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Thread: Topless'ness

  1. #1

    Default Topless'ness

    I'm not exactly sure of the current laws but should women be allowed to go topless, if they so desire, in some or all public spaces in Edmonton?

  2. #2

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    ^ They can... it's a bit grey though

    From wiki

    In 1991 toplessness as an indecent act was challenged by Gwen Jacob in Guelph, Ontario, who removed her shirt and was charged with indecency. Part of her defense was the double standards between men and women. Although she was convicted, this was overturned by the Court of Appeal. This case determined that being topless is not indecent within the meaning of the Criminal Code. However it did not establish any constitutional right of equality. This case subsequently led to the acquittal of women in British Columbia and Saskatchewan who faced similar charges. Although each Province and Territory technically reserves its right to interpret the law as it pleases, the Ontario case has proved influential. Since the matter has not been determined by the Supreme Court of Canada, it is still possible that a woman could be convicted elsewhere in Canada, but interpretation of moral law in Canada has become increasingly liberalised.[1] There do not appear to have been any further women charged in Canada since these cases were decided.
    Last edited by edmonton daily photo; 24-12-2013 at 10:16 AM.
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  3. #3

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    ^gads, more fuzzy cultural/legal conditions... that sure takes all the fun out of the debate.

    When is discrimination ok? - Connect2Edmonton
    http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/forum...ad.php?t=34385

  4. #4

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    I am sorry KC I don't understand.. you asked a question and there is the answer. What are you fishing for my good man. It seems like you want to start a conversation on something, so just say it.

    ;-D
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  5. #5

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    I say we should stop the fetishization of womens bodies. Breasts aren't any more sexual than a male's chest. Men have just made them dirty. I love boobs, but according to nature they are milk sacks. That's about it.

    Society as a whole needs to stop caring so much about this sort of stuff.

    *I really see nothing wrong with nudism in general though in this climate you'd be stupid to attempt to be free ballin' outside right now..*

    I was sitting in a starbucks with one of my close female friends and she was breast feeding her baby, and some old lady said "hey, harlot put your F***** tits away this is a public place, you should be ashamed of yourself!".. After I yelled at the old lady for 20 minutes and she fled to her car in terror, my friend just shrugged it off with "it happens" like this was a common thing (and though not that virulent having spent lots of time with her and other friends of mine who breast feed in public it is a more prevalent thing than I would have though). The staring, the comments all of it is just idiotic.

  6. #6

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    Harlot....I love it. Who says that anymore. make sure your friend has her Crimson A next time ya go out.

    Maybe if you are really good you can get called a harpee next.

    People amaze me.
    Last edited by edmonton daily photo; 24-12-2013 at 12:08 PM.
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    I am sorry KC I don't understand.. you asked a question and there is the answer. What are you fishing for my good man. It seems like you want to start a conversation on something, so just say it.

    ;-D
    As always just "fishing" for Edmontonians attitudes, biases, etc. towards various social issues etc where interesting debates are almost guaranteed - and often challenge and correct my own views. Moreover, I'd rather hear it here directly than out of some survey results saying "Edmontonians believe..." followed by some generalizing statement or as a result of some event where the squeakiest wheels get the press coverage and it taints all of Edmonton. (Much like Albertans being labelled "Red Necks" by people living in parts of the country that long resisted the suffrage movement, etc. decades after Alberta showed its progressive leanings.)

    Or, another thing I've noticed, the berating of our natives, native rights, etc. Having been born in Edmonton, having family going back over 100 years here, having grown up with friends with family ties to a Edmonton that are much older than that, I never heard negative comments about our native peoples until entering the workforce and encountering people with only a recent history in Edmonton saying racist things. So anedoctally it seemed to be that some racism is being imported into Edmonton.

    So, a conversation about the above would be quite intangible. However, conversations on public breast feeding, men hypocritically calling women "fake", men being able to take their shirts off in public, officially sanctioned rights to discriminate on age, etc. challenge people, including me to think about how we are aghast at some 'wrong' behaviours yet essentially engage in them ourselves under different guises.
    Last edited by KC; 24-12-2013 at 02:46 PM.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by IdriveaSubaru View Post
    I say we should stop the fetishization of womens bodies. Breasts aren't any more sexual than a male's chest. Men have just made them dirty. I love boobs, but according to nature they are milk sacks. That's about it.
    Right. 10,000 years of traditional female form worship is a little hard to break.

