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Thread: State of the world, state sponsored terror, terror and war in general

  1. #1601

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Hinderks View Post
    KC:
    Staying out of business with those countries might have been nice but everyone likes to make a living and so trade is a natural cross border activity. i.e. we now deal with a still fairly brutal communist dictatorship running China.
    Good example...we do a tremendous amount of business with China...other than diplomatically complaining we don't seem to be forcing democracy (or many other things) down their throat against their will.

    But on this thread some are demanding we force Saudi Arabia to change or not do business with them.

    Moreover, if a country or region is involved with trade and there are capitalistic ownership interests, the west gets involved.
    So if we want to trade with them, to access their resources we necessarily get involved and conflict with their societal beliefs.
    At the demand of others not involved hmmm...is that right?
    Yeah - Syria is a great example. While the US directly and aggressively helped Libya, it initially didn't do as near as much in Syria but there were a lot of calls for the US to step up and 'deal with Assad'. Often by those that critiqued it for being in Afghanistan and Iraq. (Seeing moral lines in the sand I suppose.) Anyway, I think Russia basically said; Back off! So in Libya and Syria there is very little difference in the final outcomes. Brief destruction vs long term destruction and no matter what, a society ready to do it all over again. In the end, nothing much helps in the middle east.

    Also, just as in the middle east and in other primitive cultures, one's honour, or one's country's honour is always at stake. That's why Trump gets tons of support in proclaiming to make the US great again through a massive military buildup and not being 'pushed around'. Sanders position however gets ignored. So in the end you see that primitive and modern societies suffer from a need to convey strength, determination, confidence and all that crap that we expect of people in job interviews or you name it. so primitive or modern societies alike, we all idolize declarations of certainty of purpose, ideology, etc.


    In then end, 'attack if we must'. But "must" can never really ever be defined. I bet if you looked at the similar military statements of every other country on earth - they'd all read somewhat the same. As below - post 911 invasion was ok - even the UN said it was. Terrorists by birth or residence originating from Saudi Arabia attack and that is justification for invading another country altogether - Afghanistan - to go after the leadership - but then the leadership was eventually found in - Pakistan. Honour killings describes things well. Just as the jealous boyfriend kills his ex... it happens here and we call it temporary insanity. It happens in India and we call it "honour killing".

    Then there was Franz Ferdinand.


    “We live in a difficult and dangerous world, and there are no easy or magical solutions. As President and Commander-in-Chief, I will defend this nation, its people, and America’s vital strategic interests, but I will do it responsibly. America must defend freedom at home and abroad, but we must seek diplomatic solutions before resorting to military action. While force must always be an option, war must be a last resort, not the first option.

    As a member of Congress, I have supported the use of force only when it was a last resort and America’s vital interests were at stake. I opposed the first Gulf War, as did many other Members of Congress, because I believed that there was a way to achieve our goals without bloodshed, through sanctions and concerted diplomatic action. I supported the use of force to stop the ethnic cleansing in the Balkans. And, in the wake of the attacks on September 11, 2001, I supported the use of force in Afghanistan to hunt down the terrorists who attacked us. I regret that President Bush did not use that authority properly, and that American combat troops remained there too long. I voted against the war in Iraq, and knew it was the right vote then, and most people recognize it was the right vote today. The only mission President Bush and his neo-conservative friends accomplished was to destabilize an entire region, and create the environment for al-Qaeda and ISIS to flourish.

    While we must be relentless in combating terrorists who would do us harm, we cannot and should not be policeman of the world, nor bear the burden of fighting terrorism alone. The United States should be part of an international coalition, led and sustained by nations in the region that have the means to protect themselves. That is the only way to defeat ISIS and to begin the process of creating the conditions for a lasting peace in the region.”
    – Sen. Bernie Sanders

    https://berniesanders.com/issues/war-and-peace/
    Last edited by KC; 02-03-2016 at 01:30 PM.

  2. #1602

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    Milton Glaser's Number 8 !!!


    8
    DOUBT IS BETTER THAN CERTAINTY.
    Everyone always talks about confidence in believing what you do. I remember once going to a class in yoga where the teacher said that, spirituality speaking, if you believed that you had achieved enlightenment you have merely arrived at your limitation. I think that is also true in a practical sense. Deeply held beliefs of any kind prevent you from being open to experience, which is why I find all firmly held ideological positions questionable. It makes me nervous when someone believes too deeply or too much. I think that being skeptical and questioning all deeply held beliefs is essential. Of course we must know the difference between skepticism and cynicism because cynicism is as much a restriction of one's openness to the world as passionate belief is. They are sort of twins. And then in a very real way, solving any problem is more important than being right. There is a significant sense of self-righteousness in both the art and design world. Perhaps it begins at school. Art school often begins with the Ayn Rand model of the single personality resisting the ideas of the surrounding culture. The theory of the avant garde is that as an individual you can transform the world, which is true up to a point. One of the signs of a damaged ego is absolute certainty.Schools encourage the idea of not compromising and defending your work at all costs. Well, the issue at work is usually all about the nature of compromise. You just have to know what to compromise. Blind pursuit of your own ends which excludes the possibility that others may be right does not allow for the fact that in design we are always dealing with a triad – the client, the audience and you. Ideally, making everyone win through acts of accommodation is desirable. But self-righteousness is often the enemy. Self-righteousness and narcissism generally come out of some sort of childhood trauma, which we do not have to go into. It is a consistently difficult thing in human affairs. Some years ago I read a most remarkable thing about love, that also applies to the nature of co-existing with others. It was a quotation from Iris Murdoch in her obituary. It read ' Love is the extremely difficult realization that something other than oneself is real.' Isn't that fantastic! The best insight on the subject of love that one can imagine.


    http://www.miltonglaser.com/milton/c:essays/#4

  3. #1603

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    Stopping trade in military hardware would be a good start Thomas. Or are we OK with just selling arms and equipment and then looking the other way when they're used against civilians or to further an agenda we oppose and/or find repugnant? If Saudi Arabia is OK to receive military equipment from us, how about North Korea?

    Or is it because we buy oil from the Saudis and the North Koreans have noting we value? Does the dollar trump all?

    When a country shows signs of improving their human rights record, we should applaud them. However, the form that that government takes should be up to them as long as it's not dictatorial. But, apparently, China is just too big a market and too good a source of cheap labour so we're willing to overlook the fact that it's basically a dictatorship, regardless of their "elections".

    Money > rights.

  4. #1604

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    It's always been about money. In WWII Russia traded with Germany right up to the night the Germans invaded. (The night of the last train load.) It was all about the money to the Russians. Here the Russians clearly had a country that opposed their views of human rights (socialism) but they still actively pursued monetary gain.

  5. #1605

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    Stopping trade in military hardware would be a good start Thomas. Or are we OK with just selling arms and equipment and then looking the other way when they're used against civilians or to further an agenda we oppose and/or find repugnant?
    Frankly that's a loaded political question...if it something we have chosen to oppose it is a political decision.

    If it something that "we" find repugnant do we have a right to interfere because we have a different value system?

    Who defines repugnant? What makes "us" better more knowledgeable?

    What makes "us" more righteous than another country/culture?

    Does the dollar trump all?
    What makes "us" so righteous that we trump all?

    There are many things in the world that I find wrong, repugnant, immoral and within Canada I have the right to support their elimination through our constitution and laws.

    What gives me the right to imposes my views on another culture in another country?

    However, the form that that government takes should be up to them as long as it's not dictatorial.
    Again what gives us that right if the "people" of the country wish it?
    Cuba as an example where Castro was revered.

    Do we really think we are superior morally and ethically than other cultures/countries?

    Interesting

  6. #1606

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    Here's a more recent example. Morally repugnant but they are still doing it - for the profits of course.


    JAN 5, 2015

    Russia Is Still Ukraine's Largest Trading Partner

    Russia and Ukraine have essentially been fighting an undeclared war for most of the past year: thousands of people have been killed and hundreds of thousands displaced as Russia-backed separatists (aided in numerous instances by active-duty Russian soldiers) have fought against the central government. It’s been a total disaster, and is probably the closest thing to a full-scale interstate war that Europe has seen since the dark days of the 1940′s.

