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Thread: Edmonton may get new jobs at Vegreville's expense

  1. #1

    Default Edmonton may get new jobs at Vegreville's expense

    Normally, I'd be saying new job prospects in Edmonton is good news, but with the rural economy being what it is, I'm not so sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton journal
    Vegreville mayor outraged at prospect of losing immigration office
    Vegreville's mayor was outraged Thursday after he said federal officials indicated they plan to move the town's immigration centre to Edmonton.
    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...gration-office.
    Onward and upward

  2. #2

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    I have to agree. There's a reasonable argument that it never should have been in vegreville, but it is and the loss is a much bigger loss than the gain is to Edmonton.

    I wonder what savings are expected from the move, and whether they might be less than the costs inflicted on their employees.
    There can only be one.

  3. #3

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    This is equivalent to 40,000 jobs to edmonton.

    You would think that it would be a very visible opportunity in vegreville, and if bilingualism is necessary for those jobs then Veg schools would have made French a priority, since they could probably count on 10 kids in every high school class eventually finding work there.
    There can only be one.

  4. #4

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    With all of the issues around expensive housing in core markets, I think placing government institutions in smaller communities can be a good way to help attract investment outside of a few places.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    The vast majority of those positions will be English only as this centre serves a region where bilingual positions are not a mandatory requirement. I am not sure where they are planning to relocate to in Edmonton but I can tell you that due to the downsizing of the federal public service under Harper and the 40% reduction of individual workspace allotted to each public servant, Canada Place is becoming less crowded and departments who once had to relocate are now coming back.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander II View Post
    I have to agree. There's a reasonable argument that it never should have been in vegreville, but it is and the loss is a much bigger loss than the gain is to Edmonton.

    (...)
    My thoughts as well...

    I remember when it was announced. It smacked of a "gift", but as someone who grew up in rural Alberta, it was a welcomed one. I was curious as to why an immigration centre would be the gift of choice other than it was the only gift on the "shelf". Remember, this was before the Internet was anywhere close to being what it is...

    You're right. It is like a large company with 40,000 jobs leaving Edmonton. Or, it is akin to the move of the Energy portfolio from Edmonton to Calgary.

    The main reason I could see is the ability to attract a more diverse group, but as you rightly say they could develop what they already have.

    This smacks of politics. Yes, one could argue that its initial location was political, but its there
    Onward and upward

  7. #7

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    I vaguely remember when the passport went to Vegreville some saying it was a political move. Now I cannot say what federal politician it was the routed for this but he was from that area. If the rumor is true that these jobs will be coming back to Edmonton it will be a big blow for the town. They are well paying jobs. On the other hand, when Vegreville was chosen for this office most people thought it bizarre. They not only do passports out at Vegreville I think they also do working visa's etc.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    I vaguely remember when the passport went to Vegreville some saying it was a political move. Now I cannot say what federal politician it was the routed for this but he was from that area.
    To Top_Dawg's recollection, it was a nice big vat of pork blubber drippings for Mazankowski's riding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    I vaguely remember when the passport went to Vegreville some saying it was a political move. Now I cannot say what federal politician it was the routed for this but he was from that area.
    To Top_Dawg's recollection, it was a nice big vat of pork blubber drippings for Mazankowski's riding.
    It was all due to Mazankowski. That being said I do believe there are a fair number of employees that already live in Edmonton and commute.

  10. #10

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    Mazankowski must have had a lot of clout what with a wing of the U of A hospital named after him.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisD View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    I vaguely remember when the passport went to Vegreville some saying it was a political move. Now I cannot say what federal politician it was the routed for this but he was from that area.
    To Top_Dawg's recollection, it was a nice big vat of pork blubber drippings for Mazankowski's riding.
    It was all due to Mazankowski. That being said I do believe there are a fair number of employees that already live in Edmonton and commute.
    When I was out there in 1995, yes that was the case of commuting. In 2016, I'm not so sure. It's almost a generation.
    Onward and upward

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    I guess I'm in the minority here. Presuming they are moving into Canada Place, I welcome the notion of new downtown office usage coming to Edmonton. Pork barrel politics aside, I never saw the logic of having a major immigration facility in some small one horse town.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Well Top_Dawg knew a poodle who car pooled out there with three other hens even three years ago.

    Probly still do.

    Holy fuq.

    Can you imagine being in that fuq'n vehicle with those magpies for an hour-and-a-half each way every day.


  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post
    Well Top_Dawg knew a poodle who car pooled out there with three other hens even three years ago.

    Probly still do.

    Holy fuq.

    Can you imagine being in that fuq'n vehicle with those magpies for an hour-and-a-half each way every day.

    I don't travel in any multi-user scenario without headphones for this exact reason.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  15. #15

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    It was put there at great expense to the taxpayer for obvious non-reasons.

    A poor model of bureaucracy. And as if Edmonton doesn't 'need' these jobs just as much.

    A good time to right the wrong.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post
    Well Top_Dawg knew a poodle who car pooled out there with three other hens even three years ago.

    Probly still do.

    Holy fuq.

    Can you imagine being in that fuq'n vehicle with those magpies for an hour-and-a-half each way every day.

    ........................then having to work with them as well.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    It was put there at great expense to the taxpayer for obvious non-reasons.

    A poor model of bureaucracy. And as if Edmonton doesn't 'need' these jobs just as much.

    A good time to right the wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    I guess I'm in the minority here. Presuming they are moving into Canada Place, I welcome the notion of new downtown office usage coming to Edmonton. Pork barrel politics aside, I never saw the logic of having a major immigration facility in some small one horse town.
    Listen to what you are saying here.

    You are saying that a small centre should not have economic diversification, any economic diversification that may come from a federal grant or location of civil servants, and that something put somewhere at expense to the taxpayer that benefits a centre that is not your own is therefore wrong. You are saying that it has to be a direct correlation to a place that needs jobs, and also should have a direct alignment to the method of work/reason for existing that this department would have.

    You then go a step further and say it has to be downtown! If the statement is true that more people commute to this department then live in Vegreville, one would assume they live on the east side of town. Why not put it in Kingsway, or in a business park in Hermitage? So now because the jobs are in Edmonton they have to only go downtown? We are working to sacrifice our rural partners small towns and anything else to just go downtown? You're expecting these workers to also live downtown? Seriously, if most of these people are already here in Edmonton and commuting out, the most this is going to help downtown is during business hours! I guess the new tan tan will sell some more dim sum.

    You're basically saying screw off to anything rural or small-town. You basically embodying the reason why the region doesn't want amalgamate with Edmonton. This pious holier than thou attitude that Edmonton deserves everything and everybody else can go pound sand is a huge Achilles' heel. I guess Arctic Spa should move to Edmonton? What's a world leading manufacturer doing all the way in Thorsby? Any lumber mills should be in Edmonton and not in Drayton Valley! The logic that's being posed here is extremely dangerous.

    Let's put that foot (and heel) on a slightly different leg. It's an immigration centre, so why Edmonton? Wouldn't these 280 immigration jobs be better purposed in a centre with colossal immigration such as Vancouver, Toronto, or Montréal? Since this is a federal government department, shouldn't this be in Ottawa? Don't those centres look at Edmonton and call it a one horse town? Wouldn't those 280 jobs be welcomed in Saskatoon, Regina, or Winnipeg? I'll bet you just as they've made a business case to move from Vegreville, I can make you a business case to move this to Toronto. It probably would have a better return moving it from Vegreville to Toronto if economies of scale, quicker turnarounds, using already existing space, and accessing a pool of bilingual or even tri-lingual employees is truly the goal.

    Taking that logic further, since a mere 280 jobs is a make it or break it for Edmonton's downtown, why do we turn around and say we will make it more to scale on Vegreville v Edmonton.. Let's say it's 28,000 jobs. And let's say these 28,000 jobs came from a federal government appointment on Civil Defense and the Air Force. Then the new government comes along and says, "hey those 28,000 jobs belong in Vancouver. This was a huge wrong done in the patronage appointment from 20 years ago. And while were at it let's cut 10,000 more jobs from Edmonton and move the agriculture Department to Regina where it's more appropriate. Then let's take another 10,000 jobs focused on northern diversification and put them in Yellowknife where they belong. After all, especially when it comes to the Air Force, Edmonton really is a one horse town in the middle of nowhere."

