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Thread: Ice District Tower B | ~150m | Under Construction

  1. #1101

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    ^^If it hadn't been just converted to parking I would have thought that one of the city centre basements would be an ideal location for a grocery store. Should definitely be cheaper than new arena district. If Dollarama was able to pay enough make keeping some retail down there worth it for the mall then even a low-rent grocery like no-frills could have done it.A City Market or Urban Fare with an exterior entrance right next to the new valley line station would have been ideal.
    There can only be one.

  2. #1102

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    The closure of Sobey's a few years ago was a huge loss and inconvenience for those of us that live downtown. The absence of a proper grocery store in walking distance is currently the toughest impediment to overcome if you're attempting to live car-free.

    Certainly there must be some way to reduce the costs for a grocery store which is providing healthier, fresh foods to the community? This seems like an opportunity for either a co-op, or rent incentive for a grocery tenant.
    Go down a few dark alleys.

  3. #1103

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    Why would a co-op or other grocer open now before they know what's going into tower B? A co-op doesn't have the deep pockets that Katz can use to attract another grocer. Better to wait until the situation with the podium is finalized.

  4. #1104

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    Quote Originally Posted by mnugent View Post
    The closure of Sobey's a few years ago was a huge loss and inconvenience for those of us that live downtown.
    The inability of downtowners to support a grocery store says more about all of you than you realize.

  5. #1105

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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mnugent View Post
    The closure of Sobey's a few years ago was a huge loss and inconvenience for those of us that live downtown.
    The inability of downtowners to support a grocery store says more about all of you than you realize.
    the inability to understand why the grocery store closed despite it being explained several times says more about you than you realize.

  6. #1106

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    Any store closes for only one reason: the people it tried to serve did not need it.

    That is all. And it's a comment not just on the store, but on its intended customers.

  7. #1107

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mnugent View Post
    The closure of Sobey's a few years ago was a huge loss and inconvenience for those of us that live downtown.
    The inability of downtowners to support a grocery store says more about all of you than you realize.
    the inability to understand why the grocery store closed despite it being explained several times says more about you than you realize.
    Debating the poster and not the topic at hand says more about you than you realize.
    Edmonton first, everything else second.

  8. #1108

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    I'm starting to see a pattern.

  9. #1109

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    Sobey's on 104 street had a horrible layout, a lousy grocery selection, and high prices. Contrast that with Shopper's Drug Mart, which has done well enough with its grocery selection in City Centre East they moved to street level in a two storey store, while maintaining a second location in City Centre west. And neither location has free parking.

    Although Save-On does get a large amount of car traffic, many people do come on foot, and other people take large grocery orders home by taxi. An Ice District grocer would have the new people living in Sky, Legends, Encore, etc, and likely draw in people on foot from 95 st to 104 st. The same people could do larger runs with taxi or a Pogo car, or possibly just taking their shopping cart home full and bringing it back empty, if the store doesn't lock the carts out after leaving the property. It would also get business people grabbing lunch groceries to stick in their staff room fridge to take home later, saving them a trip to their local grocer for a small load.

    A larger grocery store, designed from scratch as such, with enough emphasis on a good grocery, produce, and meat section while stilling having a great ready to eat section can do well in the Ice District.
    Last edited by Ustauk; 10-05-2018 at 05:33 PM.

  10. #1110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisD
    namely no grocery anchor


    It's incredible to me how shortsighted and poorly run our national grocery chains are. 10,000-15,000 customers within a 10 block radius, and they aren't interested?
    I know there's a fair amount of uncertainty in the industry given Amazon's (online) influence. They are re-evaluating how much space they need (smaller footprints) to prepare for the future, which there is a lot of uncertainty.

  11. #1111
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    ^^ There is a Sobeys Urban Market near the U of A. I'm interested to know how it's doing, especially with a Safeway just 3 blocks away.
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  12. #1112

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ustauk View Post
    possibly just taking their shopping cart home full and bringing it back empty, if the store doesn't lock the carts out after leaving the property.
    Or we'd just end up with shopping carts abandoned throughout the downtown.

  13. #1113

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasH View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mnugent View Post
    The closure of Sobey's a few years ago was a huge loss and inconvenience for those of us that live downtown.
    The inability of downtowners to support a grocery store says more about all of you than you realize.
    the inability to understand why the grocery store closed despite it being explained several times says more about you than you realize.
    Debating the poster and not the topic at hand says more about you than you realize.
    That's pretty rich coming from a guy who sends me PMs calling me an id.iot and threatening me.

  14. #1114

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasH View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mnugent View Post
    The closure of Sobey's a few years ago was a huge loss and inconvenience for those of us that live downtown.
    The inability of downtowners to support a grocery store says more about all of you than you realize.
    the inability to understand why the grocery store closed despite it being explained several times says more about you than you realize.
    Debating the poster and not the topic at hand says more about you than you realize.
    That's pretty rich coming from a guy who sends me PMs calling me an id.iot and threatening me.
    With the condo boom and more condos planned on the way downtown, we can't have the thousands of new residents all driving, that would be chaos. I wonder if the city has been involved at all in helping bring a grocery store downtown in order to make the Ice District area more walkable/pedestrian friendly through a subsidy? They've been doing that through funding bike lanes, and it's something most people would I'm sure support.

  15. #1115

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    Right, like the arena isn't subsidy enough. Now the city should be subsidizing businesses the locate downtown.

    Poorer sections of the city ' "You don't deserve easy access to grocery stores. We're going to enforce these covenants so that when one store leaves another can't take over the space"

    Brand new condos downtown - "Here's some money to help you get a grocery store you can walk to in two minutes or less"

    If the developer wants to offer a break, go for it. Why should the city when there's a Save-On Foods 850 metres away?
    Last edited by kkozoriz; 10-05-2018 at 09:15 PM.

  16. #1116

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    wow another debate on the grocery store.... We should ban anyone stupid enough to bring this up again for the 1000 time.

