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Thread: Refugees for Canada, Alberta and Edmonton?

  1. #101

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    Meh, people probably said the same thing when all the Lebanese came in droves during their war. Now nobody bats an eye, and we all enjoy eating late. Not a big deal.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Meh, people probably said the same thing when all the Lebanese came in droves during their war. Now nobody bats an eye, and we all enjoy eating late. Not a big deal.
    Yeah, I think times have changed.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hello lady View Post
    One family in Edmonton( just one ) are a family of 18, what a joke!
    Think of the monthly family allowance/child tax credit cheques federal and now provincial. Substantial.
    Very substantial, sigh,,

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Meh, people probably said the same thing when all the Lebanese came in droves during their war. Now nobody bats an eye, and we all enjoy eating late. Not a big deal.
    But it has resulted in too many donair pit stops on Whyte!

    How about the massive influx of south Asians during the 70s? Many people fled unrest and disasters there at the time, including wars between India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, and the big cyclone of 1971. Hell, Millwoods grew overnight because of this immigration wave. Did Albertans at the time recoil in fear of Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims? Or fear of delicious spicy food?

    Or going further back, how about the refugees from Europe to Canada during the world wars, fascist regimes, Communist revolutions, Holodomor, Holocaust, etc. Were these people OK? Was there a fear of bringing Jews, Nazis and Communists into Canada back then?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    [ Did Albertans at the time recoil in fear of Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims?
    Well, not under those names, because most people from the Indian subcontinent and associated diasporas got lumped in under one particularly vitriolic racial-slur word, which I will not repeat here. I could also cite you some pretty vile graffiti, not to mention numerous racist jokes, as evidence of the fairly widespread(albeit informal) hatred directed against East Indians at the time.

    TL/DR: Yeah, a lot of people in late 70s/early 80s Edmonton really hated East Indians.

  6. #106

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    ^And now nobody really cares.

    So the bigots and racists will hate on the Syrians for a few years, then move on to hating the next wave. The good news is maybe people will start getting along with Somalians, since they were the last wave.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  7. #107
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    The bigots and racists always pounce on newcomers. And when they get tired of hating the latest darker skinned group, there is always the Natives to fall back on.

    It has nothing to do with the target, and everything to do with the bigots and racists.

  8. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    Or going further back, how about the refugees from Europe to Canada during the world wars, fascist regimes, Communist revolutions, Holodomor, Holocaust, etc. Were these people OK? Was there a fear of bringing Jews, Nazis and Communists into Canada back then?
    My dad had rocks thrown at him as a German immigrant in Saskatchewan during the mid-50s.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Happily ignoring the ignorant rather than getting in a battle of wits with unarmed opponents.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by overoceans View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    [ Did Albertans at the time recoil in fear of Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims?
    Well, not under those names, because most people from the Indian subcontinent and associated diasporas got lumped in under one particularly vitriolic racial-slur word, which I will not repeat here. I could also cite you some pretty vile graffiti, not to mention numerous racist jokes, as evidence of the fairly widespread(albeit informal) hatred directed against East Indians at the time.

    TL/DR: Yeah, a lot of people in late 70s/early 80s Edmonton really hated East Indians.
    And faded away because those of us who were kids then played and made friends with the immigrant kids. A generation later and they're cabinet ministers.

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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    The bigots and racists always pounce on newcomers. And when they get tired of hating the latest darker skinned group, there is always the Natives to fall back on.

    It has nothing to do with the target, and everything to do with the bigots and racists.
    I will note that the bigots today do seem to have a bit more of an idea of who it is they're supposed to be hating, and why. Specifically, they link middle east immigration(more or less accurately) with the Muslim faith, which they dislike. Of course, their understanding of this faith is sketchy, at best, but if you were to ask them why they dislike Muslims, most of them would probably point to some news item involving Muslims in a bad light.

    Whereas the anti-East Indian people in the late 70s were generally clueless about the religion, or anything else to do with, the immigrants in question. For the most part, it really did seem like just pure, old-fashioned colour-prejudice, with a bit of hostility toward "strange" clothing thrown in. In fact, the common slur word referenced a country that many of those immigrants didn't even come, or claim descent, from.

    Not that a smarter breed of bigot represents much an improvement.
    Last edited by overoceans; 13-11-2015 at 02:57 PM.

  11. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    My dad had rocks thrown at him as a German immigrant in Saskatchewan during the mid-50s.
    My dad who is Dutch, and saw his older brothers taken to factories in germany, probably would have happily been one of the ones throwing them...

  12. #112

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    That doesn't surprise me in the least, given how his offspring have turned out. You certainly didn't fall far from that tree.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Happily ignoring the ignorant rather than getting in a battle of wits with unarmed opponents.

  13. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    My dad had rocks thrown at him as a German immigrant in Saskatchewan during the mid-50s.
    My dad who is Dutch, and saw his older brothers taken to factories in germany, probably would have happily been one of the ones throwing them...
    Trees and forests.

    For most people, there's times when they see people as individuals with individual characteristics and thoughts and opinions, and other times when they see them as a group, mindless, ideologically or genetically inseparable clones. Of course, then there may be those people at the extremes, some that only see the forest and never the trees, and others that only see the trees and never the forest.

  14. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    That doesn't surprise me in the least, given how his offspring have turned out. You certainly didn't fall far from that tree.
    Providing proof that: 'Whatever one says or does, WILL be used against them'?

  15. #115

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    With the low vacancy rate in Edmonton, even after the oil crashes, where are we going to house the immigrants? With many oil workers getting laid off and now back in Edmonton, not sure will Edmonton be able to meet the housing need? Housing/rental prices are still very high in Edmonton.

  16. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by cauctioneer View Post
    With the low vacancy rate in Edmonton, even after the oil crashes, where are we going to house the immigrants? With many oil workers getting laid off and now back in Edmonton, not sure will Edmonton be able to meet the housing need? Housing/rental prices are still very high in Edmonton.
    As I've been saying, we could probably quite rapidly create suitable temporary accommodation in some closed workcamp. Those who are getting laid off may be freeing up space that can be redeployed to a new camp. Moreover, we've had a near boom in hotel accommodation throughout Alberta so slack is likely being created there too.

    This could be the seed, to a longer term means for taking in and transitioning refugees into daily life in Alberta or Canada. We could be a hub for taking in people, training them in English or French, schooling them in aspects of life in Canada, temporarily employing them in places around Alberta and then allowing them to use Alberta as a jumping off spot for permanent lives across Canada.

    It would also diversify our own economy. (Just as getting a military base is a huge coup for sustainable ongoing funding and hence considerable multiplier effects - way beyond the odd rock group attending a local venue once in a while - that oddly gets all the coverage.)
    Last edited by KC; 13-11-2015 at 04:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cauctioneer View Post
    With the low vacancy rate in Edmonton, even after the oil crashes, where are we going to house the immigrants? With many oil workers getting laid off and now back in Edmonton, not sure will Edmonton be able to meet the housing need? Housing/rental prices are still very high in Edmonton.
    I wouldn't expect more than a few hundred would be coming to Edmonton although we could easily handle a thousand. We've been absorbing far more than that from the rest of Canada for years.

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  18. #118

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    We should have a welcoming party! Tims and toques.

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    Refugee agencies in Alberta prepare to welcome 3,000 Syrians

    Sounds like about 1500 coming to Edmonton.

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  20. #120

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    ... And happy not to be settled in Europe and facing all kinds of irrational hatred.

