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Thread: Bombardier Bail Out

  1. #1

    Default Bombardier Bail Out

    So, Bombardier, who are languishing under a debt mountain, needs a bail out. If the Liberals plan to do this, shouldn't they require that Bombardier provide research on whether or not their jets and other products, will increase carbon emissions over their lifecycle? Some Alberta companies have to do that, it seems, just to operate.

    http://news.nationalpost.com/full-co...nal-unity-fire

  2. #2

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    Same financial assistance as O&G and the other Aerospace companies in Canada.

    They have been a broken business model since they took over Canadair (which was profitable before the takeover AIRC)

  3. #3

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    ^what type of assistance do they get?

    I expect Bombardier gets a lot of assistance through the SR&ED program.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^what type of assistance do they get?

    I expect Bombardier gets a lot of assistance through the SR&ED program.
    A lot of companies get assistance through SRED program. My company (a US oil services co) benefits to the tune of several hundred thousand a year. Only applies to R&D in Canada obviously.

  5. #5

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    ^I was at a SR&ED presentation once, and they said, over half of the Canadian pay outs of SR&ED, go to Quebec companies. The explanation was more high tech, but also that the tax authorities there are a lot more lenient in promoting local businesses. But yes, a lot of companies benefit here in Alberta from it.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^what type of assistance do they get?

    I expect Bombardier gets a lot of assistance through the SR&ED program.
    Bombardier has had several bailouts from the feds over the years and received preferential treatment on DND purchases/contracts, Iltis is one...read the contract specs on that one and then the specs of the vehicle.

    If I remember correctly there was also a debacle with their rail division where they received Federal $$$$ for Canadian jobs and then contracted the work south of the border.

    Can't remember all the details off the top of my head but "google" is your friend.

  7. #7

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    ^sorry I was meaning more, what do the other Canadian aerospace companies get? Nothing (other than SR&ED / normal stuff)?

    I remember Bombardier was helped by loan deals from the Canadian government to potential customers (it was a big WTO spat I think, between Canada and Brazil - Embraer).

    I'd be a little more comfortable with bail outs if Bombardier weren't controlled by a rich family (that seems to make, mistake after mistake), but rather, were a fully public controlled company (e.g. like GM or Chrysler).
    Last edited by moahunter; 28-01-2016 at 12:45 PM.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^sorry I was meaning more, what do the other companies get? Nothing (other than SR&ED / normal stuff)?

    I know Bombardier was helped by loan deals from the Canadian government to potential customers (it was a big WTO spat I think).
    The others, in Aerospace, only get the SR&ED as they qualify to the best of my knowledge.

    Matter of fact I recall a major flame up years ago where Bristol Aerospace in Winnipeg won a contract for refits on CF-18s and then the contract suddenly moved to Bombardier. Can't recall the net result though.

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    One condition that the Feds must insist on if they do get a bail out is the family has to surrender controlling interest in the company.
    “Canada is the only country in the world that knows how to live without an identity,”-Marshall McLuhan

  10. #10

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    I don't really believe it's anything substantially different than their chief competitors Boeing, Airbus, Embraer, Mitsubishi, Kawasaki, Sukhoi.

    If we want Canadians to have aerospace and research jobs (and high tech aspirations), we have to be honest about what the worldwide industry looks like.

    I wouldn't have any qualms about taking the family out of the picture, but I don't want the mistake of the Arrow repeated (where a political decision obliterated an entire industry.) Like the Arrow, or moreso the likely much more important co-deceased Jetliner, the CSeries is a World leading platform.
    Last edited by JayBee; 28-01-2016 at 05:02 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    One condition that the Feds must insist on if they do get a bail out is the family has to surrender controlling interest in the company.
    This. 100%. They have run it in to the ground. Time for them to step aside if the company is to continue operating. If they refuse, then the Federal government should tell them to take a hike.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    One condition that the Feds must insist on if they do get a bail out is the family has to surrender controlling interest in the company.
    This. 100%. They have run it in to the ground. Time for them to step aside if the company is to continue operating. If they refuse, then the Federal government should tell them to take a hike.
    The flip side is that a lot of analysts believe that control is the only thing preventing a hostile takeover that breaks up the company, which would likely have immense ramifications for the industry in Canada.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  13. #13

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    ^it might be better broken up. When I think of Boeing I think aerospace. I don't think ATVs or trains. There are already government rules to protect Canadiam ownership that can be used.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^it might be better broken up. When I think of Boeing I think aerospace. I don't think ATVs or trains. There are already government rules to protect Canadiam ownership that can be used.
    BRP, the snowmobile/ATV Bombardier, is actually a separate company.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz
    The flip side is that a lot of analysts believe that control is the only thing preventing a hostile takeover that breaks up the company, which would likely have immense ramifications for the industry in Canada.
    Yeah, I read that too. No simple solutions, for sure. For what it's worth I had a conversation a few months back with someone who had been quite high up at Bombardier for a few years, and he had very little good to say about the management of the company.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    I don't really believe it's anything substantially different than their chief competitors Boeing, Airbus, Embraer, Mitsubishi, Kawasaki, Sukhoi.