  17. #1117

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    If the city didn’t want all those downtown residents driving it shouldn’t have required parking be built for them.
    I would be ****** if the city were to subsidize a grocery store downtown or anywhere else. If anything developers of surrounding residential whether that’s here downtown or in a new suburb have every reason to offer reasonably low rent to a grocery store for the same reason that new neighbourhoods like to advertise if they actually have a school.
    Katz/ONE own a whole lot of land yet right around the arena that they hope to develop and make good profits on. Having a grocery store right there would be a great selling feature. If anyone should be subsidizing a grocery store it should be them.
    There can only be one.

  18. #1118

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    No, no, no. That's what the community revitalization levy is for. Directing tax dollars away from the rest of the city and subsidizing businesses in the downtown area. Like the arena. NHL teams are a threadbare operation, don't ya know. Those $10 million a year contracts really eat up your ability to pay for a building for your business.

  19. #1119

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    Quote Originally Posted by mattyw View Post

    With the condo boom and more condos planned on the way downtown, we can't have the thousands of new residents all driving, that would be chaos. I wonder if the city has been involved at all in helping bring a grocery store downtown in order to make the Ice District area more walkable/pedestrian friendly through a subsidy? They've been doing that through funding bike lanes, and it's something most people would I'm sure support.
    Most people get groceries for a few weeks at a time. A car is pretty much necessary for those types of trips, regardless of proximity to grocery store. The daily run for a few items is easy enough on foot. When I lived in Oliver just a few blocks away from Safeway, I drove more often than walked because once you get more than a few bags of groceries, its pretty big chore to lug it all back on foot, unless you are borrowing a shopping cart.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mnugent View Post
    The closure of Sobey's a few years ago was a huge loss and inconvenience for those of us that live downtown.
    The inability of downtowners to support a grocery store says more about all of you than you realize.
    Sobeys closed that store, not the lack of patronage. Terrible management, poor layout, inefficient, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.
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  21. #1121

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    The number of etceteras does not matter.

    The grocery on Jasper and 104 closed five years ago.

    Nothing has opened since.

    Please do not delude yourself that your beloved downtown can actually support anything so basic to human existence as a grocery store.

    If it could, one would be open right now.

    You can add as many pious words as you want, but the fact is that the sort of people who live downtown do not support a grocery store.

  22. #1122

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mnugent View Post
    The closure of Sobey's a few years ago was a huge loss and inconvenience for those of us that live downtown.
    The inability of downtowners to support a grocery store says more about all of you than you realize.
    Sobeys closed that store, not the lack of patronage. Terrible management, poor layout, inefficient, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.
    Sobeys runs a few other stores too, so it’s hard to believe that local management or store layout would have caused upper management to throw in the towel on it

    Efficiency? Maybe inventory and supply issues. Stocking a high inventory turnover business downtown might be a hard thing to do efficiently. Staffing issues maybe? Squeezed margins with costs and downtown property taxes or leasing costs maybe?

    What did they actually say was the reason? That might have been it.


    I’m back. I found this:

    Mass closings - corporate targets, need to boost financials, etc.

    Sobeys closing store on 104th Street | CBC News

    “ “We’re always reviewing our stores and the locations and the markets we’re in and the Jasper/104, unfortunately, at the end of the day, it just wasn’t financially viable for us to operate,” Scobie told Edmonton AM host Mark Connolly.

    Sobeys opened the “urban concept” store to much fanfare in 2008.

    The grocery store was tailored to the tastes of people populating newly-constructed condos in the downtown core by offering ready-made meals, an in-store cafe, and windows that opened to the street.
    ...
    The grocery chain announced the closure of 50 under-performing stores across Canada on Thursday. Sobeys says that it is company policy not to say how many employees will be laid off as a result of the closures.

    Four stores will close in Edmonton:

    Urban Fresh at Jasper and 104st Street. Closing July 31

    Mainstreet Sobeys Mill Woods. Closing July 31

    Clock IGA at 15445 Stony Plain Road. Closing July 10

    Heritage Sobeys at 111st Street and 23rd Avenue. No firm closing date. Will stay open until the fall ...”

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...reet-1.2688247
    Bolding mine
    Last edited by KC; 11-05-2018 at 08:28 PM.

  23. #1123

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    Underperforming in this context means insufficient revenue.

    Look, there are all sorts of reasons people may not want to shop for groceries in a given spot.

    But downtown has gone decades without a grocery store, while having a population in the thousands or more. So whatever it is, it is more about the demand side of the market rather than the supply.

    If the downtowners wonder why no grocery will serve them, they should look in the mirror. There's no need to be defensive about it.

  24. #1124
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    Why do people continue to forget about Save-On - Downtown's primary grocery store for the last 2+ decades.

    We also have Safeway, Lucky 97, multiple other Chinese, Vietnamese, Italian, etc. groceries within a 5mins drive. There certainly is not a lack of options nearby. Parcel that with the City Market where I get most of my veggies, bread, cheese and meat each week.

    Simply put, Sobeys had a poor performing store because of management, missing the market, poor use of space and a lack of understanding of their primary customer. BECAUSE of the above, they dropped it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    Underperforming in this context means insufficient revenue.
    Yield is different than top line revenue. You can generate a ton of revenue, but if your cost structure is such that the spread is not there... huge revenue means very little. This industry has incredibly small margins, that is very well known and as per my other comments they simply ran their own store into a position that it was not feasible to continue.

    Demand was and still is there.
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  26. #1126

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Why do people continue to forget about Save-On - Downtown's primary grocery store for the last 2+ decades.

    We also have Safeway, Lucky 97, multiple other Chinese, Vietnamese, Italian, etc. groceries within a 5mins drive. There certainly is not a lack of options nearby. Parcel that with the City Market where I get most of my veggies, bread, cheese and meat each week.

    Simply put, Sobeys had a poor performing store because of management, missing the market, poor use of space and a lack of understanding of their primary customer. BECAUSE of the above, they dropped it.
    I’d say that even the best management can’t overcome a bad situation. If they faced superior competition loyal to their existing stores it would be tough to break into that market. Bad management, yes maybe in terms of initial site selection and design but possibly less so in terms of the operational managers.





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    As for people forgetting Save-On - if so, that’s not a good sign of their market awareness efforts.
    Last edited by KC; 12-05-2018 at 11:56 AM.

  27. #1127

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    This grocery talk is so fascinating that I suggest you guys create your own thread for it so we can talk about, you know, Tower B. Yeesh.