    ...

    Given the fact that they’re shooting at each another, however, and given what the Ukrainian government has said about its desire to economically sanction Russia, it might be somewhat surprising to learn that Russia is still Ukraine’s single largest trading partner. No that isn’t a typo, it’s based on data from...


    http://www.forbes.com/sites/markadom.../#1f33970b106e
    Last edited by KC; 03-03-2016 at 04:30 PM.

  7. #1607
    highlander
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    ^^ It's not about us trumping anything.

    It's about our avowed values actually being reflected in our actions, and actually being willing to sacrifice a little for them. We just have to hold OURSELVES to that higher standard.

    It's not interfering to stop selling weapons to despots. It's interfering when we deliberately facilitate the sale.

  8. #1608

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    It's about our avowed values actually being reflected in our actions, and actually being willing to sacrifice a little for them. We just have to hold OURSELVES to that higher standard.
    I don't disagree but that doesn't answer the base question..what gives us the "right"?

    While I agree with upholding our avowed values...what "right" do we have to impose them on that other entity?

    An example...Rhodesia now Zimbabwe, the West believed that the system they had was wrong (doesn't matter why for this conversation) but was regulated, well run, people had plenty and a good education system and medical system.

    The world imposed it's views, supported a rebel force that eventually overturned the standing government and the country fell to war and massacre for decades with the loss of many lives infrastructure has fallen apart and its a mess.

    Now...what gave us the right?

    I didn't like their former system, felt it morally wrong...but it worked, was peaceful and orderly.

    The one that replaced it remains, what amounts to a dictatorship and is responsible for the misfortune that has befallen the country.

    Maybe we should have left it alone and let it evolve on its own.

    Something to consider...

  9. #1609
    highlander
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    The "right" comes from being rational creatures responsible for our actions. We don't need any other right, because exercising our right to sell, or not, based on our own standards is not an imposition in any way.

    Think about it this way - would you sell your second-hand gun to a guy who you knew didn't let his wife out of the house and once beat one of his teenage kids so bad he had to be hospitalized, just for "talking back"?

    No?

    Saudi Arabia is that guy.

  10. #1610

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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    The "right" comes from being rational creatures responsible for our actions. We don't need any other right, because exercising our right to sell, or not, based on our own standards is not an imposition in any way.

    Think about it this way - would you sell your second-hand gun to a guy who you knew didn't let his wife out of the house and once beat one of his teenage kids so bad he had to be hospitalized, just for "talking back"?

    No?

    Saudi Arabia is that guy.
    It's not that I don't agree with what you're saying but I disagree with the analogy.

    Think about it this way - would you sell your second-hand gun to a guy who you knew didn't let his wife out of the house and once beat one of his teenage kids so bad he had to be hospitalized, just for "talking back"?
    That is a choice "we" as a person, as a country we can choose not to sell to a country that doesn't fit our values.

    Where it changes is when we feel we have the "right" to impose on them how to govern, what constitutes "fair", freedom of speech etc. Our value system basically.

    In our own country we have the right to uphold it and if that is a decision not to sell...fine. But that is here...not in their country.

    T

  11. #1611
    highlander
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    OK, that's a different argument, and I don't think anyone is advocating invading foreign states to impose democracy or capitalism or whatever here, although it has been practiced by the US with typically poor results.

    That said, intervening in what is effectively an ungoverned country is a different thing, (provided you didn't create the anarchy yourself), as is intervening in an "internal" situation where the they in the "their country" you reference is not all of "them".

    For Example, Saudi Arabia is essentially a few hundred or thousand actual Saudis (the house of Al Saud) governing 50 million Arabians generally for their own benefit.

  12. #1612
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    OK, that's a different argument, and I don't think anyone is advocating invading foreign states to impose democracy or capitalism or whatever here, although it has been practiced by the US with typically poor results.

    That said, intervening in what is effectively an ungoverned country is a different thing, (provided you didn't create the anarchy yourself), as is intervening in an "internal" situation where the they in the "their country" you reference is not all of "them".

    For Example, Saudi Arabia is essentially a few hundred or thousand actual Saudis (the house of Al Saud) governing 50 million Arabians generally for their own benefit.
    i have to agree - things are indeed black and white. until they aren't.

    the difficulty is that things don't go from black to white or from white to black. they evolve between one another in increments sometimes so small as to be indiscernible.

    which makes it difficult - if not impossible - to make black and white decisions and know with certainty whether they are totally right or completely wrong decisions.

    we can only make decisions and take action - individually and as countries - based on the information available at any particular point in time along with an intuition - or a hope - as to which direction the increments (which include our decisions and our actions and our inactions) are accumulating.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  13. #1613

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    A strongly worded letter. That seems to be suficcent punishment for attacking a hospital and shooting the medical personnel and patients as they fled the buildings.

    "According to the Associated Press, more than a dozen U.S. military personnel have been disciplined over mistakes that led to the October bombing of a Doctors Without Borders hospital in Kunduz, Afghanistan. Forty-two people were killed; no criminal charges have been filed.

    The punishments, which have not been publicly announced, are largely administrative. But in some cases the actions, such as letters of reprimand, are tough enough to effectively end chances for further promotion. The military has previously said some personnel were suspended from their duties but has given no further details."

    http://gawker.com/more-than-a-dozen-...d-o-1765389829

  14. #1614

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    OK, that's a different argument, and I don't think anyone is advocating invading foreign states to impose democracy or capitalism or whatever here, although it has been practiced by the US with typically poor results.

    That said, intervening in what is effectively an ungoverned country is a different thing, (provided you didn't create the anarchy yourself), as is intervening in an "internal" situation where the they in the "their country" you reference is not all of "them".

    For Example, Saudi Arabia is essentially a few hundred or thousand actual Saudis (the house of Al Saud) governing 50 million Arabians generally for their own benefit.
    i have to agree - things are indeed black and white. until they aren't.

    the difficulty is that things don't go from black to white or from white to black. they evolve between one another in increments sometimes so small as to be indiscernible.

    which makes it difficult - if not impossible - to make black and white decisions and know with certainty whether they are totally right or completely wrong decisions.

    we can only make decisions and take action - individually and as countries - based on the information available at any particular point in time along with an intuition - or a hope - as to which direction the increments (which include our decisions and our actions and our inactions) are accumulating.

    I believe the house of saud would be approaching 80-90,000 by now.


    I'm back. Totally wrong again.

    It says 15,000 here:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Saud



    I'd read this book ( " Sleeping With the Devil " ) back in 2003/4 or so. He provided a population number. I see that he was forecasting growth from 30k to 60k within a generation.

    Very interesting book - Atlantic's version:


    The Fall of the House of Saud

    Americans have long considered Saudi Arabia the one constant in the Arab Middle East—a source of cheap oil, political stability, and lucrative business relationships. But the country is run by an increasingly dysfunctional royal family that has been funding militant Islamic movements abroad in an attempt to protect itself from them at home. A former CIA operative argues, in an article drawn from his new book, Sleeping With the Devil, that today's Saudi Arabia can't last much longer—and the social and economic fallout of its demise could be calamitous

    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...f-saud/304215/

    ~
    Last edited by KC; 17-03-2016 at 11:55 AM.

  15. #1615

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    It's possibly all about those seeking power and domination through any means and using religious ideology and/or common enemy propaganda to suck in a bunch of followers.

    "they are mortal enemies, despite their common rhetoric. "

    Radical Islamist Terrorism in West Africa

    Al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM) and its affiliates launched an attack in Mali in November 2015, one in Burkina Faso in January, and now in Ivory Coast earlier in March. On March 16, Boko Haram attacked a mosque in Maiduguri, Nigeria, killing at least twenty-two people. The CFR’s Nigeria Security Tracker shows that Boko Haram has been associated with more than 150 deaths since January 1 but before the March 16 mosque attack. Even in Senegal, a genuine democracy where the opposition comes to power through elections, there is concern about signs of radical activity.