    If we want Canadians to have aerospace and research jobs (and high tech aspirations), we have to be honest about what the worldwide industry looks like.
    Very broad spectrum you reference...IIRC (as I am going by memory)
    Boeing (for sure), Lockheed, Mitsubishi aerospace, Kawasaki aerospace and Fuji aerospace have not ever been bailed out by the government or subsidies beyond the usual granting purposes for research in their countries.

    Airbus was created through agreement of the multiple countries involved and some consider in the industry consider it a semi government organization.

    Embrauer has been bailed and receives subsidies as I recall

    Sukhio is a weird one as it began as a design bureau and the production side was by government factories. It has now evolved into something more complex and I'm not sure what to call it. But their private venture side (some of the worlds best aerobatic aircraft) is a private/profitable operation.

    Edit...added after

    In addition Bombardier's bailout and other factors have been unfair and at a cost to the other Canadian aerospace companies such as Bristol Aerospace, Viking, the BC contractor building F-35 wings (can't remember the name right now), Pratt and Whitney Canada and others. these companies are all successful and the injection of similar dollars to what Bombardier has received would have pushed them forward. Bristol and Pratt and Whitney particularly

    I wouldn't have any qualms about taking the family out of the picture
    I believe it is a must given their financial legacy...

    Add a little more when I have time
    Last edited by Thomas Hinderks; 29-01-2016 at 01:41 PM.

  16. #16

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    To this comment of Jaybee's

    but I don't want the mistake of the Arrow repeated (where a political decision obliterated an entire industry.)
    We repeat the mistake of the Arrow constantly in many industries, but in this case...
    Support to Bombardier, in my opinion, suppresses the Aerospace industry as does overall government policy (liberal and conservative).

    There are many successful Aerospace companies in Canada, both foreign owned and Canadian owned as I have mentioned...leveling the playing field will benefit them.

    Canadian Government policy history speaks too...since the 60s/early 70s we buy not build our military aircraft. Strategically and Economically this is not a good thing.

    Using the USA as a more successful example...their policy of focusing on "Built at home" military aircraft has allowed them to develop companies with the technologies to be world dominators on civilian sales.

    The Boeing 707 as an example was developed on the back of the KC-35 air tanker program...they are actually very different aircraft though look the same...but the tech developed by the military aircraft allowed for the 707 development.

    Edit added after BTW...
    (where a political decision obliterated an entire industry.)
    In the opinion of many, and one that I share, it was meant to.
    Last edited by Thomas Hinderks; 29-01-2016 at 01:04 PM.

  17. #17

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    Lastly...
    the CSeries is a World leading platform.
    If this is really the case then maybe Bombardier should sell off the design, current tooling and prototypes. The funding generated would allow them to restructure to a more efficient company.

    Along with the CS they could sell off non Canadian assets which if memory serves would include:
    - Beech Jet USA
    - Lear Jet USA
    - Shorts Aircraft in Ireland

    Combined it would represent very very significant dollars with more zeros than I'll ever have to worry about.
    Last edited by Thomas Hinderks; 29-01-2016 at 01:40 PM.

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    Strange Bombardier wants a bail out when our lrt cars were made at the Bombardier plant in New York state.
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  19. #19

    Default Reverse stock split coming?

    Seems they are embarrassed about being a penny stock:

    http://business.financialpost.com/in...-years-sources

  20. #20

    Default $1 billion for Bombardiar, and $700m for all of Alberta?

    Oh well, I guess more votes in Quebec for the Liberals, than in Alberta, but it is a little odd that one company is likely going to get more than our entire province from this spending spree:

    http://news.nationalpost.com/full-co...r-for-humanity

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    I wonder how much of that bail out money goes to subsidize Bombardiar jobs in the US? Is this bail out money infrastructure money or something else?
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    If the oil companies had their head offices in Montreal they would be getting spiffed too

  23. #23

    Default Billion dollar bail out more of the same

    To paraphrase: because God said Quebec should be in aerospace, even though this rich family has wasted billions of other peoples money on a plane it can't sell for more than it costs to make:

    http://news.nationalpost.com/full-co...f-the-same-old

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    I find it bizarre that bailing out failing businesses of any kind is on the table, whether they are oil or transportation or anything else.

