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Thread: Downtown Parking Rates / Lots

  1. #1

    Default Downtown Parking Rates / Lots

    In the news today that downtown rates are going up $35 - $40. Apparently due to increased downtown development combined with the number of construction workers creating the same. I guess construction workers will get replaced by office workers, venue attendees and residents so it's not really like an opportunistic peaking demand issue.

    Maybe this is another expense that could be "app shared'. You buy a daily pass and then sell remaining time to someone coming into the lot. Or you buy two hours and only use one, click an app and someone nearby gets notified of the 1 hr ticket.

    Then there's all the underutilized building parking with assigned stalls. Maybe the mayor and city council should be sharing their stalls through some app. All in the name of efficiency and cost reduction.

    I imagine there must already apps in existence to find available parking lots and stalls in buildings that are owned by residents, etc. according to certain characteristics like available space, fee/rate, location, heated or not, safety rating, patrolled, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC
    I imagine there must already apps in existence to find available parking lots and stalls in buildings that are owned by residents, etc.
    Doubtful. It's generally not appropriate to share stalls in residential buildings with people who do not live there, and the vast majority of condos and apartments specifically ban that. Most of those buildings do not have on-site security nor was the building designed with outside access in mind. If someone can get in to the parkade, they can generally access the entire building. I would absolutely not be comfortable living in a residential building that allowed non-residents to park in it.

  3. #3

    Default Parking costs

    Get use to increased parking costs downtown....Muni airport is gone.....office buildings/condos/aprtmnts can be built higher.....more Corporations are interested in Edmonton. Sooo more jobs but more costs too.....humm??
    Time will tell on this new Alberta Government.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC
    I imagine there must already apps in existence to find available parking lots and stalls in buildings that are owned by residents, etc.
    Doubtful. It's generally not appropriate to share stalls in residential buildings with people who do not live there, and the vast majority of condos and apartments specifically ban that. Most of those buildings do not have on-site security nor was the building designed with outside access in mind. If someone can get in to the parkade, they can generally access the entire building. I would absolutely not be comfortable living in a residential building that allowed non-residents to park in it.
    A "lot" can change. In the future, more cameras, phone tracking, honesty rankings, or whatever etc could reduce or eliminate risk. The chance to make money off unused/free assets to offset other costs can be a powerful agent of change..

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by whynow99 View Post
    Get use to increased parking costs downtown....Muni airport is gone.....office buildings/condos/aprtmnts can be built higher.....more Corporations are interested in Edmonton. Sooo more jobs but more costs too.....humm??
    Strange, the opposite is happening in Calgary in this economy, prices are collapsing from their outrageous levels (some buildings were 650 a month) as the office towers are emptying out.

    http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-...ice-reductions

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by whynow99 View Post
    Get use to increased parking costs downtown....Muni airport is gone.....office buildings/condos/aprtmnts can be built higher.....more Corporations are interested in Edmonton. Sooo more jobs but more costs too.....humm??
    Strange, the opposite is happening in Calgary in this economy, prices are collapsing from their outrageous levels (some buildings were 650 a month) as the office towers are emptying out.

    http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-...ice-reductions
    Their private sector bureaucracy is taking a walloping. Maybe Calgary needed more government and we needed more head offices. Diversification at home.
    Last edited by KC; 02-03-2016 at 10:13 AM.

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    Increased parking rates? All the better reason to use public transit.

  8. #8

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    It is already a shared economy business model, not by the customer, but the operator.

    I am one such victim, using near former Associated Engineering building parking lot. I have a monthly pass but Diamond parking refuses to allocate a dedicated stall in that lot to anyone. Why? of course extra profit on the days people like me are not using the parking. Especially now builders working to re-skin that building are creating head ache for most of people in offices around there. Prices up, service down. Win Win for the parking operator.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by FamilyMan View Post
    It is already a shared economy business model, not by the customer, but the operator.

    I am one such victim, using near former Associated Engineering building parking lot. I have a monthly pass but Diamond parking refuses to allocate a dedicated stall in that lot to anyone. Why? of course extra profit on the days people like me are not using the parking. Especially now builders working to re-skin that building are creating head ache for most of people in offices around there. Prices up, service down. Win Win for the parking operator.
    Sounds like where I once parked for a couple years. Immediately south of the building. Crappy gravel lot with no assigned parking. You've paid your fee but some days you may have to find alternate parking. A nice little daily stressor everyone needs as they get to work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    Increased parking rates? All the better reason to use public transit.
    Thank you... or live closer to your workplace and walk
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    Ottawa-Edmonton-Vancouver-Edmonton

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Their private sector bureaucracy is taking a walloping. Maybe Calgary needed more government and we needed more head offices. Diversification at home.
    You are advocating Alberta government agencies be moved from the capital city Edmonton to Calgary???? Rather you than me On the corporate side, its becoming a wasteland in Calgary, with projections of 25% office vacancies soon, so there are plenty of cheap lease deals I am guessing, who knows, maybe even cheaper than Edmonton now, given Edmonton is a bit more diverse / less impacted in the downtown?
    Last edited by moahunter; 02-03-2016 at 11:45 AM.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Their private sector bureaucracy is taking a walloping. Maybe Calgary needed more government and we needed more head offices. Diversification at home.
    You are advocating Alberta government agencies be moved from the capital city Edmonton to Calgary???? Rather you than me On the corporate side, its becoming a wasteland in Calgary, with projections of 25% office vacancies soon, so there are plenty of cheap lease deals I am guessing, who knows, maybe even cheaper than Edmonton now, given Edmonton is a bit more diverse / less impacted in the downtown?
    I'm not advocating anything. I'm saying that government spending can slow economic declines and the private sector can speed economic growth. Each presents severe problems under different economic scenarios.

    Calgary's see through buildings and collapsing rental rates will soon be a bigger force threatening to drain from Edmonton even more office users.

  13. #13

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    The difference between post #9 and #10 is something called "Empathy". Rare to see these days...

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    Increased parking rates? All the better reason to use public transit.
    Thank you... or live closer to your workplace and walk
    That does nothing for downtown visitors, so please stop being so freaking myopic. It's getting really pathetic.

    Our parking situation is a mess. It's not terrible, just a mess. Parkades are poorly marked, have no exterior indication of vacancy or rates, and nothing about hours of operation. For the casual visitor, they're left to drive in circles (happens a LOT - you should know that), and when they do find a parkade, they don't know any of that particular parkade's details until they are inside on a one-way ramp.

    That's a brutal experience.

    Street parking is the same with the new meters. One sign tells you when pay parking is in effect. Another sign, which might not be immediately visible when standing in front of the first sign, tells you when parking is allowed in cases where the lane is traffic controlled by time of day. I witnessed someone park on the street just last night, get out, look at the signs (it was free, 8pm), then pull into a gravel lot and pay because they were confused.

    Also a brutal experience.

    But I guess the solution is to just move downtown.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    Increased parking rates? All the better reason to use public transit.
    Thank you... or live closer to your workplace and walk
    That does nothing for downtown visitors, so please stop being so freaking myopic. It's getting really pathetic.

    Our parking situation is a mess. It's not terrible, just a mess. Parkades are poorly marked, have no exterior indication of vacancy or rates, and nothing about hours of operation. For the casual visitor, they're left to drive in circles (happens a LOT - you should know that), and when they do find a parkade, they don't know any of that particular parkade's details until they are inside on a one-way ramp.

    That's a brutal experience.

    Street parking is the same with the new meters. One sign tells you when pay parking is in effect. Another sign, which might not be immediately visible when standing in front of the first sign, tells you when parking is allowed in cases where the lane is traffic controlled by time of day. I witnessed someone park on the street just last night, get out, look at the signs (it was free, 8pm), then pull into a gravel lot and pay because they were confused.

    Also a brutal experience.