    There is no evidence of AQIM and Boko Haram tactical or strategic coordination; indeed, at least in rhetoric, they are mortal enemies, despite their common rhetoric. AQIM, like the broader al-Qaeda of which it is a part, is international in scope and violently hostile to the West. Its leadership appears to be Algerian. Boko Haram is focused on the destruction of the Nigerian state rather than war against the West. It appears to be centered in the Kanuri ethnic group, and while its rhetoric is hostile to the West, it has yet to attack Western facilities or installations.

    http://www.newsweek.com/radical-isla...-africa-439108

  16. #1616

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    Very interesting article.


    The Truth About Muslim 'No-Go Zones' and Ali Gharib | Jewish & Israel News Algemeiner.com

    ...
    Also, in his attempt to smear Emerson, Gharib has discredited himself. He wrote in The Nation about “so-called no-go zones in Europe, purported Muslim enclaves where governments dared not go,” and asserted that “they don’t exist”; the same day, the MailOnline reported that “Austrians fear parts of Vienna are becoming no-go areas after a father was attacked by a ‘Sharia patrol’ when he told them to stop threatening his wife and daughter for not being correctly dressed.”

    That’s by no means all. Evidence for Gharib’s claim that no-go zones “don’t exist” simply doesn’t exist, and the evidence that they do is abundant. Several of the jihad terrorists who murdered 130 people in Paris in November 2015 had come from Molenbeek, an area of Brussels with a high Muslim population. The New York Times reported on November 13, 2015: “Belgium’s home affairs minister said that the government does not ‘have control of the situation in Molenbeek.’”

    There are other no-go zones elsewhere in Europe. Soeren Kern reported in the Gatestone Institute on August 1, 2015: “Spiraling levels of violent crime perpetrated by immigrants from the Middle East and the Balkans are turning parts of Duisburg, a key German industrial city, into ‘areas of lawlessness’ — areas that are becoming de facto ‘no-go’ zones for police, according to a confidential police report that was leaked to the German newsmagazine Der Spiegel.” And in Sweden, according to a Breitbart report on October 27, 2015: “A Swedish journalist attempting to make a movie about the residents of a Swedish no go zone and their habit of throwing stones at police has herself been attacked and had stones thrown at her as she attempted to film. ‘They thought we crossed the limit and that we were standing on their land,’ journalist Valentina Xhaferi told Swedish newspaper Expressen.”

    French no-go zones have been reported about in mainstream publications for over a decade:

    David Ignatius wrote in the Washington Post on April 26, 2002: “Arab gangs regularly vandalize synagogues here, the North African suburbs have become no-go zones at night, and the French continue to shrug their shoulders.” This was reprinted in the New York Times the following day.
    ...

    graphic 20-minute documentary (in French) about the no-go zone in Clichy Montfermeil, a suburb of Paris, can be viewed here. At around the 3-minute mark, the video shows what happens when French police enter the area….

    These are not just high-crime areas where large numbers of Muslims live. They are areas in which Islamic law increasingly prevails. Kern also quotes French journalists speaking about the prevalence of Sharia in these areas:...

    https://www.algemeiner.com/2016/03/2...nd-ali-gharib/

    Last edited by KC; 23-03-2016 at 10:28 PM.

  17. #1617
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    as many have said, terrorism and its attraction may be more about a particular mind set than either religion or circumstances...

    http://www.macleans.ca/news/world/wh...ering-degrees/
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  18. #1618

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    as many have said, terrorism and its attraction may be more about a particular mind set than either religion or circumstances...

    http://www.macleans.ca/news/world/wh...ering-degrees/
    Very interesting.

  19. #1619

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    Dion quietly approved arms sale to Saudi Arabia in April: documents
    STEVEN CHASE
    Ottawa — The Globe and Mail
    Published Tuesday, Apr. 12, 2016 4:54PM EDT

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle29612233/

  20. #1620

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    Boko Haram Increasingly Uses Kidnapped Girls As Suicide Bombers : NPR

    http://www.npr.org/2016/04/13/474049...uicide-bombers

  21. #1621

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    Some killed while the slept in their beds


    Officials: 8 killed in rural Ohio homes, 3 children escape harm - UPI.com

    http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2016/...5971461333718/

  22. #1622

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    "Plotting". Now that's good journalism...


    Saudi Arabia's $10 billion gambit isn't for friendly purposes

    "...
    But there's a possibly darker side to Saudi Arabia's plans to take out a loan.

    The request for a loan has been eagerly greeted by U.S. firms such as Morgan Stanley, J.P. Morgan Chase, and Goldman Sachs.

    ..plotting ..., which is curious timing because the Congress is about to pass a law that would allow victims of terrorist attacks to sue state sponsors of terrorism, and that will likely include Saudi Arabia.

    It's possible that Saudi Arabia's loan request is a hedge against these legal challenges. It is also possible that Saudi Arabia will use the loans as leverage to prevent the U.S. governments from facilitating these lawsuits. Whomever loans the money will want to be repaid, so their lobbyists will be motivated to dissuade the federal government from pursuing cases against the oil kingdom.

    Paying interest is also forbidden in Islam, so there is ...

    This $10bn loan will be Saudi Arabia's first loan in 25 years. Their previous loan was for ....

    http://www.catholic.org/news/interna...y.php?id=68539
    Last edited by KC; 25-04-2016 at 07:02 PM.

  23. #1623

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    I'd almost say that this ranks as terrorist activity.



    Jerusalem Gay Pride: Ultra-Orthodox Jew convicted of murder over stabbing
    19 April 2016
    From the section Middle East


    In anti-gay pamphlets, he asked Jews to "risk beatings or imprisonment" to act against the event.

    He stabbed six people during the march in Jerusalem's city centre before being arrested. Shira Banki later died in hospital.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-36081114


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    if the enemies of one's enemies are one's friends, perhaps some friendships and some trust will come of this...

    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...809/story.html
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  25. #1625

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    Financial Times, 6-May-2016
    Victory for Sadiq Khan highlights tolerant face of London

    London elected a Muslim mayor on Friday, in a remarkable triumph over the racial and religious tensions that have bedevilled other European capitals.

    The historic moment — Sadiq Khan is the first directly elected Muslim mayor of an important western city — is being scrutinised around the world, particularly in European countries struggling to integrate Muslim communities.

    The win reaffirms London’s multicultural image at a time of rising populist fervour in Europe and the US. Europe’s anti-immigration parties have made inroads in recent months, fuelled by rising public fears following the terrorist attacks in Brussels and Paris by Isis...

    ....The son of a Pakistani bus driver and his seamstress wife, Mr Khan was one of eight children raised in public housing in south London....

    But he has also spoken of having multiple identities that coexist. “I am a Londoner, I am European, I am British, I am English, I am of Islamic faith, of Asian origin, of Pakistani heritage, a dad, a husband,” he said on the campaign trail....

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    Heh, guess the financial times aren't aware of Calgary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Heh, guess the financial times aren't aware of Calgary.
    In fairness, the article talks about "important western cities" rather than provincial backwaters... Even within the UK, London isn't the first city to elect a Muslim mayor.
    "The only really positive thing one could say about Vancouver is, it’s not the rest of Canada." Oink (britishexpats.com)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Heh, guess the financial times aren't aware of Calgary.
    not to take anything away from nenshi or from calgary but the reference was clearly to "an important western city".
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  29. #1629

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Heh, guess the financial times aren't aware of Calgary.
    Overall though, Canada seems to have a better approach to integrate Muslims in our community. Here is a comparison of two recent polls by the Economist:

    http://www.economist.com/blogs/erasm...muslim-opinion

  30. #1630

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    Quote Originally Posted by FamilyMan View Post
    Financial Times, 6-May-2016
    Victory for Sadiq Khan highlights tolerant face of London

    London elected a Muslim mayor on ...