    I'm quite sure that you all wouldn't be going
    it was put (here) at great expense to the taxpayer for obvious non-reasons. A poor model of bureauracy. And as if (insert major centre here) doesn't 'need' these jobs just as much. A good time to right the wrong. Let these jobs go!
    I'm quite sure if Toronto started calling us a clapboard shantytown, or Vancouver made the one horse town mention, people would be throwing up their hands and angst and agony saying how dare you!!!

    I'm quite sure that people would use the excuse of its 2016, and a telecommunications and telecommuting infrastructure is significantly greater than it was in 1994. Please don't move these jobs out of Edmonton because they can telecommute, yet if a small town in Alberta as a same capabilities, they can go lick a spruce tree? What's even funnier, would be the verbal diatribes I know I be reading on this form if CN was given an incentive by the Feds (aka huge expense at the taxpayer) to move its operations from Montréal to Edmonton. There will be comments from Montréal about the culture in class and one horse town-ish mentality of Edmonton versus the urban and eclectic Montréal… And I am sure the punch to the face would be responded to with harsh blow back from Edmonton boosters. Yet to a Montrealer, we are a one horse town in the middle of nowhere.

    2 wrongs don't make it right. The move to Edmonton as is much of the patronage appointment as the original selection of Veg was in the first place. The fact the mayor wasn't informed of this possibility is further infuriating evidence that this is being done callously. Vegreville is one of our regional trading partners, and we should be looking at them and other rural towns as such. Saying any small town doesn't deserve a federal department, only big-league cities do, sets up Edmonton to be punched just as hard if not harder than Veg.

    Like I said in my opening post, I'm not so much against Edmonton getting jobs but I am very concerned at the doublespeak when both are provincial and federal governments talk about helping diversify economies and sharing the wealth, and then do exactly the opposite.
    Onward and upward

  18. #18

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    Nationally critical government functions should not be run out of small towns. Only political pork-bellying installed the immigration centre in Vegreville, and I am happy to see it go.

    Properly speaking it belongs in Ottawa.
    Last edited by AShetsen; 28-10-2016 at 06:48 PM.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    Nationally critical government functions should not be run out of small towns. Only political pork-bellying installed the immigration centre in Vegreville, and I am happy to see it go.

    Properly speaking it belongs in Ottawa.
    So why isn't it moving to Ottawa?

  20. #20

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    If I knew the answer to such questions I wouldn't be posting on c2e, and you know it.

    Edmonton's a better place for such things than Vegreville. But actually government functions belong in the capital of the jurisdiction unless they are directly concerned with the local community.

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    This is a Liberal federal government, they will screw a town, uproot some 250 people and pay to move them. They're only Albertans, do you think anybody in Ottawa gives a flying leap?
    But, the way this will probably play out is the Liberals will reverse their decision and try to blame Harper for it.

  22. #22

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    If they moved it from Lac-Megantic to Quebec City, you'd shrug it off.

    By the way, are you saying people who live in Edmonton aren't Albertans?

  23. #23

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    Leave the office in Vegreville. The town will loose far more than Edmonton would ever gain. This office is a processing office. Most of the paperwork that goes there is mailed or taken by courier. It is not an office the public need to go to for one on one consultation. What with this day and age of email, email attachments etc and all kinds of faster paperwork processing these kinds of satellite offices can stay just that, satellite offices. There is a Service Canada Office in Summerside PEI. Summerside has a population of approx between 14,550 to 15,000. It helps that it is a Liberal riding. I doubt that the current government will be sniffing around to close that down anytime soon.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    If I knew the answer to such questions I wouldn't be posting on c2e, and you know it.

    Edmonton's a better place for such things than Vegreville. But actually government functions belong in the capital of the jurisdiction unless they are directly concerned with the local community.
    From a tax minimizing point of view we'd like the government to put it where it makes the most sense in terms of cost and efficiency. However, reality is always much messier. We protect industries, bail out industries, protect jobs, etc. For any number of broader societal reasons and narrower political reasons. Sometime the results are great as a result. The issues are temporary and the support bridges that temporary issue. Here though, it might be the opposite. We've had a spike in immigration due to a number of factors and soon that trend may reverse, meaning that a small town can efficiently serve the need - and support the local economy.

    Of course, it may all be related to the refugee issue and simply be nasty politics at play.

  25. #25

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    ^It's a paperwork processing plant. It does not deal face to face with the public. Even if we got 50,000 immigrants tomorrow they would not have to go to Vegreville.
    People from all over Alberta mail whatever it is they have too to this office. They process it and mail it back.


    http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/informa...vegreville.asp
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  26. #26

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    Look at all these hypocritical "Conservative" mouthpieces openly calling for a waste of taxpayers' dollars.


    Absolutely ridiculous, guys. Do you believe in anything at all other than your party (which you can easily calculate stands for nothing but pork barrel)?
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  27. #27

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    Then advocate for this department to move to Ottawa JayBee. Consolidate government in the government town. Like I said, there is a better case that could be made for that move. I'll bet the main reason why it isn't completely leaving the province is politics...just like moving it out of Vegreville is. By your own logic, you've made the case for Ottawa.

    Face it, this move is politics. The blinders here are on this mantra that Edmonton needs to scoop up everything at the expense of our regional partners.

    As many have pointed out, this is a processing plant. The reality is that many of these government services departments are located in areas where a shot in the arm is needed (combined with political rationale regardless of what party is there). Don't start spouting pork barrel politics on one side when the entire system is littered with it.

    I have yet to hear one voice (that was around at the time) that didn't express surprise at the original selection of Vegreville. However, the larger issue here is what happens when you uproot things like this from communities that have grown to rely on these jobs. I threw out the Dim Sum comment for a reason. While the food courts may get yet another patron of many, the local cast iron cafe in the small town gets killed. ...and yes AShetsen, I'd be just as concerned with your PQ example. I know the comment wasn't directed at me, but the overall point is still there.

    As the region goes, Edmonton goes. We are not a world city, we are still a service depot for the smaller communities that harbour the primary resources. Edmonton could make huge political points in the region by playing this right...but it won't.

    Remember this when the government removes jobs from Edmonton and sends them to Winnipeg or Toronto...or Calgary.
    Onward and upward

  28. #28

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    Righteousness about capitals aside, the fact is that I've heard enough grumping from rural and small-town people about big cities, lefties, "Albertans" and the rest of it to last me several lifetimes.

    There's this transparently fake image that supposedly entrepreneurial, supposedly self-reliant, supposedly caring, supposedly moral, supposedly tough, definitely Conservative Albertans are the salt of the earth and nothing good comes from anywhere else except in so far as it could be transplanted immediately into rural small-town Alberta and feel at home.

    With every natural disaster, economic downturn, international incident or any other such event the same people always prove they are as much whiners for welfare and government intervention as everyone else. Except for their excessive guns, of course: leave those alone! Is the Alberta paragon an individualist? No, he is the worst sort of conformist. Arrogant when up, pitiful when down.

    Well, to be honest, Calgary and even Edmonton have too much of all that as well.

    Enough of it. If self-interest rules, let there be self-interest, without moral judgement attached.

    Stiff Vegreville. I'd rather the jobs were here.
    Last edited by AShetsen; 29-10-2016 at 07:19 AM.

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    Righteousness about capitals aside, the fact is that I've heard enough grumping from rural and small-town people about big cities, lefties, "Albertans" and the rest of it to last me several lifetimes.

    There's this transparently fake image that supposedly entrepreneurial, supposedly self-reliant, supposedly caring, supposedly moral, supposedly tough, definitely Conservative Albertans are the salt of the earth and nothing good comes from anywhere else except in so far as it could be transplanted immediately into rural small-town Alberta and feel at home.

    With every natural disaster, economic downturn, international incident or any other such event the same people always prove they are as much whiners for welfare and government intervention as everyone else. Except for their excessive guns, of course: leave those alone! Is the Alberta paragon an individualist? No, he is the worst sort of conformist. Arrogant when up, pitiful when down.

    Well, to be honest, Calgary and even Edmonton have too much of all that as well.

    Enough of it. If self-interest rules, let there be self-interest, without moral judgement attached.

    Stiff Vegreville. I'd rather the jobs were here.
    Well said. Much in life just comes down to pure greed, narcissism and self interest.

    Personally though, I think we all gain to a point from diversifying not only across industries, but also geographically across different communities. Unfortunately, few here or in those communities would agree with that in the slightest.

  30. #30

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    The efficiency of doing things with economies of scale is beyond debate. I refuse utterly to hold anyone's hand through the process. Try pulling this discussion on your Industrial Organisation 407 professor and you will be given a zero.