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  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by IdriveaSubaru View Post
    I say we should stop the fetishization of womens bodies. Breasts aren't any more sexual than a male's chest. Men have just made them dirty. I love boobs, but according to nature they are milk sacks. That's about it.

    Society as a whole needs to stop caring so much about this sort of stuff.

    *I really see nothing wrong with nudism in general though in this climate you'd be stupid to attempt to be free ballin' outside right now..*

    I was sitting in a starbucks with one of my close female friends and she was breast feeding her baby, and some old lady said "hey, harlot put your F***** tits away this is a public place, you should be ashamed of yourself!".. After I yelled at the old lady for 20 minutes and she fled to her car in terror, my friend just shrugged it off with "it happens" like this was a common thing (and though not that virulent having spent lots of time with her and other friends of mine who breast feed in public it is a more prevalent thing than I would have though). The staring, the comments all of it is just idiotic.
    Yeah "Harlot". Hilarious. Absolutely fascinating behaviour isn't it. And it comes from other women!

    I was half-listening to a great CBC interview on "shadeism" yesterday and it was mentioned how it was other women encouraging darker skinned women, in India I believe, to bleach their skin. It was blamed on a paternalistic society. Hmm, I'm not so sure that conclusion was valid.

    Worthy of its own thread in my mind but then, maybe not.
    Shadeism
    http://vimeo.com/16210769
    "shadeism.com | This documentary short is an introduction to the issue of shadeism, the discrimination that exists between the lighter-skinned and darker-skinned members of the same community. This documentary short looks specifically at how it affects young womyn within the African, Caribbean, and South Asian diasporas. Through the eyes and words of 5 young womyn and 1 little girl - all females of colour - the film takes us into the thoughts and experiences of each. Overall, 'Shadeism' explores where shadeism comes from, how it directly affects us as womyn of colour, and ultimately, begins to explore how we can move forward through dialogue and discussion."
    Last edited by KC; 24-12-2013 at 03:00 PM.

  10. #10

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    ^This lightening of women's skin is similar to wealthy Afro/American women getting nose jobs etc. The ones in the spotlight seem to want a slimmer nose, higher cheekbones etc. a more 'european' look. It's too bad they want to change looks that are perfectly O.K.
    As for topless, not sure I would like to see someone parading around the malls like that but maybe there should be areas for topless/nudist sunbathers in Edmonton.
    I have no objection to women breastfeeding anywhere. People who complain need to get a life.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  11. #11

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    ^ "parading"

    I would guess that in some cultures, a similar loaded word might be said of women not covering up their heads.

  12. #12

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    5.
    a continual passing by, as of people, objects, or events: the parade of pedestrians past the office; the parade of the seasons.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/parading

    I think keeping ones clothes on is a much more practical and safer way to go about your day than being nude. I'm not just talking about the weather. Think about all the jobs people are employed in then figure out how practical it would be to do them in the nude.
    Last edited by Gemini; 24-12-2013 at 04:37 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^This lightening of women's skin is similar to wealthy Afro/American women getting nose jobs etc. The ones in the spotlight seem to want a slimmer nose, higher cheekbones etc. a more 'european' look. It's too bad they want to change looks that are perfectly O.K.
    As for topless, not sure I would like to see someone parading around the malls like that but maybe there should be areas for topless/nudist sunbathers in Edmonton.
    I have no objection to women breastfeeding anywhere. People who complain need to get a life.

    I must admit, it never ceases to amaze me that some oddballs continue to find this offensive. I've even heard it referred to as "unnatural".
    "The only really positive thing one could say about Vancouver is, it’s not the rest of Canada." Oink (britishexpats.com)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    As for topless, not sure I would like to see someone parading around the malls like that but maybe there should be areas for topless/nudist sunbathers in Edmonton.
    I have a gender-free attitude to this in that I wish men would put their shirts on in public also.