  28. #1128

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    You mean Tower B that's been advertised as having a grocery store in the podium? That Tower B?


  29. #1129

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    Man, this would be a huge hit to the Ice District, if both the Cineplex and Grocery store bow out - in terms of getting people to come there.

  30. #1130

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    I work in grocery. I know exactly what is meant by the word "under-perforning". The management of a grocery store, upper and middle, may or may not be excellent (God knows I've had to deal with it, excellent and not so, both from above and below and in myself), but in the end stores are closed -- as opposed to sold, transferred, rebranded, and so on -- when the bottom line does not work out. Which means that there is not enough sales of the food on the shelves, and the margin dips below the critical point.

    Nor have I forgotten about the Save-On. It is certainly there; but it is not really downtown. It is on the very edge of Oliver, and I venture that its market is mostly in Oliver also. Certainly when I lived in Oliver fifteen years ago I shopped there or at the Safeway, more or less indiscriminately. The remarkable fact is that although the downtown population has grown since 2000, not a single grocery store, Sobeys or otherwise, has been able to keep going, even right in the very centre of the new residential area on 104 street -- and now we hear that the supposed store to open in the building B is in limbo.

    IanO, you say there's demand for a grocery store. Let me ask you, then: what do buy when you buy food? Is it fresh meat/seafood, produce, dairy -- the high-value drivers that account for around a third of the total revenue, but must be prepared at great length by the consumer? Is it the unglamorous but steady dry and frozen goods in the centre of the store, which are around half the revenue, have a thin but stable margin, and keep the store going, but do not by themselves make anything all that great a meal? Or is it baked goods, hot-meal replacement and high-end deli foods, which make up whatever total revenue remains, have an apparently good gross margin, but are scarcely net-profitable to the store because of the labour costs of preparation?

    Because that's where the apparent growth in grocery has been for ten years or more, especially among the non-nuclear-family consumer, but these are probably the hardest department to get just right. (Bread by itself has been in strong decline, by the way.) They compete not just against traditional grocery, but also against the hospitality food-service. And is really subject to trend and whim. Just what kind of fusion junk are you in the mood to eat tonight, anyway? (Mild sarcasm there.) And where are you going to get it?

    The Sobey's urban-fresh format tried to meet this demand head on and was not really successful in that location. But you know, despite all the talk, and despite the apparent growth in HMR, the really successful grocery stores -- which include the Save-On in Sunterra -- live off their fresh and dry goods. The Sobeys failed, I venture to guess, almost certainly because it had not the market for fresh and dry to keep it alive.

    And it did not because the downtown population has demonstrated that its food choices are those of transients: of visitors, of business travellers, of squatters, who go out and hang out when they want to eat. Who have not the time or inclination to prepare their own meals.

    This fact has been demonstrated for decades, and is almost certainly why the apparent plans for a grocery in building B -- whichever players may have been interested -- are rumoured to be in question.
    Last edited by AShetsen; 12-05-2018 at 01:12 PM.

  31. #1131
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    Quote Originally Posted by PunjabiOil View Post
    Man, this would be a huge hit to the Ice District, if both the Cineplex and Grocery store bow out - in terms of getting people to come there.
    I really think it's a matter of when and not if. Too much going on now and in the future to not have them. In regards to grocery, I'd wish for a Trader Joe's as a first location in the country . I can't see that not being very successful. Good quality grocery at decent prices. Only negative is that they wouldn't have everything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    I work in grocery. I know exactly what is meant by the word "under-perforning". The management of a grocery store, upper and middle, may or may not be excellent (God knows I've had to deal with it, excellent and not so, both from above and below and in myself), but in the end stores are closed -- as opposed to sold, transferred, rebranded, and so on -- when the bottom line does not work out. Which means that there is not enough sales of the food on the shelves, and the margin dips below the critical point.

    Nor have I forgotten about the Save-On. It is certainly there; but it is not really downtown. It is on the very edge of Oliver, and I venture that its market is mostly in Oliver also. Certainly when I lived in Oliver fifteen years ago I shopped there or at the Safeway, more or less indiscriminately. The remarkable fact is that although the downtown population has grown since 2000, not a single grocery store, Sobeys or otherwise, has been able to keep going, even right in the very centre of the new residential area on 104 street -- and now we hear that the supposed store to open in the building B is in limbo.

    IanO, you say there's demand for a grocery store. Let me ask you, then: what do buy when you buy food? Is it fresh meat/seafood, produce, dairy -- the high-value drivers that account for around a third of the total revenue, but must be prepared at great length by the consumer? Is it the unglamorous but steady dry and frozen goods in the centre of the store, which are around half the revenue, have a thin but stable margin, and keep the store going, but do not by themselves make anything all that great a meal? Or is it baked goods, hot-meal replacement and high-end deli foods, which make up whatever total revenue remains, have an apparently good gross margin, but are scarcely net-profitable to the store because of the labour costs of preparation?

    Because that's where the apparent growth in grocery has been for ten years or more, especially among the non-nuclear-family consumer, but these are probably the hardest department to get just right. (Bread by itself has been in strong decline, by the way.) They compete not just against traditional grocery, but also against the hospitality food-service. And is really subject to trend and whim. Just what kind of fusion junk are you in the mood to eat tonight, anyway? (Mild sarcasm there.) And where are you going to get it?

    The Sobey's urban-fresh format tried to meet this demand head on and was not really successful in that location. But you know, despite all the talk, and despite the apparent growth in HMR, the really successful grocery stores -- which include the Save-On in Sunterra -- live off their fresh and dry goods. The Sobeys failed, I venture to guess, almost certainly because it had not the market for fresh and dry to keep it alive.

    And it did not because the downtown population has demonstrated that its food choices are those of transients: of visitors, of business travellers, of squatters, who go out and hang out when they want to eat. Who have not the time or inclination to prepare their own meals.

    This fact has been demonstrated for decades, and is almost certainly why the apparent plans for a grocery in building B -- whichever players may have been interested -- are rumoured to be in question.
    Save-On serves the area, but there are multiple options diluting Oliver's consumer base. Most of the people I know living Downtown are Save-On or they head to Superstore on Kingsway.