    For government bureaucracy, any of the six largest cities are now on a completely different level than the towns of 6,000.

    This "Albertan" dream of "oh who cares if we take yet more from stupid old Edmonton" besides being repulsive to the core is diametricly ignorant of basic financial realities.

    You have been sold pork, my friends, and your votes have been appreciated by the guys with the golden pensions. Believe it.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  31. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    The efficiency of doing things with economies of scale is beyond debate. I refuse utterly to hold anyone's hand through the process. Try pulling this discussion on your Industrial Organisation 407 professor and you will be given a zero.

    For government bureaucracy, any of the six largest cities are now on a completely different level than the towns of 6,000.

    This "Albertan" dream of "oh who cares if we take yet more from stupid old Edmonton" besides being repulsive to the core is diametricly ignorant of basic financial realities.

    You have been sold pork, my friends, and your votes have been appreciated by the guys with the golden pensions. Believe it.
    There are many aspects to the world beyond the financial. Moreover, economies of scale don't fully describe successful, efficient and sustainable production systems. Additionally, the professor might prefer a discussion on the economies of flow and/or systems thinking rather than the same old, same old economies of scale approach where big and centralized is always better. I'd like to think that this move is more holistically driven and not just a move to cut costs or processing time.


    Something to skim over:

    Reinventing Scale: How to Escape the Size Trap
    http://www.strategy-business.com/art...8477?gko=304db



    And this:


    Six Counterintuitive Truths to Improve Service
    Rethinking success
    By Tripp Babbitt | 09/23/2011

    1. Costs are in flow, not activity or scale
    The biggest upset in economic history has to be encapsulated by the “Japanese Industrial Miracle.” The post-WWII world turned to the United States for almost all its manufacturing needs. The rest of the world, devastated by the war, gave the resource-rich and unscathed United States all the scale. So how was resource-poor Japan able to conquer the United States in manufacturing? Japan learned that manufacturing was not about economies of scale, but economies of flow.

    In service today, the prevailing thinking is that economies of scale still work. Wrong. Governments and service organizations perpetuate the myth. The functional separation of work into front and back offices is full of scale thinking. Passing the work back and forth increases costs.

    Shared services and outsourcing that are popular today are usually managing costs and activity. In outsourcing, a cheaper labor cost assumes that all demand is work to be done, and that flow matters little. The reality is we wind up outsourcing our waste, and flow is destroyed because the function outsourced is separated from the rest of the organization...

    http://m.qualitydigest.com/?ref=http...e-service.html
    Last edited by KC; 29-10-2016 at 09:17 PM.

  32. #32

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    Oh yeah, and opening the floodgates on VLTs is good because it creates jobs!


    #havesumkoolaid
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    As the region goes, Edmonton goes. We are not a world city, we are still a service depot for the smaller communities that harbour the primary resources. Edmonton could make huge political points in the region by playing this right...but it won't.
    Vegreville is not part of the metro region. At over 100 km away, it's too far a commute for most people. The immigration centre might as well have been in Kitscoty.

    And if you honestly expect the Mayor of Edmonton to stand up and say "no thanks, Minister McCallum, Edmonton doesn't need any more white collar jobs, please keep them in Vegreville" then you are seriously out to lunch. I'm sure you wouldn't be complaining if it was moving to Stony Plain or wherever you're living now.

    A departure from what you had to say about moving aerospace testing from Cold Lake to Ontario
    http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/showt...662#post762662

    In any case, it was brought up in the HOC on Friday:
    https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...ng-centre.html

    An interesting blog post about this.
    http://albertapolitics.ca/2016/10/lo...er-made-sense/
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander II View Post
    This is equivalent to 40,000 jobs to edmonton.

    You would think that it would be a very visible opportunity in vegreville, and if bilingualism is necessary for those jobs then Veg schools would have made French a priority, since they could probably count on 10 kids in every high school class eventually finding work there.
    The Town Manager of Vegreville said it was the equivalent of 3,400 jobs in Edmonton. For some context.

  35. #35

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    Small town jobs are NOT more important than big city jobs.

    We're talking about employing people for the sake of inefficiency. Ridiculous.

    Why not employ 30% more people in Vegreville in an 30% more productive role?

    There are industries that can work as well or even better in that kind of environment, but bureaucracy is not one of them.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  36. #36

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    RichardS. I too agree that moving the Passport Processing offices from Vegreville will be devastating for this smaller sized Alberta town. It's just too far for a daily commute so those being displaced will not have any option other than to move to Edmonton. Great for the Real Estate business and Edmonton's Property Tax base but a higher cost of living for those who want to retain their jobs. This may seem like "pay-back" by the Liberal Federal Government for a favour done to a Conservative Politician a few years ago but logically speaking a facility like this would be better in a large city like Edmonton, Red Deer or Calgary. Edmonton is probably the best choice with Canada Place currently being a half empty shell after being gutted of many of the Federal services we had for years. Either way, those in Ottawa will take delight in punishing a Conservative constituency.

  37. #37

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    The deciding factors are all well beyond our knowledge here, but I think people need to be wary of simplistic thinking in terms of always finding the best solution by moving to a larger centre. Follow that thinking and you might as well move all of Edmonton's bureaucracy down to Calgary to cojoin its large private sector bureaucracy.

    http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11f0027...013084-eng.pdf

  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by AAAAE View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander II View Post
    This is equivalent to 40,000 jobs to edmonton.

    You would think that it would be a very visible opportunity in vegreville, and if bilingualism is necessary for those jobs then Veg schools would have made French a priority, since they could probably count on 10 kids in every high school class eventually finding work there.
    The Town Manager of Vegreville said it was the equivalent of 3,400 jobs in Edmonton. For some context.
    Not too bad for them then. We've easily exceeded that with the oil price dip.

  39. #39

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    Was this facility just handling paperwork, or people too? If just paperwork then it doesn't really matter anymore where it's done. If people, then unfortunately a political decision that didn't make sense in the first place is now getting rightly reversed.
    I feel in no way entitled to your opinion...

  40. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    Was this facility just handling paperwork, or people too? If just paperwork then it doesn't really matter anymore where it's done. If people, then unfortunately a political decision that didn't make sense in the first place is now getting rightly reversed.
    I understand that it was a processing centre so likely just receiving passports and then connecting to various databases or agencies is my best guess.

  41. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Komorosky View Post
    RichardS. I too agree that moving the Passport Processing offices from Vegreville will be devastating for this smaller sized Alberta town. It's just too far for a daily commute so those being displaced will not have any option other than to move to Edmonton. Great for the Real Estate business and Edmonton's Property Tax base but a higher cost of living for those who want to retain their jobs. This may seem like "pay-back" by the Liberal Federal Government for a favour done to a Conservative Politician a few years ago but logically speaking a facility like this would be better in a large city like Edmonton, Red Deer or Calgary. Edmonton is probably the best choice with Canada Place currently being a half empty shell after being gutted of many of the Federal services we had for years. Either way, those in Ottawa will take delight in punishing a Conservative constituency.
    Putting it there was politics, removing it is plain sense at the very least. Politics too? Don't know, don't care, because again, it just makes sense.

    By the way, it's my understanding that Canada Place is completely full right now, and the government is using a number of other buildings now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    Was this facility just handling paperwork, or people too? If just paperwork then it doesn't really matter anymore where it's done. If people, then unfortunately a political decision that didn't make sense in the first place is now getting rightly reversed.
    Paperwork only, in one sense, but humans doing the jobs, and one thing they did say was recruitment was an issue.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  42. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Komorosky View Post
    RichardS. I too agree that moving the Passport Processing offices from Vegreville will be devastating for this smaller sized Alberta town. It's just too far for a daily commute so those being displaced will not have any option other than to move to Edmonton. Great for the Real Estate business and Edmonton's Property Tax base but a higher cost of living for those who want to retain their jobs. This may seem like "pay-back" by the Liberal Federal Government for a favour done to a Conservative Politician a few years ago but logically speaking a facility like this would be better in a large city like Edmonton, Red Deer or Calgary. Edmonton is probably the best choice with Canada Place currently being a half empty shell after being gutted of many of the Federal services we had for years. Either way, those in Ottawa will take delight in punishing a Conservative constituency.
    The key question here is diversification. I guess, according to some here, only Edmonton and the 4 other major markets are deserving of diversification and any federal "gifts". The rest of the province can jump in their Fords and Truck Off.

