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Thread: Liberal economic plan - or, gearing up for a federal election

  1. #1
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    Default Liberal economic plan - or, gearing up for a federal election

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/just...lass-1.3060323

    Under the Liberal proposal announced Monday:

    • The 22-per-cent tax rate for anyone with a taxable annual income between $44,701 and $89,401 would be cut to 20.5 per cent.
    • A new tax bracket of 33 per cent would be imposed on those with taxable incomes over $200,000 a year. The current top bracket of 29 per cent would continue to apply to those earning between $138,586 and $200,000.
    • The Conservatives' newly enriched universal child care benefit would be replaced by rolling together two other existing child benefits into a single, more generous, monthly, tax-free "Canada child benefit."
    • The Conservatives' income-splitting tax credit would be scrapped.
    • The near doubling of the tax-free savings account contribution limits announced in the federal budget would be cancelled.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  2. #2

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    Watch many rightists, who likely as not make 89,399 or so, squawk.

    I'm exactly in the Liberal tax bracket.
    Last edited by AShetsen; 04-05-2015 at 08:33 PM.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    Watch many rightists, who likely as not make 89,399 or so, squawk.
    You need to read the plan again, if you make over 90k and less than 200k you will get all the benefits of that tax cut. Over 200k and the benefits start grinding down due to the tax rate on highest marginal income (but that can be dealyed a bit with RRSP's, etc.).

    The biggest suprise for me is the reversal of the TFSA's increase. It doesn't really impact me, but a lot of the older people in my work place were thrilled at the increase (even those on low income), as saving for when they leave work. TFSA's are very popular with seniors / boomers, so I don't think that's very smart by the Liberals, they are an important vote.
    Last edited by moahunter; 05-05-2015 at 07:47 AM.

  4. #4
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    ^ Read Terry Milewski review of PC's response: http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/just...-war-1.3060584

    The spin on this economic plan is an incredible "Trudeau Tax" which is solely based on this change to TFSA's, not the actual tax decrease on the low/ mid tax brackets. And Mr. Poilievre is finding a way to say his lies with a straight face. Incredible skill.

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    ^all politics is "spin", its spin of Trudeau to say the income splitting doesn't benefit most families with children (not true). The Conservatives noted the same thing I did it seems, the TFSA increase was very popular among an important demographic.

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    I like the TFSA, we also income split.

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    ^ The TFSA and income splitting factually do not help most families. Factually. For those they do help, they disproportionately assist the wealthy, who do not need the tax assistance.

    I just find it hard to believe so-called fiscal conservatives would institute such a fiscally irresponsible policy. They are wasting tax dollars on programs that people don't need.

    As a fiscal conservative (i.e. someone who believes we should conserve our money and spend it pragmatically), I find it obvious that we should be spending our hard earned tax dollars on programs that have the most impact.

    The federal conservatives are conservative in name only. They are fiscally irresponsible. They waste your money on programs nobody needs. Wasting money is not fiscally conservative, we should be spending it on the programs with the most positive impact.
    Last edited by Jaerdo; 05-05-2015 at 09:08 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    ^ The TFSA and income splitting factually do not help most families. Factually.
    Please prove this. Any two income family with children, unless the parents earn exactly the same amount, will most likely get some benefit from income splitting. TFSA's it turns out, are mostly held by modest income familes (and per what I have observed, are very popular with seniors). Regardless, people with kids can see it in their tax returns, so Trudeau can spin as much as he wants, the electorate see the hard money.
    Last edited by moahunter; 05-05-2015 at 09:20 AM.

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    "A study by Tristat Resources commissioned by the Broadbent Institute finds that the majority of Canadian families with children under 18 would get no benefit at all from the Conservatives’ income splitting scheme, despite this group being the express target of the tax policy. Fewer than 4% of families with children under 18 are eligible for a benefit in excess of $5,000, while two out of three of the targeted families would receive less than $500."

    "Nine out of 10 Canadian households would receive no benefit at all from the proposed tax policy. Under 1% of all households would be eligible for benefits in excess of $5,000."

    Two out of three families that are supposed to be "helped" by this program receive what amounts to nothing, for a program that will cost us billions.

