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Thread: State of the world, state sponsored terror, terror and war in general

  1. #201
    grish
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    I kept reading your name as kkozorik for some reason... It was meant to be a contraction... in the past I kept copy-paste your name as I didn't really pay attention to spelling... kkz then...

    and, really, you have had so much time to think about the event of beheadings and using a 14 year old as part of a suicide father-son team... what is your real reaction to the news?
    Last edited by grish; 25-08-2014 at 07:41 PM.

  2. #202

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    Worth a skim...

    Don't Censor Islamic State, Spy on It - Bloomberg View
    http://www.bloombergview.com/article...tate-spy-on-it

  3. #203

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    Gosh, let me think. Am I in favour of beheadings and the use of children as suicide bombers.

    Can I have some time to think it over and get back to you? I have to decide if I hate them enough or not enough.

    Of course it's appalling and an example of just how badly our species is capable of treating each other. The sad part is that it's not surprising. Saudi Arabia, supposedly our allies, still uses beheading as a means of execution. There's also cases where they have let their religion get the better of common sense like the case where there was a fire and young girls were locked inside the burning building because they didn't have time to grab their veils. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Mecca_girls'_school_fire. We also get Christians killing Jews, Jews Killing Muslims, Muslims killing Muslims, Jews killing Christians, Muslims killing Jews, Buddhists killing Muslims, and so on and so on and so on. We're a particularly nasty species when it comes to treating each other with any sort of respect especially when it comes down to which imaginary friend is the right one.

  4. #204

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    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    and, really, you have had so much time to think about the event of beheadings and using a 14 year old as part of a suicide father-son team... what is your real reaction to the news?
    How is a beahding or a suicide bomber, worse than an IDF troop shooting a child? Death is death, both sides are just using the technology they have available. It used to be that the founders of the Israeli state also used what you would no doubt call, terrorist weapons (i.e. King David bombing), one persons terrorist is another persons freedom fighter.

  5. #205

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    How is a beahding or a suicide bomber, worse than an IDF troop shooting a child?
    I've been staying off this thread but I really can't believe you said that...

    You cannot see the difference between a quick clean death (still a tragedy and a tremendous loss) by a gunshot...

    and

    A slow agonizing death being held captive, threatened and then being beheaded...from what I have read a very painful extended death...never mind knowing for a long period it was coming...and the person doing it standing beside you telling the world it is about to happen?

    Technology available...yeah none of the automatic weapons they have would have done the job...nah had to behead the victim.

    Never mind the difference in the effects on the families.

    Get real moa...better yet if yuo really believe that there is no difference, get some help.

    In my highly biased personal opinion

  6. #206

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    The beheading is terrible period. Killing of a child is terrible. The number of traffic deaths every year is terrible. Dropping a 2,000 pound bomb is terrible. A civil war like in Syria is terrible. The mass genocide in Rwanda as the world stood by is terrible. The 60 million killed in China under Mao is terrible.

    What amazing is that the tragic death of one white person can be all out of proportion.
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  7. #207
    grish
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    EPRT, the rcent discussion was precipitated by this:


    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    More from ISIS:

    http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/08...uicide-bomber/

    display heads... using child suicide bomber...
    which solicited response like this:

    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    US army did the same thing, displaying the bodies of prisoners at Abu Ghraib, They may not have decapitated them but, after being water boarded, electroshocked and kicked to death, they were still dead and displayed as trophies of war.
    and after much debate followed up by this:

    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    and, really, you have had so much time to think about the event of beheadings and using a 14 year old as part of a suicide father-son team... what is your real reaction to the news?
    How is a beahding or a suicide bomber, worse than an IDF troop shooting a child? Death is death, both sides are just using the technology they have available. It used to be that the founders of the Israeli state also used what you would no doubt call, terrorist weapons (i.e. King David bombing), one persons terrorist is another persons freedom fighter.
    Last edited by grish; 26-08-2014 at 02:08 PM.

  8. #208
    grish
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    As far as I am concerned, it is not ok to excuse or hedge in the assessment of an event just because you hate someone else more. But much has been said on the subject by me, and so I'll take a break from this thread.

  9. #209

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    Are you suggesting that torturing and kicking someone to death isn't horrible? Why the outrage for one and not the other? Or dropping 1000 pound bombs in civilian areas and demolishing apartment buildings to get at one person? Why does the west get a pass in the use of terror? Oh right, we're the "good" guys so what we do must be righteous and good. When we realize that we're capable of just as much terror and evil as those on the other side, perhaps we'll learn to step away from the situation and see it with new eyes. Just because one person is killed by someone's direct hand doesn't mean that it's any better to terrorize people from a distance, either by a plane flying high above or with a remotely piloted drone. Our technology makes it all too easy to remove ourselves from the dirty side of killing our fellow human beings. Just because we don't get our hands bloody doesn't mean that our hands are always clean.

  10. #210

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    The beheading is terrible period. Killing of a child is terrible. The number of traffic deaths every year is terrible. Dropping a 2,000 pound bomb is terrible. A civil war like in Syria is terrible. The mass genocide in Rwanda as the world stood by is terrible. The 60 million killed in China under Mao is terrible.
    Up to this point we completely agree, thank you.

    What amazing is that the tragic death of one white person can be all out of proportion.
    As I believe Stalin once said....to paraphrase:

    The needless death of a person is a tragedy....

    The death of many thousands a statistic.

    edit added after: The loss of many thousands, impersonally presented, is very difficult for most people to get their head around. The loss of an individual is very comprehensible to most people.

    Now add in the wonderful video coverage of the execution and yes it does exactly what the terrorists wanted...it gets everyone's attention.

    It was a gruesome, public death for PR effect. Not collateral damage, not an accident, not an oops and not a military error of any kind.

    My counter point to moa was simple and direct...

    To die by a gunshot is fast and very likely no pain

    To die the way the journalist was beheaded is not fast, very painful and horrific.

    The excuse they were using the technology they had is false...lots for guns there and being used.

    To say that the methods of death were the same is garbage.

    In my highly biased personal opinion
    Last edited by Thomas Hinderks; 26-08-2014 at 02:50 PM. Reason: werding added after in explanation as noted

  11. #211

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    My last response on this thread as I am getting incredibly angry...

    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Are you suggesting that torturing and kicking someone to death isn't horrible? Why the outrage for one and not the other? Or dropping 1000 pound bombs in civilian areas and demolishing apartment buildings to get at one person? Why does the west get a pass in the use of terror? Oh right, we're the "good" guys so what we do must be righteous and good. When we realize that we're capable of just as much terror and evil as those on the other side, perhaps we'll learn to step away from the situation and see it with new eyes. Just because one person is killed by someone's direct hand doesn't mean that it's any better to terrorize people from a distance, either by a plane flying high above or with a remotely piloted drone. Our technology makes it all too easy to remove ourselves from the dirty side of killing our fellow human beings. Just because we don't get our hands bloody doesn't mean that our hands are always clean.
    My point all along has been....stop!

    I don't care who you are.......stop!

    The justification I see going on in this thread makes me sick.

    In my highly biased personal opinion

  12. #212

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    What about having a building collapsed on top of you and slowly bleeding to death in the dark and dust and debris?

    Or burning to death in a fire caused by shoddy maintenance by a landlord more interested in profit than people?

    It's another way that we can show each other just how horribly we can treat each other as human beings. To say that this death is more significant than that one is getting close to calling something "a good death", even when it's caused by another person.