    Mornville, Drayton Valley, Leduc, Calmar, New Sarepta, Ponoka, Athabasca, St Paul, Westlock, Stony Plain...etc. Guess what? Other than farming, you get nothing! ...and for farming, we all will tell you just how much you suck.

    The logic here is one that is very, very, very dangerous. If you follow those jumping with glee at Vegreville's misfortune, you could extend the logic on this centre to move it anywhere. Why stop at Edmonton? In fact, to extend further, why have any federal jobs here other than whatever is absolutely necessary? If the key here is righting some "pork barrel politics", well then there is a lot of "righting" to do then. I don't think Edmonton will come out on the winning side of that thought process.

    Extended further, no Commonwealth Games in Edmonton, as in the world stage, we are a one horse hick town in the middle of nowhere compared to Toronto or Vancouver. No Olympics, Expos, conventions, film grants, transportation grants...anything that would be better for Edmonton at the expense of the taxpayer.

    We should also abolish telecommuting since Downtown needs all these jobs. Rural towns like Vegreville shouldn't even get internet...they're just a bunch of nyuck nyuck hillbillies that only vote Conservative.

    No. The reality here is that some on this forum and out there would rather cannibalize anyone and any town for the sake of Edmonton. That theme is why the region is wary of doing anything with Edmonton, and why Edmonton often finds itself ostracized. This isn't just Vegreville, the WCLC office in Stettler is another that could be "righted". AGLC in St Albert. And hey...if Calgary is the more diverse centre and has been killed by the downturn more than Edmonton, why not send more down there!

    To use the excuse of "righting a wrong" opens Edmonton up for the exact same conversation. That's been the point. These 280 jobs won't make or break Edmonton, or Edmonton's downtown. Edmonton gains more by standing up for their regional partners rather than cannibalizing them, whether it is done intentionally or as a net result of another's decision.
    Onward and upward

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Komorosky View Post
    RichardS. I too agree that moving the Passport Processing offices from Vegreville will be devastating for this smaller sized Alberta town. It's just too far for a daily commute so those being displaced will not have any option other than to move to Edmonton. Great for the Real Estate business and Edmonton's Property Tax base but a higher cost of living for those who want to retain their jobs. This may seem like "pay-back" by the Liberal Federal Government for a favour done to a Conservative Politician a few years ago but logically speaking a facility like this would be better in a large city like Edmonton, Red Deer or Calgary. Edmonton is probably the best choice with Canada Place currently being a half empty shell after being gutted of many of the Federal services we had for years. Either way, those in Ottawa will take delight in punishing a Conservative constituency.
    The key question here is diversification. I guess, according to some here, only Edmonton and the 4 other major markets are deserving of diversification and any federal "gifts". The rest of the province can jump in their Fords and Truck Off.

    Mornville, Drayton Valley, Leduc, Calmar, New Sarepta, Ponoka, Athabasca, St Paul, Westlock, Stony Plain...etc. Guess what? Other than farming, you get nothing! ...and for farming, we all will tell you just how much you suck.

    The logic here is one that is very, very, very dangerous. If you follow those jumping with glee at Vegreville's misfortune, you could extend the logic on this centre to move it anywhere. Why stop at Edmonton? In fact, to extend further, why have any federal jobs here other than whatever is absolutely necessary? If the key here is righting some "pork barrel politics", well then there is a lot of "righting" to do then. I don't think Edmonton will come out on the winning side of that thought process.

    Extended further, no Commonwealth Games in Edmonton, as in the world stage, we are a one horse hick town in the middle of nowhere compared to Toronto or Vancouver. No Olympics, Expos, conventions, film grants, transportation grants...anything that would be better for Edmonton at the expense of the taxpayer.

    We should also abolish telecommuting since Downtown needs all these jobs. Rural towns like Vegreville shouldn't even get internet...they're just a bunch of nyuck nyuck hillbillies that only vote Conservative.

    No. The reality here is that some on this forum and out there would rather cannibalize anyone and any town for the sake of Edmonton. That theme is why the region is wary of doing anything with Edmonton, and why Edmonton often finds itself ostracized. This isn't just Vegreville, the WCLC office in Stettler is another that could be "righted". AGLC in St Albert. And hey...if Calgary is the more diverse centre and has been killed by the downturn more than Edmonton, why not send more down there!

    To use the excuse of "righting a wrong" opens Edmonton up for the exact same conversation. That's been the point. These 280 jobs won't make or break Edmonton, or Edmonton's downtown. Edmonton gains more by standing up for their regional partners rather than cannibalizing them, whether it is done intentionally or as a net result of another's decision.
    Personally, I think having some government jobs in smaller centres is a good idea because it reduces the incidence of anti-government conspiracy theories among the rural population.

  44. #44

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    Vegreville is the perfect location for the government funded methane recovery plant they've got. That creates jobs, that comes from tax dollars, that doesn't waste money, and that doesn't make sense in Edmonton. Other things make sense in Vegreville too.

    This didn't.

    There is no need to apologise for rationality. It is not an "anti-team-C" conspiracy. It is in the best interests of real taxpayers nationwide.

    And it isn't only me that thinks this doesn't make sense. Actually, you know what? I don't matter one bit. Who matters is all the talented potential bureaucrats that won't move there no matter how much of your "small town lifestyle" you try to shove down their throats. If it isn't their thing, you're not going to convince them.

    We don't need to pretend to be naive. Overpaying for free agents isn't limited to the Oilers pre-Rogers Place. People with transferable skills are actually real, valuable, financially measurable, and in demand around the globe. And they make their own choices from their own set of options.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  45. #45

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    Read your post JayBee. Read it well.

    This isn't some "team C" thing - your bias and hypocrisy is showing. If Team C did this move, I'd bet you'd use it to bash yet another bad move punishing the little guy by team C.

    "Team L" and "Team N" do the same thing - move things to areas that they get support. That notwithstanding, the question is pulling an established centre out when the payback is minimal. Would you be so happy if Team L moved this to Winnipeg? This is just a processing centre...

    I promise to play your words back at you when the next company, business, or industry shuns Edmonton for Vancouver, Calgary, or Toronto. The next time some other politician slams Edmonton...I'll just cut and paste your response.

    ...because remember, we are a one horse town to so many others. You bring up the Oilers...yup...a building isn't going to replace the higher US dollar, the huge travel requirements, the weather, and the market in offshoots (advertising, business opportunities, taxation). Recruitment for Edmonton is just as bad. I still call Edmonton the "big Vegreville" or "Vegreville that grew" because there are many parallels...to Toronto and New York, we may as well be. It is the perfect metaphor.

    You, and your alleged "many others", can simply keep quiet the next time we're snubbed, overlooked, or downsized. Better yet, take a short drive east.
    Onward and upward

  46. #46

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    ^ your failure to get the point doesn't make me a hypocrite. Imagine what you want, but reading is also an option.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  47. #47

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    Oh, I get your pious point.

    Remember JayBee. Remember your words. Remember them well.

    We aren't that different from Vegreville.
    Onward and upward

  48. #48

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    No, Richard, you don't.

    If you did you'd be threatening me more like:

    Quote Originally Posted by written by JayBee in his perceived style of RichardS
    You'll eat those words, JayBee, next time you condemn bureaucratic positions being moved from places that struggle to attract and retain bureaucrats! You'll eat those words, I swear!
    Last edited by JayBee; 31-10-2016 at 07:27 AM. Reason: ambiguous attribution of text in quote box
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  49. #49

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    Yup. Good move. Alter the quote to fit your needs!

    I needed a good morning laugh. Edmonton struggles to recruit bureaucrats too!

    #WeareVegreville.
    Onward and upward

  50. #50

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    I didn't alter the quote, I wrote it for you as a suggestion based on how you seem to want to be seen.

    All the fire and brimstone and Edmonton-directed-bile in any potential universe won't make water run uphill, Richard.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  51. #51

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    Love it JayBee!!!!

    The amazing two faces seen in this thread is so eye opening it is beautifully sad. How quick many here forget what being on the other side feels like.

    You just keep making my point for me.
    Onward and upward

  52. #52

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    ^ Turn up your nose and refuse to read whatever you want.

    I don't need to repeat myself.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post
    Well Top_Dawg knew a poodle who car pooled out there with three other hens even three years ago.

    Probly still do.

    Holy fuq.

    Can you imagine being in that fuq'n vehicle with those magpies for an hour-and-a-half each way every day.

    ........................then having to work with them as well.



    Yeah, no $hit.