    "The biggest winners from income splitting would come from the 3.7% of families with a single spouse breadwinner able to shift $50,000 of taxable income from the top tax bracket to the bottom rates of zero and 15%, resulting in an average benefit of more than $7,000."

    So now we see who this actually targets: rich families with one stay-at-home parent. Clearly because the average Canadian family makes $136,270 plus and can afford to have a stay at home parent, right?

    The very poor get no benefit. Single mothers get no benefit. The middle class get almost no benefit.

    "Only 1.7% of families have a higher-income spouse in the top tax bracket
    and the lower-income spouse paying no tax. "

    This program is a complete waste of money. The impact is negligible. It is USELESS for the vast majority of families. It is completely fiscally irresponsible.

    If you think this program helps you, and you make less than $136k as the sole breadwinner in your family, you are deluding yourself.

    You know what would have ACTUALLY helped the majority of Canadians? A cut to the middle class and poor tax.

    But that is pragmatism. That is fiscal responsibility. We don't get that from the so-called "conservatives". All we get from them is extreme big government corporate socialism. Massive income redistribution, just to the rich.

    https://www.broadbentinstitute.ca/si...plit-final.pdf

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    "A study by Tristat Resources commissioned by the Broadbent Institute finds that the majority of Canadian families with children under 18 would get no benefit at all from the Conservatives’ income splitting scheme, despite this group being the express target of the tax policy. Fewer than 4% of families with children under 18 are eligible for a benefit in excess of $5,000, while two out of three of the targeted families would receive less than $500."
    So two out of three targetted families get some money back, but that's no benefit at all? Brilliant study, contradicts itself in first paragraph.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    ^ The TFSA and income splitting factually do not help most families. Factually. For those they do help, they disproportionately assist the wealthy, who do not need the tax assistance.

    I just find it hard to believe so-called fiscal conservatives would institute such a fiscally irresponsible policy. They are wasting tax dollars on programs that people don't need.

    As a fiscal conservative (i.e. someone who believes we should conserve our money and spend it pragmatically), I find it obvious that we should be spending our hard earned tax dollars on programs that have the most impact.

    The federal conservatives are conservative in name only. They are fiscally irresponsible. They waste your money on programs nobody needs. Wasting money is not fiscally conservative, we should be spending it on the programs with the most positive impact.
    So government policy should only cater to the majority?

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    ^^ Majority of families vs targeted families (who the program is intended for). Read closer.

    It is also an absolutely terrible program in terms of return on investment. Horrible bang for your buck. Billions spent for negligible impact.

    Look at it for what it really is: big government socialism for the rich. A completely inefficient program that redistributes tax dollars towards the rich. That is ALL this is. It is no help to your average Canadian.

    Again, if we need to help Canadian families, give a blanket tax reduction to those who need it. Don't spend billions to shift millions from the poor to the rich.

    This is the exact type of program that the conservatives love to fearmonger as a "big government NDP program". Inefficient, poorly thought out, ill designed, ineffective.

    ^ The government should govern pragmatically to receive the highest return on investment. The purported purpose of this program was to reduce the strain on families. This program does not do that. It just moves around money in a completely inefficient and wasteful way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    ^ The TFSA and income splitting factually do not help most families. Factually. For those they do help, they disproportionately assist the wealthy, who do not need the tax assistance.

    I just find it hard to believe so-called fiscal conservatives would institute such a fiscally irresponsible policy. They are wasting tax dollars on programs that people don't need.

    As a fiscal conservative (i.e. someone who believes we should conserve our money and spend it pragmatically), I find it obvious that we should be spending our hard earned tax dollars on programs that have the most impact.

    The federal conservatives are conservative in name only. They are fiscally irresponsible. They waste your money on programs nobody needs. Wasting money is not fiscally conservative, we should be spending it on the programs with the most positive impact.
    So saving is bad.My son is his 40,s and they are far from rich, but have put money in TFSA

  14. #14

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    What's wrong with giving people the option to save more money?

    I know lots of people (none of them rich) who all support the increased TSFA contributions. I have one because it's better than a regular savings account. I can save for big expenses like vacations and emergency home repairs. Lots of my coworkers already are going to get pensions, and have been advised by professionals to save their extra money in TFSAs instead of their RRSPs because that way they will get to keep more of the money they save when they retire. What's wrong with letting people keep money they earn?


