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Thread: Southpark Redevelopment - Proposed

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    Default Southpark Redevelopment - Proposed

    Last edited by IanO; 09-12-2015 at 08:25 AM.
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    Great to see, thanks Ian.

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    I'm guessing we will see a rezoning application to allow residential uses?

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    CB2 resi is discretionary, but at a max height of 16m, they surely will be going for a comprehensive DC2.
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    Ummmmm...yummy! All of it please and ASAP!

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    200 residential units and 131,000 sqft retail.

    http://www.wamdevelopment.com/about-...ical-timeline/

    I am pleasantly surprised to see that they're looking at redeveloping this car dealership. Great location for this type of project.
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    At 200 units then maybe no rezoning? But with Stanny involved I would still guess yes.
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    (DC2) Site Specific Development Control Provision
    Part IV Edmonton Zoning Bylaw

    Section DC2.443

    Bylaw 11534 (as amended)
    July 16, 1997
    DC2.443.1. General Purpose

    To establish a Site Specific Development Control District to accommodate an accessory parking lot for vehicles being serviced at the automotive dealership located on Lots 1 to 7, inclusive, Block 64, Plan I, such that, by developing sensitive site development regulations, impacts on surrounding residential areas are minimized.
    DC2.443.2. Area of Application

    This DC5 District shall apply to Lots 28 to 32, inclusive, and the easterly 2.4 m (8 ft.) throughout Lot 27, Block 64, Plan I, located west of 106 Street, north of 81 Avenue, Queen Alexandra.
    DC2.443.3. Use

    Accessory Parking for the exclusive use of the Automotive and Minor Recreation Vehicle Sales/Rentals use located north of the site, on Lots 1 to 7, inclusive, Block 64, Plan I, to park cars scheduled for servicing.
    DC2.443.4. Development Criteria

    Parking on the site shall be restricted to a surface parking lot.

    The parking lot shall not be used as an extension of the vehicle retail or sales area associated with the Automotive and Minor Recreation Vehicle Sales/Rentals use located north of the site.

    The size of parking spaces and aisles on this site shall comply with Section 66.3 of the Land Use Bylaw.

    The following required yards shall be provided:

    along 81 Avenue, a minimum of 6 m (19.7 ft.) in width from the south property line;

    along the west property line; a minimum of 3 m (9.84 ft.) in width; and

    along 106 Street, a minimum of 4.5 m (14.8 ft.) in width from the east property line.

    Required yards shall be landscaped in accordance with Section 69 of the Land Use Bylaw.

    The parking lot shall be asphalt paved and drained.

    Vehicular access to the site shall be restricted to the abutting lane.

    No parking, loading, storage, trash collection, outdoor service or display areas shall be permitted within a required yard. Loading, storage and trash collection areas shall be located to the north side of the parking lot and shall be screened from view from any adjacent residential sites or public roadways, in accordance with Section 69.4 of the Land Use Bylaw.

    Lighting shall be directed downwards and away from the adjacent residential areas and roadways and the intensity of the illumination shall not extend beyond the boundaries of the site. No exposed bulbs or strings of lights shall be used.

    Signs shall be developed in accordance with Schedule 79B of the Land Use Bylaw. Notwithstanding Schedule 79B, no signs shall be allowed along 81 Avenue, the west property line or 106 Street and no illuminated signs shall be allowed on the site.

    Solid screen fencing constructed of wood or a suitable wood-like synthetic substitute, 1.83 m (6.0 ft.) in height, designed to the satisfaction of the Development Officer, shall be placed along the west property line and augmented with landscaping features designed to soften the visual effect of the required fencing.

    No flags, banners, pennants, streamers or other promotional or decorative materials shall be allowed which will draw attention to the site.

    For this District the development shall be considered complete and the term "completion of development", as used in Section 69.6(7) of the Land Use Bylaw, satisfied once the asphalt surface for the parking area has been installed.

    DC2.443 Map

    http://webdocs.edmonton.ca/ZoningBylaw/DC2/Dc2.htm
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    sidebar: Any chance we can see Edmonton Motors do the same thing on Jasper Ave anytime soon?