    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    These 280 jobs won't make or break Edmonton, or Edmonton's downtown. Edmonton gains more by standing up for their regional partners rather than cannibalizing them, whether it is done intentionally or as a net result of another's decision.
    Most salient comment in this thread.

    Top_Dawg is hardly surprised, but it just highlights yet one more subject the CofE cabbageheads never quite grasped.

  54. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post
    Well Top_Dawg knew a poodle who car pooled out there with three other hens even three years ago.

    Probly still do.

    Holy fuq.

    Can you imagine being in that fuq'n vehicle with those magpies for an hour-and-a-half each way every day.

    ........................then having to work with them as well.



    Yeah, no $hit.


    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    These 280 jobs won't make or break Edmonton, or Edmonton's downtown. Edmonton gains more by standing up for their regional partners rather than cannibalizing them, whether it is done intentionally or as a net result of another's decision.
    Most salient comment in this thread.

    Top_Dawg is hardly surprised, but it just highlights yet one more subject the CofE cabbageheads never quite grasped.
    Did you live here in the 1990's? There were many jobs that were moved from Edmonton to elsewhere in the province and who else stood up for Edmonton then? I know bashing Edmonton is a favorite past time of some people in rural Alberta and elsewhere in the province. I really wish they would get over it and get a new hobby.

    As for regional partners, while I appreciate the need for cooperation, I think Vegreville might be outside of that what is generally considered to metro Edmonton.

  55. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by ralph60 View Post
    This is a Liberal federal government, they will screw a town, uproot some 250 people and pay to move them. They're only Albertans, do you think anybody in Ottawa gives a flying leap?
    But, the way this will probably play out is the Liberals will reverse their decision and try to blame Harper for it.
    Rural / small towns, don't vote Liberal, so no big surprise. I always thought its strange the center is there (a political decision back in the day re Don Mazankowski), but seems pretty mean to take it away now. This won't be a big deal for Edmonton, but devastating for a small Alberta town. Feel for Vegerville on this one, this is a tough break for them
    Last edited by moahunter; 31-10-2016 at 02:50 PM.

  56. #56

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    ^^ most salient comment in this whole thread.

    Really hard to say how our supposed "allies" stood up for us in the 1990s.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post
    Well Top_Dawg knew a poodle who car pooled out there with three other hens even three years ago.

    Probly still do.

    Holy fuq.

    Can you imagine being in that fuq'n vehicle with those magpies for an hour-and-a-half each way every day.

    ........................then having to work with them as well.



    Yeah, no $hit.


    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    These 280 jobs won't make or break Edmonton, or Edmonton's downtown. Edmonton gains more by standing up for their regional partners rather than cannibalizing them, whether it is done intentionally or as a net result of another's decision.
    Most salient comment in this thread.

    Top_Dawg is hardly surprised, but it just highlights yet one more subject the CofE cabbageheads never quite grasped.
    I ask again, what exactly is the City of Edmonton supposed to do about it? Say "no thanks, we don't want any new jobs moving from outside the metro area"? And it's not like they have much of a say in this anyway, it's a federal decision on a federal office.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  58. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    ^^ most salient comment in this whole thread.

    Really hard to say how our supposed "allies" stood up for us in the 1990s.
    Those supposed allies are usually just "legal entities" like cities, towns, companies, with ever changing people at the helm. You're lucky if you get bit of institutional memory let alone any inter-jurisdictional loyalty.

    I recall the natural gas producers pushing for deregulation at one point and then a few years later pushing for regulation (on pricing) . Different people, different agendas, different conditions, same industry.
    Last edited by KC; 31-10-2016 at 02:51 PM.

  59. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    I ask again, what exactly is the City of Edmonton supposed to do about it? Say "no thanks, we don't want any new jobs moving from outside the metro area"? And it's not like they have much of a say in this anyway, it's a federal decision on a federal office.
    I think the City could say something, Iveson could say, "hey, on behalf of our neighbor, we'd appreciate it if you reconsidered this". Even if wasn't successful, it would go a long way towards being a leader in the "Capital region" / "Northern Alberta".

  60. #60

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    ^ ridiculous as usual.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  61. #61

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    ^Edmonton and Calgary both benefit enormously from small towns / people moving from, caring about them and the few opportunities they have, doesn't make you ridiculous, it makes you human.

    “We’re going to have to do a lot of lobbying. This is wrong. Two hundred people more in Edmonton is going to make what difference?”

    The centre opened in 1994 as what has been described as a political gift from former Progressive Conservative deputy prime minister Don Mazankowski, the area’s longtime MP.

    Current Conservative MP Shannon Stubbs said employees she has talked to are upset.

    “Many of the families are farm families, so relocation is not possible. They are very concerned about their futures and just shocked they have been blindsided by the decision.”

    She wants Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Minister John McCallum to intervene.

    “The minister needs to hit the pause button and consult and find out what’s happening.”
    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...gration-office

  62. #62
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    This is a stupid move on the dept of Immigration. A colleague of mine, his wife works for the department of immigration in Saint Albert. She said as well, its a stupid proposal.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  63. #63

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    ^^ so bureaucracy belongs in agricultural/highway towns whether bureaucrats can be recruited there or not, at any cost to the taxpayers or delay to the public whom they serve.


    Okay, that's not ridiculous?

    I wonder what is.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  64. #64

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    ^By that line of logic you could argue all white collar / business jobs should move to Calgary, which has more office buildings (many of which are empty), and all trades jobs should move to Edmonton (which has more industry). All Federal government jobs outside of servicing the local population, like immigration, should move to Ottawa. Doing otherwise would be ridiculous wouldn't it?

  65. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg
    These 280 jobs won't make or break Edmonton, or Edmonton's downtown. Edmonton gains more by standing up for their regional partners rather than cannibalizing them, whether it is done intentionally or as a net result of another's decision.
    Most salient comment in this thread.

    Top_Dawg is hardly surprised, but it just highlights yet one more subject the CofE cabbageheads never quite grasped.
    Did you live here in the 1990's? There were many jobs that were moved from Edmonton to elsewhere in the province and who else stood up for Edmonton then? I know bashing Edmonton is a favorite past time of some people in rural Alberta and elsewhere in the province. I really wish they would get over it and get a new hobby.

    As for regional partners, while I appreciate the need for cooperation, I think Vegreville might be outside of that what is generally considered to metro Edmonton.
    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    ^^ most salient comment in this whole thread.

    Really hard to say how our supposed "allies" stood up for us in the 1990s.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post

    I ask again, what exactly is the City of Edmonton supposed to do about it? Say "no thanks, we don't want any new jobs moving from outside the metro area"? And it's not like they have much of a say in this anyway, it's a federal decision on a federal office.
    So it's really that hard for you to grasp with the root moral here is?

    Edmonton did get a drain in the 1990s. I lived here, and I was one of the people drained away from here. So don't throw this were you here in the 1990s comment my way. I also was not that far removed from my life in rural Alberta, and I knew how that part of the world was hurting then. If you think Edmonton had a bad, try Warburg, Millet, Drayton Valley, New Sarepta, Stony Plain, Ponoka...

    The reality is, just like the idea that this was poorly placed in 1994, the world has changed drastically. This is 2016. Telecommuting is the norm. Alberta's medium and smaller cities and towns have incredibly good high-speed Internet access. Vegreville is on the major east-west transportation corridor known as the TransCanada Highway. This highway is allegedly the best route to go back and forth in the country. It is situated close to a major urban centre. In 2016, Vegreville is hardly in the middle of nowhere anymore. Your whole bias about a bunch of rural Hicks in a small town with nothing better to do than to pick their noses and ranch shows just how much of a bigot some of you became.

    You don't get the juxtaposition of Edmonton as the hick town when it comes to the national and international conversations we have. Hands flail, hands wring, tears are shed, anger is spouted when Edmonton doesn't get little gifts from the Federal Government where we want to play in the league we expect to play in. Yet, after 22 years in a small town, a government agency that is become more embedded in the local economy than not is suddenly and unexpectedly pulled away, the people here go nana na nana...you suck. You shouldn't have had this in the first place. It was wrong. Now we're righting the wrong.

    I find it funny that people here whine and complain that Edmonton deserves a say, then when we have our chance to have a say, we abdicate that say to an excuse of it's just the federal government what can we do?