    But I guess the solution is to just move downtown.
    As I've long stated, I'd like to see the City do safety, theft, etc. ratings (with big caveats of course) on different parking lots and have them prominently post some sort of 5-star rating plus their fees. Maybe a user app could get away with it.

  16. #16

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    An app is a terrible idea as it would require usage while driving, which is illegal. We need some good old fashioned exterior electronic signage that displays all relevant details at a glance to drivers.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Our parking situation is a mess. It's not terrible, just a mess. Parkades are poorly marked, have no exterior indication of vacancy or rates, and nothing about hours of operation. For the casual visitor, they're left to drive in circles (happens a LOT - you should know that), and when they do find a parkade, they don't know any of that particular parkade's details until they are inside on a one-way ramp.

    That's a brutal experience.
    Yeah, Top_Dawg hears ya chmilz.

    But these are run by private interests so they are free to morgentaler it however they want.

    That's their bizness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Street parking is the same with the new meters. One sign tells you when pay parking is in effect. Another sign, which might not be immediately visible when standing in front of the first sign, tells you when parking is allowed in cases where the lane is traffic controlled by time of day. I witnessed someone park on the street just last night, get out, look at the signs (it was free, 8pm), then pull into a gravel lot and pay because they were confused.

    Also a brutal experience.


    But this makes Top_Dawg laugh.

    The city is game to pissing hundreds of thousands of dollars away, over several years, on some colossally stupid wayfinding initiative.

    And yet they can't even word a piddly azz sign to make the parking rules understandable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FamilyMan View Post
    The difference between post #9 and #10 is something called "Empathy". Rare to see these days...

    "Empathy" for the people who can apparently afford to spend hundreds of dollars a month on a parking pass downtown, on top of the several hundred dollars more of car payments, gas, and insurance?

    It is $91.50 for a monthly unlimited transit pass that takes you to every single neighbourhood in the entire city. No matter where you are in Edmonton, it will take you under an hour to get downtown on work days - not much more than you're going to spend sitting in traffic in rush hour. Oh, and the pass is tax deductible.

    Why should people have "empathy" for those who have to pay a little bit more on top of the exorbitant driving costs they willingly choose to shoulder?

    Driving to park downtown is expensive, guys. Big shocker.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    Increased parking rates? All the better reason to use public transit.
    Thank you... or live closer to your workplace and walk
    That does nothing for downtown visitors, so please stop being so freaking myopic. It's getting really pathetic.

    Our parking situation is a mess. It's not terrible, just a mess. Parkades are poorly marked, have no exterior indication of vacancy or rates, and nothing about hours of operation. For the casual visitor, they're left to drive in circles (happens a LOT - you should know that), and when they do find a parkade, they don't know any of that particular parkade's details until they are inside on a one-way ramp.

    That's a brutal experience.

    Street parking is the same with the new meters. One sign tells you when pay parking is in effect. Another sign, which might not be immediately visible when standing in front of the first sign, tells you when parking is allowed in cases where the lane is traffic controlled by time of day. I witnessed someone park on the street just last night, get out, look at the signs (it was free, 8pm), then pull into a gravel lot and pay because they were confused.

    Also a brutal experience.

    But I guess the solution is to just move downtown.
    Calm down, overly simplistic and myopic.

    We can certainly do a much better job at wayfinding, signage, identification, orientation, availability etc. Hell, 20 years ago in Geneva we had to park downtown and the signs told us how many stalls when we approach and then once in the parkade each stall had a green or red light.

    We can do better, should do better and will be doing just that.

    BUT, transit is a good option that many choose not to use and people can consciously make other decisions of where they live or stay.
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  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    Increased parking rates? All the better reason to use public transit.
    Meh, I'd rather not go downtown, than use transit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    An app is a terrible idea as it would require usage while driving, which is illegal. We need some good old fashioned exterior electronic signage that displays all relevant details at a glance to drivers.
    I agree that we need exterior signage, but I'm sure an app could be made driver friendly. Somehow GPS navigators seem to make it work.
    Where the app would really come in handy is for event nights at Rogers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jizzaldo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    Increased parking rates? All the better reason to use public transit.
    Meh, I'd rather not go downtown, than use transit.
    It isn't that bad. I think you'd be surprised.

    Try taking it sometime. Maybe go downtown for an afternoon oil game on a weekend. Have a couple beers watching it (since you don't have to worry about driving home), and experience the ride.

    It isn't bad at all. People in Edmonton routinely overestimate the time it takes to use transit, and underestimate the time it takes to drive places. In almost all situations during commute times you'll find that timing each route results in very similar time expenditure.

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by jizzaldo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    Increased parking rates? All the better reason to use public transit.
    Meh, I'd rather not go downtown, than use transit.
    Good news is, there are always other "world class" alternatives like WEM or South Edmonton Common, no parking fees at all

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jizzaldo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    Increased parking rates? All the better reason to use public transit.
    Meh, I'd rather not go downtown, than use transit.
    Good news is, there are always other "world class" alternatives like WEM or South Edmonton Common, no parking fees at all
    Pretty much.

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by FamilyMan View Post
    The difference between post #9 and #10 is something called "Empathy". Rare to see these days...

    "Empathy" for the people who can apparently afford to spend hundreds of dollars a month on a parking pass downtown, on top of the several hundred dollars more of car payments, gas, and insurance?

    It is $91.50 for a monthly unlimited transit pass that takes you to every single neighbourhood in the entire city. No matter where you are in Edmonton, it will take you under an hour to get downtown on work days - not much more than you're going to spend sitting in traffic in rush hour. Oh, and the pass is tax deductible.

    Why should people have "empathy" for those who have to pay a little bit more on top of the exorbitant driving costs they willingly choose to shoulder?

    Driving to park downtown is expensive, guys. Big shocker.
    I didn't ask for your sympathy. Perhaps you don't know what empathy means?

    It is ironic that despite your intentions, it is exactly people like you and IanO who make DownTown not-family-friendly. You simply don't understand the choices a family has to make. It is not about if I can afford it. My post was a rant on the mis-match between price and quality of service, not just the price. But don't you worry, this was my last post on this thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jizzaldo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    Increased parking rates? All the better reason to use public transit.
    Meh, I'd rather not go downtown, than use transit.
    Could I ask why so? Inconvenience? Other options? Other issues? Genuinely curious.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FamilyMan View Post
    It is ironic that despite your intentions, it is exactly people like you and IanO who make DownTown not-family-friendly. You simply don't understand the choices a family has to make. It is not about if I can afford it. My post was a rant on the mis-match between price and quality of service, not just the price. But don't you worry, this was my last post on this thread.
    Sorry sir, please go on.
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  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by FamilyMan View Post
    The difference between post #9 and #10 is something called "Empathy". Rare to see these days...

    "Empathy" for the people who can apparently afford to spend hundreds of dollars a month on a parking pass downtown, on top of the several hundred dollars more of car payments, gas, and insurance?

    It is $91.50 for a monthly unlimited transit pass that takes you to every single neighbourhood in the entire city. No matter where you are in Edmonton, it will take you under an hour to get downtown on work days - not much more than you're going to spend sitting in traffic in rush hour. Oh, and the pass is tax deductible.

    Why should people have "empathy" for those who have to pay a little bit more on top of the exorbitant driving costs they willingly choose to shoulder?

    Driving to park downtown is expensive, guys. Big shocker.
    Well, when I parked downtown, my parents were in a long term care facility and more times than I care to remember I'd get calls saying: you'd better get here - soon. My wife and I would also tag team taking, and getting our girl from daycare because alternating weeks I started at 7am or 9:30 am and then, for both of us, it was pretty unpredictable who'd be working late. Some days I'd start at 7 am and get home at 11pm. Then there the various activities etc. that started at various times in the evening.

    How do you manage getting your kids to school and then getting to work?