    When the Americans gave Saddam the location of Iranian troops so he could use chemical weapons, was that a good thing or a bad thing? They didn't actually fire off the attack themselves but they did ensure it was used to it's best efficiency.

    The intelligence included imagery and maps about Iranian troop movements, as well as the locations of Iranian logistics facilities and details about Iranian air defenses. The Iraqis used mustard gas and sarin prior to four major offensives in early 1988 that relied on U.S. satellite imagery, maps, and other intelligence. These attacks helped to tilt the war in Iraq's favor and bring Iran to the negotiating table, and they ensured that the Reagan administration's long-standing policy of securing an Iraqi victory would succeed. But they were also the last in a series of chemical strikes stretching back several years that the Reagan administration knew about and didn't disclose.

    http://www.foreignpolicy.com/article...he_gassed_iran
    Is dying by mustard gas better or worse than beheading? It's all terror.

  13. #213

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    The only justification I see is people saying that this way of dying is worse than that way. There's still suffering and terror and pain and loss. Perhaps if there was live video from an air strike showing people being killed by a bomb we'd be more appalled than we have been. But it's distant and remote and unseen. We see the aftermath but that's not nearly as horrifying as seeing it happen live before our eyes. Does it make it less horrifying simply because we don't see it happen?

  14. #214

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    Here let me make my position crystal clear....

    I don't care which two groups you want to argue about.

    If there is NO first death

    There are NO retaliatory deaths

    There is NO conflict/war/whatever you want to call it

    There are worse deaths than others...but to justify the deaths is garbage and sickening.

    Want to debate....debate not starting.

    Debate maintaining peace on all sides.

    In my highly biased personal opinion

  15. #215
    grish
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    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle20232331/

    The United Nations says 43 peacekeepers have been detained by an armed group in Syria during fighting and 81 other peacekeepers are trapped.
    The office of UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon says the peacekeepers were detained early Thursday on the Syrian side of the Golan Heights during a “period of increased fighting between armed elements and the Syrian Arab Armed Forces.”

  16. #216
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  17. #217
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    http://www.thestar.com/news/world/20...to_severe.html

    note the picture linked to the story with a caption:
    A Syrian man looks at the rubble of a five storey apartment building that was destroyed in Aleppo on Wednesday. Britian raised its terror alert level to severe Friday as a result of developments in Iraq and Syria.

  18. #218

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    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    Any person that can be proven to have left Canada to join violent terrorist organizations anywhere should immediately have their citzenship withdrawn as well as their rights and rights to assistance as a Canadian.

    In my highly biased personal opinion

  19. #219
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    apparently some were seen burning their canadian passports... not sure if this is merely symbolic or equivalent to formal renunciation of being a canadian.

  20. #220

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    They'll be corpses in a year or two.

    I doubt ISIS would use newly converted Muslims from Canada for anything more than cannon fodder or suicide missions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    They'll be corpses in a year or two.

    I doubt ISIS would use newly converted Muslims from Canada for anything more than cannon fodder or suicide missions.
    i wouldn't be so quick to dismiss isis' ability to plan and to execute - as in carry out as well as to kill - long range plans as well as short term objectives.

    many of these groups have much longer horizons than they are given credit for which is something they rely on and make good use of. while some of those "new recruits" may end up as cannon fodder or on suicide missions, those are short tem. longer term, those new recruits have wide ranging social networks and contacts and they have recruiting potential of their own (per the recent beheading tapes) that will be nurtured as much as possible and not squandered.

    making light by dismissing their fates probably plays into isis' hands.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Hinderks View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    Any person that can be proven to have left Canada to join violent terrorist organizations anywhere should immediately have their citzenship withdrawn as well as their rights and rights to assistance as a Canadian.

    In my highly biased personal opinion
    Gut feeling wise, I completely agree. But I don't know how the due process for something like that could ever work.

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    I also agree this should be the case, but as Marcel says, due process would need to be followed.
    Personally, I hope the murdering terrorists die as slow and cruel a death as they inflict on their victims.

  24. #224

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    How'd that plan of keeping all former members of the Ba'ath party out of government work out for you?

    In actuality, ISIS managed to achieve their blitz across Iraq by forming an unlikely coalition with upwards of 41 different armed Sunni groups throughout the country. Though ideologically diverse, the groups had all grown tired of Baghdad's preferential treatment of the Shia majority in the country.

    Among the more noteworthy of the parties aligned with ISIS is the Army of the Men of the Naqshbandi Order.

    The Naqshbandis, located primarily in Mosul, were formed in 2007 by former members of Saddam Hussein's Baath party. Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri, Saddam's former deputy and the head of the Baath party following Saddam's execution in 2007, is in charge of the group.



    Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/sadda...#ixzz3BpmYYAaW
    Remove all Ba'ath members from the military and government. Give preferential treatment to one group (i.e. - your own religious or ethnic group) over another, preferably the same as the ones you just kicked out of the government. Act surprised when they don't like you very much.

  25. #225

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Hinderks View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    Any person that can be proven to have left Canada to join violent terrorist organizations anywhere should immediately have their citzenship withdrawn as well as their rights and rights to assistance as a Canadian.

    In my highly biased personal opinion
    Gut feeling wise, I completely agree. But I don't know how the due process for something like that could ever work.
    Marcel and Ralph60

    I believe this can be done under the Treason Act as it exists.

    If not it is long overdue to create legislation that allows it to happen under the burden of proof required by the courts.

    This is not the first instance it goes back decades into the 50s with IRA and other organizations which is why I said:
    violent terrorist organizations anywhere
    In my highly biased personal opinion

  26. #226
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    Canada does not have a Treason Act. Treason is covered under Section 46 of the Criminal Code. Under Section 46 a Canadian citizen in a terrorist group would have to assist "an enemy at war with Canada, or any armed forces against whom Canadian Forces are engaged in hostilities, whether or not a state of war exists between Canada and the country whose forces they are." So currently, since no Canadian Forces are engaged with ISIS, Canadians in ISIS would not be considered as having committed treason.

    However, the Strengthening Canadian Citizenship Act allows the government to revoke the citizenship of someone who holds dual citizenship even if they are a natural born Canadian. This is being challenged under the argument there is no constitutional provision for revoking the citizenship of a natural born Canadian.

    Apparently Britain, which does have specific act governing treason, does have a law allowing the stripping of citizenship of natural born citizens. Of course they don't have a pesky constitution to worry about.

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  27. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    How'd that plan of keeping all former members of the Ba'ath party out of government work out for you?
    Who are you talking to this time? Is it the US that is at fault again?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    In actuality, ISIS managed to achieve their blitz across Iraq by forming an unlikely coalition with upwards of 41 different armed Sunni groups throughout the country. Though ideologically diverse, the groups had all grown tired of Baghdad's preferential treatment of the Shia majority in the country.

    Among the more noteworthy of the parties aligned with ISIS is the Army of the Men of the Naqshbandi Order.

    The Naqshbandis, located primarily in Mosul, were formed in 2007 by former members of Saddam Hussein's Baath party. Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri, Saddam's former deputy and the head of the Baath party following Saddam's execution in 2007, is in charge of the group.



    Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/sadda...#ixzz3BpmYYAaW
    Remove all Ba'ath members from the military and government. Give preferential treatment to one group (i.e. - your own religious or ethnic group) over another, preferably the same as the ones you just kicked out of the government. Act surprised when they don't like you very much.

    Well, there are at least two perspectives on this:
    1. People who chose to remove Baathists from the military and government were right about them.
    2. It assisted or contributed to radicalization of baathists...
    or some combination of the two...