    Sobeys made a killing on fresh/pre-made/lunch. It was always incredibly busy. Where they did not succeed was on the required household staples.

    I used Sobeys nearly every day and was exceptionally aware of what was working and was not.

    While I am not sure what they are looking at securing in Tower B, I would guess that a Sunterra/Italian Centre type of grocery/market would be the aim versus a larger scale/format 'everything' store.
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    Ian is spot on in his assessment. This is/was my routine:
    Saveon - often, walked there always combined with a visit to something else nearby like Pint or Hudson’s
    Sobeys on 4th - bakery, veggies, meats - daily visit, to-go dinners - 2-3 blocks, walked
    Safeway - meat and bakery - weekend - drive
    Ital Centre - a godly place - drive and walk
    Superstore - once a month bulk stuff - drive
    Loblaws City Market - not interested though it has some great cheeses etc.
    Street Market on 104th - once a month visit veggies only, though did buy bison and frozen fish

  34. #1134

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    Does the Shoppers in City Centre have a grocery section?

  35. #1135

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    Apparently the main floor is pretty well all grocery.

  36. #1136

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    Quote Originally Posted by PunjabiOil View Post
    Man, this would be a huge hit to the Ice District, if both the Cineplex and Grocery store bow out - in terms of getting people to come there.
    I don't care about the Cineplex, we have Landmark theatre right there in City Centre. But I think it's important for the City to have a grocery store, and it makes downtown more car-free. I've written my councillor with the option of providing a temporary subsidy until it gets it gets ingrained into the community and then it could removed. He said that that could be a good idea, and he will raise it with colleagues to explore that option if indeed they are having trouble attracting one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lat View Post
    Apparently the main floor is pretty well all grocery.
    It has an expanded food section with many household needs as well, but it is not a 'grocery' per se. Excellent compliment to larger grocers and many options for folks including milk, eggs, cheese, bread, etc... but not a replacement for another market.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattyw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PunjabiOil View Post
    Man, this would be a huge hit to the Ice District, if both the Cineplex and Grocery store bow out - in terms of getting people to come there.
    I don't care about the Cineplex, we have Landmark theatre right there in City Centre. But I think it's important for the City to have a grocery store, and it makes downtown more car-free. I've written my councillor with the option of providing a temporary subsidy until it gets it gets ingrained into the community and then it could removed. He said that that could be a good idea, and he will raise it with colleagues to explore that option if indeed they are having trouble attracting one.
    More entertainment options are important to ensure Downtown continues to draw more people to it to support other services, restaurants, bars etc.

    You cannot subsidize something like that in a free market economy. It would not only send the wrong message to others, but where do you stop with something like that?

    How the City can assist is ensuring that we continue to support quality residential proposals in the core to expand the residential base.
    www.decl.org

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  39. #1139

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mattyw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PunjabiOil View Post
    Man, this would be a huge hit to the Ice District, if both the Cineplex and Grocery store bow out - in terms of getting people to come there.
    I don't care about the Cineplex, we have Landmark theatre right there in City Centre. But I think it's important for the City to have a grocery store, and it makes downtown more car-free. I've written my councillor with the option of providing a temporary subsidy until it gets it gets ingrained into the community and then it could removed. He said that that could be a good idea, and he will raise it with colleagues to explore that option if indeed they are having trouble attracting one.
    More entertainment options are important to ensure Downtown continues to draw more people to it to support other services, restaurants, bars etc.

    You cannot subsidize something like that in a free market economy. It would not only send the wrong message to others, but where do you stop with something like that?

    How the City can assist is ensuring that we continue to support quality residential proposals in the core to expand the residential base.
    If I have this right, we have the downtown’s poor eating poor quality food for lack of access to regular grocery store fruits and vegetables. There might be a case for subsidizing better quality groceries in the downtown to ensure basic access for all. New delivery methods might be a good substitute.


    Additionally, we subsidized the new arena. Just the City admin. and the City Mayor Councillor manhours must have been hugely expensive. Moreover, the creation of a Community levy added distinct bias to the standard traditional principles around municiple taxing and spending. Then there’s innumerable special events that the city supports that creates cash flows to private businesses.
    Last edited by KC; 13-05-2018 at 10:01 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mattyw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PunjabiOil View Post
    Man, this would be a huge hit to the Ice District, if both the Cineplex and Grocery store bow out - in terms of getting people to come there.
    I don't care about the Cineplex, we have Landmark theatre right there in City Centre. But I think it's important for the City to have a grocery store, and it makes downtown more car-free. I've written my councillor with the option of providing a temporary subsidy until it gets it gets ingrained into the community and then it could removed. He said that that could be a good idea, and he will raise it with colleagues to explore that option if indeed they are having trouble attracting one.
    Ah good ol' social engineering. Force things down the throats of a populace until they're used to it because one doesn't like cars. It's just the type of idea city hall would embrace, and I bet the local competitors would love it too.
    There was no need to change that plaque. We are the City of Champions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mattyw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PunjabiOil View Post
    Man, this would be a huge hit to the Ice District, if both the Cineplex and Grocery store bow out - in terms of getting people to come there.
    I don't care about the Cineplex, we have Landmark theatre right there in City Centre. But I think it's important for the City to have a grocery store, and it makes downtown more car-free. I've written my councillor with the option of providing a temporary subsidy until it gets it gets ingrained into the community and then it could removed. He said that that could be a good idea, and he will raise it with colleagues to explore that option if indeed they are having trouble attracting one.
    good god no...

    why subsidize a new player instead of save on foods who has plugged away paying top dollar rents for decades. why not reimburse sobeys or mother earth’s general store for the money they poured in to failed ventures?

    if the city wants to get into the grocery/food business let them reopen a year round seven day city market - maybe in the ironworks building where it could serve boyle/macaulay as well as downtown.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Additionally, we subsidized the new arena. Just the City admin. and the City Mayor Councillor manhours must have been hugely expensive. Moreover, the creation of a Community levy added distinct bias to the standard traditional principles around municiple taxing and spending. Then there’s innumerable special events that the city supports that creates cash flows to private businesses.
    Rogers Place and its land are City owned assets, ie. we own it as tax payers.
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  43. #1143