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  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    ... And happy not to be settled in Europe and facing all kinds of irrational hatred.
    What sanctimonious bullsh1t, you need look no further than this thread to see how pathetic that statement is.
    "The only really positive thing one could say about Vancouver is, it’s not the rest of Canada." Oink (britishexpats.com)

  23. #123

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    It's almost guaranteed that increasingly large numbers of europeans are going to increasingly make like difficult for refugees there. So, it's not sanctimonious at all. If a similar attack were to happen here, people would lump all refugees into a single potential-terrorist-basket and treat them to the worst Canada can offer. (Just think back to WWII and our treatment of immigrant and native born Japanese.) Those arriving here at least have a greater hope that we can still see them rationslly for what they are and not adopt some fear driven mass delusion about their motives.

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    Why are they coming here? To change Canada into a muslum country! Why dont they stay on their own country and fight for it? If they abandon their own country, what good are they to use?
    Over 600 million $$ to bring them over, and they may need treatment from psychiatrists and may bring TB with them. Yup, this is good all around
    On this thread alone... You need to pull your head out of your arse if you think Canada is somehow as immune to bigotry as you seem to believe it is.
    Last edited by expat; 13-11-2015 at 07:27 PM.
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  25. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by expat View Post
    Why are they coming here? To change Canada into a muslum country! Why dont they stay on their own country and fight for it? If they abandon their own country, what good are they to use?
    Over 600 million $$ to bring them over, and they may need treatment from psychiatrists and may bring TB with them. Yup, this is good all around
    On this thread alone... You need to pull your head out of your arse if you think Canada is somehow as immune to bigotry as you seem to believe is be.
    It's a matter of resistance and not immunity. You're falling into the same trap of generalizing and ignoring context.


    Interesting read...
    http://www.haaretz.com/world-news/.premium-1.675832

  26. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by expat View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    ... And happy not to be settled in Europe and facing all kinds of irrational hatred.
    What sanctimonious bullsh1t, you need look no further than this thread to see how pathetic that statement is.
    Bingo.
    KC does tend to get sanctimonious as he does not want his image of the Father/Mother Teresa of the forum to look anything but pristine. I wonder how many immigrants he/she is hosting in his/her home?.
    I have not voiced my opinion of the refugee crisis but I look forward to the forum SJW's replies of what I mean even though I have not voiced an opinion on it. It's always a laugh to hear what the ever so political correct think of the lowly hoi polloi in these kinds of situations. I often wonder if some of these guys work for social agencies and are rubbing their hands in glee over all the double time late meetings they will be having just chatting up a storm, as that's what social workers do best in these situations, chatter up a storm.
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  27. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by expat View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    ... And happy not to be settled in Europe and facing all kinds of irrational hatred.
    What sanctimonious bullsh1t, you need look no further than this thread to see how pathetic that statement is.
    Bingo.
    KC does tend to get sanctimonious as he does not want his image of the Father/Mother Teresa of the forum to look anything but pristine. I wonder how many immigrants he/she is hosting in his/her home?.
    I have not voiced my opinion of the refugee crisis but I look forward to the forum SJW's replies of what I mean even though I have not voiced an opinion on it. It's always a laugh to hear what the ever so political correct think of the lowly hoi polloi in these kinds of situations. I often wonder if some of these guys work for social agencies and are rubbing their hands in glee over all the double time late meetings they will be having just chatting up a storm, as that's what social workers do best in these situations, chatter up a storm.
    You've forgotten that raised people's hackles when I've mentioned things like eliminating corporate taxes, privatizing our resources, charging water royalties, asking when it's ok to discriminate, not panicing over terrorism caused domestic casualties etc. Even for quoting Warren Buffett, who many see as an evil capitalist genius.

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    Let's see how many countries want to takecsyrian refugees now after France. One of the terrorists yelled " FREE SYRIA!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    Let's see how many countries want to takecsyrian refugees now after France. One of the terrorists yelled " FREE SYRIA!"
    Meaning these are the people Syrian refugees are fleeing. Refugees aren't terrorists, they're the victims.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  30. #130

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    Geez how many times does it have to be said. Not every Muslim is a terrorist, not every Irish Catholic was a member or the IRA ,not every German in the war was a Nazi. The list is endless of peaceful countries and people who for one reason or other end up with r soles who just want to cause mayhem to their own people and others. Don't people realize that the majority of the inhabitants of these countries just want to live in peace like the rest of us. They abhor these terrorists as much as anyone else. You cannot go painting everyone with the same brush just because some wankers want to cause bloodshed in the name of whatever bull shipping theory they hold.
    Last edited by Gemini; 13-11-2015 at 09:30 PM.
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  31. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Geez how many times does it have to be said. Not every Muslim is a terrorist, not every Irish Catholic was a member or the IRA ,not every German in the war was a Nazi. The list is endless of peaceful countries and people who for one reason or other end up with r soles who just want to cause mayhem to their own people and others. Don't people realize that the majority of the inhabitants of these countries just want to live in peace like the rest of us. They abhor these terrorists as much as anyone else. You cannot go painting everyone with the same brush just because some wankers want to cause bloodshed in the name of whatever bull shipping theory they hold.
    Well put.

    Also, all the world's megalomaniacs want world domination and won't hesitate to use anyone they can and kill anyone they want to kill. Let any one them gain too much power and they won't be able to be stopped without incredible carnage.

    Then there's all the normal people that just have to do the job of protecting their countries and they can escalate bad situations into far worse situations as the pressure to "do something, do anything" overrides intelligent rational action.

    Mix these various interests together and you've got situations like you see in the Middle East where hatred and wars persist for ever.
    Last edited by KC; 13-11-2015 at 09:46 PM.

  32. #132
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    Living in Europe the open disdain for refugees here is a bit shocking.

    Hopefully Canada can be more more gracious hosts.

    The west turns their countries to **** then get mad when they want to move away from their ******** countries. Crazy.
    be offended! figure out why later...

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    Quote Originally Posted by richardW View Post
    Living in Europe the open disdain for refugees here is a bit shocking.

    Hopefully Canada can be more more gracious hosts.
    Another rather sanctimonious generalization, particularly considering yesterdays events.

    Still, we'll find out just how "gracious" Canada can be when it gets around to actually taking in some of these refugees, rather than just talking about it.
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    Again, I do not understand why those refugees do not stay and fight for their country. Why run away and expect other countries to dole out big bucks because YOU can't stand up for yourself?

    It's your country, stay there and figure it out. Don't look to others to solve your problems, stand up on your own 2 feet DAMNIT!
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    A thread like this is going to fatten up my Ignore list as I add C2E's xenophobes to it.
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  36. #136

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    Again, I do not understand why those refugees do not stay and fight for their country. Why run away and expect other countries to dole out big bucks because YOU can't stand up for yourself?

    It's your country, stay there and figure it out. Don't look to others to solve your problems, stand up on your own 2 feet DAMNIT!
    How did you end up in Edmonton?

  37. #137
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    I was born here.
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  38. #138

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    I was born here.
    So it's likely someone in your family decided not to fight for economic survival where they were, and decided to move here either for survival, a better life, better opportunity, or whatever.

    A friend's grandfather or great grandfather left Europe for Canada and came here in the 1800s because he knew the problems in his home country would eventually resurface and he wanted to protect his family. In the 1980s, a hundred years later, all hell broke out and my friend was saying how smart it was to come to Canada.