    Including them into military or government may or may not have changed anything. It is entirely possible that the military would be having an in-fighting war amongst themselves as well as against ISIS. Same with political fight within government. Just because history unfolded one way, does not mean that making one change would cause the course of the war to be entirely different.

  28. #228

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    I see this as a vicious circle...instead of addressing the root causes, we provide more recruitment propaganda for exterimists. Basically they argue, west treats Muslims, even if they are citizens as second tier citizens...this in turn help nudge those symphetatic to ISIS, or other organizations to switch to active members, doing lone wolf terrorist acts...which in turn makes governments propose even further invasive measures, justified by terrorism threat...which in turn....

  29. #229
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    I've kept out of this thread, but this morning I am sick and bored.

    Some random thoughts by me on this matter:

    1. In the western world, political matters are handled more peacefully than they would have two centuries ago: Quebec independence (FLQ terrorism in the early 70s aside), Scottish independence, Alberta's protection of its oil reserves, collapse of Communism in Europe (Romania aside) and the division of Czechoslovakia. In other times or places, revolution and wars would have taken place.

    2. Another brutal conflict that's been raging for over a decade now is the Mexican Drug War, consisting of $1B organized crime organizations using the latest in weaponry to butcher each other and anyone else who hinders them, including police and innocent bystanders. The bombings, kidnappings, massacres, shootouts and videotaped beheadings are all reminiscent of what's been happening in Syria the last 2 years. But nobody lifts a finger to resolve this, despite the threat to the highly lucrative tourism industry - no UN resolutions, no international interventions. People other than the gangs must be profiting from this.

    3. Religion is not the sole cause of violence, war and terrorism - it's just an excuse. It is people being people. Going way back to Neanderthal days, history has shown that conflicts arise due to impoverishment, oppression, dominance and other things that make people unhappy. One group of humans will fight another group of humans for more fertile land, access to ports, to maintain power and dominance, or just plain dislike for each other over anything from skin color to cultural differences.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    How'd that plan of keeping all former members of the Ba'ath party out of government work out for you?

    In actuality, ISIS managed to achieve their blitz across Iraq by forming an unlikely coalition with upwards of 41 different armed Sunni groups throughout the country. Though ideologically diverse, the groups had all grown tired of Baghdad's preferential treatment of the Shia majority in the country.

    Among the more noteworthy of the parties aligned with ISIS is the Army of the Men of the Naqshbandi Order.

    The Naqshbandis, located primarily in Mosul, were formed in 2007 by former members of Saddam Hussein's Baath party. Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri, Saddam's former deputy and the head of the Baath party following Saddam's execution in 2007, is in charge of the group.



    Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/sadda...#ixzz3BpmYYAaW
    Remove all Ba'ath members from the military and government. Give preferential treatment to one group (i.e. - your own religious or ethnic group) over another, preferably the same as the ones you just kicked out of the government. Act surprised when they don't like you very much.
    how did that plan of excluding some groups work out? unfortunately it didn't turn out much different than other plans to include similar groups ( http://m.thestar.com/#/article/news/...ays_abbas.html ):
    Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas blamed Hamas on Friday for needlessly extending fighting with Israel in the Gaza Strip, casting doubt on the future of the Palestinian unity government that the Islamic militant group backs.

    The remarks by Abbas come a few days after Israel and Hamas militants reached a truce after 50 bitter days of fighting.

    More than 2,100 Palestinians were killed, including hundreds of civilians. Seventy one people on the Israeli side, including six civilians were killed.

    Several Egyptian mediated cease-fire attempts during the conflict failed. Hamas eventually accepted almost the same truce offered at the beginning.

    “It was possible for us to avoid all of that, 2,000 martyrs, 10,000 injured, 50,000 houses (destroyed),” Abbas told Palestine TV in remarks broadcast Friday. He said Hamas had insisted on discussing demands first before ending the war, which only served to prolong the violence.
    emphasis added...
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  31. #231
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    Full text of Obama address RE: ISIS:

    https://time.com/3320666/obama-isis-speech-full-text/

    Promises four things:
    1. Air strikes
    2. Support of forces on ground such as Iraq army
    3. Support to Syria opposition
    4. Humanitarian aid...

    In context of Ukraine Vs Syria and China Vs. Japan... are we on path to WWIII?

  32. #232

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    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    are we on path to WWIII?
    No, just more of the exact same thing (more or less) that has been happening across the world since the 1950s.

  33. #233
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    It's just that things seem to be coming to a boil with regional grievances escalating all at once. With world's attention split, my fear is that many of these will go unchecked to the point of no return.

  34. #234

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    Today is the 13th. year anniversary of 9/11. Have we come any further from there?.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  35. #235

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    ^ just a bit. Still full truth remains evasive.

    The New Yorker, September 9, 2014
    The Twenty-Eight Pages
    By Lawrence Wright

    http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-...ty-eight-pages



    In the meantime, the ministry of truth's description of its "interrogation" techniques is slightly upgraded, the "waterboarding" techniques was actually more like bringing the suspect "to the 'point of death'" compared to what was previously described.


    The Independent, 7 Sept. 2014
    Al-Qaeda suspects were brought to the 'point of death' during 'real torture' by CIA

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...a-9717388.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by DefinatelyMaybe View Post
    ^ just a bit. Still full truth remains evasive.

    The New Yorker, September 9, 2014
    The Twenty-Eight Pages
    By Lawrence Wright

    http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-...ty-eight-pages



    In the meantime, the ministry of truth's description of its "interrogation" techniques is slightly upgraded, the "waterboarding" techniques was actually more like bringing the suspect "to the 'point of death'" compared to what was previously described.


    The Independent, 7 Sept. 2014
    Al-Qaeda suspects were brought to the 'point of death' during 'real torture' by CIA

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...a-9717388.html
    while the "full truth" may well remain evasive, there shouldn't be any doubt that the 2,749 people who died thirteen years ago today and their families and loved ones would probably happily exchange the fate that befell them for being "brought to the 'point of death'" and then having the rest of their lives handed back to them.

    i'm also pretty sure stephen sotloff and james foley and thousands of iraqis would happily make that exchange as well.

    am i comfortable with that and the slippery slope it probably represents? not in the least.

    but if i have to make the choice for my family and my country and that choice is choosing between a potentially slippery slope and a cliff, i will guard and protect that slope as much as possible but will still choose it over the cliff...
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  37. #237

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    ^ No one defends the atrocities, 9/11 or now by ISIS. But do you see some relation between those events?

    If the story about Saudi support for 9/11 attackers is true (and that's why complete truth is important), isn't it weird/ironic how US guards its relation with that state? Aren't Saudis also suspected to financially and logistically help the ISIS/ISIL/IS? And now to combat those terrorists Kerry is banking on Saudis

    So instead of giving out moral lectures, should we ask some questions regarding the truth?

    BTW, your reasoning, admittedly uncomfortable, is following the same logic that justifies dropping nuclear bombs on other nations to end broader wars and further deaths....the only problem is the other nations/groups have the same self-righteousness sense.....see for example how Russia thinks it is west's fault to interfere in its sphere of influence and recently started nuclear warmongering...