    But he has also spoken of having multiple identities that coexist. “I am a Londoner, I am European, I am British, I am English, I am of Islamic faith, of Asian origin, of Pakistani heritage, a dad, a husband,” he said on the campaign trail....
    This is most excellent if he was the best qualified candidate for the job. I heard that he was. I just hope that all London muslims did not vote for him, and some London jewish, hindu and other religious people did vote for him. The world doesn't need more voting along purely religious or any other distorting ideological, dogmatic lines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FamilyMan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Heh, guess the financial times aren't aware of Calgary.
    Overall though, Canada seems to have a better approach to integrate Muslims in our community. Here is a comparison of two recent polls by the Economist:

    http://www.economist.com/blogs/erasm...muslim-opinion
    The surveys used different methods. The British pollsters did face-to-face interviews with 1,000 Muslims living in places where the Islamic population exceeded 20% while the Canadian investigators did telephone interviews with 600 Muslims, focusing on locations where the Muslim share was 5% or more. From more densely-packed communities, you'd expect harder-core responses.
    Mr. Apple, meet Mr. Orange... Nice try though.
    "The only really positive thing one could say about Vancouver is, it’s not the rest of Canada." Oink (britishexpats.com)

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by FamilyMan View Post
    Financial Times, 6-May-2016
    Victory for Sadiq Khan highlights tolerant face of London

    London elected a Muslim mayor on ...

    But he has also spoken of having multiple identities that coexist. “I am a Londoner, I am European, I am British, I am English, I am of Islamic faith, of Asian origin, of Pakistani heritage, a dad, a husband,” he said on the campaign trail....
    This is most excellent if he was the best qualified candidate for the job. I heard that he was. I just hope that all London muslims did not vote for him, and some London jewish, hindu and other religious people did vote for him. The world doesn't need more voting along purely religious or any other distorting ideological, dogmatic lines.
    It was mainly Labour v Tory. After two terms of the buffoon Boris Johnson (Tory) at the helm, the people of London seemed ready for a change of direction. The Tory candidate (Zac Goldsmith) tried to play the race/fear card, but rather predictably, it backfired quite spectacularly.
    "The only really positive thing one could say about Vancouver is, it’s not the rest of Canada." Oink (britishexpats.com)

  33. #1633

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by expat View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by FamilyMan View Post
    Financial Times, 6-May-2016
    Victory for Sadiq Khan highlights tolerant face of London

    London elected a Muslim mayor on ...

    But he has also spoken of having multiple identities that coexist. “I am a Londoner, I am European, I am British, I am English, I am of Islamic faith, of Asian origin, of Pakistani heritage, a dad, a husband,” he said on the campaign trail....
    This is most excellent if he was the best qualified candidate for the job. I heard that he was. I just hope that all London muslims did not vote for him, and some London jewish, hindu and other religious people did vote for him. The world doesn't need more voting along purely religious or any other distorting ideological, dogmatic lines.
    It was mainly Labour v Tory. After two terms of the buffoon Boris Johnson (Tory) at the helm, the people of London seemed ready for a change of direction. The Tory candidate (Zac Goldsmith) tried to play the race/fear card, but rather predictably, it backfired quite spectacularly.
    Somewhat interesting that this discussion is on a state of terrorism thread.

  34. #1634
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Heh, guess the financial times aren't aware of Calgary.
    not to take anything away from nenshi or from calgary but the reference was clearly to "an important western city".
    Calgary is the head office hub for an energy/oil basin that contains the third most recoverable reserves on the planet. I'd say that Calgary's pretty important and certainly punches above it's population weight in that respect. I guess it depends how you define/categorize "important".

  35. #1635

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Calgary is the head office hub for an energy/oil basin that contains the third most recoverable reserves on the planet. I'd say that Calgary's pretty important and certainly punches above it's population weight in that respect. I guess it depends how you define/categorize "important".
    Yeah, but it's no London. Or Berlin. Or Los Angeles. Or New York. Or Paris. Or Rome. Or Toronto. Or Vancouver.

    I thought I'd heard it all regarding bombastic Albertan self-aggrandizement until I saw someone compare London to Calgary in terms of importance.

    Capital of the British Empire vs the former Heart of the New West.


    According to Brookings Institution, London has largest metropolitan economy in the world with an estimated per capita GVA of £116,800 ($162,200). By way of comparison, London's economy is roughly the same size as that of Sweden or Iran.
    Comedy gold on this Monday morning.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  36. #1636
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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle
    Yeah, but it's no London. Or Berlin. Or Los Angeles. Or New York. Or Paris. Or Rome. Or Toronto. Or Vancouver.
    I never claimed it was.

  37. #1637

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle
    Yeah, but it's no London. Or Berlin. Or Los Angeles. Or New York. Or Paris. Or Rome. Or Toronto. Or Vancouver.
    I never claimed it was.
    You claimed the Financial Times should have noted that Calgary has had a Muslim mayor prior to London, which is ludicrous.

    Or am I missing something?
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  38. #1638
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    Not sure if you like being intentional obtuse just to get in to pissing contests, or what. But let's go back and see what was said:

    Financial Times: "Sadiq Khan is the first directly elected Muslim mayor of an important western city"

    Me: "Heh, guess the financial times aren't aware of Calgary."

    expat: "In fairness, the article talks about "important western cities" rather than provincial backwaters... Even within the UK, London isn't the first city to elect a Muslim mayor."

    Kcantor: "not to take anything away from nenshi or from calgary but the reference was clearly to "an important western city"."

    Me: "Calgary is the head office hub for an energy/oil basin that contains the third most recoverable reserves on the planet. I'd say that Calgary's pretty important and certainly punches above it's population weight in that respect. I guess it depends how you define/categorize "important"."

    Not sure what else needs to be said past that, unless like I said, you just want to get in to a pissing contest. Personally I'm not interested. Have fun, though.

  39. #1639

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    I didn't realize calling people out for saying something remarkably dumb was a pissing contest.

    You learn something every day on C2E.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  40. #1640

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    My aim of posting that story was to provide a positive story of tolerance in a world (and a thread on C2E) full of negative stories. Hopefully we can get more of such positive stories and keep this thread on a better direction.

  41. #1641

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    Quote Originally Posted by FamilyMan View Post
    Financial Times, 6-May-2016
    Victory for Sadiq Khan highlights tolerant face of London

    ...
    But he has also spoken of having multiple identities that coexist. “I am a Londoner, I am European, I am British, I am English, I am of Islamic faith, of Asian origin, of Pakistani heritage, a dad, a husband,” he said on the campaign trail....
    Quote Originally Posted by FamilyMan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Heh, guess the financial times aren't aware of Calgary.
    Overall though, Canada seems to have a better approach to integrate Muslims in our community. Here is a comparison of two recent polls by the Economist:

    http://www.economist.com/blogs/erasm...muslim-opinion

    Some food for thought...does "forcing" secularization deprives Muslims from adopting "hyphenated identity", such as posted above? Example below is related to the ban on burqa/niqab. I don't post selective quotes, as I know some might be tempted to jump in with their pre-conceived ideas, before reading the material and turn a constructive debate into ideological battles.

    The New Yorker, 18-MAy-2016
    WHAT CAN THE U.S. LEARN FROM RADICALIZATION IN THE FRENCH-SPEAKING WORLD?

  42. #1642

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    When I first heard the news they were already proclaiming it to be terrorism. Now with news of smoke alarms going off they are backpeddling - even though it could still be a case of terrorism - or not. The state of the world mind these days seems to be to proclaim every event as terrorism based - no actual facts needed. It would be nice if reporters would actually report and not speculate. Of course, officials lacking information have to assume terrorism in order to act fast should it actually turn out to be terrorism. Reporters could report on those actions instead of making up suggestive intuition-group-think-faith-based news stories.

    A decent article from May 20th:

    Was terrorism behind EgyptAir plane crash, or not? - ITV News

    http://www.itv.com/news/2016-05-20/w...-crash-or-not/

  43. #1643

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    Fifty Dead in Florida Nightclub Shooting, Worst in US History
    THE ASSOCIATED PRESS (MIKE SCHNEIDER)
    June 12, 2016 — 2:26 AM MDT Updated on June 12, 2016 — 8:57 PM MDT


    Excerpt:
    "When the gunfire finally stopped, 50 people were dead and dozens more were critically wounded in the deadliest mass shooting in modern U.S. history. Mateen, who law enforcement officials said had pledged allegiance to Islamic State in a 911 call around the time of the attack, died in a gun battle with SWAT team members."