    As for downtown being just for the poor, that is very incorrect. I know one couple that I would guess are quite well off that have moved downtown after their children left the home. In fact I think a lot of people living downtown spend a lot of their disposable income on fuel and transportation. It's just that they are spending it on aircraft and not cars. Then there's the restaurant expenditures. For meals, that could be had at home for $10 or $20, out of home expenditures of $40 or $50 or more are spent in a restaurant.
    Last edited by KC; 02-03-2016 at 06:27 PM.

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jizzaldo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    Increased parking rates? All the better reason to use public transit.
    Meh, I'd rather not go downtown, than use transit.
    Could I ask why so? Inconvenience? Other options? Other issues? Genuinely curious.
    Mostly inconvenience. It's easier and faster to get in my vehicle, drive downtown, park, get what I want and drive home. If I were to take transit, I have 2 options:

    Scenario 1:
    Get on a bus, after waiting for it at a bus stop. Often, but not always in poor weather, and paying a fare. Then possibly (probably) transferring to other forms of transit, either LRT or another bus. And of course after waiting for that bus or LRT car arrive. Then take transit to the closest stop near my destination and walk once again in possibly poor weather to my destination. Then only have to repeat it all to get home.

    Scenario 2:
    Basically the same as Scenario 1, only differing in having to drive to the LRT terminal rather than taking a bus, which basically in my mind negates the benefit of transit.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm quite familiar with downtown, and usually enjoy my time down there, but if it's too inconvenient, I'm just not going there. Why would I?

    edit: And if parking rates aren't worth the trip, then I'll probably just stop going altogether. Recently I went to The Blue Plate Diner with my wife and children and parking was a hassle, especially taking a 4 year old with me walking 2 blocks because I refuse to pay $20/hr for parking. The meal itself was unfortunately nothing to write home about either.
    Last edited by jizzaldo; 03-03-2016 at 09:26 AM.

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    Totally understandable and certainly a barrier for some it seems.

    After 6 is still free... but yes, if people are going to make the effort, we need that effort to be rewarded with a good experience.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jizzaldo View Post
    Recently I went to The Blue Plate Diner with my wife and children and parking was a hassle, especially taking a 4 year old with me walking 2 blocks because I refuse to pay $20/hr for parking. The meal itself was unfortunately nothing to write home about either.


    Classic.

    In Top_Dawg's experience that's almost invariably the case at these cornholio joints.

  32. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jizzaldo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    Increased parking rates? All the better reason to use public transit.
    Meh, I'd rather not go downtown, than use transit.
    Could I ask why so? Inconvenience? Other options? Other issues? Genuinely curious.

    I'm not a regular ETS user so I don't have a pass. For a 1hr downtown visit, transit costs more than parking, takes twice as long, and only leaves every half an hour. Driving is a better option by every single metric. If driving downtown becomes an incredible burden, I probably just won't go. My time and effort is better spent doing other things than sitting on transit for 2hrs for a 1hr meeting/hang out.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    It isn't bad at all. People in Edmonton routinely overestimate the time it takes to use transit, and underestimate the time it takes to drive places. In almost all situations during commute times you'll find that timing each route results in very similar time expenditure.
    Going downtown or anywhere near an LRT station in rush hour? Yes, transit will be the same time or less from most places. Start and destination both within a few blocks of a capital line LRT stop? Transit is probably the fastest option just about any time of day. Any other time or place? Not so much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FamilyMan View Post
    It is ironic that despite your intentions, it is exactly people like you and IanO who make DownTown not-family-friendly. You simply don't understand the choices a family has to make. It is not about if I can afford it. My post was a rant on the mis-match between price and quality of service, not just the price. But don't you worry, this was my last post on this thread.
    Uh.. yeah. No. It is exactly the opposite. The hordes of entitled drivers who demand cheap parking have directly caused downtown to be non-family friendly.

    Why? Their selfish demands and refusal to use our fantastic public transit system have led to the desolate sea of surface parking lots in the whole downtown.

    Want cheap parking? It sure as hell isn't going to be in a nice parkade or underground, because those things are bloody expensive to build. It is going to be a grimy gravel surface lot that is ugly and unsafe. It is going to be full of oft-burglarized cars in the day, and empty, dark, and miserable at night. That is what you are asking for.

    A family friendly downtown is one that is safe, human-scale, and rich with amenities.

    Your car-addled dystopia of 6 lane roads, speeding douchebags, and cheap parking is the antithesis of a family friendly downtown.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    Want cheap parking? It sure as hell isn't going to be in a nice parkade or underground, because those things are bloody expensive to build. It is going to be a grimy gravel surface lot that is ugly and unsafe. It is going to be full of oft-burglarized cars in the day, and empty, dark, and miserable at night. That is what you are asking for.


    Top_Dawg hates to quibble...

    but people are much safer and vehicles are far less likely to be burglarized in ugly grimy gravel surface lots than in parkades.

    Top_Dawg's jus' sayin'.

  36. #36
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    Family man has a good point. Not necessarily about the quantity of parking, but about parking lot management.

    Not having a parking spot available after paying for a monthly pass is a major inconvenience, and it's not the way parking should be managed. Maybe it means that parking should be temporarily more expensive in that location or the owner should be restricting daily parking of monthly paid customers regularly can't get a spot.

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    Downtown refuses free parking then wonders why WEM attracts 250,000 shoppers a day. (Just one example) Could not have anything to do with a 25,000 spaces free parkade. Of course not. Remove the parking meters and build some free parkades and businesses will notice a surge in customers. Wake up to reality already. LRT has served downtown since 1978 and it sure did not do DT much good for business all those years.
    Last edited by Drumbones; 03-03-2016 at 11:51 AM.

  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by FamilyMan View Post
    It is ironic that despite your intentions, it is exactly people like you and IanO who make DownTown not-family-friendly. You simply don't understand the choices a family has to make. It is not about if I can afford it. My post was a rant on the mis-match between price and quality of service, not just the price. But don't you worry, this was my last post on this thread.
    Uh.. yeah. No. It is exactly the opposite. The hordes of entitled drivers who demand cheap parking have directly caused downtown to be non-family friendly.

    Why? Their selfish demands and refusal to use our fantastic public transit system have led to the desolate sea of surface parking lots in the whole downtown.

    Want cheap parking? It sure as hell isn't going to be in a nice parkade or underground, because those things are bloody expensive to build. It is going to be a grimy gravel surface lot that is ugly and unsafe. It is going to be full of oft-burglarized cars in the day, and empty, dark, and miserable at night. That is what you are asking for.

    A family friendly downtown is one that is safe, human-scale, and rich with amenities.

    Your car-addled dystopia of 6 lane roads, speeding douchebags, and cheap parking is the antithesis of a family friendly downtown.
    Well FamilyMan

    After reading the above quote I am now more in agreement with you not less.

    I clearly get you point FamilyMan.

    T

  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    Downtown refuses free parking then wonders why WEM attracts 250,000 shoppers a day. (Just one example)
    Retail is pretty simple...

    Don't give the customer what they want....they go somewhere else.

    Then you accept the results you've achieved. Pretty simple really...really it is.

    T

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    Free parking for a major city in their Downtown... um no. Heck, we have free after 6pm if you want that. The key is to create reasons and destinations for people to drive demand. If it is simply a mediocre place to be, free parking or not, people wont come.

    Mind you, the whole mall discussion is an entirely different thing.
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  41. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Free parking for a major city in their Downtown... um no. Heck, we have free after 6pm if you want that. The key is to create reasons and destinations for people to drive demand. If it is simply a mediocre place to be, free parking or not, people wont come.

    Mind you, the whole mall discussion is an entirely different thing.
    I don't think you're getting it Ian...

    It's not about being free of even parking by itself...it is about being reasonable and convenient with needed amenities, unless you do not want that demographic of customer which is a business choice and if that's the choice fine. But then don't complain about that demographic not buying into downtown.

    You can have all the cool stuff you want...but if it is expensive and a pain in the butt don't expect families with kids to come scrambling.

    Just the way it is.