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    In terms of history 9/11 is a middle event not a starting point. The key sequence, I think, runs like this:

    • USSR invades Afghanistan ->
    • USA funds Mujahideen ->
    • Al Qaeda grows from the Mujahideen ->
    • Al Queda launches numerous attacks in U.S. culminating in 9/11 ->
    • U.S. attacks Afghanistan as the source of Al Queda ->
    • U.S. uses war on terror argument to attack one of the few nations in the Middle East where Al Queda did not have a foothold ->
    • Massive number of Iraqi refugees flood into surrounding countries, primarily Syria ->
    • Al Queda rejoices and moves into Iraq ->
    • U.S. pulls major forces out of Middle East ->
    • Destabilized Syria descends into civil war ->
    • Spawning ISIS, an even more radical group than Al Queda ->
    • ISIS moves into the void left by the U.S. gutting of Iraq ->
    • ????

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

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    Quote Originally Posted by DefinatelyMaybe View Post
    ...
    BTW, your reasoning, admittedly uncomfortable, is following the same logic that justifies dropping nuclear bombs on other nations to end broader wars and further deaths...
    my reasoning follows no such same logic and your assuming/implying/stating it does is wrong.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  40. #240

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    Sorry if I got it wrong, but here is your comment for reference:

    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    ... but if i have to make the choice for my family and my country and that choice is choosing between a potentially slippery slope and a cliff, i will guard and protect that slope as much as possible but will still choose it over the cliff...

  41. #241

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    Ever wonder how many American military bases there are around the world?

    50? 100?

    In 2004 there were over 750. Now, it's over 1000.

    Do yourself a favour and listen to this documentary on CBC radio's Ideas program. An hour well spent.

    http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/episodes/201...ows-of-empire/

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    Quote Originally Posted by DefinatelyMaybe View Post
    Sorry if I got it wrong, but here is your comment for reference:

    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    ... but if i have to make the choice for my family and my country and that choice is choosing between a potentially slippery slope and a cliff, i will guard and protect that slope as much as possible but will still choose it over the cliff...
    and that reference to an interrogation where no one dies supports preemptive nuclear warfare how exactly????

    so yes, you got it wrong. definitely and not maybe.
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  43. #243

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    Sorry if your ego got hurt. Sometimes even gods need a reality check.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DefinatelyMaybe View Post
    Sorry if your ego got hurt. Sometimes even gods need a reality check.
    taking offense at being accused of supporting preemptive nuclear strikes is a hurt ego?

    trust me, my ego can withstand anything an anonymous internet poster can throw at the wall.
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    Default u.n. says palestinians, israelis reach deal on gaza reconstruction

    seeing as the more appropriate thread is still locked and there are already enough peripheral ones, i thought this one could maybe use a bit of good news to balance some of the end of the world slant that is so easy to succumb to and assign blame to:

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...rldNews&rpc=76

    hopefully this process will continue to take more steps forward than backward.
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    Default mortar fired from gaza :(

    and just a cautionary note that a bit of good news and hopefulness still doesn't equate to unbridled optimism:

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...rldNews&rpc=76
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  47. #247

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    And yet Israel announces annexation of more West Bank land with nary a peep.

    Israel annexing occupied territory "God gave it to us" or "We need buffer space"

    And the west tut-tut's and wags their finger while shipping them more weapons.

  48. #248

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    From the Economist, 6 Sept. 2014


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    I know I'm on the very extreme edge of this issue but I believe we have an ongoing problem with terrorism and strife because we have tried to fight limited and humane wars.
    Germany and Japan are peaceful today because we totally levelled their cities, destroyed their armed forces and defeated their people.
    There would be far fewer dead innocent people today if on Sept 12, 2001 Bush had turned a few valleys in Afghanistan into glass with Hydrogen bombs.

  50. #250

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    Wait, who's the good guys again?

    The NSA Helped Israel Blackmail Palestinians

    Among the personal statements, agents disclosed that the majority of Unit 8200's operations in Palestine targeted "innocent people unconnected to any military activity." The unit was instructed to keep any personal information potentially embarrassing or damaging to a Palestinian's life, including sexual preferences, extramarital affairs, financial trouble, family illnesses, or anything else that could be "used to extort/blackmail the person and turn them into a collaborator." The private "sex talk" intercepted by Palestinians (in what's becoming a gross trend for these surveillance scandals) were allegedly passed around by certain members of the unit for titters/yucks.

    One member, referred to as "D" by the Guardian, formerly a 29-year-old captain who served in the unit for eight years, told the paper that part of his decision to protest came from the dawning realization that his actions were really no different than those of any totalitarian government's secret police.

    http://blackbag.gawker.com/the-nsa-h.../+laceydonohue


  51. #251

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    Quote Originally Posted by ralph60 View Post
    I know I'm on the very extreme edge of this issue but I believe we have an ongoing problem with terrorism and strife because we have tried to fight limited and humane wars.
    Germany and Japan are peaceful today because we totally levelled their cities, destroyed their armed forces and defeated their people.
    There would be far fewer dead innocent people today if on Sept 12, 2001 Bush had turned a few valleys in Afghanistan into glass with Hydrogen bombs.
    Drop nukes in the Middle East as a response to a lucky terrorist attack on American soil and that precedence would have just assured far more than a doubling of efforts for nuke acquisition by any and all anti-american parties throughout the middle east and beyond.

    Nonetheless, I've heard the usual moronic phrases like: 'might only respects might', an eye for an eye, fight fire with fire and hope people are mentally above or more intellectually developed than such idiocy would suggest but... Single minded people are often just that. Read this:


    Hostages? No Problem Soviets Offer 'How-to' Lesson In Kidnapping - Philly.com
    http://articles.philly.com/1986-01-1...n-organization

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    KC, We are at war, whether you care to face reality or not.
    In my opinion, before we send a single Canadian soldier anywhere, we should pave the way with absolutely everything at our disposal.
    And do you honestly think our enemies aren't already doing everything in their power to attain nukes? Give your head a shake.
    Let's revisit this conversation after an atomic bomb in a shipping container goes off in Burrard inlet.

  53. #253

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    Quote Originally Posted by ralph60 View Post
    KC, We are at war, whether you care to face reality or not.
    In my opinion, before we send a single Canadian soldier anywhere, we should pave the way with absolutely everything at our disposal.
    And do you honestly think our enemies aren't already doing everything in their power to attain nukes? Give your head a shake.
    Let's revisit this conversation after an atomic bomb in a shipping container goes off in Burrard inlet.
    Of course we're at war, and of course many entities are attempting to obtain nuclear and other weapons. Also, of course if you (not Canada but the U.S.) uses nukes to wipe out a region* to send a message to one of those groups, you will automatically give the that enemy and a whole complement of other groups, increased funding and a massive ramping up of efforts everywhere to obtain and use nuclear weapons - and you won't know who, of 100 different groups, to target if that container wipes out a city. (Russia, China, Pakistan, and others would quickly realize that the U.S. is trigger happy and would likely see reason to supply any number of anti-American groups with nuclear weapons.

    * the casualties in any region likely would be made up of numerous pro American and indifferent groups that would suddenly turn very anti-American after they were attacked.

    Now, there's the tactical nuclear weapons which would greatly limit casualties but the consequences of using even those might create political and military chain reactions that would be hard to control.
    Last edited by KC; 21-09-2014 at 03:05 PM.

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    Let's revisit this conversation after an atomic bomb in a shipping container goes off in Burrard inlet.

  55. #255

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    Quote Originally Posted by ralph60 View Post
    Let's revisit this conversation after an atomic bomb in a shipping container goes off in Burrard inlet.
    Yes I read that the first time. Losing a city or ten to terrorist attacks isnt a new thought for me. My own father and other family members were in the Canadian military so I wasn't raised with some idealistic concept of a world in some ever-lasting peace.