  39. #139
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    NO. I was born here, so were my parents. There was problems from their home country.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    Again, I do not understand why those refugees do not stay and fight for their country. Why run away and expect other countries to dole out big bucks because YOU can't stand up for yourself?

    It's your country, stay there and figure it out. Don't look to others to solve your problems, stand up on your own 2 feet DAMNIT!

    I think they should fight for their country, if they are able. I see a refugee from Syria( at least one) went through Greece to get to Paris. Another one was a boy of 15, he was one of the suicide bombers. Please Trudeau, don't rush this process, that's all I ask

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    Why bring in refugees until we are sure they are not terrorists?
    I don't trust any of them, you bring them over and they are the first ones to start trouble.

    Stay in your own country and straighten things out, stop #%**+ up your country immigrants! It's simple!

    Or we need a western dictatorship in there to root out all terror elements for good.
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  42. #142

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    I agree refugees should be vetted but then there is always a chance that some of them are going to lie in their interviews. A lot will say they fled their country with out paperwork or complete paperwork. They could take on someone else's identity (specially single people). Does that mean you have to stop the genuine refugees?. There are always going to be risks in what the government do, can't guarantee anything.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  43. #143

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    Again, I do not understand why those refugees do not stay and fight for their country. Why run away and expect other countries to dole out big bucks because YOU can't stand up for yourself?

    It's your country, stay there and figure it out. Don't look to others to solve your problems, stand up on your own 2 feet DAMNIT!
    The Syrian Army is just about broke, financially and operationally. The average person on the street has no access to guns etc. to defend themselves. They are not trained in military combat. They are fighting a foe that is out smarting them at every turn. Their government is inept to protect them. If the people stay they will either be killed or end up living under unbearable circumstances.
    http://www.businessinsider.com/the-s...ollapse-2015-4
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    So why are they so unprepared to defend themselves?

    Why are the terrorists so well versed in this area?

    They need to start training themselves and arming themselves to fight back. They Should have done that when they had the chance, but they decided to do nothing, now they suffer the consequences.
    make America GREAT TRUMP!

  45. #145

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    A number of reasons, inept or corrupt governments, lack of resources, lack of will, fear for family., fear of the enemy.
    Terrorists don't play by the rules, they kill there own just to get ahead. They win by sheer terror and barbarism. Kidnap your wife and daughter in the middle of the night, accuse your son of being gay and throw him off a tall building, over run your business and steal your assets. Foist their archaic rules on the population. Wreck your town/city to rubble, no home, hospitals, banks, food stores. There are a whole slew of reasons not to want to stay, in fact there is nothing left to stay for.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  46. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    So why are they so unprepared to defend themselves?

    Why are the terrorists so well versed in this area?

    They need to start training themselves and arming themselves to fight back. They Should have done that when they had the chance, but they decided to do nothing, now they suffer the consequences.
    Uh huh. An extremely well trained and equipped coalition of western forces with a practically limitless budget have been unable to make any inroads against ISIS, but the locals whose neighbourhoods have been bombed to rubble and spend their days trying to satisfy the most basic needs of food and shelter should arm themselves, train themselves, and take ISIS on themselves? Sounds like suicide to me. No, I'd be doing what most Syrians are: getting the hell out and making for greener pastures.
    Support the mob or mysteriously disappear...

  47. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by bulliver View Post
    Uh huh. An extremely well trained and equipped coalition of western forces with a practically limitless budget have been unable to make any inroads against ISIS
    Not really, ISIS hasn't fought a professional western army, just limited air power. The Kurds, backed by the US (and also Canadian special forces), have actually pushed them back. If the French go in with professional trained troops on the ground, ISIS will collapse. The problem is what to replace ISIS with, removing their military will be easy enough, but then, will be left in control of land that various tribes, religions and ethnicities have claims over. Many iSIS members will just disband into that hotch potch, to return with more terror. And the humanitarian issues, with thousands of enslaved women and girls needing help, is going to be devestating, but better now, than when more poor women and children get caught up in it.
    Last edited by moahunter; 14-11-2015 at 04:12 PM.

  48. #148
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    Ok, if this country is such a #%^*+ up country, just nuke it. And while you are at it, Nuke some of those other loser countries. (Israel might beat us to it!)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    Ok, if this country is such a #%^*+ up country, just nuke it. And while you are at it, Nuke some of those other loser countries. (Israel might beat us to it!)
    well isn't that quite the conundrum you've presented us with...

    is that just an incredibly stupid post from an incredibly ignorant insensitive poster or is it just an incredibly antagonistic post from an incredibly big but equally insensitive troll?
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    A couple weeks ago Fang took a big dump on a well discussed, long term thread and got it locked. Looks like he's trying to do the same here in this one.

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    No I just don't have a bleeding heart for terrorists. Nuke em till they glow, shoot em in the dark.
    make America GREAT TRUMP!

  52. #152

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    Yes, let's ignore the fact that US and its lackeys are the primary cause for the growth of ISIS with the attack on Iraq, let's blame the people there and nuke them.

    I've said this before, God forbid, if the US gov't ever collapses, what ISIS is doing will pale in comparison to what the fascists, KKK, white supremacists, and your average gun toting American will do to each other.

  53. #153

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    Quote Originally Posted by faraz View Post
    Yes, let's ignore the fact that US and its lackeys are the primary cause for the growth of ISIS with the attack on Iraq, let's blame the people there and nuke them.

    I've said this before, God forbid, if the US gov't ever collapses, what ISIS is doing will pale in comparison to what the fascists, KKK, white supremacists, and your average gun toting American will do to each other.
    Not that long ago Americans slaughtered about 600,000 of each other when the population was about the size of that today's Canada.

    The Middle East though has been like Europe, slaughtering each other for eons. The US involvement may have been a catalyst but if it wasn't them it would have been something else. The whole structure and borders of the countries were ill conceived but I doubt it would have mattered much. It seems the brutal dictators were the only ones to keep the peace. Well excepting all the wars. Iran-Iraq...

    As for nuking countries, the US seriously considered nuking the Soviet Union on a first strike basis. I'm sure the Soviets would have had plans to do the same. So it's probably just a matter of time until some country tires of such battles and releases nukes or something worse, just to flex its muscles.
    Last edited by KC; 14-11-2015 at 08:27 PM.

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    If any of you are curious to hear the pulse of the country, take 5 minutes to read the reader comments on this CBC piece on the Paris attacks


    http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/paris-a...isis-1.3319198



    -"We need to close our borders now and detain anyone with a link to Islamic extremists."



    -"Stephen Harper was correct being cautious with the Syria refugee situation. Canada will regret being bamboozled with media hype for Justin resulting in such a foolish choice last October."




    -"German reporter Jurgen Todenfofer spent 10 days embedded with ISIS in 2014. He said:

    a) the West 'has no concept' how dangerous the group is

    b) ISIS had plans for mass genocide and 'religious cleansing'

    c) the group is much smarter and more dangerous than our leaders believe

    d) 'they are the strongest group I ever met'

    e) 'they are extremely brutal' - his reference there was to their core tenet of 'religious cleansing'. If five hundred million must die to arrive at that goal then so be it

    f) 'this is the largest religious cleansing strategy that has ever been planned in human history'

    Todenhofer gave interviews to the leading members of the international press. His interviews are readily available. And one year on? Here we are. And our PM wants to withdraw from the battlefield"
    Imagine: a world free of hypothetical situations!

