012
Thanks for the clarification Tom. My stance is even more in favour of the CPC remaining in Vegreville now.
Tom you've dressed up your contempt well, but it's still baseless. You're stereotyping me, you're putting words into my mouth, and then calling me rude for calling you on it.
Whatever. I still support Vegreville vastly more than you may ever allow yourself to believe (or at least admit.)
Sorry it wounds some of you guys so deeply that I know bureaucracy is not merely about the paper, but about the human beings inside the bureaucrats, their families, dreams, and aspirations, just like the evil city slicker's ancestors who left the farm. Urbanisation is a Global phenomenon. You can't stop the tide. This is why they have trouble recruiting qualified people.
And you know what? It doesn't even stop there. It's also about the people they serve, and their dreams and and aspirations and families. And about their future neighbours, coworkers, and friends. The processing times, the accuracy of the [sarcasm]paperwork[/sarcasm] is what's enabled our society over the generations. We are literally a Nation of immigrants plus the first nations.
This is critical work, and it needs qualified people to do it. It's not that the people doing it now are doing it badly, but how much quicker they could do it with a full staff that they don't continually need to retrain. This is a legitimate problem, and despite what a horrible person I am, this is the reason it needs to be in a city with a palatable compromise of lifestyle, education, and opportunity for the bureaucrats and their families for all of the people who immigrate in the future and the past, and their children and grandchildren who are very ironically are arguing vehemently against me now.
And no, it's time to debunk this ridiculous idea that "Edmonton can afford to lose". You guys have to know, we are not that big. We can not afford to spread out like that. We as a Province DO get weaker when we toss efficiency aside for pork barrel.
Last edited by JayBee; 10-11-2016 at 07:11 PM.
Let's make Edmonton better.
So why do you keep whining about all the corporations that left Edmonton, if you think efficiency is what matters? With you, its pretty clear, if its something coming to Edmonton at someone else's expense, its always fine. If its leaving Edmonton though for someone else's benefit, like Safeway moving a dozen staff in a regional office, then its a mass conspiracy against Edmonton.
Big cities can look after themselves. I think Calgary and Edmonton have an important role in supporting small communities, not trying to consolidate them / move all their more unique jobs, even if they once arose from pork, to the big smoke. Both cities are better than that, this move is tragic for Vegerville. The Dominion Diamond move to Calgary is tragic as well for Yellowknife. But you carry on celebrating the big "win".
^ way to strawman as usual.
I don't "whine" about Imperial Oil and Enbridge and Telus and Shaw and so on leaving. I understand perfectly well why they left.
I whine about the "free international airline" your garbageheaded Lougheed gave Calgary with our own money that caused them to leave and forced our free enterprise airline into bankruptcy.
*****.
Let's make Edmonton better.
Oh Didums, Gemini just followed your statement when your were more or less begging some one to call you a 'heartless city liberal' so you could go lick your wounds somewhere. Sometimes there are threads out there that people take a stance on then turn themselves into pretzels trying to justify what they have posted.no, if you read that thing Tom posted, I'm being called that. Gemini said to me "why are you a 'heartless City liberal'"
You didn't call me that, but you did say I had no ties to it and you continue to imply that I disregard the "human perspective."
In this post you're the pretzel. Maybe over the weekend contemplate what each small town offers to the well being of the Canadian fabric.
A place to stop for a bite to eat for long haul drivers.
A place for farm people to pick up mail and congregate and hold meetings and parties.
Small hospitals that are there to administer help so people don't have to drive maybe a hundred miles to a big city.
RCMP detachments that provide law and order for 100's of square miles.
A great alternative for people who don't want to live in a big city.
There are a number of reasons why these small towns should remain viable. Vegreville may be a farm town but we have all heard of Regional Diversification.
I think a non public federal government office fits perfectly there under the banner of Regional Diversification.
Maybe quit bleating and stop injecting into your post what people have not called you. Well, I guess you could say 'pretzel'.
Last edited by Gemini; 10-11-2016 at 08:37 PM.
Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.
That remark was for J B but your post got in before this one.Is there now a residency requirement to post on this forum? If so, what is it? Please don't beat around the bush - let us know what you really think.
Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.
Tom you've dressed up your contempt well,
There was no contempt when I made the original post ... I took the time BEFORE I posted
to avoid exactly where you CHOSE to go, yes YOU chose to go.
Nope you've earned it since, by your actions and deciding to play wounded.but it's still baseless.
Nope, I posted a damn well written article, in my opinion, in the most impersonal way I could while still explainingYou're stereotyping me, you're putting words into my mouth
it's relevance. By observing YOUR actions I can only guess you read the article, saw yourself and didn't like what you saw.