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mattyw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PunjabiOil View Post
    Man, this would be a huge hit to the Ice District, if both the Cineplex and Grocery store bow out - in terms of getting people to come there.
    I don't care about the Cineplex, we have Landmark theatre right there in City Centre. But I think it's important for the City to have a grocery store, and it makes downtown more car-free. I've written my councillor with the option of providing a temporary subsidy until it gets it gets ingrained into the community and then it could removed. He said that that could be a good idea, and he will raise it with colleagues to explore that option if indeed they are having trouble attracting one.
    good god no...

    why subsidize a new player instead of save on foods who has plugged away paying top dollar rents for decades. why not reimburse sobeys or mother earth’s general store for the money they poured in to failed ventures?

    if the city wants to get into the grocery/food business let them reopen a year round seven day city market - maybe in the ironworks building where it could serve boyle/macaulay as well as downtown.
    Yes, you’re a realist. Covert subsidies are always far more socially acceptable than clear “transparent” overt subsides.

  44. #1144

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by lat View Post
    Apparently the main floor is pretty well all grocery.
    It has an expanded food section with many household needs as well, but it is not a 'grocery' per se. Excellent compliment to larger grocers and many options for folks including milk, eggs, cheese, bread, etc... but not a replacement for another market.
    Good to know... Just going by the wife's description.

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    I wonder if a grocery store north of the Arena District (say 102 Street/105 Avenue) could work. It would serve 107 Avenue, downtown and it's a short walk to the LRT.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  46. #1146

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Additionally, we subsidized the new arena. Just the City admin. and the City Mayor Councillor manhours must have been hugely expensive. Moreover, the creation of a Community levy added distinct bias to the standard traditional principles around municiple taxing and spending. Then there’s innumerable special events that the city supports that creates cash flows to private businesses.
    Rogers Place and its land are City owned assets, ie. we own it as tax payers.
    Exactly. Where are people getting that we gave stuff away to Katz?

  47. #1147

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    Quote Originally Posted by mattyw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Additionally, we subsidized the new arena. Just the City admin. and the City Mayor Councillor manhours must have been hugely expensive. Moreover, the creation of a Community levy added distinct bias to the standard traditional principles around municiple taxing and spending. Then there’s innumerable special events that the city supports that creates cash flows to private businesses.
    Rogers Place and its land are City owned assets, ie. we own it as tax payers.
    Exactly. Where are people getting that we gave stuff away to Katz?
    Like the coliseum - will we own actual controlling interest when it’s no longer profitable - the coliseum has a pending $25 million demolition tab (likely to double to $50 million as is usually the case).

    Additionally, under City ownership but private control, does it pay any property taxes? (Most non-subsidized business with a physical presence do pay taxes.)


    I’m not saying that it hasn’t or won’t be a great deal for Edmonton, just that the lines between public and private subsidies has been blurred on this project and the dollar amounts are very substantial. Those that think the new City of Edmonton Taxpayers’ arena, sorry what’s it’s private company name; “Rogers Place” arena has been a roaring success should then agree that synergies can potentially yield great returns to all involved.


    Something else to consider in the degree of subsidy the private interests benefiting from the City’s ‘support’ for the new arena have received, will be any impairment costs to Northlands that the taxpayers now have to swallow because the deal destroyed much of the Northlands’ remaining business model.
    Last edited by KC; 13-05-2018 at 01:17 PM.

  48. #1148

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    Because subsidizing a hockey team makes good business sense, right?

    "I've got this great business idea but I can't afford the specialized building I need to run it.",

    "No problem, we'll just set it up so instead of taxes flowing to the city, we'll just use the funds to build a building for you to use and you can keep all the profits as well.",

    "Yay, capitalism!"

    "Hey, can my grocery store get a piece of this action? It would help a lot"

  49. #1149

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisD View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Bird View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Cat View Post
    I think, with Encore (and possibly a couple of other projects) going up, that there would be some interest in the Tower B residences, and probably the retail too.
    I would expect it's exactly because of Encore, Legends, Sky, etc that there ISN'T as much interest in the Tower B residences - every market has it's saturation point. Of course, I think it will eventually go ahead in one form or another, possibly quite soon but moreso because of all the sunk costs, not great current demand.

    Different story for the retail (grocery, theatre, etc) which will benefit from the aforementioned residential development so close.

    This "tale of two aspects" is why I had mused on this thread, quite a long while ago, that one of the options they might be considering would be to build the podium/retail immediately and defer the highrise component until better times - unlikely, I agree, but I think there would be some discussion of this option at minimum.
    The issue isn't the residential component, it's the podium - namely no grocery anchor and word that the theatre may be in limbo. They need to figure this out before proceeding especially if the podium requires some redesign.
    ChrisD, can you confirm where you heard there was no grocery tenant and when you heard that? My understanding is that a binding lease agreement was signed last year. Not saying that someone couldn't back out of that, but reading through p.11/12 of this thread seems to show that the most recent discussion about Cineplex and the grocery retailer is based more on conjecture than fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Cat View Post
    I wonder if a grocery store north of the Arena District (say 102 Street/105 Avenue) could work. It would serve 107 Avenue, downtown and it's a short walk to the LRT.
    ...in Ice District Phase 2 you mean? Also, there are multiple groceries/markets in Chinatown/107ave.
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  51. #1151
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Cat View Post
    I wonder if a grocery store north of the Arena District (say 102 Street/105 Avenue) could work. It would serve 107 Avenue, downtown and it's a short walk to the LRT.
    Only if 103rd St can be a used and 101 with a left turn. Going through the arena is not practical.

  52. #1152

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    whoever said the amazon idea... lol

    Its like all those other people that said Edmonton had a chance for the hq? like really?

    We are still Edmonton. Yes we are million + now (metro anyways) we are NOT world class. These big ideas of grocery store chains, on every corner and an urban 24/7 living environment is just NOT sustainable yet. Edmonton urban footprint is huge and land here is (relatively) cheap in comparison to other metropolitan areas.

  53. #1153
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    24/7 is rarely sustainable (nor desired) anywhere... be it NYC, London, Tokyo, Toronto.