    T

  42. #42

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    The whole notion that having kids means driving everywhere is complete bullshizzle. You said it yourself FamilyMan - families make choices. I choose to teach my kids how to use the transit system so they can be independent, participatory citizens who can make their own choices.
    My 9 year old is utterly capable of using transit to get to any of her favourite EPL branches around the city. And she's super excited about doing so when she turns ten. By a long shot my greatest concern as she navigates her city - traffic.

  43. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by ajs View Post
    The whole notion that having kids means driving everywhere is complete bullshizzle. You said it yourself FamilyMan - families make choices. I choose to teach my kids how to use the transit system so they can be independent, participatory citizens who can make their own choices.
    My 9 year old is utterly capable of using transit to get to any of her favourite EPL branches around the city. And she's super excited about doing so when she turns ten. By a long shot my greatest concern as she navigates her city - traffic.
    We all make our own choices and there is no real right or wrong. Example...I would not allow my 10 year to use transit without a parent, doesn't make me right or you wrong makes us different.

    But when you start talking about attracting people to a destination (downtown) it's business and what demographics you want to attract.

    Don't provide what families that choose to drive for their own reason feel they need in terms of cost/amenities....don't expect them to come.

    You want to argue how great Transit is vs Driving...that is a different discussion and debate based on peoples belief structure and personal values of time/convenience.

    One is a business issue/One is a ideology....my comments surround the business side of the equation in this case.

    As it see it
    T

  44. #44

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    At ten your more then comfortable with letting your daughter travel anywhere in the city on transit? Seems a bit crazy to me. Especially when you say traffic is your biggest concern.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Hinderks View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    Downtown refuses free parking then wonders why WEM attracts 250,000 shoppers a day. (Just one example)
    Retail is pretty simple...

    Don't give the customer what they want....they go somewhere else.

    Then you accept the results you've achieved. Pretty simple really...really it is.

    T
    Look at the actual experience of the typical north american downtown. Downtowns that bent over backwards to accommodate parking (including ours) were left with little left to actually attract people. It's the rare exceptions like a show & shine or A&W on a summer saturday night that peove the general rule:

    People don't come for the parking. And the truth is that accommodating parking for all, and especially free parking for all, Destroys places. Look around. Generally, the more space dedicated to cars the uglier it is. More Cars, the fewer people actually spending time.

    There's an alternate lesson that we can learn from WEM and places like it, and that is that a place where you can walk and shop for blocks without smelling exhaust fumes, waiting to cross a street, feeling endangered by drivers, or dealing with the dust and mess that car-streets generate; a places with no garage entrances or loading docks interrupting the "street-front" can be incredibly attractive, so much so that visitors don't mind the fact that for many of the stores the closest parking is essentially blocks away. it an environment where, unlike at a power centre people don't get back into their cars to get to the Bay after they're done at Simons.

    That's the lesson of the mall that Downtown needs to emulate.

  46. #46

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    Many, many businesses exist and thrive downtown, so, perhaps they are all ideologically based but I assume some are in it for the money.

    And if driving isn't capital I ideology than I don't know what it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    At ten your more then comfortable with letting your daughter travel anywhere in the city on transit? Seems a bit crazy to me. Especially when you say traffic is your biggest concern.
    Kids take transit in cities all over the world at many ages.
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  48. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by ajs View Post
    Many, many businesses exist and thrive downtown, so, perhaps they are all ideologically based but I assume some are in it for the money.
    Completely agree...but how many target the demographic we are discussing?

    5%-10%-30%, I don't believe the majority are or currently will. IMO

    T

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    Tom et al.

    Edmonton might be one of the easiest and least costly Downtowns to get to, maneuver in, explore, park etc. The real issue in my mind is that many simply are not familiar with it, with pay parking and are used to pulling up and into WEM or SEC or Southgate, a vast free parking lot and going on from there.
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  50. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    At ten your more then comfortable with letting your daughter travel anywhere in the city on transit? Seems a bit crazy to me. Especially when you say traffic is your biggest concern.
    Kids take transit in cities all over the world at many ages.
    That's nice...not mine unescorted.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    At ten your more then comfortable with letting your daughter travel anywhere in the city on transit? Seems a bit crazy to me. Especially when you say traffic is your biggest concern.
    Then we need to build a city where transit riders don't have to be scared of traffic. Limited parking, and limiting traffic in high-pedestrian areas by, among other strategies, limiting parking in the core of the area would make the actual destination much safer to get around.

  52. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Tom et al.

    Edmonton might be one of the easiest and least costly Downtowns to get to, maneuver in, explore, park etc. The real issue in my mind is that many simply are not familiar with it, with pay parking and are used to pulling up and into WEM or SEC or Southgate, a vast free parking lot and going on from there.
    If that's the case you are competing with WEM...how do you plan to supply the amenities to compete and attract the demographic in question in a cost competitive way? Doesn't have to be free...but the audience has to perceive the value in what they are getting giving them a reason to change.

    T

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Hinderks View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ajs View Post
    Many, many businesses exist and thrive downtown, so, perhaps they are all ideologically based but I assume some are in it for the money.
    Completely agree...but how many target the demographic we are discussing?

    5%-10%-30%, I don't believe the majority are or currently will. IMO

    T
    Sorry, which demographic were we discussing?

    I thought it was people in general, so that the child/youth who would be able to access a store if their concerned parents didn't have to worry about inattentive drivers should be valued at least equally with the person who won't go if they can't park for free.

  54. #54
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    It is pretty clear that there are two crowds here:

    1) The people who live downtown or go there regularly.

    2) The people who might go downtown once every few months.

    Guess which one feels entitled to cheap parking, even if it means stalling development and maintaining the gritty surface parking lots that have drained the core dry for the last 30 years?

    Tell us more about how badly businesses need disgusting, gloomy lots that blow grit and track mud all around their shops? Tell us more about how they will lose business if they are developed into buildings that have thousands more customers? Get a reality check.

  55. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post

    Why? Their selfish demands and refusal to use our fantastic public transit system have led to the desolate sea of surface parking lots in the whole downtown.
    Yeahhh... as a regular transit user, our transit system sucks. Unreliable, infrequent, roundabout routes that take way longer than needed. As much as I hate to say it, we have to make more than just a vibrant downtown because that won't matter I there's no easy way to get there. Unless we have easy, fast and reliable transit, it doesn't matter how great downtown is because it will be too much of a hassle for most people to visit

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    Where do you use transit? You can get from most neighbourhoods in the city to downtown in under 30 minutes. Maybe if you're living in a suburb outside the henday, or are trying to get to south edmonton common.

    I have gripes with transit, specifically how we cater to greenfield suburbanites that hardly use it instead of improving frequency in the core, but the majority of the city is still serviced very well.

  57. #57

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    Posts 53/54/56 are exactly why I tend to ignore Downtown discussions in general

    Thank you for reminding me there is no such thing as a civil discussion on these issues.

    This should be a simple discussion about business choices...but it appears it can't be.

    Rant away I'm done being reasonable...buh bye

    T

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    You aren't having a civil discussion, Thomas. You are sitting there telling us that we should deal with surface parking lots in our backyards so you can continue driving downtown on the cheap once in a while.

    Then you are justifying it with weak arguments about "businesses". Because we all know businesses would rather have parking for a dollar an hour cheaper, than new buildings containing thousands of potential customers right next door.

    This is our neighbourhood you are discussing here. You are literally, straight up asking us to maintain one of the most unappealing aspects of our neighbourhood for your ease of parking. Do you think we like walking through lots full of either mud or blowing dust/rocks depending on the season? Do you think it is nice to see that out our windows?

    You need a reality check here, bigtime.

  59. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    Where do you use transit? You can get from most neighbourhoods in the city to downtown in under 30 minutes. Maybe if you're living in a suburb outside the henday, or are trying to get to south edmonton common.

