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Thread: Fort McMurray fire

  1. #701
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    Fort McMurray wildfire costliest insured disaster in Canadian history

    Insurers are now looking at $3.68b in costs compared to the Slave Lake fire which had $750m in insured costs.

    Interesting that the 2013 floods had $6b in damages but only $1.7b was covered by insurers.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  2. #702
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    Excellent piece from CBC on the first few days of fighting the fire in the townsite.

    http://www.cbc.ca/interactives/longf...urray-wildfire

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  3. #703

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    Yes, and quite revealing.

    They are reviewing the response. I hope they don't find fault with the fire department. They worked with what they had and did an amazing job. It comes down to splitting hairs and second guessing with the issues around announcing the evac.

    Any failure and lessons learned should point towards the lack of advance preparation in this and many other towns and cities. (Think of New Orleans. Lack of funding, funding cuts, project delays etc. all led to their distaster. When it actually occurred, a certain randomness was inevitable. Their forces abandoned their jobs.)

    Basically, many wars and battles can be avoided and with enough defences attacks can be turned away, but to not expect the unexpected in battle, in a poorly anticipated battle, yet inevitable battle, is very foolish.
    Last edited by KC; 28-07-2016 at 11:19 PM.

  4. #704
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    Reading it over it sounds like they responded extremely well to a unprecedented situation. Where mistakes made? Of course there were. Nothing ever runs perfectly in first response, which is why, even in small incidents, there is a debrief and review. Based on this report, which is very selective, the only big questions I have are about the information being provided from the provincial firefighters to the town. In hindsight it seems they did not communicate the situation on the ground in the early stages to the town officials very well.

    The bottom line, though, is nothing in this account suggests any incompetence. They were making the best decisions they could with the information they had on very little sleep. In the end everyone got out alive and the saved most of the town.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  5. #705

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    Landscaping matters...

    Probably combined with nearby siding and roofing materials.



    To stop Alberta's natural events from becoming disasters, we must act now
    GLENN MCGILLIVRAY
    Contributed to The Globe and Mail
    Published Friday, Aug. 05, 2016


    Finally, and perhaps most importantly, is that owners of private property will need to embrace the use of mitigation measures. One of the biggest challenges with reducing the risk of disasters in Canada is that, when confronted with damage from severe weather, homeowners often pass blame and responsibility to others– usually the government.

    “I pay my taxes, fix it,” is an all-too-familiar refrain. But what homeowners often do not realize is that governments can take every action on the public-property and policy side of things and the disaster could still play out the same way.

    Scores of homes survived in Fort McMurray in otherwise decimated neighbourhoods. Why? A researcher for the Institute for Catastrophic Loss Reduction (ICLR), who investigated the phenomenon shortly after the fire, found clear evidence that how people landscaped and maintained their private properties played an overriding role in preventing ignition by embers, determining survival rates of homes.

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle31298372/

  6. #706

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    New Study Shows ‘Smoke Waves’ Will Affect Millions in the Coming Decades
    August 23, 2016Earth

    http://scitechdaily.com/new-study-sh...oming-decades/

  7. #707

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    ^Smoke Waves.....................from what they have been smoking.
    The world is giving off toxins naturally every day in the way of eruptions, fermenting vegetation, etc. Hawaii is still forming, lava giving off fumes and smoke constantly. The dropping of the atom bomb in Hiroshima will be felt for billions of years if you go by their logic. Mother nature has a record of wreaking havoc and remarkable record of healing herself.
    Smoke Waves - A new term coined to get 15 minutes of fame.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  8. #708
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^Smoke Waves.....................from what they have been smoking.
    The world is giving off toxins naturally every day in the way of eruptions, fermenting vegetation, etc. Hawaii is still forming, lava giving off fumes and smoke constantly. The dropping of the atom bomb in Hiroshima will be felt for billions of years if you go by their logic. Mother nature has a record of wreaking havoc and remarkable record of healing herself.
    Smoke Waves - A new term coined to get 15 minutes of fame.
    The article doesn't say anything about harm to the planet, this is about increasing numbers of wildfires impacting air quality in heavily populated areas.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  9. #709