    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...tclub-shooting

  44. #1644

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    interesting...
    Lack of public outcry over attacks in the Middle East fuels resentment of the West - The Gateway

    "On July 3, an ISIS-coordinated car bombing struck Baghdad, killing nearly 300 people. ...


    https://thegatewayonline.ca/2016/07/...s-lack-outcry/
    Whatever happened to honouring the victims?

    Daniel Decker, Jun 29, 2016


    https://thegatewayonline.ca/2016/06/...uring-victims/
    Last edited by KC; 14-07-2016 at 10:42 PM.

  45. #1645

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    [QUOTE=KC;776890]interesting...
    Lack of public outcry over attacks in the Middle East fuels resentment of the West - The Gateway

    "On July 3, an ISIS-coordinated car bombing struck Baghdad, killing nearly 300 people. ...


    https://thegatewayonline.ca/2016/07/...s-lack-outcry/
    People react to what's in the news. Our news doesn't cover much of violence in the Middle East because news reports on changes to the status quo.

    A mass murder here or in a Western country is still a rare and shocking event. A bomb going off in Iraq is Tuesday.

  46. #1646
    I'd rather C2E than work!
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    Possible military coup in Turkey. Sounds like the military has control but news is sketchy.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ankara-...coup-1.3681441

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  47. #1647

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    Wow. This is THE thread where you come for sweeping statements and generalizations to the max. You can go from moral absolutism to moral relativism in matter of posts. See you again in six months.

  48. #1648

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moodib View Post
    Wow. This is THE thread where you come for sweeping statements and generalizations to the max. You can go from moral absolutism to moral relativism in matter of posts. See you again in six months.
    Yeah, I'm always torn between posting to this thread or the smart phones war thread. This one seems less ambiguous.

  49. #1649

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    Erdogan increasingly seems like another Putin.



    Friday’s coup attempt in Turkey took U.S. intelligence officials by surprise, a U.S. official said. But intelligence analysts have been concerned for months about simmering tensions between President Recep Tayyip Erdogan and Turkish military brass as Erdogan has consolidated and expanded his power, the official said, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss internal assessments.

    The Turkish military sees itself as a protector of moderate and secular institutions in Turkey, the official said, and Erdogan has recently been moving more aggressively to silence dissent inside the country, expand his control of the courts and clamp down on freedom of the press.

    In March, the Turkish government raided the Istanbul offices of the largest-circulation opposition newspaper, Zaman. Columnists critical of the government have been fired in response to government pressure, and reporters have been imprisoned on terrorism charges."

    http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-t...htmlstory.html

    Older article:

    Turkey’s Prime Minister Just Resigned. Here’s Why That Matters.
    BY LAUREL RAYMOND MAY 5, 2016 1:07 PM

    http://thinkprogress.org/world/2016/...gns-explained/
    Last edited by KC; 15-07-2016 at 07:57 PM.

  50. #1650

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    Events in Nice were a terrible tragedy. I walked that stretch just a couple years ago. My flair continues to be accurate.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  51. #1651

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Events in Nice were a terrible tragedy. I walked that stretch just a couple years ago. My flair continues to be accurate.
    They need to think about installing retractable bollards on various streets where crowds gather.

  52. #1652

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Events in Nice were a terrible tragedy. I walked that stretch just a couple years ago. My flair continues to be accurate.
    They need to think about installing retractable bollards on various streets where crowds gather.
    Nah, we just need to cut religion loose.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  53. #1653

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    Great, the rebels the US (and Canada, and other Western nations) are supporting in Syria just beheaded a 10 year old boy and took a video of it:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-36835678

    Thank you Obama for picking such great and noble forces to support

    A report published by the human rights group Amnesty International earlier this month detailed a series of violations allegedly committed by Nour al-Din al-Zinki Movement fighters, including abductions and torture.

    The group is reported to have benefited from financial and military support from the US, UK, France, Turkey, Qatar and other Gulf Arab states in the past.

  54. #1654

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    ^Newsflash - they're all messed up. There's no "good side".
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  55. #1655

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    Turkey revokes licenses of 21,000 teachers, and have removed Deans from every Turkish university. Education is Islam's biggest enemy, and Erdogan is using this coup to get rid of his biggest enemy.

    https://www.rt.com/news/352119-turke...-coup-attempt/

    Islamo-fascist state? No need to predict; it's already here.

  56. #1656

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    There's a lot of analysts that believe Erdogan, while not behind the coup from the outset, pulled a lot of the strings to make it happen when and the way it did, to get the outcome he wanted so he could use it as a platform to do exactly what he's doing. He had lists of dissenters ready the moment he surfaced, with 6000 military officers, police, judges, and others imprisoned almost immediately.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  57. #1657

    Default

    Duplicated post
    Last edited by KC; 26-07-2016 at 07:30 PM.

  58. #1658

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    There's a lot of analysts that believe Erdogan, while not behind the coup from the outset, pulled a lot of the strings to make it happen when and the way it did, to get the outcome he wanted so he could use it as a platform to do exactly what he's doing. He had lists of dissenters ready the moment he surfaced, with 6000 military officers, police, judges, and others imprisoned almost immediately.

    Turkey’s Erdogan Cleans House to Form a More Perfect Islamic State
    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/turkey...100000935.html


    Changing alliances...

    Putin and Erdogan: The Beginning of a Beautiful Friendship

    “This is a lose-lose proposition for the West: either it takes a pragmatic stance and accepts what Erdogan is doing, despite the evident breaches of human rights, law and justice entailed, undermining its claims to having values-based policies. Or it risks losing a crucial partner in both military and migration matters. Putin – who never claimed to a values-based foreign policy – can simply make encouraging noises, sit back and watch the West tie itself in knots,” says Mark Galeotti, an expert in security and military affairs.

    https://themoscowtimes.com/articles/...iendship-54742



    04-03-2014
    Quote Originally Posted by Ustauk View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    I wonder if Turkey is starting to sweat a bit. It might soon prove a nice addition to the new Russian empire.
    Turkey is a full member of NATO with an active military four times the size of Ukraine's. Also, Russia can't claim to the be defending Russian speakers/citizens the way they can with Georgia and Ukraine. Not going to happen.
    Not to mention that if Russia even hinted that they were attempting to conquer it to regain the original seat of Orthodox Christianity, or Turkey framed it that way in its defence, you'd have every Middle Eastern Muslim nation, including Iran and Syria, lining up besides NATO to fight Russia. I doubt even Putin would be nuts enough to kick up that hornets' nest.
    http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/showt...turkey+Ukraine
    Last edited by KC; 26-07-2016 at 07:41 PM.

  59. #1659

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    The more and more that I think about it, I am getting the feeling that this is a masterstroke from Putin.

    Apparently Russian and Iranian intelligence got whiff of the military coup early enough to be able to warn Putin himself, who rumors say PERSONALLY called Erdogan to give him the lowdown:

    http://www.fort-russ.com/2016/07/tur...nks-putin.html


    How come these 2 are the only nations that knew what was going to go down?

    And right now Erdogan is traveling to the Kremlin to make overtures of "friendship" to the Russians, and Putin is making him eat humble pie.

    I am starting to think that the Russians really war-gamed this out very professionally, and may have even had a hand in giving certain officers assurances of support in the event of a coup, only to turn around and sell them down the river, but in this way securing Turkey's compliance by putting Erdogan in the "I'll do whatever you want position".

    If so, it's ruthless but absolutely brilliant.

  60. #1660
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    ^It would make a lot of sense for Russia to deploy and invest significant intelligence assets in Turkey. First there is Turkey's proximity to Russia's southern flank, Russia considers the Black Sea to be its own private "lake" (much to the detriment of Ukraine as Russia covets Crimea).

    Then there is Turkey's proximity and animosity towards Syria and Russia's regional ally Assad. It is to their benefit that Turkey behaves more preferentially towards Russia with the added benefit of possibly undermining NATO's unity and distancing Turkey from the EU.
    Did my dog just fall into a pothole???