Yes rude, didn't want to make it personal, gave you 3 outs to back off but YOU chose to push it.and then calling me rude for calling you on it.
As to your personal and political opinions ... I haven't had a problem with them, in my opinion you're wrong
and lack both empathy and accuracy, but they are your opinions and it's clear you're not going to change them.
But you chose to push things and make them personal with your self inflicted wounds.
Little wonder C2E remains with only a handful of active posters. I just question my sanity in giving C2E
another chance to get under my skin.
I'm out ... have fun in your playground Jaybee
Thomas Hinderks' last post is not convincing. The word "playground" is the giveaway.
^None of your post are convincing. What's your point?.
Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.
^ lol. Look who's talking. You can't even read.
Anyone not reading this post either can play whatever games they want, doesn't change the basic issue:
Government bureaucracy is not a simple toy for conservatives to buy votes with.
Let's make Edmonton better.
^I can't read you can't comprehend what's written. Oy veh. What a swell party this is.
Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.
Let's make Edmonton better.
Look, the move from Vegreville to Edmonton is in process. No amount of debating will change that.
At the end of the day, Edmonton is a logical choice for this centre. Factors such as transit, proximity to major centres, ability to attract qualified staff are all there. This whole conspiracy theory that the world is anti-Vegreville or anti-rural Alberta is ridiculous at best.
^Why is Edmonton the logical choice when it is a Government Office that is not open to the public?. In this day and age of parcel/letter delivery within 24 hours, email attachments and all kinds of electronic gizmo's to grease the wheels. I bet there are people working at that office that get to work faster on the highway than many people coming from the suburbs of Edmonton to get downtown. It's been open for over 20 years and all of a sudden there's a problem. I don't think so. Nobody but you is saying it's a conspiracy theory. Once more, why is Edmonton (or any major city) the logical choice for an office not open to the public?.
Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.
Decision's been made. Move on.
Edmonton is the clear answer
^But you personally don't have an answer as to why Edmonton is the most logical place for it. Sounds like several others on this thread.
In this instance the government spoke and some sheeple just followed.
Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.
If you want to know why the decision was made for Edmonton, then call the Feds. After that, maybe call Telus, Shaw, and Enbridge offices to see why they left Edmonton.
The world is full of kings and queens, who blind your eyes then steal your dreams.
It's heaven and hell!
Then...on equal footing...all this hullabaloo that the Lougheed - Prentice era was anti-Edmonton is...in your words...ridiculous at best. The problem with many here is that...like some of the whining down south...they can't see the hypocrisy when they cry foul on one side, then tell people who feel fouled on the other side to pound sand when they get fouled. Hence...comments of pious...
I remember how Edmonton got kicked, so I have no issue standing up for another centre that is getting kicked for no real good reason. Transit et al is not the reason why it's moving...it is just a good sound bite...
This whole centre cares not about transit, and as others have rightly pointed out, many employees are in Veg, and it is unclear if others are in Lloyd, Tofield, Sherwood Park...
As for
TELUS - merger of BC Tel and TELUS...then BCTTelus....to TELUS. Government incentives by Victoria, GTE wanting them to be closer to the US border, and a fight between Canfield and Petty.If you want to know why the decision was made for Edmonton, then call the Feds. After that, maybe call Telus, Shaw, and Enbridge offices to see why they left Edmonton.
Shaw - fight with the CofE, more business in Calgary, good building offer, and the two airport debate
Enbridge - consolidate with Calgary and US business interests, access to markets...etc Private companies...
Gov't of Canada and Veg. Edmonton is a Liberal potential. Offer to Veg was a PC gift. Gift now goes where it can do more good for a Liberal. Liberals can hide behind righting a wrong. Using "conservative logic" of relocation due to economics as an excuse, when a "Liberal" would try to help out the struggling town with something like this...is telling. My position won't change on this. This is a stupid, politically motivated move. It is no coincidence that it happened right after a Con win in Medicine Hat. Instead of figuring out WHY Medicine Hat won't give a federal Liberal a chance...they just think punishing is the answer...or more appropriately, writing them off...
Keeping this open would be the most Liberal thing the Liberals could do...sunny ways and all that...
A generation later, this "gift" is now a part of the fabric of the town...a major employer. Corporate Canada leaving and gutting small towns was one of the hallmarks of the anti-NAFTA rhetoric coming from the Liberals back in the Mulroney days...remember??
I spend more time in the rural world as of late...and I am seeing first hand how these towns are dying. For those in the downtown is everything club...remember how you felt when "Calgary got everything"? Turn that mirror around...maybe a little self reflection is in order.