  55. #155

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    I wouldn't equate CBC comments section or any comments section as the pulse of the country. Anonymous comment sections are usually filled with trolls and those whose opinions can only be mentioned while anonymous.

  56. #156
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    In all honesty, I'm taking a second guess now. I wanna do the humanitarian thing but...

  57. #157

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    ^when people saw the dead child on the beach, there was an emotional outpouring. Trudeau quickly promised 25,000 refugees by year end, without considering practicalities or security issues. At the time, back in September, Harper said no, each refugee has to be security cleared first, and was accused of imposing red tape. He seemed cold, and it hurt him in the election but I think most people can now see that Harper was right on this issue. I'm in favour of Canada taking more immigrants, including refugees, but do the security checks.

    Not confirmed yet, but it looks like one or more of the gunman may have been Syrian refugees:

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle27265109/

    If Trudeau breaks his election pledge and delays a little for the refugees to screen them properly, I think in four years time, that will be long forgotten and forgiven. But if he doesn't do proper security checks, and this happens to us, it will be inexcusable.
    Last edited by moahunter; 15-11-2015 at 07:18 AM.

  58. #158

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^when people saw the dead child on the beach, there was an emotional outpouring. Trudeau quickly promised 25,000 refugees by year end, without considering practicalities or security issues. At the time, back in September, Harper said no, each refugee has to be security cleared first, and was accused of imposing red tape. He seemed cold, and it hurt him in the election but I think most people can now see that Harper was right on this issue. I'm in favour of Canada taking more immigrants, including refugees, but do the security checks.

    Not confirmed yet, but it looks like one or more of the gunman may have been Syrian refugees:

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle27265109/

    If Trudeau breaks his election pledge and delays a little for the refugees to screen them properly, I think in four years time, that will be long forgotten and forgiven. But if he doesn't do proper security checks, and this happens to us, it will be inexcusable.
    Harper wasn't right on this issue. No one knows what right is. He took control away from the hired professionals and moved it into the PMO's office. I think we could take in a lot more refugees than just 25,000. We could create refugee camps to buy time to screen the immigrants. That's how it's done in many other countries. In some countries those camps somewhat confine people for decades.

    Nonetheless, the point of this thread was to discuss the rational side of refugee intake and not the emotional knee jerk reactionary side of the issue that things like the Paris attack raise. Note how little reaction there was to twice as many Russians getting taken out of the sky just a couple weeks ago. Pretty astounding isn't it. Thus clearly the Paris style attack was a very successful terrorist action because of its power to influence people's attitudes through attacking their consciousness via some level deep in the primitive areas of their brains. (Fear centre)

    What irks me is the continuous priority that middle eastern issues seize over all the other issues facing the world where equally deserving people get ignored. The child on the beach was bad but we've seen kids suffer all around the world and done little. Other countries had to step up and take in tens of thousands of refugees and we haven't jumped up to do anything but provide some humanitarian aid. Maybe that should change.
    Last edited by KC; 15-11-2015 at 08:03 AM.

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    I hope we still take the refugees. If we capitulate to fear, we let the terrorists win. They are trying to install fear and hatred in us, and divide the world. We need to be better than them. Let the refugees in, screen them one by one, and show that Canada will not give up its values out of fear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    No I just don't have a bleeding heart for terrorists. Nuke em till they glow, shoot em in the dark.

    You're the first target then. You are an open supporter of a designated terrorist group.


    I've said this before, but here it is again: I'm more afraid of extremist terrorist supporters in our midst like you than I am of refugees fleeing evil to make a better life.

  61. #161

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    No I just don't have a bleeding heart for terrorists. Nuke em till they glow, shoot em in the dark.

    You're the first target then. You are an open supporter of a designated terrorist group.


    I've said this before, but here it is again: I'm more afraid of extremist terrorist supporters in our midst like you than I am of refugees fleeing evil to make a better life.
    I think the west is likely doing a not bad job of at dropping somewhat targeted bombs on them already. Then of course there's their own government doing a very bad job of more indiscriminately dropping barrel bombs on them as well. And then there's ISIS and other groups all doing their part to destroy any peaceful societies.

    So, anyone that just wanted to work and provide for their family (the great majority of people) must just despise the many relative minorities that are destroying life for everyone because these minorities feel that the average hard working guy or gal has to be brought under control of some religious or other ideology.

  62. #162

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    NO. I was born here, so were my parents. There was problems from their home country.
    And so people moved for a better life. Hence we have refugees which aren't much different than any other immigrant, though maybe less opportunitistcally minded.

  63. #163

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post

    Not confirmed yet, but it looks like one or more of the gunman may have been Syrian refugees:
    You don't find it odd that someone goes on a suicide mission but ensures to keep their passport on them? It's very much possible this is deliberate planning by ISIS to turn public opinion against Syrian refugees. If they can kill people so brazenly, planting a fake passport is simple.

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    The main goal of this operation is precisely to give the refugees no place to go and/or punish them for leaving. It saddens me that so many in the West want to cooperate with DAESH.

  65. #165

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    Quote Originally Posted by faraz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post

    Not confirmed yet, but it looks like one or more of the gunman may have been Syrian refugees:
    You don't find it odd that someone goes on a suicide mission but ensures to keep their passport on them? It's very much possible this is deliberate planning by ISIS to turn public opinion against Syrian refugees. If they can kill people so brazenly, planting a fake passport is simple.
    Not odd to me. Right up to the end, they'd keep their passport just as they'd keep their cellphone. Should things go wrong, they have needed to be able to run. I can't see turning public opinion against refugees as being part of such a plan. I think it's quite natural that they'd be opportunistic and try to send terrorists with crowds of refugees. Any fear of refugees as terrorists is likely sound but not a reason to turn against or turn away refugees.

  66. #166

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by faraz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post

    Not confirmed yet, but it looks like one or more of the gunman may have been Syrian refugees:
    You don't find it odd that someone goes on a suicide mission but ensures to keep their passport on them? It's very much possible this is deliberate planning by ISIS to turn public opinion against Syrian refugees. If they can kill people so brazenly, planting a fake passport is simple.
    Not odd to me. Right up to the end, they'd keep their passport just as they'd keep their cellphone. Should things go wrong, they have needed to be able to run. I can't see turning public opinion against refugees as being part of such a plan. I think it's quite natural that they'd be opportunistic and try to send terrorists with crowds of refugees. Any fear of refugees as terrorists is likely sound but not a reason to turn against or turn away refugees.
    its been confirmed that one of the suicide bombers posed as a refugee to gain access into Europe. Greece has fingerprints of the person after registering as a refugee on one of their islands

  67. #167
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    Has no one actually paid attention to ISIS's purported game plan? They want all Muslims to be under their control in the Levant, where they then believe there will be a grand holy war that will symbol the end of days. They are a death cult, and their mission is to have a massive war between all Muslims and everyone else in the middle east.

    Hence why they are trying to stem the tide of refugees fleeing them. They want all the refugees back under their control in preparation for the holy war and the end of days.

    This reminds me of Osama. What did Osama say? He specifically advocated for drawing the USA into a prolonged insurgency that would drain their national budget and morale.

    If we turn against the refugees, we are playing right into the hands of the terrorists. We are letting them win, and we are cowards for it.