    I have gripes with transit, specifically how we cater to greenfield suburbanites that hardly use it instead of improving frequency in the core, but the majority of the city is still serviced very well.
    I live a 20 minute walk from downtown. If I was just going downtown that would be fine, but if I'm going somewhere (like the University, which I do everyday), I don't want to spend that time walking, so I take the bus, where I transfer to LRT downtown.
    Except the bus only comes every half an hour.
    And sometimes it comes 5-7 minutes early, so I miss it and have to walk and am late.
    And sometimes it comes 10 minutes late, so I'm late.
    And sometimes it doesn't come at all.
    My point being that busing is even an issue for people close to the core. It seems like as soon as you have to make a transfer, which would be the majority of users that don't live along main routes such as the 8,9, or 7, catching the bus and getting to where you want seems to become a game of chance. Our bus system just isn't there yet, and there for a multitude of reasons, but the reality remains that it has to improve.

    Its kind of like a chicken vs. egg thing. The bus system sucks so no one uses it, but no one uses it because the bus system sucks. As much as I wish people would start using buses I really don't blame them. With wait times it can take 45 minutes to get home, for whats less than a 10 minute drive.
    Last edited by seamusmcduffs; 03-03-2016 at 03:26 PM.

  60. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    You aren't having a civil discussion, Thomas. You are sitting there telling us that we should deal with surface parking lots in our backyards so you can continue driving downtown on the cheap once in a while.

    Then you are justifying it with weak arguments about "businesses". Because we all know businesses would rather have parking for a dollar an hour cheaper, than new buildings containing thousands of potential customers right next door.

    This is our neighbourhood you are discussing here. You are literally, straight up asking us to maintain one of the most unappealing aspects of our neighbourhood for your ease of parking. Do you think we like walking through lots full of either mud or blowing dust/rocks depending on the season? Do you think it is nice to see that out our windows?

    You need a reality check here, bigtime.
    No read what was written

    I didn't tell anyone to do anything...I very clearly said make a decision and live with the results.

    If you choose not to provide amenities for a particular market segment...you won't get that market segment.

    If you want that market segment figure out how you are going to provide the amenities they want.

    Simple. Didn't tell anyone to put anything anywhere.

  61. #61
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    Parking is not an amenity that anyone will go downtown for, and generally it's not the kind of concession/convenience that should be granted to encourage trips downtown for amenities that exist city-wide.

    What benefit is it to the city to have people travel downtown for services then can get closer to home? It's not. If downtown is healthy enough to have enough local day-to-day amenities on it's own (it's getting there) then concentrating those services in one place starves other places and increases trips, and if downtown isn't healthy, generally a big part of the reason is that accommodating all those trips from elsewhere in the city cost downtown the features that once made it attractive - providing parking on the surface takes up space that could otherwise be used for actual local amenities or regional attractions, providing it underground or otherwise in structures makes downtown amenities more expensive, and having all those cars makes just being downtown much less pleasant.

    I think the misunderstanding is that it sometimes reads as though you are saying downtown should acommodate those people looking for a nice parking lot to enjoy.

    And people who appreciate downtown for being downtown say no, those people's visits aren't worth it.

  62. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Hinderks View Post
    Posts 53/54/56 are exactly why I tend to ignore Downtown discussions in general

    Thank you for reminding me there is no such thing as a civil discussion on these issues.

    This should be a simple discussion about business choices...but it appears it can't be.

    Rant away I'm done being reasonable...buh bye

    T
    This whole thread got derailed big time.... Goes from parking lots to an argument on transit.

    The op mentioned a parking app which would be great... I know I've seen some iStall.ca signs going up everywhere. Not quite a parking app but their web based parking site is pretty awesome. It's the same company that does parking for one of my condos... Guess they also do paid parking and commercial properties as well.

  63. #63

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    Highlander

    And people who appreciate downtown for being downtown say no, those people's visits aren't worth it.
    And that is a perfect example of making a choice and recognizing what you're giving up and what you are getting.

  64. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Hinderks View Post
    Posts 53/54/56 are exactly why I tend to ignore Downtown discussions in general

    Thank you for reminding me there is no such thing as a civil discussion on these issues.

    This should be a simple discussion about business choices...but it appears it can't be.

    Rant away I'm done being reasonable...buh bye

    T
    This whole thread got derailed big time.... Goes from parking lots to an argument on transit.

    The op mentioned a parking app which would be great... I know I've seen some iStall.ca signs going up everywhere. Not quite a parking app but their web based parking site is pretty awesome. It's the same company that does parking for one of my condos... Guess they also do paid parking and commercial properties as well.
    Yeah, I didn't expect a parking lot rate increase would be a deal breaker for so many people in terms of choosing to or not to live downtown, or take a bus or not.

    I think parking apps of some kind are a natural progression of somehow making life easier and less stressful or costly or both.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Hinderks View Post

    No read what was written

    I didn't tell anyone to do anything...I very clearly said make a decision and live with the results.

    If you choose not to provide amenities for a particular market segment...you won't get that market segment.

    If you want that market segment figure out how you are going to provide the amenities they want.

    Simple. Didn't tell anyone to put anything anywhere.
    The implication of your arguments is obvious.

    What would you have us believe, that you just happen to be making arguments to the benefit of drivers, that require surface lots, but you aren't advocating those things?

    That is ridiculous. If you are going to come out and make arguments that have the implication of maintaining the surface lots, you need to follow them through and stand up for what you are saying. You can't make the argument then back off and complain about the tone of conversation when people get upset with the implication.

    The simple fact is that what you are arguing here directly requires maintaining a large surface parking lot supply to happen. If you want cheap parking, you need cheap lots. There is no way around it.

    People who live or spend a lot of time downtown are going to be rightfully defensive about that argument. I don't think you realize how much of a scourge it is to have these disgusting lots in your neighbourhood.

  66. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Hinderks View Post

    No read what was written

    I didn't tell anyone to do anything...I very clearly said make a decision and live with the results.

    If you choose not to provide amenities for a particular market segment...you won't get that market segment.

    If you want that market segment figure out how you are going to provide the amenities they want.

    Simple. Didn't tell anyone to put anything anywhere.
    The implication of your arguments is obvious.

    What would you have us believe, that you just happen to be making arguments to the benefit of drivers, that require surface lots, but you aren't advocating those things?

    That is ridiculous. If you are going to come out and make arguments that have the implication of maintaining the surface lots, you need to follow them through and stand up for what you are saying. You can't make the argument then back off and complain about the tone of conversation when people get upset with the implication.

    The simple fact is that what you are arguing here directly requires maintaining a large surface parking lot supply to happen. If you want cheap parking, you need cheap lots. There is no way around it.

    People who live or spend a lot of time downtown are going to be rightfully defensive about that argument. I don't think you realize how much of a scourge it is to have these disgusting lots in your neighbourhood.
    That's crap

    I don't go downtown as any one that's followed my posts over the years knows.

    I have no interest in downtown unless it's business, the art gallery once twice a year and maybe the new provincial museum once twice a year when it opens.

    Beyond that it offers nothing for my family or I and the "tude" on here has soured me to the point where I will now avoid at all costs, now I really don't care about downtown at all.

    Congratulations on creating another convert (sarcasm), you've done a fine job.

    But I am tired of DT boosters expecting everyone to be a DT booster.

    If you don't want suburbanites DT fine, it's a fair choice. But don't complain when they don't come or support DT.

    The implications of my arguments has been "make a choice and live with it" period.

    But you've now taken me from a supporter who doesn't go to one that doesn't go and actively won't support...good work.

    T

  67. #67

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    I expect self driving cars and uber-isting will not be kind to downtown parking lots. This will free up land for more marginal buildings...

    And I'd expect future towers will get shorter than they would otherwise be since office space, residential, etc will be able to spread out.

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    ^^ That is exactly my point, Thomas. A guy who admittedly doesn't care about downtown, and never goes downtown decides he is going to complain about parking prices downtown.