    The government should not be in the business of saving businesses that made bad decisions or are in a failing industry. If we need to subsidize something for economic growth, it should be profitable, job-creating small businesses.

    $1 billion would go a long way towards growing small businesses in Canada.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    I find it bizarre that bailing out failing businesses of any kind is on the table, whether they are oil or transportation or anything else.

    The government should not be in the business of saving businesses that made bad decisions or are in a failing industry. If we need to subsidize something for economic growth, it should be profitable, job-creating small businesses.

    $1 billion would go a long way towards growing small businesses in Canada.
    it's not so bizarre. unless you think the apology and not the initial sentiment was how he really feels when trudeau said:

    "..."Canada isn’t doing well right now because it’s Albertans who control our community and socio-democratic agenda.”

    He also said Canada would be better served if there were more Quebecers than Albertans in charge.
    ..."

    i will be shocked if our pipelines get any more than platitudes while bombardier gets even more of our cash.
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    ^ It's unbelievable that Trudeau would be that divisive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    ^ It's unbelievable that Trudeau would be that divisive.
    The really bizarre thing is that in the same speech, he said that the best Prime Ministers had been from Quebec, and gave Mulroney as an example.

    In other words, he's glad that the Liberals lost in '84 and '88.

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    ^ And you know what's going to be really odd about this? His comments wont even make front page news tonight at 11pm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    ^ And you know what's going to be really odd about this? His comments wont even make front page news tonight at 11pm.
    They did. It was a few years ago that he made those comments.
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  30. #30

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    Quick quiz:

    What's the difference between subsidised Québec companies and historically undertaxed Calgary companies?

    We as 'Albertans' are sooooo eager to allow the latter unquestioned.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  31. #31

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    Speaking of divisive...

    I think in Atlantic Canada, because of what happened in the decades following Confederation, there is a culture of defeat that we have to overcome. …Atlantic Canada's culture of defeat will be hard to overcome as long as Atlantic Canada is actually physically trailing the rest of the country.
    New Brunswick Telegraph Journal, May 29, 2002.
    It is imperative to take the initiative, to build firewalls around Alberta, to limit the extent to which an aggressive and hostile federal government can encroach upon legitimate provincial jurisdiction.
    National Post, January 24, 2001, “Open Letter to Ralph Klein”
    Same sex marriage is not a human right. … [U]ndermining the traditional definition of marriage is an assault on multiculturalism and the practices in those communities.
    Hansard, February 16, 2005.
    https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Stephen_Harper

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    ^ And you know what's going to be really odd about this? His comments wont even make front page news tonight at 11pm.
    They did. It was a few years ago that he made those comments.
    I thought his comments were more recent due to the Bombardier thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    ^ And you know what's going to be really odd about this? His comments wont even make front page news tonight at 11pm.
    They did. It was a few years ago that he made those comments.
    I thought his comments were more recent due to the Bombardier thread.
    I'm assuming JT has better handlers now who wouldn't let him say that kind of stuff, even in French.

    And I don't even know he seriously he meant it at the time. The guy is so flaky, I think he was probably just mindlessly mouthing pseudo-progressive cliches about evil Alberta, without really thinking about the meaning. Like I said, if we take his comments seriously, we'd have to assume that he prefers Conservative to Liberal PMs, as long as they're from Quebec.
    Last edited by overoceans; 15-02-2016 at 09:19 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    ^ And you know what's going to be really odd about this? His comments wont even make front page news tonight at 11pm.
    They did. It was a few years ago that he made those comments.
    I thought his comments were more recent due to the Bombardier thread.
    it was a tiger and stripes post... we will see if they have really changed, "apology" notwithstanding. my guess is the quote might not be yesterday's but the sentiment is still current.
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    Anyone remember JT and the Theresa Spense hunger strike? What a farce that was and he bought into it hook line and sinker. Is there still any appetite left for Western Canada to separate? We don't need Saskatchewan (Except Premier Brad Wall) just BC/Alberta. At least Bombardier is behind the Valley line.
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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Anyone remember JT and the Theresa Spense hunger strike? What a farce that was and he bought into it hook line and sinker. Is there still any appetite left for Western Canada to separate? We don't need Saskatchewan (Except Premier Brad Wall) just BC/Alberta. At least Bombardier is behind the Valley line.
    Yes, well, with the BC Liberals lambasting Alberta governments past and present in their throne speech, and First Nations groups giving a big fat middle-finger to pipelines over their jurisdiction, I don't think BC is the most reliable partner to break out on our own with.