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    ^There had been some rumours, but if WAM is looking at Southpark, it could be a few years off.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    At 200 units then maybe no rezoning? But with Stanny involved I would still guess yes.
    Some info I saw indicated way, way more units than that. 200 would be for a single site.
    Last edited by Marcel Petrin; 07-12-2015 at 02:13 PM.

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    Ok, that makes A LOT more sense.
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    Now this is the type of infill scale we need at this part of Whyte. Gonna expect to hear a lot of "buh-buh-heritage area!" shrieks from the OSBA pearl-clutchers, though.

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    There's nothing heritage about these buildings. Perhaps the old neon signs can be saved and moved to 104 street, or have those already been removed?

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    ^The concern from OSBA is going to be over height mostly. Their 'Save Whyte Ave' campaign mostly focuses on this item.

    http://www.oldstrathconafoundation.ca/
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    The retail square footage has to be pretty close to the overall land area, so does that mean there will be retail on 81ave as well, or two storiesof retail on whyte?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenSPACE View Post
    ^The concern from OSBA is going to be over height mostly. Their 'Save Whyte Ave' campaign mostly focuses on this item.

    http://www.oldstrathconafoundation.ca/
    This group sure likes to shoot themselves in the foot often.

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    Thanks for the post of the details, Ian. Was unsure what I was posting in the "Vacant Spaces" thread a while back when I linked this development. Very interesting. Only heard about this because the Old Strath Federation went "ape".
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenSPACE View Post
    ^The concern from OSBA is going to be over height mostly. Their 'Save Whyte Ave' campaign mostly focuses on this item.

    http://www.oldstrathconafoundation.ca/
    The OSBA typically intertwines height and heritage concerns into the same parcel, accepting the premise that a tall structure would detract from the area's low-rise historical flavor. (Or something.)

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    As some were saying in the other thread, it might be more likely that we'd see the "tower" on 81 ave, and a more stringent opposition to height and likely compromise with respect to the property directly on Whyte Avenue. The Mezzo has a commercial podium facing 105 st and townhomes along 81 ave... so not sure if an expansion of commercial units along 81 ave would fly - though I would like it to be supported, myself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Perhaps the old neon signs can be saved and moved to 104 street, or have those already been removed?
    No, they're still there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doppelganger View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Perhaps the old neon signs can be saved and moved to 104 street, or have those already been removed?
    No, they're still there.
    They would be great additions to the Neon Museum
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    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    OMG they killed Kenny!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post


    never has a video so accurately described the city of portbrooktoroncouver

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    Quote Originally Posted by sundance View Post
    OMG they killed Kenny!!!
    1. They haven't killed Kenny in like a decade
    2. Season 19 could be the best season yet. If you don't watch, you should
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    New story
    http://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/video?cli...ylistPageNum=1

    Pretty much what you'd expect
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Be nice to be able to post those "story boards" Simon had. I know they are ideas - but they do inform some of the potential. I would like to see this proceed and support high rise development in this area.

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    Start the erosion of the intangible heritage of the avenue? Yeah those parking lots and car dealerships are super historical. I get protecting the vibe and history of Whyte, but that doesn't mean you have to be against anything new that might be built.

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    deleted
    Last edited by GreenSPACE; 08-12-2015 at 10:49 PM.
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    Just make it known that there will be new bars opening along the bottom and everyone will be happy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drumbones View Post
    just make it known that there will be new bars and donair pit stops opening along the bottom and everyone will be happy.
    ftfy
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Well, she WAS right, this development will change the area... by allowing hundreds of people to move into the area.
    They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?

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    It is not a museum! Many cities around the world have seen beautiful, modern designs and density blended into such areas. Who is that b*tch to prevent many other people who want to live near Whyte Ave from being able to do so?

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    Quote Originally Posted by EdmTrekker View Post
    Be nice to be able to post those "story boards" Simon had. I know they are ideas - but they do inform some of the potential. I would like to see this proceed and support high rise development in this area.
    Check the 1st page or here:

    http://www.oldstrathconafoundation.c...-projects/cetl
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    I would love to see more "historic" looking buildings along whyte here. Problem is unless there's some facades of some old similar sized buildings in storage we don't know about, it's pretty unlikely to happen. I would much rather have well designed newer looking buildings here than a car dealership parking lot.