    I cannot stand this fabricated Liberal/Socialist "war" on certain groups of regular people just because they are perceived to be "rich".

    Everybody is just doing their best to use financial tools available to them to get by.

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    "Taxable income splitting for families with children, including the $50,000 limit, would cost $4.9 billion. "

    "If implemented, full income splitting would be on par with cutting corporate income tax rates in half or lopping 2% off the GST. It would join the ranks of the most expensive tax changes in decades.

    https://www.policyalternatives.ca/si..._in_Canada.pdf

    Headline: Federal Conservatives Waste Almost $5 Billion on Big Government Program

    Nobody is waging "war" on the rich. Sensible, fiscally conservative people are just saying we should stop the big government socialist transfers to people who don't need them. If we REALLY need to help families, lets directly help them with a program that doesn't waste billions of dollars. You know, like cutting taxes or something?

    Also, why are we "helping" everyone, regardless of whether they need to be helped? Shouldn't we be putting tax dollars to the most EFFICIENT use? Wouldn't a fiscally conservative person prioritize investments to get the highest return?
    Last edited by Jaerdo; 05-05-2015 at 10:35 AM.

  16. #16

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    ^you realize it was the Liberals who cut corporate taxes? And you realize, government revenues have actually gone up, not down, since that cut - when corporate taxes are lower, business invest more, the economy grows faster, employment is higher (more employment tax dollars) and the government gets more tax revenue not less over the long term. Its not about cutting up a bigger slice of pie for the government, its about making the pie bigger for everyone.

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    Why do you assume I am tacitly supporting the liberals by pointing out the blatant big-government waste in the Federal conservative party? They are both turds. All of our federal parties are turds. None are pragmatic and fiscally responsible. I'm not even going to engage your trickle down theory which has been debunked as fiscally irresponsible in the real world, because that isn't the point of this debate.

    The point of posting that is, the cost of this massive big-government program would be so astronomically high if fully implemented that they could have cut corporate taxes or reduced the GST.

    This is big government waste at its finest. Inefficient, useless for the vast majority of people. The opposite of fiscal conservatism.

    You need to stop blindly supporting the conservative party. Just because their name says "conservative", doesn't mean they are.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    ^ The TFSA and income splitting factually do not help most families.
    They help my family.

    We aren't "wealthy". We are still paying back student debt and fixing and old house so we can build a life we desire. I have 2 jobs and my wife has one. Because of my extra job I make more money than her, but get taxed to death (punished) for being ambitious and working harder. Income splitting helps us out. We both have modest TSFAs.

    My family works incredibly hard, and every once in a while the government throws us a bone and detractors whine about it, assuming that we have things "too easy" just because they cannot take advantage of those tax credits.

    Those types of attitudes make me want to throw up. We still pay a ton of taxes every year.

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    ^ You think they help your family, but the return is a lot lower than the investment. The question here is not "is there any gain at all". It is "is the marginal gain worth the massive investment". The answer to that is no.

    The support families get is zero for most, and negligible for most of the rest. If you are truly being helped a lot, sorry to say, but you are "wealthy". You are a top income earner if that is the case. This is just the statistical reality of the situation. Nobody is upset for you for being wealthy. We just want our tax dollars to be spent in the most responsible, rational, and pragmatic way. We don't like our government wasting our money on huge programs that give less benefit than they cost.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    ^ We just want our tax dollars to be spent in the most responsible, rational, and pragmatic way. We don't like our government wasting our money on huge programs that give less benefit than they cost.
    Who is we? So what did you think of the Liberals previous plans for a national child care program, did you hate that (given its a huge government program, that would have had massive cost, and not benefited families where one parent chooses to stay home) - a plan Trudeau has convieniently sidelined? Or the gun registry, wasn't that a huge government program that cost a billion dollars for squat? You agree, that the Liberals messed up on those ideas? The TFSA increase costs next to nothing to admister, and income splitting also seems to have gone very smoothly.
    Last edited by moahunter; 05-05-2015 at 10:54 AM.

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    ^ Yes.