    Well, that complaint has implications. Perhaps because you never go downtown, you didn't realize them.

    People don't get to make arguments in a vacuum. If you complain about parking downtown, you are entering into a discussion about parking in downtown, and the implications of your argument are going to be fleshed out.

    The "take my ball and go home" attitude and refusal to accept that your argument has a wider implication are highly frustrating. No one is attacking you personally, they are pointing out that the attitude you are presenting has serious ramifications that will perpetuate an issue that we are dealing with in our neighbourhood.

    So, I do apologize if you were truly "only talking about business". Just please realize that when you raise a key issue that constantly undergoes hot debate in someone's neighbourhood, they are probably going to engage it. It has nothing to do with a "downtown attitude" or poor "tone of conversation", it has to do with the fact that you have chosen to engage in a serious issue.
    Last edited by Jaerdo; 03-03-2016 at 07:10 PM.

  69. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    ^^ That is exactly my point, Thomas. A guy who admittedly doesn't care about downtown, and never goes downtown.
    That's not quite what Thomas said, try reading all of what he said. I'm pretty sure he goes for business, and an Art Gallery he cares about, and will for the provincial museum.

    This thread is all a bit odd to me. I wish there was some sort of middle ground where some easier, better priced, and more accessible parking was available for people visiting, yet still appropriately priced parking for people who work there, while still being some restrictions / requirements so that there are fewer unsightly parking lots.
    Last edited by moahunter; 03-03-2016 at 07:46 PM.

  70. #70

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    Jaerdo

    You obviously don't read.

    1) Show me one comment I made any comment about parking prices...neat trick there are none.
    Matter of fact I commented to IanO that parking did not need to be free, but there had to be at least a percieved value.

    2) Where did I complain about parking...again I didn't. I have been clear that choices have to be made regarding "who" you want to attract downtown and how you will accomodate them. And if the choices are not to accomodate them don't complain if they don't show up .

    3) You have very directly been attacking me and attributing comments I have not made to me and you can't apparently read.

    As I stated in the last line of post #66
    But you've taken me from a supporter that doesn't go to one doesn't go and actively won't support
    While I used to care...again post #66...you and a few others here have actively driven me to someone that as of this thread doesn't care.

    And it is not a "downtown attitude" but everything to do with the attitude of you and a few others.

    You shouldn't be worried about me taking my ball home, you should be worried about me keeping my money and support home thanks to you and the few of "your" cadre. I'll actively promote others to do the same.

    Congrats and buh bye to this thread.
    Last edited by Thomas Hinderks; 03-03-2016 at 07:44 PM.

  71. #71

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    What is the going rate for expensive parking in Downtown? I use Milner Library parkade when I feel like paying (no walking, still after work hours tho) and streetside when I want it for free after 6pm (which is most of thee time).
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

  72. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    Where do you use transit? You can get from most neighbourhoods in the city to downtown in under 30 minutes. Maybe if you're living in a suburb outside the henday, or are trying to get to south edmonton common.

    I have gripes with transit, specifically how we cater to greenfield suburbanites that hardly use it instead of improving frequency in the core, but the majority of the city is still serviced very well.
    Man, you don't know what you're talking about. I posted a pic earlier. Here's one showing 7pm - typical dinner time. I'm only 50 blocks away, not 125 blocks across the river and Henday on 23rd SW. Why would I ever take transit?
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    My thoughts, for what they are worth:

    • Parking is more expensive in the core, but this is common for a big city of over 1M people. This is not Vegreville or Barrhead.
    • Parking lots being replaced by developments with underground parkades is a great thing.
    • Funny how downtown always get the brunt of this debate and yet nobody seems to complain about parking in Old Strathcona.
    • New arena (sports, concerts), new RAM, possible new Galleria, shows at the Citadel and Winspear, festivals in Churchill Square are just some reasons for people will visit downtown. It would greatly help if downtown became one of the premiere shopping destinations again (Holt stays, City Centre gets its poop together, Ice District attracts exclusive retailers).
    • We need more viable choices of transportation to along with cars and parking. LRT expansion must continue without any more fubars. Bus service needs a big rethink, which is coming (I hope). Bike lanes will help.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  74. #74

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    ^Parking, and free parking at that, is readily available on Whyte. I've never had to walk more than a couple blocks. Downtown, I've had to park on 105st or further to hit up Rice Howard after 6pm on a weekend if I want free parking. A significant amount of street parking is taken up by construction, and once that's complete there will be even less when people live in buildings and need extra parking and there are visitors. Rogers Place event nights will pretty much be a no-go. I feel bad for establishments that want patrons between 7-10pm when games/converts are in swing, every parking stall for blocks around is taken, but everyone is inside the arena.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  75. #75

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    I've long believed if the City really wanted to accelerate the removal of gravel lots, it would build some modern parking buildings, allowing other buildings to be built cheaper without underground parking included. That way, downtown can retain being a little bit affordable for visitors while making gravel lots less economic (maybe even ban them in CBD eventually), while providing an ongoing revenue stream, while playing off a true benefit of the pedway system (allowing specialized parking buildings to be linked to residential or commercial).

    This sort of thing could make any downtown look better, not worse. Just because above grade parking was often designed badly in the past, doesn't mean it can't be designed well today:



    https://blog.parkme.com/2013/07/24/s...arking-garage/

    18 interesting ones here:

    https://www.google.ca/url?sa=i&sourc...&rct=j&cad=rjt

    Last edited by moahunter; 04-03-2016 at 12:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Hinderks View Post
    Jaerdo

    You obviously don't read.

    1) Show me one comment I made any comment about parking prices...neat trick there are none.
    Matter of fact I commented to IanO that parking did not need to be free, but there had to be at least a percieved value.

    2) Where did I complain about parking...again I didn't. I have been clear that choices have to be made regarding "who" you want to attract downtown and how you will accomodate them. And if the choices are not to accomodate them don't complain if they don't show up .

    3) You have very directly been attacking me and attributing comments I have not made to me and you can't apparently read.

    As I stated in the last line of post #66
    But you've taken me from a supporter that doesn't go to one doesn't go and actively won't support
    While I used to care...again post #66...you and a few others here have actively driven me to someone that as of this thread doesn't care.

    And it is not a "downtown attitude" but everything to do with the attitude of you and a few others.

    You shouldn't be worried about me taking my ball home, you should be worried about me keeping my money and support home thanks to you and the few of "your" cadre. I'll actively promote others to do the same.

    Congrats and buh bye to this thread.

    Is this the republican debate?

    You're "just asking questions". Or you're just saying we "have to make a choice".

    People can read between the lines, Thomas. When you say:

    Don't give the customer what they want....they go somewhere else.
    in direct reply to a comment about free parking (see post 39), you are OBVIOUSLY suggesting that people will stop going downtown if we get rid of free parking.

    Am I living in the twilight zone? How can you wade into a discussion about whether or not we should keep free parking, state that opinion, then spend 5-6 posts pretending that you weren't making an argument?

    You in fact repeat the exact same argument later on:

    Don't provide what families that choose to drive for their own reason feel they need in terms of cost/amenities....don't expect them to come.
    It is blatantly obvious that you are suggesting that if we don't protect cheap parking, businesses will lose out. Given that argument, which you stated multiple times and very clearly, you were engaged on several points:

    1) Protecting that cheap parking means maintaining surface parking lots at an obvious detriment to downtown.

    2) Expensive parking with a vibrant downtown is better for business than muddy parking lots offering cheap stalls.

    Instead of engaging those points, you elected to perform some juvenile mental gymnastics to avoid any discussion of the implication of your argument. When called out, instead of discussing the issue you decided to complain about the tone of conversation, insult people who live downtown, and threaten to "take your ball and go home".

    If you want to have a discussion about parking with a respectable tone, I am more than willing to. Please do not draw arbitrary lines in the sand to isolate your arguments from any sort of engagement. THAT is what we call bad "tone of conversation".