    It's about being a capital city, not just being called a capital city. Yes, the city could say, "we appreciate the fact that you want to keep the jobs in Alberta. We appreciate the fact that you want to put them here in Edmonton. While we will gladly host your department here, we also understand how this will hurt Vegreville. We know we're their major centre for shopping and entertainment, and we know that a healthy Vegreville helps make a healthy Edmonton. If this transition is something that has to be done, we'd like to work with you to see what can be put in Vegreville in its place." See, a grown-up mature, adult, proud capital city standing up for its partners. Even just these words would help solidify the regional agreement that people are trying to put forth now instead of thinking it's just a way for Edmonton to get control of everything.

    It's called putting on the big daddy pants and the big mommy pants and looking past the slights of 1990. Allegedly the government is different at both the provincial and the federal level, and some of my liberal forum cohorts say a new dawn is arrived. Yet you want to still be held by the shackles of 1990. Well, get over it.

    Being a capital city is somewhat like being a parent – sometimes you go take one for the kids.
    Onward and upward

  66. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^By that line of logic you could argue all white collar / business jobs should move to Calgary, which has more office buildings (many of which are empty), and all trades jobs should move to Edmonton (which has more industry). All Federal government jobs outside of servicing the local population, like immigration, should move to Ottawa. Doing otherwise would be ridiculous wouldn't it?
    There is probably more grey in the world than black and white here. The Federal government was having trouble recruiting staff and there was no reason to keep the office there anymore (MP who moved it there is long retired and the office lease is now up), so they decided to move it to where it might make more sense and it might be easier to find the staff.

  67. #67

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    But as mentioned earlier, if the goal is to recruit multilingual staff, why not move this to Toronto, Vancouver, Ottawa, Montréal…

    You want to talk about a pool of available multilingual resources in an area where the majority of immigration happens? I just gave you four good examples...
    Onward and upward

  68. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg
    These 280 jobs won't make or break Edmonton, or Edmonton's downtown. Edmonton gains more by standing up for their regional partners rather than cannibalizing them, whether it is done intentionally or as a net result of another's decision.
    Most salient comment in this thread.

    Top_Dawg is hardly surprised, but it just highlights yet one more subject the CofE cabbageheads never quite grasped.
    Did you live here in the 1990's? There were many jobs that were moved from Edmonton to elsewhere in the province and who else stood up for Edmonton then? I know bashing Edmonton is a favorite past time of some people in rural Alberta and elsewhere in the province. I really wish they would get over it and get a new hobby.

    As for regional partners, while I appreciate the need for cooperation, I think Vegreville might be outside of that what is generally considered to metro Edmonton.
    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    ^^ most salient comment in this whole thread.

    Really hard to say how our supposed "allies" stood up for us in the 1990s.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post

    I ask again, what exactly is the City of Edmonton supposed to do about it? Say "no thanks, we don't want any new jobs moving from outside the metro area"? And it's not like they have much of a say in this anyway, it's a federal decision on a federal office.
    So it's really that hard for you to grasp with the root moral here is?

    Edmonton did get a drain in the 1990s. I lived here, and I was one of the people drained away from here. So don't throw this were you here in the 1990s comment my way. I also was not that far removed from my life in rural Alberta, and I knew how that part of the world was hurting then. If you think Edmonton had a bad, try Warburg, Millet, Drayton Valley, New Sarepta, Stony Plain, Ponoka...

    The reality is, just like the idea that this was poorly placed in 1994, the world has changed drastically. This is 2016. Telecommuting is the norm. Alberta's medium and smaller cities and towns have incredibly good high-speed Internet access. Vegreville is on the major east-west transportation corridor known as the TransCanada Highway. This highway is allegedly the best route to go back and forth in the country. It is situated close to a major urban centre. In 2016, Vegreville is hardly in the middle of nowhere anymore. Your whole bias about a bunch of rural Hicks in a small town with nothing better to do than to pick their noses and ranch shows just how much of a bigot some of you became.

    You don't get the juxtaposition of Edmonton as the hick town when it comes to the national and international conversations we have. Hands flail, hands wring, tears are shed, anger is spouted when Edmonton doesn't get little gifts from the Federal Government where we want to play in the league we expect to play in. Yet, after 22 years in a small town, a government agency that is become more embedded in the local economy than not is suddenly and unexpectedly pulled away, the people here go nana na nana...you suck.

    I find it funny that people here whine and complain that Edmonton deserves a say, then when we have our chance to have a say, we abdicate that say to an excuse of it's just the federal government what can we do?

    It's about being a capital city, not just being called a capital city. Yes, the city could say, "we appreciate the fact that you want to keep the jobs in Alberta. We appreciate the fact that you want to put them here in Edmonton. While we will gladly host your department here, we also understand how this will hurt Vegreville. We know we're their major centre for shopping and entertainment, and we know that a healthy Vegreville helps make a healthy Edmonton. If this transition is something that has to be done, we'd like to work with you to see what can be put in Vegreville in its place." See, a grown-up mature, adult, proud capital city standing up for its partners. Even just these words would help solidify the regional agreement that people are trying to put forth now instead of thinking it's just a way for Edmonton to get control of everything.

    It's called putting on the big daddy pants and the big mommy pants and looking past the slights of 1990. Allegedly the government is different at both the provincial and the federal level, and some of my liberal forum cohorts say a new dawn is arrived. Yet you want to still be held by the shackles of 1990. Well, get over it.

    Being a capital city is somewhat like being a parent – sometimes you go take one for the kids.
    0

    Yes, Edmonton is the capital city and that is one of the favorite arguments of those that always want us to give up something or do something that is not in our interest. Somehow we are always expected to act and be better than everyone else - it is a double standard. I bet if those jobs moved to Calgary there would not be a peep anywhere in the media (except maybe in the local Vegreville newspaper), but because it is Edmonton the whining will go on for months. There is a lack of respect in some parts of Alberta for Edmonton and that is its own problem and I bring up the history only to point out we have often been on the short end of things and not had anyone stand up for us.

    In this case, it was a Federal decision and whether you like it or not, they seem to have some logical reasons for it. Yes, it really is not good news for Vegreville, but we do not need to be martyrs here.

  69. #69

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    Nope.

    You forget, unless you forgot the 1990's, a lot of Edmonton's issues were self inflicted...and still are. When I left, it was more to do with the local political whining, demanding, bellyaching, and general silliness so I took a better opportunity and ran...and only came back to hope to spread what I had learned.

    Yes, if you want the prestige of the Capital City moniker, it comes with some expectations. If you want to, as we did in the 1990's, demand we get things because we ARE THE CAPTIAL CITY, then you cannot be presented an opportunity to act like one, turn your back, get called out on it, and then lament double standard. Sorry, the expectation comes with the territory.

    Live in Calgary for a bit. They see things rather differently. And sorry, part of the Capital City moniker comes with some unfortunate bashing. Olympia gets it. Eugene gets it. Victoria gets it. Regina gets it. ...

    Or, we can stick our heads in our own derrieres, pretend it smells like roses, and whine that it is our turn.

    Like I've said before...people will remember.
    Onward and upward

  70. #70

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    RichardS, I can't even begin to thank you for your many thorough & thoughtful posts on this issue.

    (mostly cos we've got no thanks button. I kid, I kid)
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  71. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Nope.

    You forget, unless you forgot the 1990's, a lot of Edmonton's issues were self inflicted...and still are.

    Yes, if you want the prestige of the Capital City moniker, it comes with some expectations. If you want to, as we did in the 1990's, demand we get things because we ARE THE CAPTIAL CITY, then you cannot be presented an opportunity to act like one, turn your back, get called out on it, and then lament double standard. Sorry, the expectation comes with the territory.

    Live in Calgary for a bit. They see things rather differently. And sorry, part of the Capital City moniker comes with some unfortunate bashing. Olympia gets it. Eugene gets it. Victoria gets it. Regina gets it. ...

    Or, we can stick our heads in our own derrieres, pretend it smells like roses, and whine that it is our turn.

    Like I've said before...people will remember.
    There are some people in other parts of Alberta that for whatever reason(s) have a grudge against or dislike Edmonton. If you think by saying no to these jobs will make that all go away and make them love Edmonton, I think you are very sadly mistaken.

    I don't recall demanding things for Edmonton in the 1990's. I think at the time it was about the government and others not moving things away from here. This city bore the brunt of the cuts at that time which some elsewhere in Alberta seemed gleeful about.

    In this case it is not Edmonton's fault that the Federal government made the decision they did. The office probably shouldn't have been there in the first place, but they had a powerful MP at the time and got something at the time.

    I am not up on the news in Olympia, Eugene or Victoria, so when did the other Capital Cities you mentioned actually refuse jobs?