    It's odd. But in many public environments, think the workplace, men are consistently more covered up than the women. And yet even though the parts are pretty much the same, women's chests are indecent but men's aren't.

    Eve
    <still chuckling about the "harlot" comment.>

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    Quote Originally Posted by IdriveaSubaru View Post
    I say we should stop the fetishization of womens bodies. Breasts aren't any more sexual than a male's chest. Men have just made them dirty. I love boobs, but according to nature they are milk sacks. That's about it.
    I don't entirely agree. Male and female mammaries are identical in most mammal species except during lactation. Permanently enlarged breasts in human females likely arose as a sexual signal.

    Quote Originally Posted by IdriveaSubaru View Post
    Society as a whole needs to stop caring so much about this sort of stuff.

    *I really see nothing wrong with nudism in general though in this climate you'd be stupid to attempt to be free ballin' outside right now..*
    I do agree with this. We need to stop the fetishization of sexualty in general.

  16. #16

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    You have got to admit that women use their boobs as a advantage to attract mates, otherwise they would not buy push up bras and deep plunging necklines to outdo their female competition.

    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 24-12-2013 at 06:30 PM.
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    I think this falls under the jurisdiction of public health. While I support breastfeeding in public, I think going topless should be treated in the same way as drinking. Restrict it to licensed areas.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  18. #18

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    ^^...have to admit...........nobody is denying it.

    Same for guys without shirts.

    Single guys 15-40 - topless to attract a mate
    Married guys 18 -40 - topless to show the other gals/guys what they are missing.
    Single or married guys 40 - 55 - just don't care any more.
    Guys 55 onward - care even less.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  19. #19

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    My point isn't that breasts can't be sexualized. It's that there is no need for them to be.

    If I can take my shirt off at a beach or when I am out tanning or just sitting in a friends backyard why can't my gf?

    It's the fetishization of sex, sexuality, and peoples bodies that is the problem here. *I am all for fetishes but we have to draw the line where people fetishize a body part to the point where it needs to be covered up, look at muslim nations (and yes this is a fair analogy, there are scholars who would say that it was the fetishization of long hair and lips that caused head scarves to be forced on women)*

    Women aren't the only ones who use their bodies, men do too. When I was in my teen years I worked out and was a national level athlete and I used that to my advantage in attracting girls. I did the same in univ, I knowingly did it (and upon later reflection of many crappy and failed relationships decided that using my abs and pecks to attract girls wasn't the best choice and decided emotional richness, intellectual brilliance and common interests are what make for good relationships *in my case* and I couldn't be happier). But if you've got it and you think you can work it many people will. If it's okay for a guy to lift his shirt up to show off his abs or chest, why can't a woman? If it's okay for a guy to lay on a beach and get a tan or just sit on his balcony/backyard or go for a drive wearing shoes and shorts why can't a woman?

    As for the 10,000 years of human form worship, well, we thought the earth was flat at the center of the universe and everything rotated around it and that women are emotional too fragile to work. Seems we've come a long way, has it not? The problem with the attitude of "well we've done it for 4000, 10000, 15000 years can't change now" is that is a defeatist attitude and reflects that we can't change *at best* and shouldn't change *at worst* when neither of those is the case....

  20. #20

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    If everyone walked around naked there would be no mystery anymore. It would just be an everyday occurrence. The mystery and the tease can be bought at Victoria Secret. If you are lucky 50% on boxing day. Most fetishes are jokes.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  21. #21

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    ^And that's the problem, people think you can by mystery and teasing by going to victoria secret and getting some crappy lingere. Purchases don't add those things.

  22. #22

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    Toplessness is all well and good until you realize that it would apply to all people including your 64 year old bookkeeper, who walks into your office on a hot day sans her blouse, all 280 pounds of her with her womanliness pointing due south.

    There is an advantage in keeping the mystery especially for preventing permanent retina burns.
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  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by IdriveaSubaru View Post
    ^And that's the problem, people think you can by mystery and teasing by going to victoria secret and getting some crappy lingere. Purchases don't add those things.
    A painting does not need a frame but framing it can make it much more appealing to the viewer.