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    I've long believed if the City really wanted to accelerate the removal of gravel lots, it would build some modern parking buildings, allowing other buildings to be built cheaper without underground parking included. That way, downtown can retain being a little bit affordable for visitors while making gravel lots less economic (maybe even ban them in CBD eventually), while providing an ongoing revenue stream, while playing off a true benefit of the pedway system (allowing specialized parking buildings to be linked to residential or commercial).

    This sort of thing could make any downtown look better, not worse. Just because above grade parking was often designed badly in the past, doesn't mean it can't be designed well today:
    I'm cautiously fine with this idea, with some caveats:

    1) Build them on marginal / subpar lots that are unattractive for development. Not on prime lots that could be developed into residential/commercial.

    2) Activate the street with ground level retail in the parkades.

    3) Make a profit for the city on the parking, while keeping rates competitively low.

    4) Don't trade transit for parking. Still focus on improving transit links to the downtown (so you don't have people like Chimlz who fall through the cracks in service), reducing need to drive.

  78. #78

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    You sir are why people avoid this site like the plague... Yay downtown!!

  79. #79

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    Jaerdo...try reading

    Post #61 Highlander said...

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    And people who appreciate downtown for being downtown say no, those people's visits aren't worth it.
    My positive reply on post #63
    And that is a perfect example of making a choice and recognizing what you're giving up and what you are getting.
    Stop reading into and read what is written
    Last edited by Thomas Hinderks; 04-03-2016 at 09:27 AM.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    *Snip*

    You're "just asking questions". Or you're just saying we "have to make a choice".

    People can read between the lines, Thomas. When you say:

    Don't give the customer what they want....they go somewhere else.
    in direct reply to a comment about free parking (see post 39), you are OBVIOUSLY suggesting that people will stop going downtown if we get rid of free parking.

    *Snip*.
    You're having a heated argument with what you read between the lines. Please stop.

    As for suggesting that people who want free parking won't come if there isn't, that's just economic reality, and saying so is certainly NOT advocating one particular course of action.

    I agree wholeheartedly with the proposition that if you don't give people what they want they will go elsewhere, but I firmly believe that if what they want is subsidized parking then let 'em go elsewhere.

  81. #81

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    Good comment highlander and valid choice and course of action if that is what is desired.

    T

  82. #82

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    Jaerdo like a few others just love to be the Center of attention causing pointless drama... Welcome to Jaerdo's comedy zone.

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    Let's just review here, so we can bring back the thread (which is literally named "DOWNTOWN PARKING RATES") to the topic Thomas and others have been trying to derail so they don't have to defend their arguments.

    Post number 1, about PARKING PRICES:

    In the news today that downtown rates are going up $35 - $40. Apparently due to increased downtown development combined with the number of construction workers creating the same. I guess construction workers will get replaced by office workers, venue attendees and residents so it's not really like an opportunistic peaking demand issue.
    Post that Thomas first posted in reference to, about PARKING PRICES:

    I am one such victim, using near former Associated Engineering building parking lot. I have a monthly pass but Diamond parking refuses to allocate a dedicated stall in that lot to anyone. Why? of course extra profit on the days people like me are not using the parking. Especially now builders working to re-skin that building are creating head ache for most of people in offices around there. Prices up, service down. Win Win for the parking operator.
    Thomas' first post in the thread, supporting FamilyMan's complaint:

    Well FamilyMan

    After reading the above quote I am now more in agreement with you not less.

    I clearly get you point FamilyMan.

    T

    From then on you all attempted to derail the discussion away from the topic, which is PARKING PRICES, by drawing ridiculous arbitrary lines in the sand suggesting that you are "only talking about business".

    Bloody hilarious that your defense is to suggest that I'm not reading your posts, when your first post was in support of a complaint about rising parking prices. What a brilliant thread you caused in here.

    On top of it all, for posterity, I did try to engage your "just talking about business" argument by suggesting that the status quo is worse than losing some parking customers, as the status quo requires surface parking lots that drain economic vibrancy. Apparently that wasn't good enough for you.
    Last edited by Jaerdo; 04-03-2016 at 10:45 AM.

  84. #84

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    Oh come on post the whole quote...

    The part you're missing:
    Originally Posted by FamilyMan View Post
    It is ironic that despite your intentions, it is exactly people like you and IanO who make DownTown not-family-friendly. You simply don't understand the choices a family has to make. It is not about if I can afford it. My post was a rant on the mis-match between price and quality of service, not just the price. But don't you worry, this was my last post on this thread.
    The section I have BOLDED is what I agreed with.

    This showcases another example of you not reading what FamilyMan wrote and instead injected what you wished it to be.

    Keep digging your hole

    T

  85. #85
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    ^^
    If you're so good at reading between the lines why didn't you notice that FamilyMan was complaining not about the prices, but that he had paid monthly but thanks to Parking Co. policies there haven't been enough stalls available, so monthly pass-holders don't necessarily get the service that they paid for? That's crap to have to deal with, especially since it's impossible to know until you get there.

    Or that Thomas' comment was in reference to the lack of empathy in responses and a downtown attitude that can be off-putting, not primarily about a demand for more/cheaper parking that FamilyMan never made?

    Look, I agree with you about what the policies should be. Cheap and plentiful parking should not be the goal, a downtown that's worth getting to despite inconveniences should be the goal and more parking won't get us there.

    But it's just reality that when you have a family and you're not one of the very few families who don't have a car, the private vehicle is the easiest way to get places. If it's not easy to get there, and it doesn't offer attractions that aren't anywhere else people like us won't go, or will go rarely. Look at what we do go for- farmers markets and parades and festivals. Things that offer an atmosphere that you just can't get in a mall parking lot.

  86. #86
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    I'll preface this by apologizing sincerely if I insulted anyone, because that was not my intention in coming in here. I honestly want to have a good conversation, which is why I'm on this website in the first place.

    In response:

    Please read my post in the "tone of conversation" thread. If I am responding to you, it is because I want to support what you say, or conversely debate issues I see in your position. I'm not insulting you, and I don't appreciate the constant name calling and tribal attitudes against people who live downtown.

    In this thread, we had a long series of posts about perceived issues with parking prices going up. As someone who lives downtown, I identified issues in the connotation to those complaints, which is that downtown will somehow lose (whether it is business, or people coming from the suburbs in) if we don't do something about it. My argument in return was that I believe the entire downtown including the businesses, and in fact the whole city, would be better off if we developed the surface parking lots even if it meant a loss of parking.

    I also suggested that people ride public transit. Chilmz engaged me on that one, and proved (though rather rudely and with no loss of name calling, which I don't appreciate), that I was wrong about it. Clearly, there are areas that need huge service improvement.

    That is what I would rather see (minus the name calling). If I'm posting here, it is because I want to engage in the discussion. Not have petty arguments about semantics, or name calling bouts based on what neighbourhood you are from.

  87. #87
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    So, thinking about what would get me and my family downtown more often, parking doesn't even enter into it.

    -Cleaner, better landscaped, lower-traffic streets. We eat at Old Spaghetti Factory sometimes, and it's unfortunate that the restaurant itself is the only attraction. 103 st and 102 ave should be places where parking 3 blocks away and walking should be a an enjoyable part of the outing, but it's not. So why not just go to BPs in a strip mall?

    -Interesting places. Churchill square is nice, and 104st is too, for a block. But for the most part downtown just isn't what it should be. Rice Howard way is a nicely landscaped parking lot. We go to the downtown farmers market, but when you're done, that's it. You walk back to the car (or to the bus stop, I guess) past dusty parking lots. I guess you can look at construction.

    -Better shopping. Not high end, people with families can't afford that. Not necessarily kids. Stuff like Simons. A Better Bay. I drive all the way to WEM for simons, that's 40 minutes more, round trip, than going downtown. I would willingly pay to park downtown to save that time (except Londonderry will be changing the game).