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    ^ BC aboriginal groups have been bought off by US environmental groups and have been doing so for years.
    http://www.albertaoilmagazine.com/20...trade-barrier/
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    I'm quite in favour of the C-series bailout. If Canada is going to compete in the 21st century it will be based on innovation and intellectual property ownership.

    This is a good article that explains where I am coming from:
    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...ticle28462854/
    by Jim Balsillie, founder of RIM

  39. #39

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    Bombardier to eliminate 7,000 jobs, announces deal with Air Canada.
    MONTREAL - Bombardier announced Wednesday it will eliminate 7,000 positions over two years — more than a third of which will come from Canada — in the latest effort by the country's largest aerospace company to turn itself around as it awaits word of federal aid.
    The Montreal-based firm said the layoffs will include 2,830 jobs in Canada, including 2,400 in Quebec. Nearly half of all the cuts would be at Bombardier Transportation, its rail division, which will lose 3,200 jobs.

    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/busin...926/story.html
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  40. #40

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    ^clever stuff, layoff a ton of people, then get a billion in government funding, and say you are going to hire a ton of people with that "investment"...

  41. #41

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    It's good to see the low Dollar bringing some relief to our manufacturing industries.

    After the Harper Oil Dollar, it's stunning we have any left.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  42. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Bombardier to eliminate 7,000 jobs, announces deal with Air Canada.
    MONTREAL - Bombardier announced Wednesday it will eliminate 7,000 positions over two years — more than a third of which will come from Canada — in the latest effort by the country's largest aerospace company to turn itself around as it awaits word of federal aid.
    The Montreal-based firm said the layoffs will include 2,830 jobs in Canada, including 2,400 in Quebec. Nearly half of all the cuts would be at Bombardier Transportation, its rail division, which will lose 3,200 jobs.

    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/busin...926/story.html
    Before any bail out maybe they should sell off their Non Canadian Aerospace assets like:
    - Lear Jet, IIRC US based
    - Beech Jet aircraft, IIRC US based
    - Shorts Aerospace, Northern Ireland based as I recall

    and I believe they still own Rotax which also makes aircraft engines (Austrian based if I remember correctly)...sell that too.

    Canadian dollars should only go to Canadian Aerospace IMO

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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    It's good to see the low Dollar bringing some relief to our manufacturing industries.

    After the Harper Oil Dollar, it's stunning we have any left.
    Most manufacturing jobs are in Eastern Canada:

    https://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/mfg-fa...eng/00201.html
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  44. #44

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    Interesting, just after Air Canada orders CS300s, Quebec drops a legal suit against the company:

    QUEBEC CITY/OTTAWA (Reuters) - Air Canada AC.TO won a double victory on Wednesday when Ottawa promised to ease some restrictions on the carrier and the province of Quebec dropped a lawsuit against the airline after it ordered passenger jets from Quebec-based Bombardier Inc BBDb.TO.
    http://ca.reuters.com/article/busine.../idCAKCN0VQ199

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    I'm wondering if the trick to receiving corporate welfare is to have most offices/head office for any given company in either Toronto, Ottawa or Montreal. Canadian auto companies received somewhere around 11 billion due to their own greed, Bombardier apparently has a culture of awful management and Air Canada is just ... Air Canada.

    Out here in the west we get whacked with stuff out of our control (low global oil prices) and pretty much get a "sucks to be you" from Ottawa and many citizens of the country. Something wrong with this picture...

  46. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Hinderks View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Bombardier to eliminate 7,000 jobs, announces deal with Air Canada.
    MONTREAL - Bombardier announced Wednesday it will eliminate 7,000 positions over two years — more than a third of which will come from Canada — in the latest effort by the country's largest aerospace company to turn itself around as it awaits word of federal aid.
    The Montreal-based firm said the layoffs will include 2,830 jobs in Canada, including 2,400 in Quebec. Nearly half of all the cuts would be at Bombardier Transportation, its rail division, which will lose 3,200 jobs.

    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/busin...926/story.html
    Before any bail out maybe they should sell off their Non Canadian Aerospace assets like:
    - Lear Jet, IIRC US based
    - Beech Jet aircraft, IIRC US based
    - Shorts Aerospace, Northern Ireland based as I recall

    and I believe they still own Rotax which also makes aircraft engines (Austrian based if I remember correctly)...sell that too.

    Canadian dollars should only go to Canadian Aerospace IMO
    Rotax is part of "Bombardier recreational Products", who also make Skidoo, a completely seperate company.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  47. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    Rotax is part of "Bombardier recreational Products", who also make Skidoo, a completely seperate company.
    So what, the aircraft engine production is a separate division within Rotax and can be cut out and sold or moved to Canada.