    Gun registry is useless, as the majority of crimes with guns are when they are stolen. Better idea - require a license and mental health checks to buy them in the first place, end of story there. If someone is going to steal a gun, they are going to get it anyway. Having some ridiculous wasteful program to monitor LEGAL gun owners is a waste of time and money.

    I support some child care programs that have a higher economic benefit than cost (this includes both maternity/paternity subsidies and subsidies for two income households). The numbers say that the economic gain of having more people in the workforce is higher than the cost to the government. Therefore it is pragmatic, responsible, and fiscally conservative to have a program.

    HOWEVER, I also think that this should be done at a provincial level, as it falls under provincial jurisdiction to do so. I also disagree that all families should just get child care as a right. Single income families do not need a subsidy for child care - that is why one parent is staying home. Child care should not be a benefit, it should be an incentive to get back to work and grow our economy.

    I'm not a booster of ANY party in Canada. I'm a pragmatist and a fiscal conservative. I believe that we should make rational, level headed decisions not influenced by ideology that give the most bang for our buck. We should run the government like a rational, responsible household. Make investments if they pay off. Don't waste money. Protect our own.

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    If you are truly being helped a lot, sorry to say, but you are "wealthy". You are a top income earner if that is the case.
    No, we are not wealthy. This "top income" you refer to isn't a lot of money - considering we share this income.

  23. #23

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    ^^I don't think the government has any business preaching who should be working or who shouldn't, or incentivizing either, through subsidies. Income spilitting simply fixes an inequality, its isn't fair that a family with kids and two people earning 50k pays less tax than a family with one making 70k and one making 30k. And no, that's not a wealthy family in either case, its an average one almost exactly per median family salaries.

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    ^ Life isn't fair. We shouldn't do what our silly ideologies and values tell us is "fair". That is garbage. That is the opposite of pragmatism. Being a slave to your ideology is the opposite of fiscal responsibility and conservatism.

    We should do what is the most pragmatic. What is the best way to improve our country. What is the best return for our investment. What is the most responsible and efficient route.

    Blind ideology is moronic. It is the problem in all western politics right now. We are slaves to our uninformed values. That is why our countries flounder in debt and fail to make good, hard decisions.

    ^^ Ah, the classic "I don't realize what I have". If you are in that top bracket, you are wealthy. Wealth is relative. You may not be as wealthy as you want to be, but you are still far more wealthy than the average person. If you struggle, perhaps it is time to get your house in order and make some pragmatic decisions, alike to what I wish our governments would do.

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    ^ Life isn't fair. We shouldn't do what our silly ideologies and values tell us is "fair". That is garbage. That is the opposite of pragmatism. Being a slave to your ideology is the opposite of fiscal responsibility and conservatism.
    Yeah, lets not worry about fairness in the tax system or government policy. Great, good luck forming a party and finding some followers who believe in that. I don't think Trudeau's plan is fair, or smart / pragmatic. His idea, especially on TFSA's, has just turned a whole lot of potential voters against him. There will also be a lot of voters, like my 70k 30k example of a modest middle class family making about the median income, who will also be turned off by these ideas. Thats not a pragmatic way to win power.
    Last edited by moahunter; 05-05-2015 at 11:23 AM.

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    None of them do. That is why they are all turds. They value their silly, childish, blind ideologies over pragmatism. They are unwilling to get past this and make cold, pragmatic, and rational decisions.

    Fiscal conservatism is not value driven. That is a lie you have been sold by power-hungry career politicians over the last 50 years. Fiscal conservatism is cold and pragmatic. It treats our country like a household, and makes the hard decisions that it takes to become strong.

    What do we want? We want a powerful economy. We want a high standard of living. We want our children to have opportunities. So let's make it happen.

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    If you struggle, perhaps it is time to get your house in order and make some pragmatic decisions, alike to what I wish our governments would do.
    Look. I work an extra job so I can help our family pay off our student loans faster, and you are wagging your finger at me for being "wealthy" and for not getting my house in order.


    Your solution is for me to give up my second job so I can be less ambitious, and to pay back our loans slower, so i can be less wealthy?

    Kiss my ***. I don't care if I get banned for saying it, but you are being a complete shallow jerk by judging and shaming me and my family for working hard. Seriously, kiss my ***. Open mouth.