  56. #256

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    Yes ralph, I know, you figure we should send in the re-landscaping crew ASAP.

    ISIS urges jihadists to attack Canadians: ‘You will not feel secure in your bedrooms’ | National Post

    http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/09...?__federated=1

  57. #257

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    ISIS urges jihadists to attack Canadians: ‘You will not feel secure in your bedrooms’ | National Post

    http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/09...?__federated=1

    ZZZzzzzzz....

  58. #258

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    ISIS urges jihadists to attack Canadians: ‘You will not feel secure in your bedrooms’ | National Post

    http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/09...?__federated=1

    ZZZzzzzzz....
    Yeah, and I saw a 60 Minutes episode on ISIS with the usual mystery witness to the atrocities and it reminded me of the Kuwaiti babies-tossed-on-the-floor-to-die incubator" story. "Incubator" was so apropos it may have been freudian.

    To Sell A War - Gulf War Propaganda (1992)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaR1YBR5g6U


    A victim of ISIS’ brutality cries out for her mother - Videos - CBS News
    http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/a-vict...or-her-mother/

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    KC,
    To clarify my thought process, I don't want to send in the re-landscaping crew.
    I don't want to send in Canadaian troops.
    My philosophy is that we shouldn't do anything part way. If the situation is bad enough to send in our kids to fight, then we should bomb them to **** first.
    If the situation doesn't justify bombing them back to the dark ages, then it doesn't justify sending in our kids. (I say this as a father of three young adult men)
    That's it. We either go all out, or don't bother. I disagree completely with part measures, one Canadian soldier's life is worth more to me than 10,000 "innocent" bystanders.

  60. #260

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    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    On the weekend I was watching a show about cults, and how impressionable young people joined many of them over the decades.

    After seeing so many examples of teens joining cults in the past, I don't think it's weird that some teenagers believe that they have found their "calling" in the world from the rantings of someone very passionate about a cause.

  61. #261

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    On the weekend I was watching a show about cults, and how impressionable young people joined many of them over the decades.

    After seeing so many examples of teens joining cults in the past, I don't think it's weird that some teenagers believe that they have found their "calling" in the world from the rantings of someone very passionate about a cause.
    A lack of independent thought.

    However, we all tend to do that as we stick to our dogmatic unshakable beliefs.

  62. #262

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    Quote Originally Posted by ralph60 View Post
    KC,
    To clarify my thought process, I don't want to send in the re-landscaping crew.
    I don't want to send in Canadaian troops.
    My philosophy is that we shouldn't do anything part way. If the situation is bad enough to send in our kids to fight, then we should bomb them to **** first.
    If the situation doesn't justify bombing them back to the dark ages, then it doesn't justify sending in our kids. (I say this as a father of three young adult men)
    That's it. We either go all out, or don't bother. I disagree completely with part measures, one Canadian soldier's life is worth more to me than 10,000 "innocent" bystanders.
    "one Canadian soldier's life is worth more to me than 10,000 "innocent" bystanders"

    Yes, I know that (one Canadian, or some magical number, or select persons) is reality - always has been and probably always will be.

    Funny how we can give ourselves a name and some arbitrary definition (Canadians, Americans, Russians, capitalists, socialists, communists, democratists, christians, muslims, hindus, blue eyed, brown eyed, white skinned, black skinned and on, and on, and on...) and make the murder of innocent bystanders (such as little children and babies, killed directly or indirectly) quite ok.

  63. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    On the weekend I was watching a show about cults, and how impressionable young people joined many of them over the decades.

    After seeing so many examples of teens joining cults in the past, I don't think it's weird that some teenagers believe that they have found their "calling" in the world from the rantings of someone very passionate about a cause.
    A lack of independent thought.

    However, we all tend to do that as we stick to our dogmatic unshakable beliefs.
    maybe we all do tend to do that as we stick to our dogmatic unshakable beliefs.

    but we don't all tend to fly half way across the world hoping for the "opportunity" to hack off someone else's head as part of our own personal dogmatic unshakable beliefs...

    actually, not many of us would have any interest or inclination whatsoever to hack off someone else's head as part of our own personal dogmatic unshakable beliefs even without flying half way across the world.
    Last edited by kcantor; 30-09-2014 at 02:55 PM.
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    ^

    that piece of crap has been circulating for at least the better part of a decade.

    it doesn't deserve to be "shared" even if it sharing it comes with a disclaimer of non-support or endorsement.

    hint - clinton's presidency ended 8 months before osama bin laden's 9/11 attack.

    hint - those "$100,000,000 each tomahawk missiles" actually cost about $1,400,000 today and cost about $840,000 each in 2001.

    are there some kernels of truth buried amongst that crap? maybe. but even so, they're there only to create an illusion of truth for a fabric woven from hatred.
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    First of all KC, being Canadian is not the result of somebody giving an arbitrary definition and your conflating nationality with race or skin color is pure B.S. but I think you're probably incapable of realizing that.
    We are not, nor ever have been murdering babies, but if they are caught in the crossfire they are unfortunate victims of war. The blame for their death clearly lies with the murdering terrorists who are trying to impose their belief system on people who have every right to their own faith.
    There is no moral equivalence and no morality to what ISIS, or any of the other assorted groups of murderers are doing. They don't consider the killing of their child victims murder, they consider them legitimate targets of a religious war.
    If all of the people around them are innocent, then they need to rise up and get rid of ISIS themselves. If they can't or won't, then too bad for them if some of their people get killed while we clean up their mess, but I see no reason to sacrifice a single Canadian.

  66. #266

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    Our allies, the Saudis. behead may people every year, often in public. Somehow, this gets a minor tut-tut from diplomatic circles while basically giving tact approval. What's the big deal? We're just deciding that some beheadings are good or at least acceptable and others are bad.

    According to Amnesty, there has been a surge in executions in Saudi Arabia since the end of Ramadan on July 28, with 22 executions taking place between August 4 and August 22, compared to 17 executions between January and July this year.
    Amnesty International said called on the Kingdom to halt all executions after four members of the same family were beheaded for “receiving drugs”.
    Said Boumedouha, Deputy Director of Amnesty International’s Middle East and North Africa Program, said the execution of people accused of petty crimes and on the basis of confessions extracted through torture had become shamefully common in Saudi Arabia.

    http://www.news.com.au/world/middle-...-1227037172765
    ISIS has just taken to putting the videos on the web, essentially making the executions public but with a larger audience.

    Oh right, the Saudis have oil. ISIS has some but we don't want them to.

    I don't recall ISIS locking young girls in a burning building because they didn't have proper head coverings.

    Friday, 15 March, 2002, 12:19 GMT
    Saudi police 'stopped' fire rescue

    Saudi Arabia's religious police stopped schoolgirls from leaving a blazing building because they were not wearing correct Islamic dress, according to Saudi newspapers.
    In a rare criticism of the kingdom's powerful "mutaween" police, the Saudi media has accused them of hindering attempts to save 15 girls who died in the fire on Monday.

    About 800 pupils were inside the school in the holy city of Mecca when the tragedy occurred

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/1874471.stm
    But we're selling billions of dollars of military equipment to the Saudis.

    A multibillion-dollar deal to sell made-in-Canada light-armoured vehicles to Saudi Arabia is being championed by Ottawa as a major success for Canadian diplomacy.

    But the Official Opposition NDP is raising concerns about arms sales to a country with a poor human rights record.