    A car performs the same no matter what color but a red sports car just looks faster.

    Even my dog looks better in a bandana.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Toplessness is all well and good until you realize that it would apply to all people including your 64 year old bookkeeper, who walks into your office on a hot day sans her blouse, all 280 pounds of her with her womanliness pointing due south.

    There is an advantage in keeping the mystery especially for preventing permanent retina burns.
    Men don't go to office jobs shirtless, so why would women? I think some relaxation of office dress codes for summer would be a good thing, but I think both genders should still be covered from mid-thigh to armpit in any sort of professional environment.
    Otherwise, what makes a saggy, overweight woman worse to look at than a saggy, overweight man?

  25. #25

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    I don't care how anyone looks naked. That's just judgmental BS. Who cares what they look like. What a stupid way to see the world.

    If they are 280lbs of stretchy and floppy whatever, well, that's their body. You don't have to look and you sure as hell have no right to be a judgmental jerk about it..

    And I think your dog looks stupid with a bandana, I think all dogs look stupid with bandanas.. So there's that. *see being judgmental is idiotic*

  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by IdriveaSubaru View Post
    ^And that's the problem, people think you can by mystery and teasing by going to victoria secret and getting some crappy lingere. Purchases don't add those things.
    Victoria Secret is crappy lingerie and yet you see fetishes as not as crappy.
    What is so nice about seeing someone all in leather sweating like a bad cheese, cracking a whip like they are herding cows and wearing a mask like the Lone Ranger. Add to that a big stomach and huge *****. In leather that just looks like two pigs fighting for supremacy. The dog in the bandana is more appealing than that.
    Last edited by Gemini; 25-12-2013 at 01:16 AM.
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  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    Men don't go to office jobs shirtless, so why would women? I think some relaxation of office dress codes for summer would be a good thing, but I think both genders should still be covered from mid-thigh to armpit in any sort of professional environment.
    Otherwise, what makes a saggy, overweight woman worse to look at than a saggy, overweight man?
    So you agree that there should be limits to what people wear or not wear in various places. I don't see any problem with women being topless at the beach or in certain places and have been to many places where women walked and worked freely topless and even bottomless.
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    Of course there are limits to what people wear or not wear in various places. Even the militant topless types agree to that. You were the one that indicated that if the law were changed to introduce parity that your bookkeeper would be showing up to work topless.

    Eve

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    You have got to admit that women use their boobs as a advantage to attract mates, otherwise they would not buy push up bras and deep plunging necklines to outdo their female competition.
    I don't really agree, I think its more about status with other women. Its a bit like how guys like to have the biggest biceps, its called doing "curls for girls", but its as much about respect from other guys.

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    If it was just to attract mates, that wouldn't explain the dress code by certain women in an all-female workforce. Something I've observed many times.

    Eve

  31. #31

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    I find women can be more competitive than men when it comes to outdoing each other in clothing or makeup even when men are not around. Even in offices where women are dominant, just watch when the IT guy comes in and suddenly there is all sorts of private discussions about the new guy. Just watch the office talk between women when one of their coworkers comes to the office in a slightly low cut top or some multicolored yoga pants that should have been left at home. You can hear them sharpening their claws. Compare that to most male dominated places other than a large office, where the standard is jeans and a rough beard.
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 26-12-2013 at 09:24 AM.
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  33. #33

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    Interesting current article...

    The Social and Legal Arguments for Allowing Women to Go Topless in Public - Jessica Blankenship - The Atlantic

    Excerpt:

    "The idea that female toplessness is somehow different from male toplessness is clearly deeply embedded in our collective social psyche.
    This argument, in fact, came up in a landmark case in 1986, when nine women were arrested in Rochester, New York, for being topless in an isolated park, at a time when the state had a law forbidding female toplessness.

    Judge Herman Walz, one of the first to hear the case, which took six years before being settled finally by the New York State Court of Appeals, wrote in his decision that “the statute's objective is to protect the public from invasions of its sensibilities, and merely reflects current community standards as to what constitutes nudity. The objective itself is not based on stereotyped notions, therefore it is not illegitimate.” He also wrote that “community standards do not deem the exposure of males' breasts offensive, therefore the state does not have an interest in preventing exposure of the males' breasts.” "


    http://www.theatlantic.com/national/...public/279755/

  34. #34

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    My wife and I drive around all summer topless..