Look south. See what happens when governments of all stripes decimate smaller centres. If you think rural AB is bad, try rural America. Decimation would be a step up. Read/listen to Michael Moore's take. Look at Sander's platform of trying to help out the smaller centres. Both parties down there ignored the working class, the small city and town cries...the eviscerated industries... So, some orange Tang wannabe bust through...or more appropriately down an escalator...said all kinds of deplorable things but still said we will protect you...and proceeded to destroy BOTH primary political party's standing go-to teams (Bush v Clinton)...again...listen to Michael Moore's take...
...a Trump victory was not in any way a landslide...a mere margin of error won it...~100,000 votes in PA, MI, WI...
No? Then continue to hide behind the "Capital City" smugness and then find out what happens at the next provincial election. Wildrose anyone? There will be enough suburban discontent...and rural disgust...for the downtown pious pathetic gimmie everything, you suck if you're not here vibe. Then you can whine in your craft beer, be one of the 6 people that care about the CBC to call into CBC radio and lament, and say how rural Alberta is bigoted and screwed you while you conveniently forget you told them to eat crap, go bankrupt, and die a mere 2 years earlier. People will remember...as they stare at an empty table, huge bills, creditors calling, and no hope... while you downtowners debate whether you want a froo froo latte and debate which buck buck new resto bar serves the latest overpriced hipster poppycock, or why the massing of tower XYZ does not contribute to "urbanity"...and they'll send you a big truck you at the ballot box.
After all, your smug, "just move to Edmonton" crass crap doesn't help sell the deflated home in Vegreville, keep the creditors at bay, diversify the provincial economy, or make them feel like it is the right move.
Look south. There's a huge lesson for all there...
Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.
Telus, Shaw, Enbridge are not Federal Government. They are private entities that set their own pace. Governments (hopefully) should encourage regional diversification whenever their is a chance. Should foster equal opportunities for all Canadians whenever possible. Should try to keep small towns thriving and viable.
Try driving on the highway and run into a problem then have to wait a couple of hours or more for help as there are no small towns close for anyone to come to your assistance. No small towns because nobody thought they were worth keeping viable.
Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.
It's a interesting theoretical argument. If you look a something as a finite circle of activity as in looking for profit centre's, (looking at just the processing function) they can can often maximize efficiency and minimize costs by centralizing everything. Taxpayers only concerned about minimizing tax expenditures focus solely on the entity/functional costs. Like a city that saves on its own financial accounts by cutting say, snow clearing, but on the wider population's aggregate books, the costs of the resulting car accidents can far exceed the city's savings.
However, sometimes far larger gains come with just a bit more expenditure (as in supporting a smaller centre) society can gain far more back if we consider a larger circle of activity than just the processing function. As I've tried to argue, this service there might be providing the critical mass to the local economy to keep that local economy sustainable. Or in the snow clearing example, the capital C City takes the financial hit but the citizens, the small c city in aggregate saves far, far more.
In other words we always have to be careful about being penny wise (at the functional level) and pound foolish (at the community / society level).
Last edited by KC; 12-11-2016 at 10:30 PM.
"I do think that it is a message for left-of-centre politicians who focus on large policies that are out of touch with regular working people. We saw that in the U.S. election. We saw that in Brexit," she said.
"It is a message to Mr. Trudeau, who is more interested in impressing bureaucrats at the United Nations with his big policies that really are hurting working people. And the more out of touch you are with regular working people ... the more you will be rejected."
Ambrose made the remarks at a news conference she called to protest the Liberal government's plan to move a federal immigration processing office and its 280 jobs to Edmonton from Vegreville, a rural town in eastern Alberta.
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/11..._12903184.html
Wow, Ambrose, I'm impressed. Captain Selfie got a slap down.
Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.
There was some good debate here about the role of government in economic development and diversification. It would be better if people didn't try to turn it into an issue demonizing those whose political views they do not agree with, because the other side can play that game just as well. Remember, Ambrose was not so impressive when the Harper government was closing all those Veterans Affairs centers in smaller communities.
We will see what the US voters think of Trump in a few years. I doubt his tax cuts for the wealthy will do much to benefit the working people of small town America. If they are still struggling then and the rich are getting richer they may end up seeing him as being just as out of touch as other politicians. The price of a lot of food and other imports is going up in the UK due to Brexit. I don't see that helping regular working people either, but the promises politicians make and what they actually do are often vastly different.
^Maybe go to "the Liberals doing a good job" thread. Around the #690 post about the political divide. I find time after time that it is the left on this thread are the once that perpetuate it.
Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.
I looked at the post, but I fail to see how they "started" it I don't think the person who posted #690 is a liberal and the link in #690 to the criticism of the liberal government wasn't by a liberal either. If you just want to bash your political opponents - fine, at least be honest about it and don't blame them for you doing it.