  68. #168

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    Quote Originally Posted by trick91 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by faraz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post

    Not confirmed yet, but it looks like one or more of the gunman may have been Syrian refugees:
    You don't find it odd that someone goes on a suicide mission but ensures to keep their passport on them? It's very much possible this is deliberate planning by ISIS to turn public opinion against Syrian refugees. If they can kill people so brazenly, planting a fake passport is simple.
    Not odd to me. Right up to the end, they'd keep their passport just as they'd keep their cellphone. Should things go wrong, they have needed to be able to run. I can't see turning public opinion against refugees as being part of such a plan. I think it's quite natural that they'd be opportunistic and try to send terrorists with crowds of refugees. Any fear of refugees as terrorists is likely sound but not a reason to turn against or turn away refugees.
    its been confirmed that one of the suicide bombers posed as a refugee to gain access into Europe. Greece has fingerprints of the person after registering as a refugee on one of their islands
    Again not surprising. The talk of ISIS sending terrorists posing as refugees was in the news months ago wasn't it?

    Post WWII many war criminals spread out around the world and got into many countries. I imagine that during the great wars there were all kinds of spies in our midst.
    Last edited by KC; 16-11-2015 at 08:58 AM.

  69. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by trick91 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by faraz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post

    Not confirmed yet, but it looks like one or more of the gunman may have been Syrian refugees:
    You don't find it odd that someone goes on a suicide mission but ensures to keep their passport on them? It's very much possible this is deliberate planning by ISIS to turn public opinion against Syrian refugees. If they can kill people so brazenly, planting a fake passport is simple.
    Not odd to me. Right up to the end, they'd keep their passport just as they'd keep their cellphone. Should things go wrong, they have needed to be able to run. I can't see turning public opinion against refugees as being part of such a plan. I think it's quite natural that they'd be opportunistic and try to send terrorists with crowds of refugees. Any fear of refugees as terrorists is likely sound but not a reason to turn against or turn away refugees.
    its been confirmed that one of the suicide bombers posed as a refugee to gain access into Europe. Greece has fingerprints of the person after registering as a refugee on one of their islands
    Again not surprising. The talk of ISIS sending terrorists posing as refugees was in the news months ago wasn't it?

    Post WWII many war criminals spread out around the world and got into many countries. I imagine that during the great wars there were all kinds of spies in our midst.
    spying and carrying out overt terrorist acts aimed at civilians aren't exactly synonymous activities despite the geneva convention's treating them similarly...
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  70. #170

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by trick91 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by faraz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post

    Not confirmed yet, but it looks like one or more of the gunman may have been Syrian refugees:
    You don't find it odd that someone goes on a suicide mission but ensures to keep their passport on them? It's very much possible this is deliberate planning by ISIS to turn public opinion against Syrian refugees. If they can kill people so brazenly, planting a fake passport is simple.
    Not odd to me. Right up to the end, they'd keep their passport just as they'd keep their cellphone. Should things go wrong, they have needed to be able to run. I can't see turning public opinion against refugees as being part of such a plan. I think it's quite natural that they'd be opportunistic and try to send terrorists with crowds of refugees. Any fear of refugees as terrorists is likely sound but not a reason to turn against or turn away refugees.
    its been confirmed that one of the suicide bombers posed as a refugee to gain access into Europe. Greece has fingerprints of the person after registering as a refugee on one of their islands
    Again not surprising. The talk of ISIS sending terrorists posing as refugees was in the news months ago wasn't it?

    Post WWII many war criminals spread out around the world and got into many countries. I imagine that during the great wars there were all kinds of spies in our midst.
    spying and carrying out overt terrorist acts aimed at civilians aren't exactly synonymous activities despite the geneva convention's treating them similarly...
    Unlike a dictatorship, in a democracy the people choose the government and permit its actions. We're at war with ISIS and on those grounds alone, we're targets because we in theory, control the government.

    Civilians lack a means of defence, but so do those under the bombs that the jets are dropping. They are so far outgunned, they might as well just have nothing.

    In WWII cities were burned to the ground and hundreds of thousands of civilians killed. That's war.

  71. #171

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    If we turn against the refugees, we are playing right into the hands of the terrorists. We are letting them win, and we are cowards for it.
    I don't think most people are turning against the refugess (those who are opposed to them, probably always were and always will be). What people are saying is Harper was right re proper screening:

    "To help, we must ensure we screen every potential refugee carefully. We have been clear that we are willing to take more people, but we must be sure we are helping the most vulnerable.

    "We cannot open the floodgates and airlift tens of thousands of refugees out of a terrorist war zone without proper process. That is too great a risk for Canada," Harper said on Tuesday during a question-and-answer session on Facebook.
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/step...ning-1.3219359

    If you don't do that, if you bring them here first, and then find there are problems, its going to be a costly nightmare for any questionable refugees, with hundreds of lawyers involved, as every refugee has the same rights as any Canadian citizen to legal aid once they hit our shores. Its much, much better, to screen them outside Canada. The only reason to not do that, is a political / optics pledge, Trudeau can do better than that.

    There is also more than a little political correctness stirred in: We must drop our guard in order to show beyond a doubt that we are not racist, imperialist or doubtful about multiculturalism.

    None of that, though, makes the commitment to rush 25,000 Syrians to Canada any less insane, especially in the face of proof from France of the danger of doing so.

    Bring 25,000 refugees to Canada, but slow down. Take the time to send Canadian immigration officials to refugee camps in Europe and the Middle East to weed out the extremists there, not here.

    Do the vetting outside the country if for no other reason than that the Supreme Court has said any refugee claimant on Canadian soil has the same rights as a Canadian citizen. Getting rid of extremists once they arrive here is very difficult.

    Trudeau and the Liberals may not think we are at war with ISIS, but ISIS certainly believes they are at war with us.
    http://www.torontosun.com/2015/11/15...refugee-pledge
    Last edited by moahunter; 16-11-2015 at 09:37 AM.

  72. #172

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    If we turn against the refugees, we are playing right into the hands of the terrorists. We are letting them win, and we are cowards for it.
    I don't think most people are turning against the refugess (those who are opposed to them, probably always were and always will be). What people are saying is Harper was right re proper screening:

    "To help, we must ensure we screen every potential refugee carefully. We have been clear that we are willing to take more people, but we must be sure we are helping the most vulnerable.

    "We cannot open the floodgates and airlift tens of thousands of refugees out of a terrorist war zone without proper process. That is too great a risk for Canada," Harper said on Tuesday during a question-and-answer session on Facebook.
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/step...ning-1.3219359

    If you don't do that, if you bring them here first, and then find there are problems, its going to be a costly nightmare for any quesionable refugees, with hundreds of lawyers involved, as every refugee has the same rights as any Canadian citizen to legal aid once they hit our shores. Its much, much better, to screen them outside Canada. The only reason to not do that, is a political / optics pledge, Trudeau can do better than that.

    There is also more than a little political correctness stirred in: We must drop our guard in order to show beyond a doubt that we are not racist, imperialist or doubtful about multiculturalism.

    None of that, though, makes the commitment to rush 25,000 Syrians to Canada any less insane, especially in the face of proof from France of the danger of doing so.

    Bring 25,000 refugees to Canada, but slow down. Take the time to send Canadian immigration officials to refugee camps in Europe and the Middle East to weed out the extremists there, not here.

    Do the vetting outside the country if for no other reason than that the Supreme Court has said any refugee claimant on Canadian soil has the same rights as a Canadian citizen. Getting rid of extremists once they arrive here is very difficult.