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    But as mentioned earlier, if the goal is to recruit multilingual staff, why not move this to Toronto, Vancouver, Ottawa, Montréal…

    You want to talk about a pool of available multilingual resources in an area where the majority of immigration happens? I just gave you four good examples...
    Those Provinces have their own processing offices anyway.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  73. #73

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    I started C2E because of some of the negative stereotypes that arise about Edmonton. You don't need to lecture me on that. I still was living in Seattle when I fired the predecessor up.

    If you don't recall Edmonton pounding its feet about not getting office A or office B, screaming about flights while not making a firm decision on an airport, and then creating a business climate so hostile even Shaw left, you weren't here in the 1990's. I even remember that office rent article about how Edmonton was such a steal in the office space world...and it made the San Francisco papers as a comparison. Talk about embarrassing...

    Everyone else in Alberta was not gleeful at the cuts to public services. It hit the WHOLE PROVINCE hard.

    So, by your (and other's logic), if a powerful politician moved something somewhere at the time, it should be righted in the future? OK...would you seriously like me to expand on that and see how it would punish Edmonton, and Alberta?

    Ever notice that the capital cities are often a lot smaller than the business centres? Hint Hint...they put the business centres in areas unfettered by politics. Toronto is an exception, but that's more than likely because Ottawa is the national capital. Capital Cities often distribute the job market throughout the province or state as centralizing everything in one spot often leads to the underlying issue I am talking about...what does the rest of the province get if we keep or put everything here?

    This isn't a major head office or thousands of jobs that makes a huge blip in our employment radar. The ICE district won't fail or succeed because of this. This is not CN's head office. If this was a major competition or we landed something relocating from Vancouver or Minneapolis, I'd be thrilled. If we brought some jobs back from Calgary, I'd be happy. But this is a non descript, non customer facing processing centre that helps Vegreville diversify with some white collar employment. If you actually took the time to read my proposed CoE response, you'd see that it even opens the door to the foregone conclusion you present, but says we can talk about it. I did not say Edmonton flat out refuses jobs!!! My goodness....
    Onward and upward

  74. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post

    Those Provinces have their own processing offices anyway.

    True. But if this is about efficiencies, they could consolidate even more.

    ...and honestly, if this is about a provincial level processing centre vice a national processing centre...something I was not too sure about...

    ...if this is seriously something that processes only for this prairie region...it is even more mystifying that this move is being made as abruptly as it is...
    Onward and upward

  75. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post

    Those Provinces have their own processing offices anyway.

    True. But if this is about efficiencies, they could consolidate even more.

    ...and honestly, if this is about a provincial level processing centre vice a national processing centre...something I was not too sure about...

    ...if this is seriously something that processes only for this prairie region...it is even more mystifying that this move is being made as abruptly as it is...
    I think it is either a regional or provincial office. The thing about efficiencies - if it is too small, it is not efficient, if it is too large it is not efficient. I think the mistake the PC's made with health authorities was in assuming bigger would always be more efficient and it wasn't.

    I think the abruptness arose because the lease for the space came up and that prompted someone to think about whether the location made sense.

    It's kind of funny how some Alberta politicians are the first to criticize those in the east when the government puts something there, but I guess rural Alberta politicians like their pork too.

  76. #76
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    These people are not losing their jobs per se`, they'll just have to travel 3 hours to get too them. If that's correct?
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    It's about being a capital city, not just being called a capital city. Yes, the city could say, "we appreciate the fact that you want to keep the jobs in Alberta. We appreciate the fact that you want to put them here in Edmonton. While we will gladly host your department here, we also understand how this will hurt Vegreville. We know we're their major centre for shopping and entertainment, and we know that a healthy Vegreville helps make a healthy Edmonton. If this transition is something that has to be done, we'd like to work with you to see what can be put in Vegreville in its place." See, a grown-up mature, adult, proud capital city standing up for its partners. Even just these words would help solidify the regional agreement that people are trying to put forth now instead of thinking it's just a way for Edmonton to get control of everything.

    It's called putting on the big daddy pants and the big mommy pants and looking past the slights of 1990. Allegedly the government is different at both the provincial and the federal level, and some of my liberal forum cohorts say a new dawn is arrived. Yet you want to still be held by the shackles of 1990. Well, get over it.

    Being a capital city is somewhat like being a parent – sometimes you go take one for the kids.
    Are you going to show up at City Hall and demand this action to the Mayor and City Council?
    Are you going to meet with the Liberal MPs Boissonnault and Sohi, one of whom is a powerful cabinet minister in the Trudeau government?

    I would hate to bear witness to the irony of the founder of Connect2Edmonton starting up an Envision Edmonton style group c/w protests, soundbites and petitions over this. Hope it doesn't come to that.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  78. #78

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    Vegreville is part of our hinterland, our service area. They are our neighbours. They shop here and study here, and see doctors here. I would prefer that we treat them with respect so that they are happy to keep doing so.

    If we're jerks to them we just might create a hinterland full if people as determined not to support Edmonton's services as some here are to avoid Calgary's airport.

    I want to see our big towns and small cities thrive. I have my own ideas on how maybe they should thrive differently, but I cannot unreservedly celebrate a decision with such a significant negative impact. Both here and in Vegreville we're talking about people, not statistics.

    So to those public servants who will make a new home in Edmonton, welcome.

    And to those left behind; I'm sorry.
    There can only be one.

  79. #79
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    i have been following this with interest, in no small part because i can appreciate the opinions being put forward by both "sides" in the discussion. having said that, i simply don't have enough information to join either side other than on an emotional basis and these things should take personal impacts into consideration but still shouldn't be emotional decisions.

    i don't know how big the space involved is or how big it should be.

    of the 230 that work there, i have no idea how many live in vegreville as opposed to commuting from fort saskatchewan or strathcona or tofield or ryley or lamont or mundare. is the impact the same on all 230 or would half of them actually be looking forward to a more accessible more central place of employment?

    i don't know if the space involved meets current federal requirements for their employees but understand that employees in vegreville should be entitled to the same quality of workspace than their peers elsewhere in the province/country. and i understand the costs of doing that for both the landlord and the tenant and have no idea if it's either possible or financially feasible.

    one of the things that was noted was lack of opportunity for advancement as well as difficulty recruiting.

    one of the things also noted was that relocation would negatively impact those on area farms and/or ranches who now rely on this second source of income. that would seem to me to be a bigger problem ensuring adequate farm and ranch income to those employed there than the circumstances being tabled here as a problem.

    this seems to be under discussion as support for or proof of previously held opinions and while i can respect that, i'm just not yet able to identify either side as right or wrong other than both sides being passionately involved in the process and the outcome which makes them both right regardless of the final outcome.
    Last edited by kcantor; 31-10-2016 at 06:07 PM.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  80. #80

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    I will take a different and harsher tack than KCantor.

    I know for a fact that if the situation were entirely reversed, if a federal agency were being moved from Edmonton to Vegreville, there would overwhelmingly be two kinds of reaction.

    First, the political provocators on here would be happy or otherwise, depending which party they are provoking for, but they would express it more or less cautiously depending on how deep their surface veneer of civility goes. But because their words are put into their mouths for and by the party they support, they can be ignored altogether.

    Secondly, many Edmonton boosters, including most of the voices who have spoken no matter how cautiously in favor of poor little Vegreville in this thread, would be voicing their dismay -- or equally likely, predictably bitter Canadian-style irony. (Our passive agressiveness shows us up every time. That's how we give ourselves away abroad.)

    The alternative reaction -- in support of Vegreville -- would come from two or three people and be evenly divided between true-Albertans and one or two people of shocking integrity I will not name, but everyone knows who they are.

    I am not describing these reactions to score points against members of this forum. This forum represents pretty completely the world out there.

    Nonetheless it's a certainty, not a moral certainty but a certainty, that the vast reaction would be overwhelmingly negative.

    And so I would urge everyone who would be negative in the opposite case to accept being positive here.

    We are not Vegreville. Really we are not. Nor do we rule Vegreville, much as some people may think otherwise.
    Last edited by AShetsen; 31-10-2016 at 06:37 PM.

  81. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    This forum represents pretty completely the world out there.
    Oh Lord very unlikely. In the real world there are people who will actually admit what they don't know about rather than proffering (and fighting over) an opinion on the basis of a few sentences someone else wrote.

    Anyone actually from Vegreville here?
    I feel in no way entitled to your opinion...