    7-11 is the key.
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  54. #1154

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    There's already two 7-11's, one at 104 st and one at 101. There we go. Problem solved.

    Was in Halifax a while ago and there's a number of 24 hour Sobeys there. Guess you can tack Halifax on your list after Toronto.

    Just googled it. 3 Sobeys and a Superstore are 24 hours in HRM.
    Last edited by kkozoriz; 14-05-2018 at 06:45 PM.

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    Freson Brothers is open 24/7 in Hinton.

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    Another world class city.

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    Freson Markets are open 24 7 in towns across alberta, and one coming to windermere soon, well, across the henday

  58. #1158

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    South Terwillegar! Another grocery store within walking distance to me!

    I'll have 4 grocery stores within walking distance of me way out here in the ****** burbs, and downtown barely has one.

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    ^ If you are considering Windermere and South Terwillegar to be within walking distance of a single point, then Oliver Square is well within walking distance for most of downtown.

  60. #1160

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    'Walking distance' doesn't do you any good if there are no sidewalks or 'afterthought' sidewalks next to dusty, noisy four lane highways
    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits" - Einstein

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    South Terwillegar! Another grocery store within walking distance to me!

    I'll have 4 grocery stores within walking distance of me way out here in the ****** burbs, and downtown barely has one.
    wow sounds like you're really winning. tell us more!


  62. #1162

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    The apparent struggles of Tower B and its podium are surprising to me. Location, location, location. You'd think businesses and individuals would be lining up to set up shop/reside there.

  63. #1163

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    I suspect the grocery store would be happy to open up as soon as possible. My guess is there is a hold up in Tower B itself, in regards to height and whether its a condo or rental. Without that decision being made, you won't have a firm opening date. If the grocer announces their plans too far ahead of the opening date, that gives the other grocers the chance to play spoiler and open up a grocery store somewhere else nearbye. Once Tower B's configuration is settled and a construction date set, then we will likely get the announcer on the grocer for the space.

  64. #1164

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    ^Pretty much correct.
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    ^^^lease details often hold things up... ie. $/sqft.
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    ^^ ^^^

    i'm less than convinced that's "pretty much correct".

    if the market is only big enough for one grocer and a grocer is committed to it, a second grocer is much less likely to enter that market, not more. there is no money to be made "playing spoiler" - you only end up having two grocers losing money instead of one making money if one grocer is all the market will support.

    if another grocer really wanted to "play spoiler", they would commit to space hoping that would give them the coveted first position and that any other grocer would then have second thoughts, particularly if that second grocer would have poorer access, later premises delivery and higher rents etc.

    if the ice district grocer - regardless of who it is - is slow to the table, it's (a) probably because of store size, store location, access, signage, rents/cam costs, and delivery dates or (b) in actual fact the market simply isn't big enough yet and projections for when it will be aren't the same between landlord and tenant and neither one can make the other's numbers work.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  67. #1167

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    Add to the fact that there's already a large grocer on 109 st, 6 blocks away. You wouldn't end up with two grocers downtown, you'd have three.

    Chatting with a friend who used to live in Manhattan, she would shop at a local butcher, pick up bread from a bakery and stop at the corner bodega for milk, eggs, etc. She very rarely went to a large grocery store but she did shop every couple of days. She'd also hit the farmers market (yes, they have them in New York).

    A different kind of shopping than you find here for the most part.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    South Terwillegar! Another grocery store within walking distance to me!

    I'll have 4 grocery stores within walking distance of me way out here in the ****** burbs, and downtown barely has one.
    Too bad you didn’t support the Sobeys that used to be on the corner of 23 avenue and RHR. When did that close? Let me think. Oh yes about the time the one on 104 street.
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    It doesn’t surprise me that they are having a difficult time securing a tenant. Grocers profit margins are razor thin (about 1% on average) and they need to be able to operate on high volume sales to succeed. I see them being concerned about population density in the area, logistics issues due to location, distribution and access concerns, etc.

    I wouldn’t hedge my bets on putting a store there when the local competition has spent decades building up a customer base, have cheaper rent, and is more automobile friendly.

    Nor would I assume I’m going to be profitable by cutting into their revenue when I need all, if not more, of their customers to stay afloat.
    Last edited by Stevey_G; 15-05-2018 at 09:47 PM.

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    Some of these grocery chains don't help themselves with their pricing either. If I lived downtown and could save 20 percent on groceries by traveling a bit, I'd do so. I've been in Sobbeys and Safeway only a couple times since returning to Edmonton and with the exception of the weekly sale items, prices are pretty high in both . Sobbeys reminds me a bit of the Publix chain in the southern U.S. Fantastic customer service with a high quality bakery, meat and produce department but boy do you have to pay a lot more for things that aren't on sale. As a whole, maybe our downtown residents are just being smart shoppers and traveling a bit to get a better deal on their groceries and using the others for mostly essentials. You downtown C2E residents tell me if I'm wrong. I know you will..lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpnfantstk View Post
    Some of these grocery chains don't help themselves with their pricing either. If I lived downtown and could save 20 percent on groceries by traveling a bit, I'd do so. I've been in Sobbeys and Safeway only a couple times since returning to Edmonton and with the exception of the weekly sale items, prices are pretty high in both . Sobbeys reminds me a bit of the Publix chain in the southern U.S. Fantastic customer service with a high quality bakery, meat and produce department but boy do you have to pay a lot more for things that aren't on sale. As a whole, maybe our downtown residents are just being smart shoppers and traveling a bit to get a better deal on their groceries and using the others for mostly essentials. You downtown C2E residents tell me if I'm wrong. I know you will..lol
    Nobody will argue that. I do my shopping at Superstore on 118th. It's a huge savings for a 7 minute drive.
    There was no need to change that plaque. We are the City of Champions.

  72. #1172

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    Superstore is the way to go to save. No Frills is even better.Save On is one of the worst in terms of prices, even with the deals they have. I hope we hear/see something in the next few months for this site. Looking forward to this section of the development being complete.