    Rotax engines are as I recall Austrian based, Skidoo production is in Quebec with the engines shipped in as they are also used by many other manufacturers.

    T

  48. #48

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    ^ uh, I'm not being clear. "BRP" is a seperate company from "Bombardier". They have no common shares anymore. Bombardier sold BRP years ago.

    Bombardier includes:
    • Canadair
    • DeHaviland Canada
    • Shorts
    • Lear
    • Deutsch Wagonbau
    • Adtranz
    • etc.


    BRP (Bombardier Recreational Products) includes:
    • Skidoo
    • CanAm
    • Rotax
    • Evinrude
    • etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Interesting, just after Air Canada orders CS300s, Quebec drops a legal suit against the company:

    QUEBEC CITY/OTTAWA (Reuters) - Air Canada AC.TO won a double victory on Wednesday when Ottawa promised to ease some restrictions on the carrier and the province of Quebec dropped a lawsuit against the airline after it ordered passenger jets from Quebec-based Bombardier Inc BBDb.TO.
    http://ca.reuters.com/article/busine.../idCAKCN0VQ199
    This was part of the arrangement with the Quebec gov. Air Canada was clearly in breach of its privatization agreement when they moved their aircraft maintenance out of the country. But now Air Canada has agreed to maintain its new C series fleet at a facility near Montreal. In exchange for that and the order, Quebec dropped its lawsuit.

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  51. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    ^ uh, I'm not being clear. "BRP" is a seperate company from "Bombardier". They have no common shares anymore. Bombardier sold BRP years ago.

    Bombardier includes:
    • Canadair
    • DeHaviland Canada
    • Shorts
    • Lear
    • Deutsch Wagonbau
    • Adtranz
    • etc.


    BRP (Bombardier Recreational Products) includes:
    • Skidoo
    • CanAm
    • Rotax
    • Evinrude
    • etc.
    Bck to the grander point which is being missed....

    Bombardier aerospace needs to divest itself of all of it's forgien aersospace assets if it expects a bailout of any kind.

    To be clear...Canadian Tax payer dollars must not even be percieved to be used to prop up companies operating overseas and those same assets can be sold to prop up the primary company...Bombardier aerospace.

  52. #52

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    ^ I know I didn't address your grander point, I was just adding that Rotax isn't in there while mulling your grander point.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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    I'm ok with job losses in Quebec but Bombardier has since its inception received billion$ in bailouts, grants etc since its inception. What with Bombardier about to build lrt cars and manage our Valley line lrt, I'm finding this a bitter pill to swallow. Anyone else?
    Last edited by envaneo; 18-02-2016 at 12:33 AM.
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    How about they get the billion as long as they move their operations to Nisku.

  55. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    I'm ok with job losses in Quebec but Bombardier has since its inception received billion$ in bailouts, grants etc since its inception. What with Bombardier about to build lrt cars and manage our Valley line lrt, I'm finding this a bitter pill to swallow. Anyone else?
    Yes, I believe moahunter was also raving incomprehensibly similarly. You guys should go for coffee.
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    ^ I've never used 2 adverbs back-to-back, yeesh. let me guess, you come from Quebec?
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  57. #57

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    Alberta born and raised (if Edmonton counts.)

    Just disgusted by undertaxed Calgarian bigots whining about their hated frenchy rivals subsidies.

    Tax cuts and subsidies are the same thing economically (and likely necessary for Canada to win anything against the EU or US or the low-cost giants), but one industry (oil) rides our Dollar like a rented mule and then leaves us at the altar.

    Fine with nationalising Aerospace and cutting out the family, but moafuckwit (borrowed term from him and he's not banned for whatever reason) can suck pineapple stems with every orfice he can find. His ****** city has gotten everything it has by stealing from Edmonton and Alberta. I have as much sympathy for the idiots as we got leftovers from Loughkleinford.

    And I will use as many adverbs as I ******* want.
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  58. #58

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    As if other countries don't subsidize their aircraft manufacturers. Just look at the US with their military/passenger jet crossovers and all the spinoff technology that they had from military applications. Airbus is awash in subsidies as is Embraer from Brazil.
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 18-02-2016 at 06:03 AM.
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    ^^ What I am sick of, Jaybee, is the Albertan jackasses who pretend to be good old boy conservatives when the good times are rolling, then flip switches completely when they want something for themselves.

    We've gone from these pricks bemoaning any sort of regulation or government activity whatsoever, to demanding massive government interventions in the economy - so long as it benefits them.

    But wait, the selfishness continues. Not only do they demand massive subsidies, they demand that no one else but them should get them. Goes to show that these corporate free market champions are nothing more than greedy and self serving.