    -Safer Streets. Less traffic. Easier walking. I want to be able to walk a few blocks from parking without having to stop multiple times at traffic lights waiting for speeding traffic while being accosted or watching a fight on the sidewalk. All streets should be at least as calm as 104st from jasper to 102, both in terms of traffic and anti-social behaviour. This is directly at odds with the desire for cheap parking right next to where I want to go. I want no one to be able to park right in front of where I want to go, I want it to be a pleasant patio.

    I want it to be like a real, totally public, lively version of the inside of a successful mall, with no cars to watch out for and no puke on the sidewalk to step over.
    Last edited by highlander; 04-03-2016 at 03:36 PM.

  88. #88
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    Parking is only expensive Downtown on weekdays, when there is the greatest demand and the best options for using alternatives like public transit.

    At this point, on-street parking remains free after 6 pm seven days a week, free all day Sundays, and is available at much reduced rates on Saturdays.

    Once the arena opens, free on-street parking is likely to end at least in the vicinity of the arena during Oilers games and major concerts. But it needs to, otherwise some patrons will opt to drive their vehicles Downtown to grab free parking spaces rather than taking transit.

  89. #89

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    Actually, it needs to increase in order to generate the increased parking revenue that's already been factored into the arena's economics. Hence the move away from the meters & to the digital system that can be configured for surge pricing & so forth.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Happily ignoring the ignorant rather than getting in a battle of wits with unarmed opponents.

  90. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    I've long believed if the City really wanted to accelerate the removal of gravel lots, it would build some modern parking buildings, allowing other buildings to be built cheaper without underground parking included. That way, downtown can retain being a little bit affordable for visitors while making gravel lots less economic (maybe even ban them in CBD eventually), while providing an ongoing revenue stream, while playing off a true benefit of the pedway system (allowing specialized parking buildings to be linked to residential or commercial).

    This sort of thing could make any downtown look better, not worse. Just because above grade parking was often designed badly in the past, doesn't mean it can't be designed well today:



    https://blog.parkme.com/2013/07/24/s...arking-garage/

    18 interesting ones here:

    https://www.google.ca/url?sa=i&sourc...&rct=j&cad=rjt

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    I'm cautiously fine with this idea, with some caveats:

    1) Build them on marginal / subpar lots that are unattractive for development. Not on prime lots that could be developed into residential/commercial.

    2) Activate the street with ground level retail in the parkades.

    3) Make a profit for the city on the parking, while keeping rates competitively low.

    4) Don't trade transit for parking. Still focus on improving transit links to the downtown (so you don't have people like Chimlz who fall through the cracks in service), reducing need to drive.
    Nearly every major city does what Moa's recommending, while reconciling with your recommendations. In a number of large European cities I've been to, I noticed that parking is available in copious amounts - you just don't readily see it. Car parks behind street-fronting buildings. Parking structures masked behind active facades. Underground parking added below existing structures.

    Parking is a necessity that even the most pedestrian cities seem to get right. For such a sprawling, car-oriented city, we somehow manage to do it very poorly.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    Here is more what I would like to see. This is a parking garage hidden with a layer of retail:


    http://buildabetterburb.org/2013/wp-...e-slide-04.jpg

  92. #92
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    Where above-grade parking is built, that's the minimum. Other than the university has there been any above-grade parking built lately? MacEwan's was expanded maybe 8 years ago?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Hinderks View Post
    That's crap

    I don't go downtown as any one that's followed my posts over the years knows.

    I have no interest in downtown unless it's business, the art gallery once twice a year and maybe the new provincial museum once twice a year when it opens.

    Beyond that it offers nothing for my family or I and the "tude" on here has soured me to the point where I will now avoid at all costs, now I really don't care about downtown at all.

    Congratulations on creating another convert (sarcasm), you've done a fine job.

    But I am tired of DT boosters expecting everyone to be a DT booster.

    If you don't want suburbanites DT fine, it's a fair choice. But don't complain when they don't come or support DT.

    The implications of my arguments has been "make a choice and live with it" period.

    But you've now taken me from a supporter who doesn't go to one that doesn't go and actively won't support...good work.

    T
    You don't care about your city, bravo.
    www.decl.org

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    ^Please, don't start this again.

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    This thread is unfortunate. A case wherein posters should probably be thinking that a lot of lurkers read this forum. This thread has been off the rails many posts ago.

    I hardly think that threads like this do any justice to either this city, this forum or its mandate

    cheers
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  96. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    This thread is unfortunate. A case wherein posters should probably be thinking that a lot of lurkers read this forum. This thread has been off the rails many posts ago.
    Lighten up, if you just look at the images, its fine

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by FamilyMan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by FamilyMan View Post
    The difference between post #9 and #10 is something called "Empathy". Rare to see these days...

    "Empathy" for the people who can apparently afford to spend hundreds of dollars a month on a parking pass downtown, on top of the several hundred dollars more of car payments, gas, and insurance?

    It is $91.50 for a monthly unlimited transit pass that takes you to every single neighbourhood in the entire city. No matter where you are in Edmonton, it will take you under an hour to get downtown on work days - not much more than you're going to spend sitting in traffic in rush hour. Oh, and the pass is tax deductible.

    Why should people have "empathy" for those who have to pay a little bit more on top of the exorbitant driving costs they willingly choose to shoulder?

    Driving to park downtown is expensive, guys. Big shocker.
    I didn't ask for your sympathy. Perhaps you don't know what empathy means?

    It is ironic that despite your intentions, it is exactly people like you and IanO who make DownTown not-family-friendly. You simply don't understand the choices a family has to make. It is not about if I can afford it. My post was a rant on the mis-match between price and quality of service, not just the price. But don't you worry, this was my last post on this thread.
    Exchanges like this should not exist on a moderated board.

    "People like you" Wow, what driveby presumption. Was that an empathic statement? The same poster stating that dismissive rebuttal exited this thread citing how frustrating the thread was and took concerns to an alternate thread instead of addressing them here in this thread.

    On a messageboard that is somewhat problematic behavior.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    This thread is unfortunate. A case wherein posters should probably be thinking that a lot of lurkers read this forum. This thread has been off the rails many posts ago.
    Lighten up, if you just look at the images, its fine
    Visually improved like the Oilers?
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  99. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Hinderks View Post
    That's crap

    I don't go downtown as any one that's followed my posts over the years knows.

    I have no interest in downtown unless it's business, the art gallery once twice a year and maybe the new provincial museum once twice a year when it opens.

    Beyond that it offers nothing for my family or I and the "tude" on here has soured me to the point where I will now avoid at all costs, now I really don't care about downtown at all.

    Congratulations on creating another convert (sarcasm), you've done a fine job.

    But I am tired of DT boosters expecting everyone to be a DT booster.

    If you don't want suburbanites DT fine, it's a fair choice. But don't complain when they don't come or support DT.

    The implications of my arguments has been "make a choice and live with it" period.

    But you've now taken me from a supporter who doesn't go to one that doesn't go and actively won't support...good work.

    T
    You don't care about your city, bravo.
    MY City is much larger than just downtown...thank yourself (and a select few others...edit...added after to be fair) for my feelings towards the core now.

    That said

    I appreciate the posts by "highlander" he gets it.
    - Acknowledges the choice of reducing and charging more for parking and it's ramifications.

    - His suggestions mitigate the negative effects of the above choice and replaces the decreased parking and increased rates with real ways to add value added amenities to attract the out of core families and out of town folks.

    They would probably work well if followed through in a creative, fun and friendly methodology.

    "highlander's" ideas are so good I am going to forward them to a couple of people I know in other BRZs with credit to him.

    Good work and thanks highlander
    Last edited by Thomas Hinderks; 04-03-2016 at 03:07 PM.

  100. #100
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    As is mine, but all of us should care about the health, state, vitality of our Downtown.
    www.decl.org

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