    Haven't had any issues yet.

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    ^^ There have been discriminatory ideas "deeply embedded in our collective social psyche" for as long as there has been a "collective social psyche". That does not justify continuing them. Women should be allowed to go topless anywhere men are allowed to go topless.

  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    ^^ There have been discriminatory ideas "deeply embedded in our collective social psyche" for as long as there has been a "collective social psyche". That does not justify continuing them. Women should be allowed to go topless anywhere men are allowed to go topless.
    yup just because bigotry, ignorance and discrimination were acceptable at one point doesn't mean we should continue with the status quo.

  37. #37

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    ^ Exactly! So when is it ok to discriminate?

    That is, where do we need to rethink our own unquestioned assumptions?

    i.e. For instance, should the voting age be reduced or should those under 18 be allowed to vote under certain conditions?

    What I generally observe is that people are quite selfish and fight for equal rights where they themselves are disadvantaged, but don't hesitate to accept if not further equally abhorrent discrimination against other groups. They simply lack empathy or cannot walk in others shoes.

    http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/forum...t=Discriminate


    Milton Glaser pointed this out in his discussion of how we are all tribal by nature.
    .
    Last edited by KC; 27-12-2013 at 11:01 AM.

  38. #38

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    Right, no discrimination whatsoever

    Why do seniors and children get to see the same movie for less than me?
    All washrooms and locker rooms should be unisex
    Job interviews and resumes should be banned as a discriminatory practice
    Any child should have the right to drive as long as they can reach the peddles
    Eliminate all competitive sports
    Eliminate the discriminatory practice of Old Age Security
    Eliminate child support payments

    [quoting Scrooge] Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?

    Fascist ideas on uniform dress codes


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  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Right, no discrimination whatsoever

    Why do seniors and children get to see the same movie for less than me?
    All washrooms and locker rooms should be unisex
    Job interviews and resumes should be banned as a discriminatory practice
    Any child should have the right to drive as long as they can reach the peddles
    Eliminate all competitive sports
    Eliminate the discriminatory practice of Old Age Security
    Eliminate child support payments

    [quoting Scrooge] Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?

    Fascist ideas on uniform dress codes
    1. Seniors and children are less likely to go see a movie then the 18-45 age range group. Siscounts encourage people to bring older people along and to take their kids to films. Nothing to do with discrimination and everything to do with economics and what pricing a market segment will bear.

    2. There are some areas of research that say that most bathrooms should be unisex. Though due to personal experiences some people may be afraid of that idea (see women who have suffered from sexual violence). Likely not to happen because of prudish ideals.

    3. Not discriminatory at all but just poorly done in general. Resumes don't tell you much usually and unless the interviewer has a very strongly developed skill set regarding interpersonal communications and situational awareness for emotions (an empath as it were), then most interviews can be skewed in all sorts of ways. Non-verbal or non face to face communications (example: phone calls, skype, IM, emails) can work well for people who have public speaking fears, or issues in relation to social phobias. As an employer (and someone skilled at reading people) I don't take just what a resume or a single interview has to offer. Usually my first interaction with someone regarding a job is a resume but I have lots of flexibility in whom I will hire if they show promise regardless of experience or education. My interviews are never "come into my office sit in front of my giant desk as I loom over you and hound you with questions" I usually go for coffee with someone. Set a spot that they are relaxed in. Hell I did an interview at the muttart conserv once because the person I was interviewing had severe social phobia and felt comfortable there. She now works as one of my lab techs and is awesome, shy, but coming out of her shell. I bet if I hadn't accommodated her needs the interview would have been incredibly challenging for her. I know the areas I hire for so I can tell if someone understands the topic. I also don't discriminate based upon perceived enthusiasm. I have met more than my share of surly folks in this profession and that's just their nature. I like my work place to be happy but I also want the best. Sometimes there is a compromise there. But there is no discrimination in my hiring practices (and I have to deal with some really strange people because of the sorts of lab geeks *myself included* who do this kind of work), so sometimes finding a person to hire can be a weird process. I also need to verify they have the skills they claim. No discrimination there, someone could die, equipment destroyed that has been built by us that is priceless, or research ruined that could cost patient lives down the road or failure of the company, so yeah I need to vet people.