  61. #1661

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by norwoodguy View Post
    ^It would make a lot of sense for Russia to deploy and invest significant intelligence assets in Turkey. First there is Turkey's proximity to Russia's southern flank, Russia considers the Black Sea to be its own private "lake" (much to the detriment of Ukraine as Russia covets Crimea).

    Then there is Turkey's proximity and animosity towards Syria and Russia's regional ally Assad. It is to their benefit that Turkey behaves more preferentially towards Russia with the added benefit of possibly undermining NATO's unity and distancing Turkey from the EU.
    Plus improved access to the Mediterranean sea (maybe it's port in Syria) and improved ability to sever various Euro-mid east connections (trade, pipeline, etc.)

  62. #1662

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    Islamic State Magazine - Read the chapter "Why We Hate you, Why We Fight you" in particular.

    http://www.clarionproject.org/factsh...-the-cross.pdf


    Anyone who is any kind of supporter or apologist for these psychopaths should be locked up for life.

  63. #1663

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    Whoa - who saw this coming? The Russians certainly knew about this, as it comes hot on the heels of Erdogan's visit to the Kremlin:



    Turkish tanks cross Syrian border in military op to retake city of Jarablus from ISIS


    Turkey has launched a ground incursion into Syria targeting Islamic State and Kurdish fighters near the town of Jarablus. Ankara says it wants to take the town to stop cross-border attacks, while the Kurds warn that Turkish troops will get into a quagmire.
    https://www.rt.com/news/356959-turki...s-cross-syria/




    There is a definite complex game of chess being waged by several players here. And yet again, the USA was for sure blindsided by the move.

  64. #1664
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    There is a definite complex game of chess being waged by several players here. And yet again, the USA was for sure blindsided by the move.
    From the linked news release:
    The operation, called Euphrates Shield, is also being supported by Turkish air forces, as well as A-10S and F-16 warplanes from the US-led coalition.

  65. #1665

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    Coalition yes, but this move is blocking Kurdish expansion (which is the group that the US is primarily backing).

  66. #1666

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    USA to Turkey: "Stop... or we may have to... like, ask you to stop again."


    Syria war: US warns over Turkish-Kurdish violence


    The US says fighting between Turkey, pro-Turkish rebels and Kurdish-aligned forces in northern Syria is "unacceptable" and must stop.


    Clashes in places where so-called Islamic State (IS) was not present were a "source of deep concern", the US envoy to the anti-IS coalition tweeted.
    Turkish forces have attacked what they say are Kurdish "terrorists" since crossing the border last week.


    But the Kurdish YPG militia says Turkey just wants to occupy Syrian territory.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-37212256


    Like I said, there is some type of agreement going on here between Turkey and Russia, and the USA is not being consulted.

  67. #1667

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    ^Another Obama red line to be completely ignored, yup. Turkey is in NATO, the US can do squat. Just hope our forces fighting with the kurds don't get killed by some turks. Whole thing is a total mess.

  68. #1668

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    Here's the Russian news outlet's op ed... with a plug for Trump. Ever feel like we're living the book 1984 for real?



    US in denial over sponsoring terrorism is why Syrian war rages on

    That vacuity from Washington vindicates the Syrian and Russian assessment as essentially correct: the vast majority of the anti-government opposition are terrorist entities. They may have countless different names, but they share the same extremist ideology and methods; and ultimately they share the same sponsors among foreign states for weapons and funding. Chief among these sponsors is Washington, Britain and France, as well as Turkey, Saudi Arabia and other Gulf monarchies.

    The Western media indulge in the same bankrupt, mendacious thinking by referring to “inter-mingling” between “moderates” and “extremists”. This is plainly a delusional narrative that has no bearing on reality in Syria. More than this it is a psychological operation of deception to conceal criminality of governments from their citizens.

    The disclosure by former US intelligence chief Lt General Michael Flynn that the Obama administration was well aware from as early as 2012 that its covert support to anti-government militants in Syria was fomenting jihadist terrorism was a rare moment of honesty. Obama’s Secretary of State at that crucial time was Hillary Clinton. In that regard, Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump is right to say that Obama and Clinton “created” Islamic State and other related jihadist terrorist groups.


    https://www.rt.com/op-edge/357465-ke...-syria-geneva/

    per der Spiegel

    Syria à la Carte: Turkish Invasion Highlights Rapidly Shifting Alliances

    One common description of chaos theory holds that the flapping of a butterfly's wings can trigger a tornado. And it could very well be that the theory is the best tool we currently have available to describe the complex situation in Syria. The butterfly wings in this case was the late July decision by the Syrian regime to recruit new tribal militia fighters in a remote northeastern province. The tornado it triggered four weeks later was threefold: the invasion of northern Syria by the Turkish army; the sudden expulsion of Islamic State from the border town of Jarabulus; and the US military suddenly finding itself on both sides of a new front in Syria -- that between the Turks and the Kurds.

    ...

    Once the Turkish tanks had established their position on a hill west of Jarabulus, they began firing on the fragmented IS units in the city. But they also fired on those troops that had likewise been seeking to liberate Jarabulus from IS: the Kurdish-controlled SDF militia, which had advanced on the city from the south. For the Turks, it was a two-fold success: For one, they attacked IS, which Ankara believes was behind the attack last weekend on a wedding in Gaziantep which killed over 50 people.

    ...

    In the tactical shifting of alliances in Syria, the Kurds had hoped to be the cleverest player. Now, however, it looks as though they may have risked too much.

    To make matters worse for the Kurds, their relations with the US have likewise deteriorated rapidly, despite being Washington's closest ally in the fight against Islamic State. After pushing IS out of its own areas, Kurdish fighters did not, as had been agreed with the US,...


    http://www.spiegel.de/international/...a-1109649.html





    Comments:

    6.
    mrm_penumathy Yesterday at 07:25 PM
    It is strange and usual misrepresentation of the history. Kurds were indeed given a free hand in Jarabulus. But they thought they are too big to stop because of US support for them and took on the Syrian Govt forces In Jarabulus. Remember the US General in Turkey warned that they will take down the Syrian and Russian air forces and shoot them down if they attacked their assets in Jarabulus. So to make the story short it is the US that folded and dumped the Kurds like a hot potatoe when the Sultan sent his army to take out the Kurds in Jarabulus. People who selectively site history to make a point loose their credibility.
    Last edited by KC; 29-08-2016 at 03:38 PM.

  69. #1669

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    We can all agree that Donald Trump is a blockhead who constantly opens his mouth just to switch feet, but comments like this should have all everyone concerned:



    Hillary Clinton’s Plan to Destroy Russia


    By Eric Zuesse
    Global Research, September 01, 2016


    Leaked emails are filling in the picture of a Bill-and-Hillary-Clinton plan to destroy Russia — a plan which had originated with U.S. President George Herbert Walker Bush in 1990, and which has been followed through both by his son George W. Bush, and by both of the Clintons, but which has only recently started to become documented by leaked publications of personal communications amongst the key operatives who were the insiders running this operation behind the scenes, and who include Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, George W. Bush, Victoria Nuland, Jeffrey Feltman, Saudi Prince Bandar bin Sultan al-Saud, Saudi Crown Prince Muhammed bin Salman al-Saud, and the Emir of Qatar.


    This operation came out into public view only briefly when the news site Zero Hedge headlined on 6 October 2015 “Saudi Clerics Call For Jihad Against Russia, Iran” and linked to a number of sources, including to a Wall Street Journal report the day before, which simply ignored the Saudi involvement and headlined “U.S. Sees Russian Drive Against CIA-Backed Rebels in Syria”, as if this matter were merely a U.S.-v.-Russia issue, not an issue involving the Saud family at all. By contrast, the zerohedge article closed with “‘This is a real war on Sunnis, their countries and their identities,’ said the statement [by the International Union of Muslim Scholars, which is based in Qatar, whose ruling family, the Thanis, work closely with the Saud family].