  73. #1173

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    ^^^lease details often hold things up... ie. $/sqft.
    Exactly. A grocer likely has an agreement on principle to take the space already, but the final deal is dependent on the lease rate, which in turn may be affected by the height of the tower, and if it is a condo or rental property. This is especially true if the building podium is going to be a business condominium, in which case the grocer would have to either buy the space outright or negotiate a lease rate with the property owner, rather then the Katz group. If things go really south in the negotiation, the grocer still has the ability to walk away at this point, with no embarrassment or bad publicity. As much as we would like to have a public announcement, it makes sense for the grocer to keep its cards close to its chest until the deal is done.

  74. #1174

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    I can remember a time when there was a wonderful Woodwards Food Floor in Edmonton Centre (where there is now parking) and a smaller grocery outlet in the basement of the old Eatons. This was at the time when there were not as many near by condos. However, this was also before Save On, Superstore and Safeway in Oliver Square were all opened on the fringes of downtown.

    It seems to me the basement space worked well for them for many years and both closed for other reasons, the old Eatons building was torn down and Woodwards department stores went out of business.

    I think there is an unmet need and I do think the increasing downtown population will eventually make something similar more viable. I had hoped Sobeys would succeed, but I think their management really was not that competent and the concept was not quite right. Perhaps the final nail in their coffin was the 7-11 that opened across the street and sometimes had better prices. Shoppers seems to be more thoughtful and careful about their approach, but I think there needs to be something more. People go all the way to Save On, Safeway and Superstore because they don't really have a better choice right now, but it doesn't mean it has to be that way forever. Vision is being able to see beyond just what is there now.

  75. #1175

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    I also just drive to the Kingsway Superstore. I will also visit Lucky in Chinatown. Milk and eggs typically come from Shoppers.

    If a Walmart does go into Kingsway mall as planned, I'll see myself in there as well for the odd grocery run.

    Grocery store in Tower B is good for the optics, but it's not necessarily required imo. Especially if it's a Whole Foods. I'd shop the heck out of a No Frills here though.

  76. #1176
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpnfantstk View Post
    Some of these grocery chains don't help themselves with their pricing either. If I lived downtown and could save 20 percent on groceries by traveling a bit, I'd do so. I've been in Sobbeys and Safeway only a couple times since returning to Edmonton and with the exception of the weekly sale items, prices are pretty high in both . Sobbeys reminds me a bit of the Publix chain in the southern U.S. Fantastic customer service with a high quality bakery, meat and produce department but boy do you have to pay a lot more for things that aren't on sale. As a whole, maybe our downtown residents are just being smart shoppers and traveling a bit to get a better deal on their groceries and using the others for mostly essentials. You downtown C2E residents tell me if I'm wrong. I know you will..lol
    Once a month or so maybe, but I regularly go to get things for dinner or would rather pay a bit more to not have to get into my car and head there on a regular basis.
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    Mostly I shop at the Farmer's Market - Strathcona when I lived on the south-side and DT now that I live there.

    For things I can't get at market - usually Save-on.
    ... gobsmacked

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    Quote Originally Posted by B.ike View Post
    I also just drive to the Kingsway Superstore. I will also visit Lucky in Chinatown. Milk and eggs typically come from Shoppers.

    If a Walmart does go into Kingsway mall as planned, I'll see myself in there as well for the odd grocery run.

    Grocery store in Tower B is good for the optics, but it's not necessarily required imo. Especially if it's a Whole Foods. I'd shop the heck out of a No Frills here though.
    This. When I lived downtown, I went to cheaper places outside the core. Superstore, Costco. For staple items, I went to shoppers, 7/11, etc - eggs, milk.

    There are no cheap options in the core and for the most part, whenever a No Frills (or insert superstore brand) or Walmart is proposed in downtown areas, people seem to raise their noses. That would likely be the untapped market. Unfortunately, Sobeys DT went the opposite direction.

  79. #1179

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    A No Frills there would be very popular I'm sure but could they afford the rent?

  80. #1180

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    Or even a Superstore. Do the tradition cost savings on two floors; and do a high end organic on another 2 floors?
    " The strength of a man is in the stride he walks."

  81. #1181

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    I've contacted someone at a major Edmonton newspaper who's sympathetic to the issue of making downtown car free and walkable. They're doing some research on the status of the downtown grocer which we can all agree will be important once the thousands of people move in over the next few years. In my opinion there is an opportunity to provide a temporary subsidy to get one in, which a sunset clause once people move in over the next five years. This is an issue that needs to be brought to City Council, as they can put all the bike lanes in they want, but that won't truly make downtown car free. I'll let everyone know the status of the article when I hear more.

  82. #1182

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    Is the city going to subsidize grocery stores for people in other areas that don't live within walking distance of a grocery store? Based on the downtown model, it's 6 blocks to Save-On and that's the short blocks too. Or is only downtown going to be eligible for this? Anything else you need within walking distance that you want the rest of us to pick up the tab for?

  83. #1183

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Is the city going to subsidize grocery stores for people in other areas that don't live within walking distance of a grocery store? Based on the downtown model, it's 6 blocks to Save-On and that's the short blocks too. Or is only downtown going to be eligible for this? Anything else you need within walking distance that you want the rest of us to pick up the tab for?
    6 blocks is far when you're carrying 8 bags of groceries. I'm of the belief that a walkable downtown is a vibrant downtown.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mattyw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Is the city going to subsidize grocery stores for people in other areas that don't live within walking distance of a grocery store? Based on the downtown model, it's 6 blocks to Save-On and that's the short blocks too. Or is only downtown going to be eligible for this? Anything else you need within walking distance that you want the rest of us to pick up the tab for?
    6 blocks is far when you're carrying 8 bags of groceries. I'm of the belief that a walkable downtown is a vibrant downtown.
    Couple of options
    A) Walk to the store, buy as much groceries as you need, get an Uber/ Taxi home
    B) Buy a small car, use it at the weekends for grocery shopping or for buying big items that you cannot carry
    C) Grocery chains are getting into home delivery now
    D) Go grocery shopping every single day buying 1 bag each day
    E) Use a car sharing service

    Not trying to be smart, just coming up with some options. Some days I cycle to the store, some days its too cold/ wet/ windy - I drive. I'd like to be able to cycle to the store every time, but I just cannot.