    The deal would see General Dynamics Land Systems Canada, the London, Ont.-based arm of a U.S. defence and aerospace contractor, supply Saudi Arabia. It’s worth $10-billion over 14 years and will sustain more than 3,000 jobs annually in Canada.

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle16897175/

    Last edited by kkozoriz; 30-09-2014 at 09:55 PM.

  67. #267

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    We're just deciding that some beheadings are good or at least acceptable and others are bad.
    I never decided that.

  68. #268

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    We're just deciding that some beheadings are good or at least acceptable and others are bad.
    That is a political minefield. Acceptable among friends who have and need oil. Politics makes interesting bedfellows and there are countless examples where a war crime to one is just a regular day at the office, such as using missiles on drones that are being remotely flow by some desk jockey in a military base in Kentucky. Many innocents are killed "accidentally" and their death is no different than a beheading.

    Movie quote from 1994 that eerily parrallels what we see today
    http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/True_Lies
    You have murdered our women, and our children, and bombed our cities from afar, like cowards, and you dare to call us terrorists?
    After 9/11, if you followed the money and many of the sources of the terrorists, they should have bombed Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan instead of Iraq and Afghanistan.
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  69. #269

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    Nah, we wouldn't do that.



    Compare the number of civilian casualties caused by terrorism with those caused by the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan as well as "whoopsie" moments caused by drone attacks in Pakistan, Yemen, etc. The west is much more efficient at killing civilians than the terrorist groups are.

  70. #270

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    British hostage Alan Henning purportedly beheaded by ISIS.

    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/Briti...095/story.html
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    The Liberals are opposed to Canada joining the fight against ISIS.
    http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/canad...oops-1.2037316
    No surprise they would pander to radical terrorists, after all, what are a few headless children and journalists compared to a growing bloc of potential Liberal voters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ralph60 View Post
    The Liberals are opposed to Canada joining the fight against ISIS.
    http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/canad...oops-1.2037316
    No surprise they would pander to radical terrorists, after all, what are a few headless children and journalists compared to a growing bloc of potential Liberal voters.
    Harper best get to invading the Congo and every other hellhole that has war crimes being committed in it I guess. Wouldn't want him pandering to terrorists there either, right?

  73. #273

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    Agreed Marcel

    I was watching this whole affair last week on CBC and across the bottom of the screen the reported that 700 people were presumed drown after two boats from North Africa sank off the coast of Italy. There were no news stories that half a Titanic disaster happened but they talked endlessly about Rob Ford and other minor stories.

    News is now a form of entertainment to sell products during commercials. It is not a method of communicating the most important stories.
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    I just want to be clear, though, that I don't necessarily oppose Canada's involvement in the Middle East and targeting ISIS. I just have a problem with labeling it as some sort of proper moral stance. Geopolitics and morality unfortunately don't exist on the same plane (pun intended?). Our relationship with the US and the European countries involved in this requires us to offer support, even if we aren't able to offer much other than half a dozen 30 year old planes. But don't try to tell me we're doing it because it's the "right" thing to do, when 5 million+ people have been killed in the DRC over the past 20 years, many in incredibly horrific ways that ISIS hasn't yet thought of, and the vast majority of people don't know a thing about it.

    This kind of sums it up for me: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/look-ar...city-1.2781883

  75. #275

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    The reaction within Israel to the Holocaust survivors opposition to the war in Gaza.

    David Cohen: Those aren’t Holocaust survivors those are probably collaborators with the Nazis.

    Shmulik Halphon: He’s invited to go back to Auschwitz.

    Itzik Levy: These are survivors who were Kapos. Leftist traitors. That’s why they live abroad and not in the Jewish State.

    Vitali Guttman: Enough, they should die already. They survived the Holocaust only to do another Holocaust to Israel in global public opinion?

    Meir Dahan: No wonder Hitler murdered 6 million Jews because of people like you you’re not even Jews you’re disgusting people a disgrace to humanity and so are your offspring you are trash.

    Asher Solomon: It’s a shame Hitler didn’t finish the job.

    Katy Morali: Holocaust survivors who think like this are invited to go die in the gas chambers.

    Yafa Ashraf: ****** Ashkenazis you are the Nazis.

    http://972mag.com/nstt_feeditem/isra...otective-edge/

  76. #276

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    Where's the outrage or even the coverage? Oh right, the media doesn't cover wrongdoing unless it's the Palestinians.

    Red Cross Volunteers: We Witnessed Israeli Soldiers Execute Palestinian Civilians In Cold Blood

    Dan Cohen and I conducted an interview with two ICRC volunteers from Gaza, 25-year-old Ahmed Awad, and 24-year-old Ala’a Alkusofi, who worked with ambulance crews throughout the war, the video of which will be released in the near future. They recalled entering Khuza’a during the siege of the town to collect the body of Mohamed Abadla, a local man who had been tied to a tree by both arms and riddled with bullets. When they arrived at the execution site, a group of Israeli soldiers ordered one of the volunteers’ colleagues to exit the ambulance, walk five meters forward, then light a cigarette lighter. When he did so, they shot him in the heart and leg, killing him in front of his colleagues.

    http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/09...-palestinians/


    Ivan Karakashian, Advocacy Unit Coordinator at Defense for Children International
    “16 yr old boy stripped naked and used as human shield by Israel for 5 days. He was denied food, water and sleep – and mentally and physically abused, including lashed with a wire across his back. Israeli army stopped a family car near a West Bank protest over Gaza. Positioned their weapons in the windows of back doors, where toddlers were sitting and began to fire on protest. This is not an isolated incident. There is a clear, recorded pattern of Israel using Palestinian children as human shields during attacks on Gaza.”

    http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/09...ak-your-heart/
    Last edited by kkozoriz; 04-10-2014 at 11:33 PM.

  77. #277

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    And more from one of our allies..

    Saudi Businesswoman Condemned To Prison & 50 Lashes For Insulting Morality Police

    A Saudi Arabian judge has upheld a barbaric sentence against a business woman for exercising free speech. Her crime, as reported by The Arabic-Language Daily, was “cursing the morality police” and calling them “liars”. Her punishment is one month in prison and 50 lashes. The sentence was officially passed by a district court in Jeddah and has now been upheld by an appeals court in Mecca.

    http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/08...rality-police/

  78. #278

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    Nary a peep from the so called "civilized world".

    State Funded Israeli Rabbi Calls For Ethnic Cleansing of Palestinians

    Israeli Rabbi Dov Lior, heads the Council of Rabbis of Judea and Samaria, serves as the Chief Rabbi of Hebron and Kiryat Arba in the southern West Bank and is the rosh yeshiva Kiryat Arba Hesder Yeshiva. Lior is a popular hardliner known for his extremist ideology. He recently reasserted that Israel should strive to “cleanse” the occupied territories of all Arab inhabitants. The Rabbi even called President Barak Obama a “Kushi,” which is Israel’s equivalent to nig*er. Lior perpetuates a Jewish extremist ideology, which is principally equivocal to that of the Islamic State.

    ---

    The American born Jewish terrorist Baruch Goldstein—who massacred 29 Palestinian worshipers at the Cave of the Patriarchs—also met with Rabbi Dov Lior before he massacred innocent Muslims while praying. Even after the massacre, Lior described Goldstein as “holier than all the martyrs of the Holocaust.”

    http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/10...-palestinians/

  79. #279

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    As always, the weapons merchants are the ones making out like bandits wile we basically end up fighting ourselves.

    ISIS’ Ammunition Is Shown to Have Origins in U.S. and China

    In its campaign across northern Syria and Iraq, the jihadist group Islamic State has been using ammunition from the United States and other countries that have been supporting the regional security forces fighting the group, according to new field data gathered by a private arms-tracking organization.