    Trudeau and the Liberals may not think we are at war with ISIS, but ISIS certainly believes they are at war with us.
    http://www.torontosun.com/2015/11/15...refugee-pledge
    Good points. However, we regularly do things where the risks of any failure are quite costly. If you're trapped in a burning house do you want the firefighters to ensure the fire is out before they take any risk in saving you?

    Maybe we should just take in orphans. We could then maybe say we'll take 50-100,000.
    Last edited by KC; 16-11-2015 at 09:41 AM.

  73. #173

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    ^but there is no burning house, the Refugee camps are there, and there are far more than 25,000 in them. Go there, and select refugees that have solid backgrounds that we are highly confident are not ISIS sleeper cells or similar. Its just politics to rush it for no reason - maybe it takes 6 months, but is anyone going to care in four years time when assessing Trudeau? They will care if we rush and end up with an endless legal mess.

  74. #174

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^but there is no burning house, the Refugee camps are there, and there are far more than 25,000 in them. Go there, and select refugees that have solid backgrounds that we are highly confident are not ISIS sleeper cells or similar. Its just politics to rush it for no reason - maybe it takes 6 months, but is anyone going to care in four years time when assessing Trudeau? They will care if we rush and end up with an endless legal mess.
    There is a burning house because borders are closing in europe.

    However, this thread was to be a discussion more like what you are proposing. Who, what, when, where, why and how.

    It's unavoidable that we have to do something to help the Syrians however, now is the time to learn how to set up a system that is less knee-jerk and emotional compassion/fear driven.

    You'll see in all the discussions people haven't even gotten past the acceptance point to discussing how we are going to handle the refugees. Now there's a petition. We elected a government with this promise as part of its platform and it has stated that it is going to keep this promise. So Canadians should now decide how we are going to achieve it.

    By analogy, if you had two bosses vying for a senior position and not the one you wanted, got it, your job would be at most to point out any weaknesses to his/her decisions, but once she/he said, yes I know but we're going ahead with my plan, then your job is to do all you can to make that course of action successful - or quit. Same thing in a democracy. The new team captain has been picked, we critique to improve but never undermine or backstab to sink the whole team.

  75. #175
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    The attacks were planned in Syria, and carried out by cells. If you are vetting this many refugees, less than the US is taking, you better be bloody sure they are not planning to cause harm here. Trudeau and co are rushing all this.

  76. #176

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    ^there are some reports the US is also concerned Canada won't be doing a proper vet, given the border we share with the US. This doesn't make any sense at all, its just a political stunt. Trudeau gets a bigger photo op with 25,000 in one and a half months, rather than doing a careful assessment overseas and bringing in gradually over 6 months.
    Last edited by moahunter; 16-11-2015 at 11:42 AM.

  77. #177

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    It's not just the vetting processing. The environment is an important factor in determining a person's action.

    Integration into society. How they are treated once they arrived will also play a factor. If they are treated like 3rd class citizens, if people treat them will hatred and fear. One can only assume that probability that they will do something radical increases. While the reverse is true as well.

  78. #178

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    Quote Originally Posted by hello lady View Post
    The attacks were planned in Syria, and carried out by cells. If you are vetting this many refugees, less than the US is taking, you better be bloody sure they are not planning to cause harm here. Trudeau and co are rushing all this.
    Some random thoughts:

    We can never be "bloody sure", so we should expect some degree of failure. We don't guarantee absolute safety in any other activity in society. We take reasonable steps and then move ahead. (We have 300-400 vehicle fatalities in Alberta alone every year. Everyday, we limit our efforts to save lives to what we deem reasonable and within our control in order to accomplish our objectives.)

    Moreover these absolutist expectations about safety and security at home, that we can't survive a terrorist attack here, are exactly what the terrorists want. If you go to war you should play to win - and often winning can be a compromise to make peace. Unfortunately, it seems though a lot of Canadians don't understand that these ideological enemies will grow and grow and eventually move against us one way or another and may never accept any kind of compromise. So we may face an absolutist need to win.

    As for the French who are quite curiously saying that 'This is war' seem disillusioned as well. They were and are at war and so are we. We will continue to train fighters so we will continue to be a priority target whether or not we have jets there or take in refugees.

    The Paris attack has been extremely successful compared to the Russian airliner attack which killed more people. So we can expect far more effort by terrorists to replicate these street kills vs. airliner kills.

  79. #179

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meo View Post
    It's not just the vetting processing. The environment is an important factor in determining a person's action.

    Integration into society. How they are treated once they arrived will also play a factor. If they are treated like 3rd class citizens, if people treat them will hatred and fear. One can only assume that probability that they will do something radical increases. While the reverse is true as well.
    Apparently in France there was little integration. Which side rejected the other I don't know. Tribalism at play.

  80. #180

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    Should our long term policy position on refugees exclude any from countries we have military engagement with?

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    all this talk about what is effectively nothing more than grand standing - talk that seems designed solely to be able to feel good rather than to actually implement a solution.

    there are 4,000,000 syrian refugees and counting from a country with a starting population of 22.5 million - less than 2/3 of canada's population.

    taking 25,000 would mean there are 3,975,000 syrian refugees and counting.

    i am all for symbolic as well as real gestures to support refugees and - more importantly - to eliminate the creation of refugees and enabling many of those refugees to return to their homeland if not their homes.

    in the interim however, whether canada accepts 10,000 or 15,000 or 25,000 refugees in the next 1 1/2 months or not is grandstanding at any number. the monies required at these levels are all probably much better given to the red cross or the red crescent or the un high commissioner for refugees. this is not what i'm advocating but the partisanship and selfservingness/selfrightiousness of most of this discussion totally avoids the very reasons the discussion is taking place in the first place.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  82. #182

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    all this talk about what is effectively nothing more than grand standing - talk that seems designed solely to be able to feel good rather than to actually implement a solution.

    there are 4,000,000 syrian refugees and counting from a country with a starting population of 22.5 million - less than 2/3 of canada's population.

    taking 25,000 would mean there are 3,975,000 syrian refugees and counting.

    i am all for symbolic as well as real gestures to support refugees and - more importantly - to eliminate the creation of refugees and enabling many of those refugees to return to their homeland if not their homes.

    in the interim however, whether canada accepts 10,000 or 15,000 or 25,000 refugees in the next 1 1/2 months or not is grandstanding at any number. the monies required at these levels are all probably much better given to the red cross or the red crescent or the un high commissioner for refugees. this is not what i'm advocating but the partisanship and selfservingness/selfrightiousness of most of this discussion totally avoids the very reasons the discussion is taking place in the first place.
    Yes, it's very much like Canada's impact on global warming. Whatever we do is negligible in the scheme of things. Grandstanding at home, if you will, for anything we do. Nonetheless the idea to take in some nominal number of refugees became a big election consideration and the decision has been made.

  83. #183

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    As I suspected, there is no confirmation that the Syrian passport found is authentic or even belongs to the person who attacked. From The Independent:

    “The single most intriguing fact is that the passport was there at all,” one French official source said. “It was not actually on the terrorist’s body, or what remained of it. It was lying nearby, as if meant to be found.” The holder of the passport was named as Ahmed Almuhamed, aged 25. A man of this name entered the European Union on a Syrian passport with 69 other refugees after their boat sank off the Greek island of Leros on 3 October.

    French officials say that they have no proof that the Stade de France suicide bomber – one of three who detonated crude explosive belts at the stadium – was Mr Almuhamed. Intelligence sources in the US told CBS news that there are doubts whether the passport is authentic. The number of the document is incorrect and name does not match the picture, it was claimed.