    The city cannot be all things to all people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mattyw View Post
    I've contacted someone at a major Edmonton newspaper who's sympathetic to the issue of making downtown car free and walkable. They're doing some research on the status of the downtown grocer which we can all agree will be important once the thousands of people move in over the next few years. In my opinion there is an opportunity to provide a temporary subsidy to get one in, which a sunset clause once people move in over the next five years. This is an issue that needs to be brought to City Council, as they can put all the bike lanes in they want, but that won't truly make downtown car free. I'll let everyone know the status of the article when I hear more.
    nonononononononono...

    maybe i’m not clear enough here. NO!

    if there has to be a grocery subsidy - and i don’t believe that’s the case - provide free transit or free uber to anyone downtown going to or from a grocer downtown or not. at least that way you’re subsidizing those moving downtown and not a major grocery store chain or their landlord.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  86. #1186

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Add to the fact that there's already a large grocer on 109 st, 6 blocks away. You wouldn't end up with two grocers downtown, you'd have three.

    Chatting with a friend who used to live in Manhattan, she would shop at a local butcher, pick up bread from a bakery and stop at the corner bodega for milk, eggs, etc. She very rarely went to a large grocery store but she did shop every couple of days. She'd also hit the farmers market (yes, they have them in New York).

    A different kind of shopping than you find here for the most part.
    That is interesting. Seen both approaches. The one you mention above, and then that of people who get everything at Whole Foods. If everything (bakery, small grocery, butcher, etc) were to be located right in or very close to the arena district, that is one thing. But as a purchaser of a condo in Legends, part of the appeal was a quality grocery store. That is one place that I visit 2-3 times a week (partly for home and partly for my business). If the smaller independent stores mentioned above were to develop, I would see that happening AFTER all of the towers open so that potential boutique retailers can assess the potential customer draw. Too risky to go in early and pray that it all works out.

  87. #1187

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    Quote Originally Posted by mattyw View Post
    I've contacted someone at a major Edmonton newspaper who's sympathetic to the issue of making downtown car free and walkable. They're doing some research on the status of the downtown grocer which we can all agree will be important once the thousands of people move in over the next few years. In my opinion there is an opportunity to provide a temporary subsidy to get one in, which a sunset clause once people move in over the next five years. This is an issue that needs to be brought to City Council, as they can put all the bike lanes in they want, but that won't truly make downtown car free. I'll let everyone know the status of the article when I hear more.
    I can't believe this is even being mentioned let alone the possibility of it going to a higher level.

    Hundreds of millions of tax payer dollars have already gone into subsidizing this "world-class mixed-use development." Now after all of that you want to throw even more money at them?

  88. #1188

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    Quote Originally Posted by mattyw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Is the city going to subsidize grocery stores for people in other areas that don't live within walking distance of a grocery store? Based on the downtown model, it's 6 blocks to Save-On and that's the short blocks too. Or is only downtown going to be eligible for this? Anything else you need within walking distance that you want the rest of us to pick up the tab for?
    6 blocks is far when you're carrying 8 bags of groceries. I'm of the belief that a walkable downtown is a vibrant downtown.
    OK, how far is just far enough? Two blocks? Three? Does Downtown need subsidized grocery stores every 4-6 blocks? Or just for people closer to the ice district? If there's one that gets a subsidy at 103/103, what about the people on the south side of Jasper? Do we need one there too? How about in the Quarters? Closer to the legislature? Limit it just to grocery or open it to other things as well? Just how far should subsidizing go?

    And why provide a free transit service, assuming it is paid for by the city? You want the DBA to provide it? Sure, sounds good. You want everyone else to enable you to do your grocery shopping with no transportation charges? Nah, I don't think so.

    With the transit system redisign in the works, how about making the community routes a lower fare, say $1 each way. Your transfer from that could be used for $1 off to a crosstown/express/frequent route. However, if all you're doing is using your local route to go to and from the grocery store, not matter were in the city, then by all means, put a local route downtown as well. But downtown shouldn't expect people to pay extra for their lifestyle choices.
    Last edited by kkozoriz; 16-05-2018 at 10:14 PM.

  89. #1189

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    But downtown shouldn't expect people to pay extra for their lifestyle choices.[/QUOTE]

    But it's the healthy, sustainable choice.

  90. #1190
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattyw View Post
    ...

    But it's the healthy, sustainable choice.
    i get so tired of hearing that...

    it’s a (not “the”) healthy sustainable choice for some but not for everyone.

    summerside or leduc would be a healthier, more sustainable choice for a pilot and an industrial welder to raise a family.

    emerald hills or fort saskatchewan would be a healthier, more sustainable choice for a process engineer and a federal prison guard to raise their family.

    la perle or stony plain would be a healthier, more sustainable choice for a steel fabricator or cannabis plant tech working in acheson to raise their family.

    what might be a good choice for you at a certain stage in your life isn’t necessarily the best choice for everyone else.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    ^ Unfortunately words such as 'healthy", 'sustainable', 'walkable', 'density' are similar to words such as 'safety', 'security' . You get these types of words thrown about the place and they seem to over ride all other discussions. In fact, they are used to put down/ shout down or otherwise drown out other forms of thought... almost like they are encouraging groupthink.

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    On a side note I noticed just the other day a few workers on site doing some stuff. I really do hope though that things get straightened away asap so they can get at least the podium built.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

  93. #1193
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    But it's the healthy, sustainable choice.
    It’s actually the opposite of sustainable (which is a buzzword I really don’t like). ICE District will command high rent from a business who’s operation has extremely tight profit margins. Not to mention, said operation is entering a small market with plenty of competition who have a comparative advantage on two of the biggest factors: rent and ease of access.

    I understand everyone has a desire for Edmonton to be something it’s not, maybe one day we will become the walkable core you desire, and on the other hand, maybe we will become more automobile-centric with the advent of driverless vehicles and electro-motive technology. But to force a grocer into this location with bewildering policies is just going to ensure a huge, vacant space in following years.

  94. #1194
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    No more corporate welfare please.
    “Son, one day this will be an iconic structure shaping Edmonton’s skyline.”

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    Once enough people have moved downtown the big stores will be there.

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    Today. Still pretty quiet...


    ICE District by Chris Vazquez, on Flickr

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