    The data, part of a larger sample of captured arms and cartridges in Syria and Iraq, carries an implicit warning for policy makers and advocates of intervention.

    It suggests that ammunition transferred into Syria and Iraq to help stabilize governments has instead passed from the governments to the jihadists, helping to fuel the Islamic State’s rise and persistent combat power. Rifle cartridges from the United States, the sample shows, have played a significant role.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/06/wo...hina.html?_r=0

  80. #280

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    ^ It's always fun to play follow the money. For example, a really quick search for the largest ammunition manufacturer in the US leads to ATK, which is owned by Honeywell who's CEO is David M. Cote who also just happens to be on Obamas debt panel. You can play this game all day long.

  81. #281

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    Such a Christian attitude. This is the type of people that G.W.Bush was talking to when he called the war on Terror "A Crusade"". Of course, he promptly got distracted by the oil fields of Iraq so he just tied them together and carried on like there was noting wrong.

    This is a new kind of — a new kind of evil. And we understand. And the American people are beginning to understand. This crusade, this war on terrorism is going to take a while. And the American people must be patient. I'm going to be patient. But I can assure the American people I am determined, I'm not going to be distracted, I will keep my focus to make sure that not only are these brought to justice, but anybody who's been associated will be brought to justice.
    Recently, Charisma magazine, a major media outlet for evangelical and Pentecostal Christians, published an open call to genocide. The article in question, titled “Why I Am Absolutely Islamaphobic” [sic] and written by Gary Cass, begins with the premise that “every true follower of Mohammed” wants to “subjugate and murder” non-Muslims, and therefore it’s impossible for Christians to live together peacefully with them.

    Cass proposes three solutions to this problem. One is for Muslims to undergo mass conversion to Christianity; the other is mass deportation combined with eugenics – either “force them all to get sterilized” or kick them out of America “like Spain was forced to do when they deported the Muslim Moors.” But he says both of these plans are unlikely to work, so “really there’s only one” solution, which is:

    Violence: The only thing that is biblical and that 1,400 years of history has shown to work is overwhelming Christian just war and overwhelming self defense.

    Notice Cass’ statement that war has been “shown to work” by “1,400 years of history.” The only thing he could be referring to is the Crusades (presumbly beginning with the Spanish Reconquista, around 700 AD), which often entailed the massacre of civilians in captured areas. Most of us know the Crusades as a bloody and barbaric era in our history and think that a repeat is something to be avoided at all costs, but Cass is openly cheering the idea.

    http://www.salon.com/2014/10/07/why_...ocide_partner/
    Last edited by kkozoriz; 07-10-2014 at 04:37 PM.

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    The Americans must be incredibly stupid. They spent between $750 billion to $1.1 trillion on the Iraq war between 2003-2010.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financi...f_the_Iraq_War
    All to secure 341,000 barrels of crude per day, or 5.4% of their imports. (less than Syncrudes production) http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move...N_mbblpd_a.htm
    Or maybe, just maybe it isn't the Americans who are stupid, but those who would automatically assign a motive to the American's actions without giving it a second of independent thought.

  83. #283

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    Quote Originally Posted by ralph60 View Post
    The Americans must be incredibly stupid. They spent between $750 billion to $1.1 trillion on the Iraq war between 2003-2010.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financi...f_the_Iraq_War
    All to secure 341,000 barrels of crude per day, or 5.4% of their imports. (less than Syncrudes production) http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move...N_mbblpd_a.htm
    Or maybe, just maybe it isn't the Americans who are stupid, but those who would automatically assign a motive to the American's actions without giving it a second of independent thought.
    No not to secure 341,000 barrels... they got that, and the 750 Billion, by "they" I mean defense contractors.

    For example:

    http://www.ibtimes.com/winner-most-i...decade-1135905

    But yes, the people that blindly follow and even vote for this crap don't seem to be getting any more intelligent... Gotta get them Terrorists right?

  84. #284

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    Beheadings are perfectly acceptable as long as they're done by our allies (at least the ones with oil.)

    Since January of this year, 59 people have been beheaded in Saudi Arabia under the country's antiquated legal system based primarily around sharia law.

    Last month saw Saudi Arabia behead at least 8 people — twice the number of Western hostages who have so far featured in IS's barbaric execution videos. In August those executed by Riyadh were sentenced to death for crimes such as apostasy, adultery and "sorcery." In one case, four members of the same family were executed for "receiving large quantities of hashish," a sentence imposed, according to Amnesty International, on the basis of "forced confessions extracted through torture."

    https://news.vice.com/article/saudi-...lking-about-it
    Nothing to see here. Move along.

  85. #285

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    Funny how it's always someone else's fault when these things return to bite America (and the west) on the butt.

    An investigative report released by the New York Times on Wednesday noted numerous instances in which American troops encountered chemical weapons. Far from the “Weapons of Mass Destruction” President George W. Bush used to justify the invasion of Iraq, these were “filthy, rusty, or corroded” relics of the Iran-Iraq War of the 1980s. Still, the U.S. military personnel failed to properly report these encounters on several occasions, and neglected to properly dispose of them, leaving behind the dangerous — though aging — caches of chemicals.
    “The Iraqi troops who stood at that entrance are no longer there,” the Times’ C.J. Chivers wrote of a bunker containing cyanide precursors and sarin rockets. “The compound, never entombed, is now controlled by the Islamic State” or ISIS, as the militant group is often called.
    The irony is that the chemical weapons were made, in large part, by American companies –- but that’s the case with a lot of arms that land in enemy hands.
    The U.S. sold $66.3 billion in weapons last year –- more than three-fourths of the entire global arms market. As a comparison, Russia clocked in as number two on the list of top sellers with $4.8 billion in arms deals.

    http://thinkprogress.org/world/2014/...ca-arms-sales/

  86. #286
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  87. #287

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    Well, that's one way to boost the old bottom line for weapons manufactures, arm both sides.

    Islamic State in Iraq and Syria (ISIS) fighters intercepted a cache of weapons dropped by a U.S.-led coalition against the terrorist group, the Associated Press reported.

    The roughly two-minute video shows a masked man armed with a rifle going through boxes of hand grenades, rocket-propelled grenade launchers and ammunition, the AP reported.
    The cache was part of Monday’s air drop that aimed to provide weapons and supplies to Kurdish militia members fighting ISIS in the town of Kobani on the Syrian border, the AP said.

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/claudiakoern...-into-militant

  88. #288

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    This is Netanyahu's base. They have a blanket waiver that allows them to avoid the mandatory military service that all other Israeli's have do. They're quite willing to send other people's kids into battle. It it had even palestinians that did this the news would be calling them terrorists but since they're Israeli they're simply disgruntled.

    JERUSALEM (AP) — Dozens of ultra-Orthodox Jews hurled stones and slashed the tires of buses bearing ads promoting female worship at a key Jerusalem holy site, Israeli police said Tuesday.

    The attack, which happened on Monday night in Jerusalem's ultra-Orthodox Mea Shearim neighborhood, underscores the still simmering tensions in Israel over religious extremists who want to separate the sexes in public spaces.

    http://news.yahoo.com/ultra-orthodox...094612221.html

  89. #289
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    Slashing a tire is not in any way similar to strapping explosives on yourself and blowing up families and yourself. That's plain NUTS.