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    ^Sometimes you throw out a point, any point, just to make one.
    I said the planet pollutes naturally on a daily basis. Geysers, gases, volcanoes etc. all going into the atmosphere. Smoke is a pollutant weather set fire naturally (lightning) or set fire by humans. The world has been spinning for billions of years. I should imagine it was one natural massive pollutant for a few billion of them. Mother Nature has been healing the planet and atmosphere since the beginning of time. I guess now we have 'smoke waves' to worry about. In the scheme of things I thought the wind was the broom that sweeps and blows pollution away or trees and plants clean the planet. They are going on the premise that these fires are going to increase. Do they have a crystal ball? Has the earth not had hot/cold cycles on a regular basis.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  10. #710
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    Again, the article has nothing to do with general pollution to the planet nor damage to the planet, it has to do with the affect of increasing numbers of heavy smoke events on large populations. You're the one making the irrelevant point.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  11. #711

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    ^Oops, you did it again.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  12. #712
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    Fort McMurray wildfire: The Beast gets distilled into whisky

    A pallet of peated malt that escaped the Fort McMurray wildfire is set to be distilled into a whisky and christened with the name of the blaze it survived: The Beast.

    Wood Buffalo Brewing Co. was struck by the idea of creating a signature spirit after discovering the 1,000 kilograms of malt had developed a new unique flavour thanks to being left on the side patio of the Morrison Street brew pub, absorbing the smoke from the forest fire.

    “It was already heavily peated malt destined for whisky, but it absorbed this extra flavour,” head brewer Spike Baker said.

    “You can taste the malt, but it also has this smoky campfire taste to it. This is definitely going to be a one-off whisky because these conditions are never going to be repeatable.”

    The brew pub approached the Fort McMurray Fire Fighters Association to partner with the organization for a special event Friday that will not only see the distillation process begin, but will be used to raise funds for the Friends of the Fort McMurray Firefighters Charities Association.

    “It’s an opportunity to celebrate how far we’ve come as a community,” Baker said. “In honour of the firefighters saving the city and making this whisky possible, we want to move that legacy forward — that’s where the giveback comes in.

    “Our local firefighters have been with us every step of the way and when we shared our initial idea, they jumped in to help brainstorm the name and even wanted to be part of the event.”

    Close to 200 bottles will be produced, and five of those will be auctioned off Friday.

    Successful bidders will receive an empty bottle and an IOU to be redeemed in five years when The Beast will be ready to drink.

    In addition, Wood Buffalo will provide 10 bottles a year for auctions that support victims of the wildfire.

    “This event is a chance for us to move forward and remember the good things,” Baker said.
    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...ed-into-whisky

  13. #713

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    Whiskey lovers could be all over this. Should be interesting to see how much a bottle goes for when they are auctioned.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  14. #714
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    Could be an interesting investment. If it turns out to be really good when finally produced the price would could go up a lot.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  15. #715

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    tThe Government of Alberta is going to hold a news conference today at 6:00 pm. Apparently it is going to release two reports in regards to the Ft. McMurray fire of 2016. I do agree that an enquiry is warranted if only to see if anything could have should have been done differently or if there is anything that can prevent this kind of inferno happening again. What I hopefully do not see is a bunch of government pen pushers raging about first responders. It's not O.K. to be armchair critics from the comfort of your government appointed office. Unless you are right in the action when things are changing rapidly and people are in danger your comfy office can lull you into a false sense of security. Should be interesting to see what these reports have to say.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  16. #716

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    Can't believe Notley lied about the reports not being finished . I'm sorry to my fellow Albertan's for voting that piece of crapola in. Nobody likes a liar ! She needs to go.
    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/poli...ldfire-reports
    Last edited by champking; 10-06-2017 at 03:57 PM.

  17. #717

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    Of course Brian Jean will jump on this for a little bit of political gain seeing as how he is the competition. The media likes to exaggerate too.

    What has she lied about? Have you read report?

  18. #718

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    Of course Brian Jean will jump on this for a little bit of political gain seeing as how he is the competition. The media likes to exaggerate too.

    What has she lied about? Have you read report?
    Please read the article before commenting. It states that Notley lied about the reports not being finished when in fact they were completed 6 weeks before being question. She blatantly LIED . A LIAR. The ultimate of scum on earth !

    Never mind Brian Jean . It's the base that she betrayed . Can't trust her.
    Last edited by champking; 11-06-2017 at 07:38 AM.

  19. #719

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    Quote Originally Posted by champking View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    Of course Brian Jean will jump on this for a little bit of political gain seeing as how he is the competition. The media likes to exaggerate too.