Well should have said look at #690 onward as I don't think #690 voted for our current ruling party. Yes, I do bash politicians but I don't perpetuate the divide by using their political affiliation. Neither do I do it to people on this board which some people do.I looked at the post, but I fail to see how they "started" it I don't think the person who posted #690 is a liberal and the link in #690 to the criticism of the liberal government wasn't by a liberal either. If you just want to bash your political opponents - fine, at least be honest about it and don't blame them for you doing it.
Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.
Well ... #691 was your post, which included "I have seem on this thread some people try to inject a Lib/Dem/NDP slant to everything but most of us don't take the bait but I have to say that the ones who do this are usually liberal SJW who seem to like to inject their bias in some threads."Well should have said look at #690 onward as I don't think #690 voted for our current ruling party. Yes, I do bash politicians but I don't perpetuate the divide by using their political affiliation. Neither do I do it to people on this board which some people do.I looked at the post, but I fail to see how they "started" it I don't think the person who posted #690 is a liberal and the link in #690 to the criticism of the liberal government wasn't by a liberal either. If you just want to bash your political opponents - fine, at least be honest about it and don't blame them for you doing it.
Also, #693 and #695 were yours too. You don't perpetuate? You don't bash others? You have no bias? Really?
I do have a bias but I don't label others by their political stripes as very few people agree whole heartedly with what a party stands for. As well as the book their are shades of grey in all political areas.
Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.
There's no shade of grey in putting government bureaucracy in a farming/highway town. It's abuse of resources. It's deliberate inefficiency. It's obvious pork barrel.
Literally the only "positive" reason to have put this office there in the first place is to have bought votes for a certain party.
Let's make Edmonton better.
So, JayBee...
Speaking of pork barrel, abuse of resources, and trying to buy votes for a certain party...
It seems a little crow may need to be served.
http://globalnews.ca/news/3458943/mo...illions-extra/
Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.
there are two errors in that article (or the same error repeated). canada place may be in the fed's property inventory but it is not owned space. it was sold some years back to larco and is leased from it's current private sector owners.
"If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee
Haven't heard much from JayBee lately, their last post was in March....
I'm not too worried. I am rather enjoying the deafening silence from all the people who railed on about how Veg should be smacked down simply for cost efficiency. Turns out the staff DOESN'T want to move, and this is more expensive.
This move again proves out that patronage decisions are ubiquitous amongst parties. This never ever was about cost efficiency or recruitment. It is the same logic that put it out in Veg in the first place, with the only difference being some modicum of ability to attempt to justify via alleged cost effectiveness and recruitment. The original move was a bit more blatant, but could also be guised under rural diversification...something that all parties keep talking about...but do absolutely ZERO to effect.
I have yet another multi-billion dollar boondoggle I am fighting out my way....multi-party BS destroying rural lands and not compensating for the loss... or utilizing the boondoggle to potentially try to diversify the rural economy. $1.4-1.6B dollar boondoggle to be exact...but that's for another thread. Moral of the story...urban still looks at rural as it's trash, its garbage dump, and simply as just a bunch of regressive mouth breathers who deserve nothing but contempt and disrespect...
Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.
After backlash in Alberta, Liberals delay closure of 20 rural immigration offices.
http://edmontonjournal.com/news/poli...c-379e11907e79
.Good news for Vegreville.
Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.
...for now.
Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.
it doesn't effect the Vegreville closure. Its still planned to happen end of 2018
...still planned...but reviewed...hence my comment "for now"...
Odds are, with the continued IDGAF attitude expressed by governments of all stripes when it comes to small town/rural anywhere...it's doomed at its Vegreville location. I went to a few rural diversification sessions, two with Minister Bilous, where absolutely nothing even remotely concrete was presented...it will be lather, rinse, repeat. Rural anywhere is a dumping ground.
Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.
from the article, i got that they are reviewing new closures but not the Vegreville one. I could be wrong.
No Top_Dawg doesn't think you're wrong trickster.
Top_Dawg knows someone who worked on the commercial renovation in Canada Place where this processing facility is being transferred from Veg.
It was a pretty big project.
And it's all done.
Well, I feel bad for Vegreville, but let's face it, the placement in Veg was a political gift from Mazenkowski to begin with and what the right hand giveth the the left taketh away.
... gobsmacked
I'm sure the political right will take every opportunity to fling mud, but their #1 priority is smaller and/or more efficient government, which is what these moves are. Chances are it includes some upgrades to immigration processing capabilities with new tech and efficiencies, which is also the right's #1 priority. They only have #1 priorities.
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal
Just throwing in a cross-ref to a dissimilar jobs shifting issue (unless at 50,000’):Provincial Super Lab - South Campus
http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/showt...982#post867982
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