    It urged the rebels to join a ‘jihad against the enemy of God and your enemy, and Muslims will back you every way they can.’” As a British news-site for jihadists put the matter, “According to experts, by issuing this statement they seek to encourage Saudi, Gulf, and Muslim youths to fight against Russian forces, similar to the recruitment of young fighters during the Afghan-Soviet war.”

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/hillary...russia/5543429

  70. #1670
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    heh, you should really check your sources. Global Research is an anti-Western, conspiracy website that can't distinguish between real and fake news: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Globalresearch

    There's nuggets of truth to articles there, but overall it's not credible. Articles have been published on that site claiming that the 9/11 attacks were conducted by the US government, for example. It's anti-vaccine, pro-chemtrails, and so on.

  71. #1671

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    Another averted "dry run" of a terrorist plot? British police also have made over 260 arrests related to terror plots since the beginning of the year, adding two more arrests to the list today:


    Isis plot to attack UK' smashed by anti-terror police
    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime...-a3339896.html


    Car containing gas cylinders found parked near Paris' Notre Dame cathedral, police say
    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/09...olice-say.html

  72. #1672

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    "- Why are you doing bad things? No, why is the West doing bad things? Never mind us."

    I think large part of Islamism is about never answering a single straight question with a straight answer. Spiegel interview with an Islamic State recruiter:

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-999557.html

  73. #1673

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    "- Why are you doing bad things? No, why is the West doing bad things? Never mind us."

    I think large part of Islamism is about never answering a single straight question with a straight answer. Spiegel interview with an Islamic State recruiter:

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-999557.html
    Great interview, worthy of quoting to get people to read the whole thing for some insight into some minds.


    The simplicity and self-serving nature of a black and white view of the world:



    Abu Sattar: Democracy is for infidels. A real Muslim is not a democrat because he doesn't care about the opinions of majorities and minorities don't interest him. He is only interested in what Islam says. Furthermore, democracy is a hegemonic tool of the West and contrary to Islam. Why do you act as though the entire world needs democracy? And when it comes to homosexuality, the issue is clearly dealt with by the Koran. It says it is forbidden and should be punished.

    SPIEGEL ONLINE: Such statements help cast suspicion on all Muslims. In many countries, they are under pressure to distance themselves from Islamic State even though they have nothing at all to do with terror.

    Abu Sattar: So? Are they speaking out against us? (Laughs) I think we enjoy much more support than you would like to believe. Those who demand that Muslims take sides are totally right. We go even a step further: All people should disclose whether they submit to Allah or not. Those who are against us are our enemies and must be fought. That includes people who call themselves Muslims but who don't lead their lives as such -- people who drink, who don't pray, who don't fast, who have constantly changing partners and who are unable to recite the Koran.

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-999557.html

    They have their book, we have our minds:


    Milton Glaser:
    Ten Things I Have Learned


    8
    DOUBT IS BETTER THAN CERTAINTY.
    Everyone always talks about confidence in believing what you do. I remember once going to a class in yoga where the teacher said that, spirituality speaking, if you believed that you had achieved enlightenment you have merely arrived at your limitation. I think that is also true in a practical sense. Deeply held beliefs of any kind prevent you from being open to experience, which is why I find all firmly held ideological positions questionable. It makes me nervous when someone believes too deeply or too much. I think that being skeptical and questioning all deeply held beliefs is essential. Of course we must know the difference between skepticism and cynicism because cynicism is as much a restriction of one's openness to the world as passionate belief is. They are sort of twins. And then in a very real way, ...

    Ideally, making everyone win through acts of accommodation is desirable. But self-righteousness is often the enemy. Self-righteousness and narcissism generally come out of some sort of childhood trauma, which we do not have to go into. It is a consistently difficult thing in human affairs. Some years ago I read a most remarkable thing about love, that also applies to the nature of co-existing with others. It was a quotation from Iris Murdoch in her obituary. It read ' Love is the extremely difficult realization that something other than oneself is real.' Isn't that fantastic! The best insight on the subject of love that one can imagine.

    https://www.miltonglaser.com/files/E...hings-8400.pdf
    Last edited by KC; 09-09-2016 at 11:59 AM.

  74. #1674
    First One is Always Free
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    "- Why are you doing bad things? No, why is the West doing bad things? Never mind us."

    I think large part of Islamism is about never answering a single straight question with a straight answer. Spiegel interview with an Islamic State recruiter:

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-999557.html
    Or maybe its just a hint that these maters should be discussed within a certain context? Its easy to start a war against ideas which you simply reject, but it is not so easy to win such a war without a good understanding where these ideas are coming from, IMO.

  75. #1675

    Default

    US airstrike in Syria kills at lest 62 Syrian troops that were fighting ISIS. The destruction of that base allows Islamic State to advance. USA says "oops":

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-37398721

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/us-airs...ssia-1.3767468


    Moscow has called an urgent UN Security Council meeting, says The White House is defending Islamic State (since this isn't the first the the USA has done this:

    https://www.rt.com/news/359686-un-se...rgent-meeting/



    I think the world can kiss the ceasefire goodbye.

  76. #1676

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    US airstrike in Syria kills at lest 62 Syrian troops that were fighting ISIS. The destruction of that base allows Islamic State to advance. USA says "oops":

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-37398721

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/us-airs...ssia-1.3767468


    Moscow has called an urgent UN Security Council meeting, says The White House is defending Islamic State (since this isn't the first the the USA has done this:

    https://www.rt.com/news/359686-un-se...rgent-meeting/



    I think the world can kiss the ceasefire goodbye.
    Whenever this stuff happens and other superpowers are involved, I always wonder if it wasn't a setup, especially these days where hacking could maybe change coordinates, mapping, identifiers, even voice communications. ie have a Russian jet fly over Turkey while the pilot thinks s/he is still over Syria.

  77. #1677

    Default

    ISIS now may have attacked US and Iraqi troops with a chemical weapon:

    http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/21/politi...gas-us-troops/

  78. #1678

    Default

    NATO and Russia are steadily concentrating military forces (including nuclear missiles) and nobody seems to care. This is the largest military standoff since the Cold War.


    Britain, U.S. sending planes, troops to deter Russia in the east

    Britain said on Wednesday it will send fighter jets to Romania next year and the United States promised troops, tanks and artillery to Poland in NATO's biggest military build-up on Russia's borders since the Cold War.


    Germany, Canada and other NATO allies also pledged forces at a defense ministers meeting in Brussels on the same day two Russian warships armed with cruise missiles entered the Baltic Sea between Sweden and Denmark, underscoring East-West tensions.


    In Madrid, the foreign ministry said Russia had withdrawn a request to refuel three warships in Spain's North African enclave of Ceuta after NATO allies said they could be used to target civilians in Syria.


    The ships were part of an eight-ship carrier battle group - including Russia's sole aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov - that is expected to join around 10 other Russian vessels already off the Syrian coast, diplomats said.


    NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg said the troop contributions to a new 4,000-strong force in the Baltics and eastern Europe were a measured response to what the alliance believes are some 330,000 Russian troops stationed on Russia's western flank near Moscow.


    "This month alone, Russia has deployed nuclear-capable Iskander missiles to Kaliningrad and suspended a weapons-grade plutonium agreement with the United States," Stoltenberg said, also accusing Russia of continued support for rebels in Ukraine.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-na...-idUSKCN12P31W

  79. #1679

    Default

    Interesting. About an hour ago I was reading that it was an Air Canada flight, or a flight from Canada. And the comments on different sites about it being an islamic terrorist were very interesting. Pulled this article just now. However, of course reporting facts is never a priority over getting clicks...


    Five dead, eight injured at Fort Lauderdale airport; suspect had gun in checked bag
    JANUARY 6, 2017 1:30 PM

    "The suspected gunman was identified as Esteban Santiago, law enforcement officials told the Miami Herald. He is thought to have been a passenger on a flight from Canada that landed at FLL at around noon with a checked gun in his baggage.