    4. Wut...??? Children don't have the decision making skills, or motor skills to be safe drivers. The biggest factor is emotional immaturity and the lack of understanding that the mechanical beast they are in can inflict serious damage. Consequence reasoning doesn't exist and takes years to fully develop (and mid teens is about when it starts to factor into decision making). The safety of others versus the convenience of others isn't a discriminatory practice. Kids don't have the mental or physical skills necessary, this could kill people. Simple choice there.

    5. Competition is fine, some people aren't physically capable of being top heap in professional sports. Doesn't mean that is discriminatory. Everyone can be amazing at a sport regardless of their physical or mental abilities (see para/special olympics).

    6. Ageism is a problem on both fronts. People get forced into retirement because of perceived issues with their age. If someone can perform the tasks assigned to them who cares how old they are. Competency is important. But we as a society have a job to help the weak, infirm and those who can no longer support themselves. Everyone has something to add (see #5) so helping those out who are less fortunate is something that needs to be done. Society as a whole benefits. Social programs that are well run and well developed lead to communities that are eclectic, vibrant, and health with high levels of quality of life (research proves this). They also benefit an entire society as people can feel valued and will have more means to put back in. If you invest in people they will invest in themselves and then give back to the world as a whole (again research supports this).

    7. Child support payments as they stand and the practice is stupid. Anti-male in lots of cases and just generally poorly setup. I could spend weeks writing out crap about how to fix it. But yes, it's just broken. Lots needs to be done here.


    Here's something you don't seem to be getting. Discrimination happens when someone is not chosen/supported/whatever versus other people because of arbitrary things (speech patterns, style of dress, hair colour, race, ethnicity, sexuality), despite having equal or better skills and competency. A kid not being allowed to drive is not discriminatory because they lack the necessary competencies to do so safely. If two people are equal in terms of skills and one person is chosen over another because of looks you run into problems (unless of course there is a specific visual requirement of that person *models*). But that doesn't necessarily imply discrimination. There needs to be a derogatory approach to that arbitrary value, their needs to be a malevolence or ignorance or something that causes the person making the decision to view that aspect as negative because it is associated with a whole group of people. The gist of this is that it doesn't matter how you choose someone but your intentions. I may not choose someone to work in a part of lab because they are messy because that could be dangerous. I may not choose someone who is blind to run certain experiments because again dangerous. If you hire a secretary because of how good she looks versus someone else (all skills being equal) you are being potentially discriminatory. Unless of course your secretary is part of a set of assets that lure clients in (in some business models that is how this works), then not necessarily discriminatory at that level but means that that particular business model is outdated (and without being cautious could get messy).

    Essentially you are painting black and white scenarios in a world with a giant grey spectrum. Discrimination only at it's most overt can easily be pointed out (and yes that happens a lot) but more subtle forms of it also have situational nuance. Societal norms change. For job related things competency is important. Should everyone get a shot, sure, but there are limitations that need to be imposed by the very nature of what is required out of someone. A physically disabled person should probably not be a fire fighter, could the drive the truck sure, but actually going in and rescuing and fire fighting is dangerous and without the full range of movement - climbing, crawling, running, jumping, lifting huge weight, pulling and pushing, swinging, etc. You could compromise the rescuing of someone and in a situation where seconds can save lives someone who has a physical disability that impedes that shouldn't be doing that job. That being said if the person is physically disabled but is just as capable at doing that job then by all means they should be given the opportunity to try it - even if it is being a rescue fire fighter.

    So to sum up:
    1. Competency important
    2. Arbitrary values mean nothing and shouldn't be used to judge
    3. Social support is important
    4. Everyone should be given a chance
    5. Strawman arguments and black and white arguments are a waste of time


    BAM

  40. #40

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    ^ "Why do seniors and children get to see the same movie for less than me?" Not if there is a topless male. Oh, sorry topless female.