    What has she lied about? Have you read report?
    Please read the article before commenting. It states that Notley lied about the reports not being finished when in fact they were completed 6 weeks before being question. She blatantly LIED . A LIAR. The ultimate of scum on earth !

    Never mind Brian Jean . It's the base that she betrayed . Can't trust her.
    Nope, it doesn't state that Notley lied. Implies it? Yes. States it? No. I just looked. Moreover there seems to be some confusion on the writer's part about singular vs plural. Reminds me of the saying: "There are three types of people in the world, those who can count, and those who can't.'

    "Supporting that supposition is the fact Premier Rachel Notley said May 3 during a speech on the fire’s one-year anniversary that the reports were not ready — “They’re not complete as of yet, but we expect that they will be in about two to four weeks.”

    The fact is that on May 3, the less-than-flattering MNP report had been ready for six weeks."

  20. #720

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by champking View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    Of course Brian Jean will jump on this for a little bit of political gain seeing as how he is the competition. The media likes to exaggerate too.

    What has she lied about? Have you read report?
    Please read the article before commenting. It states that Notley lied about the reports not being finished when in fact they were completed 6 weeks before being question. She blatantly LIED . A LIAR. The ultimate of scum on earth !

    Never mind Brian Jean . It's the base that she betrayed . Can't trust her.
    Nope, it doesn't state that Notley lied. Implies it? Yes. States it? No. I just looked. Moreover there seems to be some confusion on the writer's part about singular vs plural. Reminds me of the saying: "There are three types of people in the world, those who can count, and those who can't.'

    "Supporting that supposition is the fact Premier Rachel Notley said May 3 during a speech on the fire’s one-year anniversary that the reports were not ready — “They’re not complete as of yet, but we expect that they will be in about two to four weeks.”

    The fact is that on May 3, the less-than-flattering MNP report had been ready for six weeks."
    Premier Rachel Notley said May 3 during a speech on the fire’s one-year anniversary that the reports were not ready . No singular or plural about it. She lied .

  21. #721

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    Of course Brian Jean will jump on this for a little bit of political gain seeing as how he is the competition. The media likes to exaggerate too.

    What has she lied about? Have you read report?
    None of the vitriol over this is indicating what would be essentially different with perfect organization during a huge, unpredicted swath of natural destruction. Overall I thought the province did an adequate job and especially considering a relatively inexperienced incumbent government. Should be noted that direction and organization problems were chronic within Wood Buffalo municipality, firefighters, RCMP as well. Theres going to be confusion over this kind of unexpected natural disaster. While things get geared up to respond. For real screwing up look at Hurricane Katrina and how that was dealt with. We haven't even experienced what natural calamity looks like with limited or disorganized response. Should be mentioned as well that a Hurricane is predictable. You have a lot of advance time to prepare that you don't get, at all, with an out of control Wildfire that behaved unexpectedly and that spread in a way not well understood before.

    Brian Jean is engaging in the lowest form of politics. Using calamity for political leverage. Using tragedy, unpreventable, for an attempt at political gain.

    Heres the thing. How many Wild Rose MP's would it take to respond to or put out a wildfire?

    Half of them would be infighting about what to do and disagreeing and yelling back and forth. 1/4 would be defecting to support the fire... and 3 of them would be delivering sermons about the burning lake of fire and the impending coming of the 4 horseman of the apocalypse.

    The Wild Rose party complaining about systemic organization, focus during disaster, and concerted response? You gotta be kidding me.
    Last edited by Replacement; 11-06-2017 at 09:59 AM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  22. #722

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    I just came back from my business trip and have not had the fortune to peruse the report, but your overall assement summed up my thoughts. I'm very acquainted with this terrain as I'm up north moonlighting in scaffold around these plants regularly. Yes it was one of those anomaly that no one could have predicted. The only fault, really, would be the Tory government for raping that city without implementing proper infrastructure. To that city. The saving grace to many of these folks was that the highway and access through Ft.Mac was the twinning and redevelopment of the the main artery through Ft.Mac. It completed just before the city caught on fire.

  23. #723

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    The issue isn't really what's in the reports . That shouldn't be politicized. The Notely government was in power maybe a year , these things need time .