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    I don't know why you've decided to blow a gasket and take this so personally. Very odd.

    I just pointed out that by all standards, you are wealthy. You just are. The numbers don't lie. I'm sorry you don't feel like you have enough, but compared to the average person, you do.

    I'm not judging you for being wealthy. I don't care that you're wealthy. I'm not telling you to work harder.

    What I am suggesting is that you stop asking for handouts that you don't need to make your life even better at the expense of people who have less. You are wealthy. You don't need tax breaks that come at the expense of poor people.

    If you want more, if you want to pay down your loans faster, that is AWESOME and I think you should work for it as I'm sure you do. Demanding handouts when people have less, though? That is fiscally irresponsible.
    Last edited by Jaerdo; 05-05-2015 at 12:30 PM.

  29. #29

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    Not surprising...

    How the rich would benefit from the Liberals’ middle class tax cut

    "The NDP is right. Higher-income earners will benefit more from the Liberal tax cut plan than the middle class "


    Stephen Gordon
    May 7, 2015
    http://www.macleans.ca/economy/econo...class-tax-cut/


  30. #30

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    So with the NDP proposed provincial rate of 15% for those making 200K or more and the Libs 33%, that would equate to a 48% marginal tax rate for those at those income levels. The highest in North America topping out California even!
    Last edited by accountingsucks; 09-05-2015 at 09:39 PM.

  31. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by accountingsucks View Post
    So with the NDP proposed provincial rate of 15% for those making 200K or more and the Libs 33%, that would equate to a 48% marginal tax rate for those at those income levels. The highest in North America topping out California even!
    And society has accepted far higher top MTRs in the past.

  32. #32

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    ^we don't live in the past. High top marginal tax rates hit high salary professionals, think, doctors, and law partners, etc. They typically don't impact the very rich much. We will just end up having to pay doctors more to attract them to come here, because they will be taxed more, either that, or not have them, or they find ways to reduce their tax, as Phillip Cross former statistics Canada chief points out, these high taxes never bring in the revenue they are projected to:

    http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/canad...plan-1.2367345

    Also, I remember when Harper introduced income splitting, I saw lots of comments from people that's it's unfair as does nothing for families without kids. However, Trudeaus plan gives another 2 billion to those families with kids. Where are the complaints now?
    Last edited by moahunter; 10-05-2015 at 08:57 AM.

  33. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^we don't live in the past. High top marginal tax rates hit high salary professionals, think, doctors, and law partners, etc. They typically don't impact the very rich much. We will just end up having to pay doctors more to attract them to come here, because they will be taxed more, either that, or not have them, or they find ways to reduce their tax, as Phillip Cross former statistics Canada chief points out, these high taxes never bring in the revenue they are projected to:

    http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/canad...plan-1.2367345

    Also, I remember when Harper introduced income splitting, I saw lots of comments from people that's it's unfair as does nothing for families without kids. However, Trudeaus plan gives another 2 billion to those families with kids. Where are the complaints now?
    Yes, I agree that competition is relative and all that matters is today's relative rates. Nonetheless, the scaremongering and excessive use of superlatives by opponents of any tax increase, with these people saying there will be mass exoduses, economic failures etc. if tax increases are even suggested, simply ignores history.

  34. #34

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    It's quite interesting how many separate events of one week can change one's attitude.

    At this point, for me anyway, the federal Conservative and Liberal sniping at each other's platform seem exactly the same as the soap opera between the provincial PCs and Wildrose. Two pieces of the same fractured, debased coin.

    The Liberal platform is a bandaid to the problems successive federal governments have inflicted on us for --- what? 25 years? 30 years? 40 years? At some point citizens became taxpayers and corporations became citizens. This was obvious by the late Mulroney years, but I wonder whether the change had not taken place, along with so much of everything else, somewhere in the early eighties or at the end of the seventies.

    Twiddling with the tax base is really so minor when the basic corporate-security system stays the same.

    I had been Liberal (though with strange views, I know) for decades. No more.

    The one good thing is that the coming federal election will not feature a fragmented centre-left. It will feature a fragmented Liberal/Conservative right. What is now important is to make sure this truth is universally acknowledged by October.

    If it is, the national future is bright. And economic plans can be drawn up thereafter.

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