    Yes, I am talking about the Wildrose and all of their supporters.

  60. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    We've gone from these pricks bemoaning any sort of regulation or government activity whatsoever, to demanding massive government interventions in the economy - so long as it benefits them.
    Who is demanding massive government intervention? I don't know of any Alberta company that has asked for a government hand out (although the NDP is running around looking for bad business ideas to provide them), what they have asked for, is market access. What conservatives are upset about right now is that Alberta businesses aren't allowed to sell their products for fair price because of interprovincial rivalry. When an Eastern Canada business receives a huge hand out, nobody in the left bats an eye, its normal to prop their more useless loss making companies up with billion dollar government hand outs. The Bombardier hand out is particularly offensive given its a privately controlled mess, by a rich family who has run it into the ground. But when Alberta companies which have been paying billions in taxes to pay for all those subsidies, are going through a tough patch, the government starts talking about implementing national carbon tax strategies (which for some reason don't apply to these aircraft which will burn more carbon than any pipeline ... oh hang on, they are made in eastern Canada and China, so its fine), new environmental hurdles (even thought we already have about the strictest environmental rules in the world), first nation vetoes and other restrictions. Its absurd - producing oil for jet fuel, and transporting it, is dirty and bad, and requires more regulation. But producing commercial and corporate jets which burn that jet fuel and allow people to do luxury travel is high tech and good and requires subsidies. The only difference between the two, is one is in Alberta, and one is in Eastern Canada. Its about time the same rules applied for all.
    Last edited by moahunter; 18-02-2016 at 08:15 AM.

  61. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    As if other countries don't subsidize their aircraft manufacturers. Just look at the US with their military/passenger jet crossovers and all the spinoff technology that they had from military applications. Airbus is awash in subsidies as is Embraer from Brazil.
    Won't argue AirBus/Embrarer, both have been subsidized since the 60s in various incarnations as they couldn't (till fairly recently) produce a decent product and were forced through a series of government demanded mergers to almagamate into what they are now but...

    Let's crack a book on this one
    Just look at the US with their military/passenger jet crossovers
    Boeing privately funded the development of the KC-135 (first jet air to air refueler) to win the contract and then spun off the tech to create the 707 series...damn near broke the company and would have if they had not won the contract. Did the same with the 747 (the first Jumbo) and again damn near broke the company and if it had not been successful they would have failed. Risk equals reward.
    Last edited by Thomas Hinderks; 18-02-2016 at 08:34 AM.

  62. #62

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    New jet from Bombardier nearly broke the company too.

    I am neutral on the bail out. Neither against it nor for it. Show me the economic NET gain.
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  63. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    New jet from Bombardier nearly broke the company too.

    I am neutral on the bail out. Neither against it nor for it. Show me the economic NET gain.
    Well I doubt you'll see it from this company with it's history. It goes beyond the aircraft and ties into their maintenance support systems and regulation as well as the overall attitude they have shown for decades.

    The Canadian government has not helped through a series of factors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    I'm ok with job losses in Quebec but Bombardier has since its inception received billion$ in bailouts, grants etc since its inception. What with Bombardier about to build lrt cars and manage our Valley line lrt, I'm finding this a bitter pill to swallow. Anyone else?
    Of course. They have had handouts before, now they build here..UGH

  65. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    ^^ What I am sick of, Jaybee, is the Albertan jackasses who pretend to be good old boy conservatives when the good times are rolling, then flip switches completely when they want something for themselves.

    We've gone from these pricks bemoaning any sort of regulation or government activity whatsoever, to demanding massive government interventions in the economy - so long as it benefits them.

    But wait, the selfishness continues. Not only do they demand massive subsidies, they demand that no one else but them should get them. Goes to show that these corporate free market champions are nothing more than greedy and self serving.

    Yes, I am talking about the Wildrose and all of their supporters.
    Completely agreed.

    Total hypocrisy.
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    Actually, I think "higher learning tution" stuff they should offer hypocrisy 101 as a real world course as it seems to have become an art in itself. Getting fed up.

  67. #67

    Default Bombardier defends outsourcing

    Conservative lawmaker Maxime Bernier disagrees. The MP for Quebec’s Beauce riding told the House of Commons Monday that Bombardier’s desire to boost Q400 content built overseas proves corporate aid is a waste of taxpayer money.