    After retrieving his bag, Santiago is believed to have gone into the bathroom and loaded the weapon. Then he stepped into the Terminal 2 baggage-claim area and began shooting."

    http://www.miamiherald.com/news/loca...124963889.html
    Official: Suspected Shooter Checked In Gun From Canadian Flight
    CBS Local-2 hours ago
    According to Broward Commissioner Chip LaMarca, Esteban-Ruiz was a passenger on a Canadian flight with a gun that he checked in.

    http://miami.cbslocal.com/2017/01/06...ed-fll-gunman/


    "Earlier reports claimed Santiago-Ruiz came in on a flight from Canada. On the company’s Twitter account, Air Canada confirmed that no one by that name was on their flight."


    FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. -- An arriving airline passenger pulled a gun from his luggage and opened fire in the baggage claim area at the Fort Lauderdale airport Friday, killing five people and wounding eight before throwing his weapon down and lying spread-eagle on the ground, authorities and witnesses said.

    Chip LaMarca, a Broward County commissioner who was briefed on the attack by the sheriff's office, had said the shooter had arrived aboard a Canadian flight, but
    Canadian officials said that was not the case.

    Canadian Embassy spokeswoman Christine Constantin said in an email to The Associated Press that the suspect did not travel from Canada and was not on an Air Canada flight. She said the suspect has no connection to Canada.

    The shooting happened at the airport's terminal 2, where Air Canada and Delta operate flights.

    "We understand from officials he was on a flight originating in Anchorage, transiting through Minneapolis and landing in Ft. Lauderdale," Constantin's email says.
    Global Affairs Canada also said the flight on which Fort Lauderdale airport suspect arrived did not originate in Canada nor was a Canadian carrier involved. Air

    Canada said it has no record of any passenger with the name of suspect nor of any checked guns on any of its flights to the city.


    http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/suspecte...cial-1.3230496
    Fox news headline right now:

    At least 5 dead, 8 hospitalized after shooting at Ft. Lauderdale airport
    Published January 06, 2017

    The suspect brought a gun in a checked bag on an Air Canada flight, officials said. "He claimed his bag and took the gun from baggage and went into the bathroom to load it. Came out shooting people in baggage claim," Broward County Commissioner Chip LaMarca wrote on Facebook.


    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/01/06...e-airport.html
    Last edited by KC; 06-01-2017 at 05:31 PM.

  80. #1680
    C2E Hard Core Contributor
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    I have to take my shoes off, had a lip gloss taken away, and yet you can put guns in your baggage. I think that should not be allowed! Its wrong..!

  81. #1681
    I'd rather C2E than work!
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    When you check in online, you're asked if you have any guns, weapons, etc. (I can't remember the exact wording) in your checked baggage. I've never carried such items, so always click the 'no' button. So, what happens if you click 'yes'? Can someone enlighten?

    When spotted by the x-ray equipment at airport security, why aren't guns compulsorily removed, boxed up and sent at owner's expense by mail to their final destination?
    Nisi Dominus Frustra

  82. #1682

    Default

    Air Canada tweeted to CNN asking them to please stop telling everyone the shooter was on an Air Canada flight:

    https://i.sli.mg/C3OL3E.png

    (The reply comment below it is funny)

  83. #1683

    Default

    Don't we have lots of small businesses that are dependent on attracting hunters?

    Ammo and guns together seems crazy but decades have gone by without this happening before so... I'm not sure what should be done, if anything.


    https://www.westjet.com/en-ca/travel...ishing-hunting

  84. #1684
    I'd rather C2E than work!
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    Well, up until today I guess we've been lucky. Classic case of 'just because something hasn't happened doesn't mean it can't or won't happen'.
    Nisi Dominus Frustra

  85. #1685

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by howie View Post
    Well, up until today I guess we've been lucky. Classic case of 'just because something hasn't happened doesn't mean it can't or won't happen'.
    Or that it will but the eventuality and losses were deemed acceptable. It sure couldn't have been a risk that anti-terrorism authorities hadn't considered happening. In retrospect taking off shoes etc. seems like somewhat of a farce or charade.

  86. #1686

    Default

    Fake news maybe?

    Nigeria: Babies used in suicide bombings, officials warn
    From the section Africa

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-38725976

  87. #1687
    I'd rather C2E than work!
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    The BBC isn't known for publishing material they haven't checked. The incident is horrifying but not out of line with other acts by Boko Haram.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  88. #1688
    C2E Continued Contributor
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    Sad we're at the point where a terrorist attack in London that kills five people no longer warrants discussion. (Until now, more than a day after)

  89. #1689

    Default

    Is "that point" that everybody feels that they're VC e said their bit, or that London doesn't feel close-to-home enough, or 5 deaths isn't enough, or, or what??

    Attention and fear, sorry, terror, is what terrorists are after. The less we notice the better.
    There can only be one.

  90. #1690

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph60 View Post
    Sad we're at the point where a terrorist attack in London that kills five people no longer warrants discussion. (Until now, more than a day after)
    BBC had a lot of coverage on it yesterday.

    Sad too that far more destructive attacks in other nations don't warrant much coverage.

    However, we're a commonwealth nation so we should be very interesting in events in the U.K.

  91. #1691

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Sad too that far more destructive attacks in other nations don't warrant much coverage.
    Like what?

  92. #1692

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Sad too that far more destructive attacks in other nations don't warrant much coverage.
    Like what?
    Maybe this (below). It's got coverage on BBC. Not sure if it will get much additional coverage, TV coverage, etc.
    And see if Trudeau makes a phone call.

    Militia fighters decapitate 40 police officers in DR Congo
    3 hours ago
    Africa


    Militia fighters in DR Congo have decapitated about 40 police officers in an ambush in the central province of Kasai, local officials say.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-39396196
    Last edited by KC; 25-03-2017 at 10:03 PM.

  93. #1693

    Default

    What makes the news is a change in the status quo. That seems like something typical weekly happening in Congo.

  94. #1694

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    What makes the news is a change in the status quo. That seems like something typical weekly happening in Congo.
    Then why did you say: "Like what?"

  95. #1695

    Default

    It was an honest question. I suppose I can respond by saying that they ARE covered.

    Not here very often because they aren't really news here. But Al Jazeera and other news sites for African countries where this stuff is reported every day are just a click away.

  96. #1696

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    It was an honest question. I suppose I can respond by saying that they ARE covered.

    Not here very often because they aren't really news here. But Al Jazeera and other news sites for African countries where this stuff is reported every day are just a click away.
    I think you're simultaneously arguing and supporting KC's point. The bolded is exactly what he was getting at. He was opining that it's sad that large scale attacks in other countries don't warrant much coverage.

  97. #1697

    Default

    Or this...

    Coalition air strikes 'kill more than 200 people' in Mosul

    More than 200 civilians are reported to have been killed in a single US-led coalition raid on Mosul, as the United Nations warns the worst was yet to come for those still trapped in the Iraqi city.

    Some 230 bodies of mostly women and children were pulled from three adjoining houses in the Jadida neighbourhood of west Mosul overnight Wednesday and into Thursday morning, according to witnesses.

    ---

    “This is what Isil wants,” he said. “They want the ISF (Iraqi special forces) and coalition to target civilians, this is why they are using them.”
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...uilding-mosul/

  98. #1698

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Or this...

    Coalition air strikes 'kill more than 200 people' in Mosul

    More than 200 civilians are reported to have been killed in a single US-led coalition raid on Mosul, as the United Nations warns the worst was yet to come for those still trapped in the Iraqi city.

    Some 230 bodies of mostly women and children were pulled from three adjoining houses in the Jadida neighbourhood of west Mosul overnight Wednesday and into Thursday morning, according to witnesses.

    ---

    “This is what Isil wants,” he said. “They want the ISF (Iraqi special forces) and coalition to target civilians, this is why they are using them.”
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...uilding-mosul/
    Yeah. Should we do suspicious of large concentrations of women and children and few men? Are they sacrificed for the sake of PR?

  99. #1699

    Default

    The civilians there have been suffering under civil war and ISIS for a long time already anyway. There is no way out of this mess where civilians come out unharmed, but ISIS has to go.

  100. #1700

    Default

    Oh I see. They're already suffering so it's perfectly OK to bomb them. Gotcha. Oh, and by the way, let's make sure that we don't allow any of them in as refugees.

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