    Paris police were reported to have believed that the passport, and another found at the scene, were fakes made in Turkey. There is known to be a flourishing trade in fake Syrian passports in both Turkey and Europe. But that does not necessarily mean that the man who entered Greece as a refugee was not also the man who blew himself up.

    French investigators fear that the apparent “planting” of the passport is part of a sophisticated propaganda war being waged by Isis. “There are three possibilities,” one source said. “He is the man whose name is on the passport. He was a false refugee, travelling on a false passport. Or he is someone else and a false passport was deliberately left there to sow confusion."

    In all three cases, Isis appears to have set out to stoke popular anger against Syrian migrants as part of their campaign to foment anti-Muslim feeling. The man travelling as Mr Almuhamed entered Greece with another man called Mohamed Almuhamed, who was presumed to be his brother. Ahmed then turned up, Serbian authorities said, at a Macedonian border crossing four days later.

  84. #184

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    all this talk about what is effectively nothing more than grand standing - talk that seems designed solely to be able to feel good rather than to actually implement a solution.

    there are 4,000,000 syrian refugees and counting from a country with a starting population of 22.5 million - less than 2/3 of canada's population.

    taking 25,000 would mean there are 3,975,000 syrian refugees and counting.

    i am all for symbolic as well as real gestures to support refugees and - more importantly - to eliminate the creation of refugees and enabling many of those refugees to return to their homeland if not their homes.

    in the interim however, whether canada accepts 10,000 or 15,000 or 25,000 refugees in the next 1 1/2 months or not is grandstanding at any number. the monies required at these levels are all probably much better given to the red cross or the red crescent or the un high commissioner for refugees. this is not what i'm advocating but the partisanship and selfservingness/selfrightiousness of most of this discussion totally avoids the very reasons the discussion is taking place in the first place.
    By this logic, we also shouldn't bother participating militarily at all. Does anything think the mission is lost if Canada doesn't participate? Compared to the greatest military in the world, we're a token force. Practically symbolic more than anything. In operational terms, the US doesn't really care if we're there or not.

  85. #185

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    Quote Originally Posted by faraz View Post
    As I suspected, there is no confirmation that the Syrian passport found is authentic or even belongs to the person who attacked. From The Independent:

    “The single most intriguing fact is that the passport was there at all,” one French official source said. “It was not actually on the terrorist’s body, or what remained of it. It was lying nearby, as if meant to be found.” The holder of the passport was named as Ahmed Almuhamed, aged 25. A man of this name entered the European Union on a Syrian passport with 69 other refugees after their boat sank off the Greek island of Leros on 3 October.

    French officials say that they have no proof that the Stade de France suicide bomber – one of three who detonated crude explosive belts at the stadium – was Mr Almuhamed. Intelligence sources in the US told CBS news that there are doubts whether the passport is authentic. The number of the document is incorrect and name does not match the picture, it was claimed.

    Paris police were reported to have believed that the passport, and another found at the scene, were fakes made in Turkey. There is known to be a flourishing trade in fake Syrian passports in both Turkey and Europe. But that does not necessarily mean that the man who entered Greece as a refugee was not also the man who blew himself up.

    French investigators fear that the apparent “planting” of the passport is part of a sophisticated propaganda war being waged by Isis. “There are three possibilities,” one source said. “He is the man whose name is on the passport. He was a false refugee, travelling on a false passport. Or he is someone else and a false passport was deliberately left there to sow confusion."

    In all three cases, Isis appears to have set out to stoke popular anger against Syrian migrants as part of their campaign to foment anti-Muslim feeling. The man travelling as Mr Almuhamed entered Greece with another man called Mohamed Almuhamed, who was presumed to be his brother. Ahmed then turned up, Serbian authorities said, at a Macedonian border crossing four days later.
    Interesting. Beyond the obvious intelligence reasons though, I really don't see how it matters. Someone got in that shouldn't have and that likely happens all the time.

    However, if it was "part of a sophisticated propaganda war", I guess it does matter. Still I don't see how the attack won't "stoke popular anger against Syrian migrants" no matter who from ISIS involved. i.e. Initially the 911 attack pointed towards Canada and belief still persists in the US.

  86. #186

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    So a few bad apples came with hundreds of thousands of real refugees. Big deal. We homegrow just as many, if not more, terrorists. They would probably make it to their targets with or without having to blend in with refugees.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  87. #187

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    Quote Originally Posted by River Valley Green View Post
    By this logic, we also shouldn't bother participating militarily at all. Does anything think the mission is lost if Canada doesn't participate? Compared to the greatest military in the world, we're a token force. Practically symbolic more than anything. In operational terms, the US doesn't really care if we're there or not.
    Canada punches above its weight though for the size of military. The CF18's really are world class within non-contested airspace (albeit old, they have been upgraded constantly), and there have been reports our special forces working with the Kurds have done very well. Our Navy performs a very useful role in NATO, albeit a cold war focussed one (assigned anti-submarine warfare). Optically, Canada is important as well, we are part of NATO, and have responsibilities to maintain.
    Last edited by moahunter; 16-11-2015 at 02:25 PM.

  88. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by River Valley Green View Post
    By this logic, we also shouldn't bother participating militarily at all. Does anything think the mission is lost if Canada doesn't participate? Compared to the greatest military in the world, we're a token force. Practically symbolic more than anything. In operational terms, the US doesn't really care if we're there or not.
    Canada punches above its weight though for the size of military. The CF18's really are world class within non-contested airspace (albeit old, they have been upgraded constantly), and there have been reports our special forces working with the Kurds have done very well. Our Navy performs a very useful role in NATO, albeit a cold war focused one (assigned anti-submarine warfare). Optically, Canada is important as well, we are part of NATO, and have responsibilities to maintain.
    Try and tell that to junior!

  89. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by River Valley Green View Post
    By this logic, we also shouldn't bother participating militarily at all. Does anything think the mission is lost if Canada doesn't participate? Compared to the greatest military in the world, we're a token force. Practically symbolic more than anything. In operational terms, the US doesn't really care if we're there or not.
    Canada punches above its weight though for the size of military. The CF18's really are world class within non-contested airspace (albeit old, they have been upgraded constantly), and there have been reports our special forces working with the Kurds have done very well. Our Navy performs a very useful role in NATO, albeit a cold war focussed one (assigned anti-submarine warfare). Optically, Canada is important as well, we are part of NATO, and have responsibilities to maintain.


    http://www.rickety.us/wp-content/upl...untry_2010.png

    We're a drop in the bucket. The only use we provide is deflecting optics so it doesn't seem like "Team America: World Police" in the newspapers.

    Canada is better off providing humanitarian support, training, and peacekeeping. Our forces are among the best trained and most dedicated out there. They can make a real difference through non-combat missions. Leave the bombing to the big guy down south with enough bombs to split the planet in two stored in his basement.

  90. #190

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    Canada is better off providing humanitarian support, training, and peacekeeping. Our forces are among the best trained and most dedicated out there. They can make a real difference through non-combat missions. Leave the bombing to the big guy down south with enough bombs to split the planet in two stored in his basement.
    How do you define peacekeeping? Like what we did in Afghanistan when the Liberals sent us in with inadequate military supplies?