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    I'd love brick, glass, steel, wood, but not faux historic, good quality modern design with high-quality materials.
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    Yes faux historic sucks, which is why I said unless there's some awesome surprise historic facade sitting in a warehouse somewhere ( like Alberta Hotel, KR building) do the design from scratch properly.

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    I don't mind the designs, except for Mezzo's balconies ... just too clunky, glass balconies look so much better.

    As for Southpark I stopped at about season 5, to me the 1st season was the best, tailed off after that. But people think Season 16 is about the worst;
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prairie Boy View Post
    Who is that b*tch to prevent many other people who want to live near Whyte Ave from being able to do so?
    I'm all for sensible Whyte Ave densification, too, but this is not the type of language this debate needs or deserves. Jeez Louise.

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    Sorry, I kinda went all NeNe there!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    New story
    http://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/video?cli...ylistPageNum=1

    Pretty much what you'd expect
    "start the erosion of that intangible heritage character"

    - Karen Taber, Old Strathcona Foundation


    Aside from the sign there is absolutely nothing heritage about what is currently on the site. In fact it's located on the portion of Whyte Ave that didn't maintain it's heritage character. And based on what the VP from Stantec said in that story, WAM is looking at bringing in a design philosophy that would actually fit in with the portion of Whyte Ave further east.


    https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2823/9...525877fcc7.jpg


    http://zkahlina.ca/eng/wp-content/up...0/DSC_2063.jpg
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    ^And those are the NICE pictures.
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    What was there before the dealership?

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    That dealership has been there, at least, since the early 80s I believe. I don't recall anything else. Any ultra old timers out there lol?

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    According Don Wheaton's website they've been around since 1963
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    Realistically, I like Whyte Ave. to remain as is and have developments directly behind it.

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    Evolution does not mean losing the current feel. We need whyte to reinvent itself a little bit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    According Don Wheaton's website they've been around since 1963
    been there as long as i can remember and i was born in 1963.

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    It could well have changed hands before then. Maybe Herzog has an article on it.

    Guess another question would be this: is the dealership actually relocating? If so, where?
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    The proposed development is to replace what is basically a big parking lot. The Southpark dealership actually combined with Don Wheaton Chevrolet. They use the proposed site as storage. While useful to the dealership it doesn't necessarily attract many customers to their dealership or to the other whyte ave businesses. There has been some business turn over on whyte ave and could use an influx of potential customers. Historic aside, if no one is coming to whyte other than to party than it can't survive so then the historic aspect becomes useless. More development could actually prolong the life of such historic sites generate more tax revenue and attract new business.

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    Anybody know if this is part of the proposed Southpark Redevelopment?


    Southpark Development? by Chris Vazquez, on Flickr

    Artist rendering of one of the buildings being proposed for Edmonton's Whyte Avenue.
    From here: http://edmontonjournal.com/life/home...old-strathcona

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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisvazquez7 View Post
    Anybody know if this is part of the proposed Southpark Redevelopment?


    Southpark Development? by Chris Vazquez, on Flickr

    Artist rendering of one of the buildings being proposed for Edmonton's Whyte Avenue.
    From here: http://edmontonjournal.com/life/home...old-strathcona
    That looks like one of the buildings on 81 Avenue from the first post.

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    I'd kill to have street-front townhousing that looked liked that in Edmonton. Not right on Whyte though - a block back.
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    So I have a bit of a question in regards to architectural styles acceptable to be built on this property or even in general to the city. Is it wrong to design a building in Art Deco or Edwardian or Victorian or whatever older architectural style that may exist? Is any or all of these styles unacceptable now and all considered if used, faux historic? What is the acceptable architectural styles?
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    Just reposting the newly released renders here, as this thread is more recent









    http://www.gblarchitects.com/work/south-park-on-whyte/
    Last edited by chrisvazquez7; 09-02-2016 at 06:35 PM.

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    My only worry is that the street level won't blend with the character of Whyte. No problem with the height, massing, etc.
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    It fits just fine. Brick, wood beams, steel. Love it.

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    I love that they are keeping the dealership sign
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    Looks great to me. Hopefully they would put dedicated bike lanes on 106th.

    Can't wait to see what the NIMBYs from the Old Strathcona society have to say.