  82. #82

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    I disagree, Spudly, -- for people react to job moves with their gut, whether or not the jobs are theirs.

  83. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    I disagree, Spudly, -- for people react to job moves with their gut, whether or not the jobs are theirs.
    I tried to reply, but I don't see how "react with their gut" matters in any way here. So what? It's a sign of what matters to folks on chatterboards, but most people aren't on them. There are, by my estimate, about 30 regular contributors here, 50 tops. Out of a city of a million. There's no reason to think that this chatter is indicative of anything but this board. Folks here would totally crap on a sample size of only 50.
    I feel in no way entitled to your opinion...

  84. #84

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    We're not being jerks at all. At least not those of us in favour of this move.




    • Should we work with Vegreville?


    • Yes.



    but...

    • Should Vegreville work with us?


    Oh I don't know, maybe they should try to compete against us to the detriment of the entire Country. Great ******* idea.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  85. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    And so I would urge everyone who would be negative in the opposite case to accept being positive here.
    So, if I would have been negative about 200 jobs moving from Edmonton to Vegerville, I should be positive about 200 jobs moving from Vegreville to Edmonton? How about instead being rational / consistent, and having some feelings for the people who will be moved (in either scenario)? I personally don't think it ever made much sense to put this center in Vegreville (arguably it doesn't make sense to be in Alberta at all, as its a national processing center), but it is there, and it has become an important part of their community. I have stopped a few times in Vegreville, stared at the egg (its actually quite cool re the maths / computer history of the parts to make it - has its own Wikipedia page), visited the Ukranian village. Its not a big town, like a lot of rural town's in Alberta its struggling to survive. This is a kick in the teeth for them, I think its a little sad people are gloating about it. I can understand the economic reasons it might make sense to do this, but I think sometimes, especially when its a government decision that was made a while back that has had an ongoing impact, its worth considering all the impacts, including the societal ones this will have on the town, and the costs associated with those.
    Last edited by moahunter; 01-11-2016 at 12:04 PM. Reason: Spelling Vegreville

  86. #86

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    You are no RichardS, moahunter. Not even close. Go back to agitating for Trump.

    I deny your right to speak for the people affected by this move. Don't pretend you are one of them.
    Last edited by AShetsen; 01-11-2016 at 12:08 PM.

  87. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    You are no RichardS, moahunter. Not even close.
    I have never pretended to be, but I'm quite happy to point out a very illogical / partisan biased line of thought when I see it. We are all Albertans, what comes around goes around.

  88. #88

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    Vegreville is/was a national processing centre for many things, some of them unique to just the one processing centre. There are other processing centres for immigration, like Sydney NS, Ottawa ON & Mississauga ON, but there's not 100% overlap between them. Most focus on a set of tasks/topics rather than the whole.

    http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/informa...vegreville.asp

    (I know this as I've got immigration applications in the pipeline for my wife).
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  89. #89

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    ^I've sent immigration stuff to Vegreville as well (its partly why I made a point of stopping in the town when driving past, curiosity, as you need to detour off the highway, unlike Lloyd).
    Last edited by moahunter; 01-11-2016 at 12:16 PM. Reason: keep flipping the e and r

  90. #90

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    "feelings for the people who will be moved"

    Ha, like "elation", "joy", "welcoming"? Or do you mean the few in the position for over two years?
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    And so I would urge everyone who would be negative in the opposite case to accept being positive here.
    So, if I would have been negative about 200 jobs moving from Edmonton to Vegerville, I should be positive about 200 jobs moving from Vegreville to Edmonton? How about instead being rational / consistent, and having some feelings for the people who will be moved (in either scenario)? I personally don't think it ever made much sense to put this center in Vegreville (arguably it doesn't make sense to be in Alberta at all, as its a national processing center), but it is there, and it has become an important part of their community. I have stopped a few times in Vegreville, stared at the egg (its actually quite cool re the maths / computer history of the parts to make it - has its own Wikipedia page), visited the Ukranian village. Its not a big town, like a lot of rural town's in Alberta its struggling to survive. This is a kick in the teeth for them, I think its a little sad people are gloating about it. I can understand the economic reasons it might make sense to do this, but I think sometimes, especially when its a government decision that was made a while back that has had an ongoing impact, its worth considering all the impacts, including the societal ones this will have on the town, and the costs associated with those.
    i thought it was 230 jobs, not 200?

    or do you know something not otherwise disclosed to date?

    and, if so, how about telling us not just where the 230 - or 200 - desks are but where the replacement desks are going to be and where the people working in them commute from.

    if 100% of those employees live in vegreville, the impact will be much different than if 15% of them live in vegreville and area while the other 85% live in fort saskatchewan and strathcona and will see their commuting times halved by this decision.

    until questions like those can be answered, everything here is pretty much blowing smoke.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  92. #92

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    ^my bad, I missed an "abouuuut". Even if they aren't living right in Vegerville, it is still an impact on the town, they still spend their money there, and the contractors who maintain that building, it still causes the odd person like me to divert of the road (having sent some immigration stuff there in the past). The processing center is a source of pride for the town.
    Last edited by moahunter; 01-11-2016 at 12:28 PM.

  93. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    "feelings for the people who will be moved"

    Ha, like "elation", "joy", "welcoming"? Or do you mean the few in the position for over two years?
    If Ashsteen had suggested, the reverse had happened, I'm quite sure you wouldn't have been in Vegreville welcoming the newcomers with elation and joy. In fairness, the reverse wouldn't, IMO, have anywhere near the same impact, given the relative importance of this to the business communities, re population. The equivalent, re relative impact, "might" be if the Legislature moved to Vegreville...
    Last edited by moahunter; 01-11-2016 at 12:31 PM.

  94. #94

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    ^ duh, gee, du yu thik mebee that's because bureaucracy needs to be able to recruit humans with options?

    Like I've kept repeating over and over and over?

    Let's make Edmonton better.

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    I disagree, Spudly, -- for people react to job moves with their gut, whether or not the jobs are theirs.
    I tried to reply, but I don't see how "react with their gut" matters in any way here. So what? It's a sign of what matters to folks on chatterboards, but most people aren't on them. There are, by my estimate, about 30 regular contributors here, 50 tops. Out of a city of a million. There's no reason to think that this chatter is indicative of anything but this board. Folks here would totally crap on a sample size of only 50.
    Just a guess, but I'd wager that this board is more-or-less representative of that section of the general public which is talking about the same issues as we are here.

    In other words, to the extent that people in Edmonton ARE discussing the immigration-centre move, most of what is being said, on both sides of the debate, is also being said on C2E. There probably aren't a lot of opinions being expressed here that haven't also been expressed in the analog world.

    Which is not meant as a putdown of the site, saying that it's just a redundancy etc. It's more to do with the fact that are really only a limited number of things that can be said about a particular topic, so what gets said in one venue is likely also being said elsewhere.

    And, in fact, if we're talking about DEPTH of discussion, I'd say C2E is probably slightly better than the average in the analog world, since people here are interested specifically in civic and regional issues. As opposed to people at a coffee shop who just happened to see the news article, and are making a few comments about it.

  96. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    We're not being jerks at all. At least not those of us in favour of this move.




    • Should we work with Vegreville?


    • Yes.



    but...

    • Should Vegreville work with us?


    Oh I don't know, maybe they should try to compete against us to the detriment of the entire Country. Great ******* idea.
    Thank you. There are different opinions on this issue and there are valid points to argue on both sides - having one opinion or another does not make a person a jerk. My background is growing up in rural Alberta, so I have some understanding of small towns as well as the big city. I have seen a number of businesses close in many small towns and usually it does not get much coverage in the media. I understand that it is a struggle for such communities, as so much is naturally drawn to larger communities (kind of like gravity - larger bodies attract more mass). However in this case, I think we put too much on government to counter balance things. It is sort of ironic to be having this debate in supposedly free enterprise Alberta.

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    Looks like the public service union representing the Vegreville workers is getting into the fray....

    Relocation of the Vegreville Case Processing Centre (IRCC) - the federal government must immediately reverse its decision.
    http://www.pipsc.ca/portal/page/port...s/cs/110220161

  98. #98

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    ^Interesting. Didn't hear a peep out of them when the relocation went the other way.

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    It's such a shame for Vegreville..

  100. #100

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    Enough of these hypocritical crocodile tears. If you guys were at all for real here, you would have stopped functioning when Ralph Klein laid off 10,000 in Edmonton.


    Rich. Preeeeeeeety rich.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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