  91. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by River Valley Green View Post
    By this logic, we also shouldn't bother participating militarily at all. Does anything think the mission is lost if Canada doesn't participate? Compared to the greatest military in the world, we're a token force. Practically symbolic more than anything. In operational terms, the US doesn't really care if we're there or not.
    Canada punches above its weight though for the size of military. The CF18's really are world class within non-contested airspace (albeit old, they have been upgraded constantly), and there have been reports our special forces working with the Kurds have done very well. Our Navy performs a very useful role in NATO, albeit a cold war focussed one (assigned anti-submarine warfare). Optically, Canada is important as well, we are part of NATO, and have responsibilities to maintain.
    Many world leaders spoke of ramping up their efforts in response to Friday’s terror attacks in Paris. But Mr. Trudeau said he was never asked to reconsider his pledge to end the bombing campaign in favour of more on-the-ground training of local forces.
    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle27267692/

    That speaks volumes about how much Canada's input is going to be missed.
    "The only really positive thing one could say about Vancouver is, it’s not the rest of Canada." Oink (britishexpats.com)

  92. #192

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    Premier Rachel Notley believes Alberta could take 2,500 to 3,000 Syrian refugees as part of the prime minister’s plan to bring 25,000 refugees to Canada by the end of the year.
    “We need to do our part. We need to do it safely,” Notley said Monday. She made her statement just hours after Saskatchewan Premier Brad Wall called on the federal government to suspend the plan because a small number of terrorists could take advantage of the settlement process and sneak into the country. Notley didn’t agree.

    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/poli...yrian-refugees
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  93. #193

    Default Canada provinces balk at Trudeau's Syrian refugee goal

    ^I thought boy wonder, unlike evil harper, was going to consult with provinces? Seems Sasketchewan and Quebec aren't happy at this plan / weren't "consulted":

    http://ca.reuters.com/article/domest...0T52G720151116

    The immigration minister in the mostly French-speaking province of Quebec, Kathleen Weil, said she does not believe Trudeau's goal is realistic.

    "I'm going‎ to be frank," Weil told reporters. "‎I don't think it is possible by the end of the year."

    Separately, the premier of the province of Saskatchewan, Brad Wall, urged Trudeau to re-evaluate the goal in light of Friday's attacks in Paris and the chance of admitting operatives trained by Islamic State.

    "If even a small number of individuals who wish to do harm to our country are able to enter Canada as a result of a rushed refugee resettlement process, the results could be devastating," Wall said in a letter to the prime minister.
    Then of course, the cbc, who the Liberals have paid off with $150m per year of our money, to spout their propoganda, runs a Liberal lead counter story:

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manito...wall-1.3321562
    Last edited by moahunter; 16-11-2015 at 03:53 PM.

  94. #194
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    That chart though is perhaps a bit misleading, it looks quite different on a per capita basis. I'm not sure where Canada fits... obviously lower than USA.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ure_per_capita

    I do wish that Canada does as full of a security scan as they can on the refugees, obviously documents are missing, but they do try to build on information from other refugees to recreate missing information.
    Last edited by sundance; 16-11-2015 at 04:13 PM.

  95. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    Canada is better off providing humanitarian support, training, and peacekeeping. Our forces are among the best trained and most dedicated out there. They can make a real difference through non-combat missions. Leave the bombing to the big guy down south with enough bombs to split the planet in two stored in his basement.
    How do you define peacekeeping? Like what we did in Afghanistan when the Liberals sent us in with inadequate military supplies?

    UN Peacekeeping missions. Pretty simple, really.

    There are only three cases when Canada should be directly engaged: UN Peacekeeping Missions, if a NATO member invokes article 5, or if we are attacked by another nation.

    We should not be the world police. That is not our job. We can be more help offering humanitarian support and training.

    Of course, this won't please the man-children out there who need to thump their chest, satisfy their overinflated egos, and pretend we are some global power vitally needed to drop bombs in the middle east...

  96. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    Canada is better off providing humanitarian support, training, and peacekeeping. Our forces are among the best trained and most dedicated out there. They can make a real difference through non-combat missions. Leave the bombing to the big guy down south with enough bombs to split the planet in two stored in his basement.
    How do you define peacekeeping? Like what we did in Afghanistan when the Liberals sent us in with inadequate military supplies?

    UN Peacekeeping missions. Pretty simple, really.

    There are only three cases when Canada should be directly engaged: UN Peacekeeping Missions, if a NATO member invokes article 5, or if we are attacked by another nation.

    We should not be the world police. That is not our job. We can be more help offering humanitarian support and training.

    Of course, this won't please the man-children out there who need to thump their chest, satisfy their overinflated egos, and pretend we are some global power vitally needed to drop bombs in the middle east...
    why don't you tell us what you really thing about anyone who doesn't agree with you?
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  97. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by River Valley Green View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    all this talk about what is effectively nothing more than grand standing - talk that seems designed solely to be able to feel good rather than to actually implement a solution.

    there are 4,000,000 syrian refugees and counting from a country with a starting population of 22.5 million - less than 2/3 of canada's population.

    taking 25,000 would mean there are 3,975,000 syrian refugees and counting.

    i am all for symbolic as well as real gestures to support refugees and - more importantly - to eliminate the creation of refugees and enabling many of those refugees to return to their homeland if not their homes.

    in the interim however, whether canada accepts 10,000 or 15,000 or 25,000 refugees in the next 1 1/2 months or not is grandstanding at any number. the monies required at these levels are all probably much better given to the red cross or the red crescent or the un high commissioner for refugees. this is not what i'm advocating but the partisanship and selfservingness/selfrightiousness of most of this discussion totally avoids the very reasons the discussion is taking place in the first place.
    By this logic, we also shouldn't bother participating militarily at all. Does anything think the mission is lost if Canada doesn't participate? Compared to the greatest military in the world, we're a token force. Practically symbolic more than anything. In operational terms, the US doesn't really care if we're there or not.
    please note that i didn't say we shouldn't accept refugees nor did i say we shouldn't accept 25,000 or more.

    please note that i also didn't say we shouldn't bother participating militarily regardless of whether the mission success depends on our involvement or not.

    what i did say on both refugees and on military involvement is that we should do both based on their being the right thing for us to do as a country at the time we make the decision/commitment, not based on the decision making some of us feel good or allowing some of us to grandstand.

    and for the record, i believe there is value in both of these areas for symbolic participation, just that we should recognize it as symbolic when that's all it is. as to whether the u.s. really cares whether we're there or not i don't really care, what matters is whether we care whether we're there or not.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  98. #198

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    Syrian refugees relieved they won't end up in Saskatchewan

    “I would like to live in a province where the Premier understands that I'm fleeing terrorism and not a part of it,”

    "And let’s be honest, the only thing more humiliating than living in a province with a CFL team incapable of playing football, is living in a province where people actually care about CFL football.”

    http://www.thebeaverton.com/national...n-saskatchewan
    www.decl.org

  99. #199

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenSPACE View Post
    Syrian refugees relieved they won't end up in Saskatchewan

    “I would like to live in a province where the Premier understands that I'm fleeing terrorism and not a part of it,”

    "And let’s be honest, the only thing more humiliating than living in a province with a CFL team incapable of playing football, is living in a province where people actually care about CFL football.”

    http://www.thebeaverton.com/national...n-saskatchewan
    "and even happier not having to endure the frozen, apocalyptic hellscape that is Canada’s prairies.".


  100. #200

    Default

    If we can grow chickens in boxes, why not people... . Old article but interesting.

    Provides population densities... And other interesting trivia.

    Go forth, multiply and fill the provinces - The Globe and Mail

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe...rticle4084896/

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