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    Wow Whyte Ave, almost left you for dead after the Shopper's Drug Mart tower collapse. Like the one time I ever went along with Bill Smith.

    Looks awesome.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    Looks great to me. Hopefully they would put dedicated bike lanes on 106th.

    Can't wait to see what the NIMBYs from the Old Strathcona society have to say.
    Looks like the lanes are there, but unmarked and flanked by parking. I'd love to see that become a real skinny one-way for cars.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etownboarder View Post
    It fits just fine. Brick, wood beams, steel. Love it.
    My mistake. I thought the 81st Ave side was the Whyte Ave side. I agree... looks good.
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    Fantastic looking proposal. Are those street level townhouse entrances I see on the south side? Exciting.

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    Retained signage is a must. I wish someone would re-install some rail arms over on Gateway...
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    Fantastic. Take my money now.

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    I would like to see the sign remain on Whyte Avenue though.

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    ^ ?? It's literally in all the renders.
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    It looks like it is moved onto a street half a block off Whyte.

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    ^ oh, you're right, I didn't look at the aerial render carefully. My bad.

    Agree it ideally stays as close to the original spot as possible, it's a landmark we can all remember. Yet on a scale from 0 (golf course development in Calgary) to 10 (putting unique-in-region attractions beside an industrial park with poor transit access), this gets about a 2 for how doggedly I'll maintain that.
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    Not bad, townhouses good, don't like the density between towers.
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    I do wish they'd show a rendering looking east or west along Whyte though. From the renderings they did show it looks fine. I imagine the trapezoidal buildings give more people a river (or Whyte Avenue) view from the higher stories. I have mixed feelings about the overhanging floors, good for pedestrians when its raining or snowing.

    All in all I do hope it gets built.

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    What I imagine the Old Strathcona Foundation's reaction to this will be:


    http://bestride.com/blog/wp-content/.../angry-mob.png
    Last edited by ScottieA; 10-02-2016 at 10:27 AM.
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    Just like in the SODOSOPA video, they have even built it around Kenny's house. That salon on the corner of 106 and 81 ave is going to feel pretty out of place.

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    Depending on how the Mezzo goes, this one could be just as contentious at Council. It will require a lot of letters or presentations of support if you want to see it go ahead.
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    This proposal is far better than I imagined. And I thought they would be proposing towers, this massing is in line with the kind of thing you'd see in other large cities. The building step back from Whyte is great. Love the pedestrianized street.
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    One steps back the other seems to encroach the sidewalk space. Picture 1 looks to be at odds with pics 3 and 4 as to how the building on the northwest side of the site is positioned.

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    ^Looks fine to me. All the same rendering, just different camera angles.
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    Pictures three and four show the building between 106 and 107 streets actually cantilevering over the sidewalk on Whyte Avenue so I don't understand how you think it steps back from the avenue.

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    Not overhanging Whyte Avenue but overhanging the 106th Street sidewalk. South is the top of figure 4, the Southpark sign would be moved to the west side of 106th Street.

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    Southpark sign is shown on the east side of 106 Street.

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    You're right SP, north is on top. They should have put labels on Whyte and 106th in the rendering.

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    You sure those are current? I didn't think GBL was involved in this.

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    The sign in its current condition (complete with a bird's nest in the middle):




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    That would look great at the Neon Sign Museum if they decide not to incorporate it into the project.
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    ^i hope they do. Loved the feature in the renderings. It's really quite a nice piece.

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    That would be great at the museum, although would it fit?
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

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    ^ You could mount it on the sidewalk, maybe right on the corner of 104 St and 104 Ave kind of like a marker for the museum from a distance.

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    It would look great on Whyte Avenue as well.

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    Fix it up and put in at the Neon Museum downtown.