    And actually, those seniors that were around in the 1920s may have seen nudity on film that you were not allowed to see not too many years ago because the morality squad banned it in the 1930s, 40s, 50s, 60s.... Apparently they banned female skin depictions to the point that if there were even images of belly buttons, it was considered obscene. Curiously, a lot of violence in movies and TV was acceptable.



    Check out the rather amazing but obsolete "Don'ts and Be Carefuls" list at the link below... I bet every single person reading this thread would be in agreement to the continuance of some of the listed items. That's why there are no simple answers to these questions.



    Motion Picture Production Code
    excerpt:

    "Don'ts and Be Carefuls"

    "The Code enumerated a number of key points known as the "Don'ts" and "Be Carefuls":[16]

    "Resolved, That those things which are included in the following list shall not appear in pictures produced by the members of this Association, irrespective of the manner in which they are treated:

    1. Pointed profanity..."
    ...
    11. ..."

    "And be it further resolved, That special care be exercised in the manner in which the following subjects are treated, to the end that vulgarity and suggestiveness may be eliminated and that good taste may be emphasized:

    1. The use of the flag;
    ...
    25. ..."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_...roduction_Code


    .
    Last edited by KC; 27-12-2013 at 01:41 PM.

  41. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by EveB View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    As for topless, not sure I would like to see someone parading around the malls like that but maybe there should be areas for topless/nudist sunbathers in Edmonton.
    I have a gender-free attitude to this in that I wish men would put their shirts on in public also.

    It's odd. But in many public environments, think the workplace, men are consistently more covered up than the women. And yet even though the parts are pretty much the same, women's chests are indecent but men's aren't.

    Eve
    <still chuckling about the "harlot" comment.>

    HARLOT

    excerpt:

    "harlot·ry (-l-tr) n.
    Word History: The word harlot nowadays refers to a particular kind of woman, but interestingly it used to refer to a particular kind of ..."

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/harlot

  42. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Toplessness is all well and good until you realize that it would apply to all people including your 64 year old bookkeeper, who walks into your office on a hot day sans her blouse, all 280 pounds of her with her womanliness pointing due south.

    There is an advantage in keeping the mystery especially for preventing permanent retina burns.

    Just letting this thread bounce around a bit...

    24 December 2013

    The perils of being fat, female and French
    By Joanna Robertson, Paris

    excerpts:

    "It's how it works for women here," Isabelle explains. "If you are fat, you will not get that job. But if you have the silhouette - chic, ultra-slim, elegant - you are more or less made."...


    "Most of the pressure French women feel to be thin comes from other French women and a society that has zero-tolerance for fat."...

    "It is an absolute tyranny," says Marjorie, a 49-year-old business executive, herself pencil slim.

    "The tyranny of the silhouette, we call it - but it is also a kind of dream because it represents total success.

    "It is not like in the UK where..."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25215641
    Last edited by KC; 27-12-2013 at 01:56 PM.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Right, no discrimination whatsoever

    Why do seniors and children get to see the same movie for less than me?
    All washrooms and locker rooms should be unisex
    Job interviews and resumes should be banned as a discriminatory practice
    Any child should have the right to drive as long as they can reach the peddles
    Eliminate all competitive sports
    Eliminate the discriminatory practice of Old Age Security
    Eliminate child support payments
    Certainly there are occasions where discrimination is justified, but we need to examine the relevance of the justification in each case.

    Minimum age limits for drinking, driving, voting, etc. are a means of establishing the ability to take responsibility for one's actions. Likewise with requirements for parents to support their children. It is a very simple, but crude method with only a modest correlation compared to the alternatives that probably should be revised in some cases.

    Age-based discounts are a bit of a grey area that is hard to generalize, but I do think senior discounts sometimes go too far. Seniors shouldn't be paying less than children.

    Unisex washrooms and change rooms are a good idea - why should privacy suddenly become less important just because all of the strangers around you happen to be the same sex?

    Not sure how resumes and job interviews are an unjustified form of discrimination when the intent is to assess the skills of the candidate, although resumes are typically filled with BS and interviewers are too often asking questions unrelated to the skill and knowledge requirements of the position. Perhaps there should be greater use of probationary employment periods to assess job skills.