    “While the federal government is preparing to provide $1-billion in financial aid to Bombardier, Bombardier is preparing to send even more jobs abroad,” Mr. Bernier said. “It’s not fair to force small entrepreneurs to pay taxes to fund subsidies to a corporation like Bombardier.”
    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...ticle29313530/

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    Better to have a smaller piece of the pie than no pie at all.
    “Canada is the only country in the world that knows how to live without an identity,”-Marshall McLuhan

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    http://www.profitconfidential.com/st...payer-bailout/

    So they want a billion dollars, then they want to outsource. Unbloody believable.. Have some balls JT and say no. You can do it, you have practically done this to AB!
    Last edited by H.L.; 21-03-2016 at 05:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Conservative lawmaker Maxime Bernier disagrees. The MP for Quebec’s Beauce riding told the House of Commons Monday that Bombardier’s desire to boost Q400 content built overseas proves corporate aid is a waste of taxpayer money.

    “While the federal government is preparing to provide $1-billion in financial aid to Bombardier, Bombardier is preparing to send even more jobs abroad,” Mr. Bernier said. “It’s not fair to force small entrepreneurs to pay taxes to fund subsidies to a corporation like Bombardier.”
    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...ticle29313530/

    Good on him., he's right! Christ how much does one province get??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    Better to have a smaller piece of the pie than no pie at all.
    Diminishing returns kick in. "Here's a billion dollars, just be sure to export even more jobs out of the country".

    You can't make this stuff up.

  72. #72

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    The Liberals should treat bombardier like Alberta has treated the oil industry. In other words, give them everything!

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    Quote Originally Posted by River Valley Green View Post
    The Liberals should treat bombardier like Alberta has treated the oil industry. In other words, give them everything!
    That's what they have been doing, for years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hello lady View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Conservative lawmaker Maxime Bernier disagrees. The MP for Quebec’s Beauce riding told the House of Commons Monday that Bombardier’s desire to boost Q400 content built overseas proves corporate aid is a waste of taxpayer money.

    “While the federal government is preparing to provide $1-billion in financial aid to Bombardier, Bombardier is preparing to send even more jobs abroad,” Mr. Bernier said. “It’s not fair to force small entrepreneurs to pay taxes to fund subsidies to a corporation like Bombardier.”
    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...ticle29313530/

    Good on him., he's right! Christ how much does one province get??
    Quebec really considers themselves as a separate entity and will milk their neighbors, Canada, for every dollar possible. It's been going on for many decades, and will continue on for many more. They kind of got us by the gonads with their seperating and breaking up Canada hype. We gotta pay the ransom.

  75. #75

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    Yet Oil Calgary is bawling its poor widdle eyes out about firewalls and we don't see that...
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    Be honest Drumbones, I bet in 95 you voted to keep Quebec. I did and I regret it now.
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  77. #77

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    ^ You have no idea how well you represent your cause.
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    Even Tom Mulcair during the last election said that if he got elected PM he would work hard to give Quebec special status.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/tom-...lass-1.3125589
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    I think that if you give them a bailout they should give up a certain percentage of the shares. Canadians have put in a lot of money into Bombardier, so why shouldn't Canadians gain some ownership.

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Even Tom Mulcair during the last election said that if he got elected PM he would work hard to give Quebec special status.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/tom-...lass-1.3125589
    He lives there, number one problem with most politicians from there.

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    In some ways I agree with Mulcair, Quebec should have a special status. However it should be a separate country, Canada can't continue with the current governing model where money is continually going to Quebec with very little to show for it.

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    ^ Consider Quebec represents about 20% of Canada's GDP, but has the highest debt ration of any other province. Is it time to let Quebec go? Should Quebec Independence be part of the National conversation?
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    Vive le France, Vive le Montreal, Vive le Quebec, Vive le Quebec libre

  84. #84

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    I'm glad to see this conversation has devolved into the honest bigotry it is.

    "Nevermind the issue, it's the location of the HQ we don't like!"
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    I'm glad to see this conversation has devolved into the honest bigotry it is.

    "Nevermind the issue, it's the location of the HQ we don't like!"
    Oh please...

  86. #86

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    Please what?

    This is a conversation about the evil frenchies, right?
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    I'm not bigoted about Quebec, they really are more different than similar to the rest of Canada. Language and culture do play a part in the difference. We are probably more similar to United States than we are to Quebec.

    The only hope of Canada lasting 150 more years is if all provinces are treated equally on a per capita basis, and with our current constitution, supreme court and senate structuring that isn't going to happen.

    The Supreme Court is made up 9 judges, 3 from Quebec, the rest of Canada has the other 6 typically 3 from Ontario, 1 from BC, 1 from the prairie provinces, 1 from the Atlantic provinces.

    The Senate is made up 105 senators, 24 Ontario, 24 Quebec, 10 Nova Scotia, 10 New Brunswick, 4 PEI, 6-AB, 6-BC, 6-SK, NL-6, NT-1, NU-1, YK-1, PEI has about 150,000 people with 4 senators, vs. Alberta's 3,000,000 with 6 senators.