  90. #290
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    I still believe in good and evil and when I see these nuts cutting heads off of innocent people for the internet cam I know I'm on the right side. The good side. Our side.
    Last edited by Drumbones; 22-10-2014 at 04:17 AM.

  91. #291

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    You mean like our good friends the Saudis who chop off the heads of people convicted of sorcery?

    The Israeli's were throwing stones. If you're a Palestinian who does the same thing, you get shot. And the protesters were objecting to equal rights for women. Sound familiar? The Ultra orthodox on both sides have more in common than they're willing to admit. But, we're friends with one side and encourage the bombing of the other.

  92. #292
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    meanwhile on Parliament Hill...

  93. #293

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    You mean like our good friends the Saudis who chop off the heads of people convicted of sorcery?
    Why do you keep bringing that up? Nobody here is defending Saudi Arabia.

    Also, Saudi Arabia isn't mouthing off and publicly threatening us like those Islamic militant groups are. We don't need to attack the Saudis for our security.

  94. #294

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    Where is the condemnation of the Saudis when they behead people for such nonsense as sorcery? Nary a peep out of our government and yet when ISIS does it, it's a crime against humanity. Why is it considered not worthy of comment when someone that is considered an ally does it for the most ridiculous of reasons? Same with adultery. Or apostasy? Is changing your religion considered worthy of death? Why do allies get a pass when doing the same thing as terrorists?

    Not vocally supporting it isn't the same as opposing it.

    And where do you think most of the funding for those groups is coming from? Spain?
    Last edited by kkozoriz; 22-10-2014 at 01:39 PM.

  95. #295

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    A small but steady flow of money to ISIS from rich individuals in the Gulf continues, say current and former U.S. officials, with Qataris the biggest suppliers. These rich individuals have long served as "angel investors," as one expert put it, for the most violent militants in the region, providing the “seed money” that helped launch ISIS and other jihadi groups.

    No one in the U.S. government is putting a number on the current rate of donations, but former U.S. Navy Admiral and NATO Supreme Commander James Stavridis says the cash flow from private donors is significant now and was even more significant in the early fund-raising done by ISIS and al Qaeda’s affiliate in Syria, the al-Nusrah Front.

    "These rich Arabs are like what 'angel investors' are to tech start-ups, except they are interested in starting up groups who want to stir up hatred," said Stavridis, now the dean of the Fletcher School of Diplomacy at Tufts University. "Groups like al-Nusrah and ISIS are better investments for them. The individuals act as high rollers early, providing seed money. Once the groups are on their feet, they are perfectly capable of raising funds through other means, like kidnapping, oil smuggling, selling women into slavery, etc."

    Stavridis and other current U.S. officials suggest that the biggest share of the individual donations supporting ISIS and the most radical groups comes from Qatar rather than Saudi Arabia, and that the Qatari government has done less to stop the flow than its neighbors in Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates. One U.S. official said the Saudis are "more in line with U.S. foreign policy" than the Qataris.
    http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isi...ls-say-n208006


    RELATIVE IMPORTANCE OF SAUDI FUNDING
    Although Saudi donors and other private contributors were believed to be the most significant funding source for the original forerunner to ISIS, the importance of such donations has been marginalized by the group's independent sources of income. This income, which is now estimated to overwhelmingly exceed private donations, is generated by activities such as smuggling (of oil, weapons, antiquities), extortion (e.g., the group levies around $8 million per month in "taxes" on local businesses), and other crimes (e.g., robberies, counterfeiting). The group's June 11 seizure of Mosul's central bank alone netted tens of millions of dollars (though U.S. officials note that the $400 million figure often cited in connection with the heist is not accurate).
    http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/p...unding-of-isis
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 22-10-2014 at 02:18 PM.
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  96. #296

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    Think of them as terrorist venture capitalists, helping groups get a foot up to being self supporting.

    One of the two London butchers, Nigerian-born Michael Adebolajo, was radicalized by the cleric Abu Hamza al-Masri, who headed the outlawed terrorist group Al-Muhajiroun.

    The group follows Wahhabist teachings and advocates unifying all Muslims, forcibly if necessary, under a single fundamentalist theocratic government.

    Similarly, the Boston bombers, Tamerlan and Dzokhar Tsarnaev, hailed from Russia’s southern predominantly Muslim province of Chechnya. Starting in the late 1980s, Saudi Arabia began dispatching Wahhabist clerics and radical preachers to Chechnya.

    The spread of Wahhabism sparked not only a separatist war against the Russians, but also a good deal of violence among Muslims.

    Wahhabism is now institutionalized in Chechnya and is particularly attractive to young men.

    There are similar strands leading back to Wahhabist indoctrination in the histories of very many of the known Muslim terrorists of the last 20 years.

    The founder of the sect, Muhammad ibn abd al-Wahhab, was an eighteenth century Muslim zealot allied to the Al-Saud clan who promoted an extreme version of Salafism.

    Salaf is the Arab word meaning pious ancestor and refers to those who attempt to emulate the pure Islamic life of the Prophet Muhammad and his generation of followers.

    But Wahhab and his modern disciples take this notion to extremes. The list of people whom Wahhabists should consider their enemies includes not only Christians, Jews, Hindus and atheists, but also Shiite, Sufi and Sunni Muslims.

    And yet no western politicians seem prepared to accept the obvious.

    The chances of disaffected young men being drawn into the evil web of Wahhabist murderous extremism would be significantly decreased if the Saudi funding was blocked.

    The Saudis began exporting Wahhabism in the early 1970s when the country’s oil wealth began growing at an ever-increasing rate.

    The amount the Saudi royal family, both by government donations and the generosity of individual princes, now lavishes on Wahhabist schools, colleges, mosques, Islamic centres and the missionary work of fundamentalist imams around the world is extraordinary.

    In 2003, a United States Senate committee on terrorism heard testimony that in the previous 20 years Saudi Arabia had spent $87 billion on promoting Wahhabism worldwide.

    This included financing 210 Islamic centres, 1,500 mosques, 202 colleges and 2,000 madrassas (religious schools).

    Various estimates put the amount the Saudi government spends on these missionary institutions as up to $3 billion a year.

    This money smothers the voices of moderate Muslims and the poison flows into every Muslim community worldwide.

    http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle35303.htm

  97. #297
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    Saying that execution of a person deemed a criminal in the courts of their own country is the same as grabbing an innocent worker from abroad and executing them for no reason is irresponsible in itself.

  98. #298

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    Saying that execution of a person deemed a criminal in the courts of their own country is the same as grabbing an innocent worker from abroad and executing them for no reason is irresponsible in itself.
    Their court is their leader who professes to be following the judgement of their religion.

  99. #299

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    Saying that execution of a person deemed a criminal in the courts of their own country is the same as grabbing an innocent worker from abroad and executing them for no reason is irresponsible in itself.
    So, beheading someone for sorcery is OK with you? What about when they locked the doors of a girls school and wouldn't let the students out of a burning building because they didn't have their heads covered? OK too? What about allowing a female university student to die because they didn't want her seen by male paramedics? Guess that's OK too then.

    One staff member who witnessed the situation said paramedics were not called immediately. She said they were also not given immediate permission to enter the campus and that it appeared that the female dean of the university and the female dean of the college of social studies panicked. The staff member spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of retribution from university management.
    http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News...es-uproar.html

    I guess if ISIS were the government, like the Taliban were, then you'd be OK with it then. Good to know.

  100. #300
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    Still it's their laws and their business. Beheading innocent reporters and workers from abroad is different. If you do not see a difference .... well, let's just say I am disappointed with your views.

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