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    I hope they keep it on Whyte. These signs bring a lot of character to the area. Will help to tie the new development to the history of site.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    I hope they keep it on Whyte. These signs bring a lot of character to the area. Will help to tie the new development to the history of site.
    Agree. Give it a tune up and keep it on Whyte. If we pull everything that made Whyte unique, it'll just be another sterile strip mall.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    Seeing how Raymond Block's development cost is around $40 million, I'm curious to know what each of these "stages"? will come in at. Even if they were reduced to 8 or 11 stories, I'd imagine quite the price tag to develop any one of these lots. Could we speculate the added potential resources these phases would add to the community BRZ?
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

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    Advocates worried Mezzo approval means more towers inevitable for Whyte Avenue

    http://www.metronews.ca/news/edmonto...ampaign=buffer
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

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    I do get annoyed with the fact that some people want to keep things as they have been and never ever change it. I'm not saying everything has to change but some change is always healthy.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

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    ^You get the impression that some of these advocates have never spent time in pedestrian-friendly cities.

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    Did Edmonton council make a 16-storey mistake approving Old Scona tower?

    Opponents of The Mezzo made a number of compelling arguments:
    • The original vision to save the then rundown Whyte Ave area in the 1970s was to preserve the remaining Edwardian buildings and to build on the scale of those old businesses. Old Scona is one of only two designated Provincial Historic Areas in the province, and the exceptional height and the mass of The Mezzo does not jibe with that designation. “It will diminish the heritage value of a designated provincial historic area,” city planner Peter Odinga said.
    • Two taller buildings did get built in the heart of Old Scona in the bad old days, the eight-storey Metterra Hotel right on Whyte itself and the 14-storey Heritage House on 84 Avenue, so the plan has always been to prevent more modern buildings and especially tall ones.
    • Old Scona has numerous walk-ups and is already one of the densest mature neighbourhoods in the city. It’s open to more density, but doesn’t want to become a lesser version of downtown with all kinds of towers.
    • Approving The Mezzo means developers will want to build more towers, said Shirley Lowe, a longtime Old Scona booster: “It will make the buildings that don’t have protection very vulnerable, and that means that instead of replacing them with two- or three-storey buildings, it will now be 10-, 12-, 14-, 20-storey buildings. So it will be downtown; it won’t be Strathcona anymore.”
    • City planners refused to recommend proceeding with The Mezzo because it is out of whack with current plans and policies. If you go by the city’s guidelines for residential towers, the notion is to build an excellent podium at street level, as the Mezzo plan has, but to have a skinny or point tower on top, not a wide, blocky tower, as seen with The Mezzo. Said longtime Old Scona resident Dagny Alston: “It counters all the qualities that have made Whyte Avenue and its neighbouring communities attractive and successful. Some have mused that it will give the Post Office a hug. I would propose it’s like a hug from a King Kong-size gorilla, big, fat.”
    • The vibe of Old Scona comes partly from its vistas, which will now be ruined, Alston said. “The vista of the Post Office will never be seen again as the vista of the Post Office. It will always be seen as the backshadow to a 16-storey very modern building … That will weaken the city because it will lose the flavour and character of this particular neighbourhood.”
    http://edmontonjournal.com/business/...ld-scona-tower

    Shirley Lowe does come across as a Chicken Little with her fears that Whyte Ave will be leveled in favor of towers.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    ^ from the same article

    Of course, city council heard all these arguments yet quite rightly voted to approve The Mezzo. Why?
    The majority opinion was that The Mezzo is off Whyte by a half-block, so its negative impact and shadowing of the historic avenue will be negligible. On the plus side, it will provide social housing and affordable apartments, bringing hundreds of new clients to avenue businesses. Most councillors also loved the building’s handsome and architecturally sensitive podium structure, which is what people on the street will notice most. Councillors also noted Edmonton’s imperative to densify, which means Old Scona is going to have to go higher, too.
    Mayor Don Iveson put it best when he noted the impact of The Mezzo is to set the bar high for any future developer that wants to build an Old Scona tower. To me, that’s the real message here, that we need to build higher in Old Scona, but the new mid-rise towers have got to be excellent. They also can’t be on Whyte Avenue itself and must complement that great street, not overshadow or significantly shadow it.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Well I am biased, but if any developers want to come to 82 ave on the east side of the millcreek ravine bridge, there are some empty pieces of land that I would gladly welcome a development like southpark or the mezzo.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

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    I would hope there would be brakes on slash and burn and an absolute moratorium on heritage structures, but Southpark???

    It's a surface parking lot.

    Come on Shirley. We're not going back to surface sewage ditches either, heritage or not.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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