    The House of Commons is far more proportional to population, however the constitution does set disproportionate minimums.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_...mons_of_Canada

    I can accept the senate having a different model not based on population, but perhaps it should be 10 senators per province, and 1 for each territory.

    I don't think it's bigotry at all, I just want equality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sundance View Post
    In some ways I agree with Mulcair, Quebec should have a special status. However it should be a separate country, Canada can't continue with the current governing model where money is continually going to Quebec with very little to show for it.
    This is the issue that needs to be discussed more. Why, with all the assistance Quebec has gotten over the last 50 years, do they still have such an abysmal economic state?

    The discussion is always misdirected into a debate about equalization, but the formula isn't the problem. Equalization makes a lot of sense. The issue is that Quebec doesn't seem to be capable (or perhaps even willing) of pulling itself out of their current state.

    Quebec has abundant natural resources, a huge labour force with high rates of education and skills training, direct access to the US market and extremely easy access to international waters, and an immense amount of infrastructure to make it work.

    So why is it that Quebec still has such a low labour force participation rate? Why do residents of Quebec who are employed work less productive man-hours and miss more work than in other provinces? Why has Quebec wholesale failed to effectively exploit its mass amounts of natural resources? Why has Quebec continued to set up tax and regulatory regimes that stifle small and medium businesses (even while propping up gigantic corporations that outsource employees like Bombardier)?

    I see nothing wrong with helping parts of the country that need it. However, Quebec is not the territories. Quebec is not Atlantic Canada. Quebec has all of the ingredients necessary for economic success, but chooses to squander them.

    Perhaps we need some sort of mechanism like those employed by the World Bank or IMF in which we mandate provincial policy changes in return for continued transfers to Quebec.

  89. #89

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    I have a great idea for how to improve Québec! Let's put all the employees of one of their largest companies on EI and then welfare!

    ******* genius!
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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    A strong economy doesn't come from the behemoth corporations like Bombardier. Quite the opposite: the behemoth corporations often suck domestic economies dry.

    Growth and employment comes from a robust SME sector and entrepreneurial spirit. A billion dollars would be better spent on tax cuts for small businesses than a bailout for one giant corporation.

    Mind you I would rather see any further transfers come with the requirement to make policy changes in quebec to reduce the public debt load and set up a fair regulatory structure to enable the exploitation of resources.

  91. #91

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    ^^^ Further to your thoughts

    Toronto displaced Montréal is Canada's largest city during the 1960s. Since the 1971 census, when the two Metropolitan areas were nearly identical size, Toronto has added approximately 3 million people, while Montréal has added approximately 1,000,000 (Figure 1).

    This shift is exceptional within the high-income world over the past half century. Toronto's ascendancy was in large part precipitated by the move by Québec, in which Montréal is the largest city, to assert the primacy of the French language even though much of the Montréal business community was Anglophone. Many of these businesses, and some of their employees, decamped to Toronto.
    http://www.newgeography.com/content/...n-form-toronto


    Prior to 1971, Montreal was the largest city, largest industrial base, largest transportation hub, banking capital, insurance capital, busiest airport, fashion capital etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    Vive le France, Vive le Montreal, Vive le Quebec, Vive le Quebec libre
    http://www.torontosun.com/2016/01/23...ation-payments
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  93. #93

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    You know, I could take some of you more seriously if you would let on that you know something (anything?) about either the aerospace or passenger rail markets or the company or economic policy (goodness forbid), but Quebec seems to be all you're even talking about...
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    Maybe it's the provincial low of 35% of people in Quebec think Alberta should have some federal support during this crisis.

    But hey - just keep funneling the monies over.

  95. #95

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    ^ like I was saying...

    Maybe make a thread for anti-Quebec whining?
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    ^ How is exposing the truth whining? Since 1960 Alberta has given billion$ to Quebec in equalization payments. You want to talk about whining? How about Quebec post secondary students demanding they should get free education? And now a corrupt aerospace industry wants billion$ more. Everything in Quebec is corrupt, from their politicians to some of their mafia run construction companies. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.
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  97. #97

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    ^ Call it whatever you want in that other thread. Seriously, make a thread called "exposing the truth whining" and get right to it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    ^ like I was saying...

    Maybe make a thread for anti-Quebec whining?
    I haven't said much in this thread but decided to finally say it's horseh1t that...well....maybe this will explain it better.


  99. #99

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    ^ watch out! the Evil Frenchies gonna gettya!

    So anyways, Bombardier?
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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    Look at the picture above. A reasonable summary.

    And it has everything to do with Bombardier.

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