    The problem lies in that : the people of McMurray deserved closure , they deserved answers and for Notley government to spin it , to lie about the reports not being complete is wrong on so many levels . She can't be trusted! I'm deeply sorry to all Albertan's for voting NDP. Never again !

  24. #724

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    The armchair critics who wrote the report should understand that mother nature is mightier than their pens. Unless you were there and part of the effort to keep the fire contained your opinion should be taking with a pinch of salt. A fire of that magnitude and wind conditions changing quickly just took that fire where it wanted to go. Mother nature - 1, Humans - 0.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  25. #725

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    Quote Originally Posted by champking View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by champking View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    Of course Brian Jean will jump on this for a little bit of political gain seeing as how he is the competition. The media likes to exaggerate too.

    What has she lied about? Have you read report?
    Please read the article before commenting. It states that Notley lied about the reports not being finished when in fact they were completed 6 weeks before being question. She blatantly LIED . A LIAR. The ultimate of scum on earth !

    Never mind Brian Jean . It's the base that she betrayed . Can't trust her.
    Nope, it doesn't state that Notley lied. Implies it? Yes. States it? No. I just looked. Moreover there seems to be some confusion on the writer's part about singular vs plural. Reminds me of the saying: "There are three types of people in the world, those who can count, and those who can't.'

    "Supporting that supposition is the fact Premier Rachel Notley said May 3 during a speech on the fire’s one-year anniversary that the reports were not ready — “They’re not complete as of yet, but we expect that they will be in about two to four weeks.”

    The fact is that on May 3, the less-than-flattering MNP report had been ready for six weeks."
    Premier Rachel Notley said May 3 during a speech on the fire’s one-year anniversary that the reports were not ready . No singular or plural about it. She lied .
    Its all confusing to me. Notley said: "They're not complete..." Well, one was, one possibly wasn't - it wasn't in their hands anyway. The writer said of the May 3rd comment: "Why hadn’t they been released earlier, especially the MNP report?" "They" is plural but the KPMG report wasn't delivered until May 20th so the use of "they" confuses me. Notley could have hinted at the MNP's harsh findings though - if she'd known about them, however I could see waiting to review both side by side for efficiency and objectivity. (Not that I think that is EVER the objective.)

    Here's the timeline below.

    March 22 MNP report

    May 3 - Notley's comment: “They’re not complete as of yet, but we expect that they will be in about two to four weeks.”

    May 20 - KPMG report




    The MNP report had been delivered to the government on March 22, the KPMG document on May 20.

    Why hadn’t they been released earlier, especially the MNP report?

    “In consideration of the people of Fort McMurray, we didn’t want to time the release of them close to the date of the anniversary of the fire, which we think would have made some people anxious,” said Carlier in a statement that sounded more than a tad condescending.

    Carlier and Anderson said they had wanted time to demonstrate how the government was responding to the reports’ 31 recommendations.

    However, a skeptic could surmise the government sat on the reports until the spring sitting of the legislature was safely over and cabinet ministers wouldn’t be subject to daily questioning by the opposition.

    Supporting that supposition is the fact Premier Rachel Notley said May 3 during a speech on the fire’s one-year anniversary that the reports were not ready — “They’re not complete as of yet, but we expect that they will be in about two to four weeks.”

    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/poli...ldfire-reports
    I guess the moral of the story is that all these things need to be more transparent. Any report delivered could be posted publicly without review. (Predetermined, confidential information treated in other ways.)

    Maybe the same for the journalist's research and draft article. Put it online as the story is written or abandoned and not hold it back for any reason. That way readers can feel assured that the journalist or media outlet isn't timing release for impact, revenue objectives, political objectives, slow news days, etc.

    Then if new contradicting or clarifying information comes in, it could be revised and a new corrected version released.

    So a new report is delivered to the government, the media jumps on it prior to government having a chance to comment, one, the government wouldn't be attacked for not having a comment, and two, when the government does comment, the reporter would be required to integrate such latter commentary into the article and release it again as a current news story.

    Additionally, with computers now, timelines, tables, graphs links and all kinds informative information can be incorporated. Maybe for fact checking quotations, reporter opinions and interpretations, and putting information into objective perspectives for readers more information should be included in every article.

    This article lacks even basic links to verify anything. Something we are seeing in a lot of other media reporting. So where's the link to the CBC online story referenced by this reporter/journalist? And one for Notely's speech?
    Last edited by KC; 11-06-2017 at 01:58 PM.

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