    Discrimination in sports is also justifiable when the basis of exclusion is an individuals skill in the game.

    Back to topless women at the beach, park, swimming pool, sidewalk, etc., I can't see how prohibiting the practice when men are allowed to go topless is justifiable. It isn't a safety hazard, it doesn't inconvenience anyone, it doesn't lower the quality of competition. It is as silly as prohibiting women from showing any other part of their anatomy that is differently proportioned from the corresponding male parts that are not considered "indecent".

  44. #44

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    PRT is absolutely right. Of course there is acceptable discrimination. It's all around us. And despite what Subaru says, all those examples are technically discriminatory, although most would agree they are justified, which is why we don't start threads on them.

    Topless men vs women is another example of discrimination, which in the past was generally acceptable but now is becoming an issue for some people. But if equality is the issue maybe the solution is not to allow women to go topless, but instead to also deny men the right to go topless. Chests are sexual body parts, after all, for both sexes.

    If on the other hand we deem women walking around topless downtown in full view of our children as being acceptable, then it logically follows that there is no reason to deny those same children entry into certain x-rated movies. Is that the road we want to go down?

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    ^ Every body part has been displayed and used in a sexual manner at some point. By your logic we should all be wearing burkas whenever we leave the house. I prefer to counter inequalities by granting rights to those that don't have them instead of removing rights from those that do.

    As for the non-sequitur about kids watching porn, nudity and sexuality are not the same thing and kids that are old enough to be interested are already finding all the porn they want on the internet.

  46. #46

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    Oh, well if they can see it on the internet anyway then I guess we should just make public sex acceptable too, because there is clearly no point in hiding anything. And besides, we wouldn't want to discriminate against the voyeurs and exhibitionists.

    And as long as we're going down that road, why draw the line anywhere? Why don't we just allow people to do whatever they please, wherever and whenever? It's not like respect or consideration of others has any value anymore. If people don't like it we'll just call them "intolerant". That should shut them up.

  47. #47

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    wow vince, you don't get it do you?

    Nudity and sexuality are not the same thing.

    And prt's list of stuff was either completely illogical in terms of discrimination or when looked at logically could be discriminatory but perhaps not. Seriously competitive sports are discriminatory?? If you think that's the case you don't understand what discrimination is. The only thing that remotely approaches discrimination is child support payments and in general divorce proceedings but those are rapidly changing. Kids (like 5 year olds) not being allowed to drive? THAT'S discriminatory??? Lol...

    Honestly believe what you want but there are facts to some of these things too. Whether you want to see them or not.

    Also there is enough research to show that kids that have a healthy exposure to good sex education when the are much younger and brought up in an environment where sex is openly discussed, isn't perverse or dirty, isn't hidden or shunned covered up the sexual choices they make are much healthier. They have better relationships, both emotionally and sexually (romantic relationships that is). And when exposed to sex, sex ed, and the human body as something to be respected not hidden and fetishized these kids grow up to be far sexually healthier than those in some ignorant landscape where nudity is bad... Simple as that. Don't want to believe, well science says you're wrong. I will go where the science is not where 18th century religious pious nonsense continues to undermine healthy behaviour...

    I reallllly don't feel like debating this topic anymore. So peace. :S

  48. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by IdriveaSubaru View Post
    And prt's list of stuff was either completely illogical in terms of discrimination or when looked at logically could be discriminatory but perhaps not. Seriously competitive sports are discriminatory?? If you think that's the case you don't understand what discrimination is.
    FACTS ARE STRANGER THAN FICTION...

    Some schools have abolished or heavily altered sports days on the grounds that they are too competitive and may damage pupils' self esteem. This often reflects the schools' attitude towards competitive sports or competitiveness in general. This view has been condemned as "political correctness" by many commentators, notably by journalist Melanie Phillips in her 1996 book All Must Have Prizes

    In June 2005, Country Life magazine published a report claiming that school sports days have become excessively competitive due to overbearing and "over-zealous" parents, who place too much pressure on their children to succeed. The report also revealed that many schools have banned "mothers and fathers" races due to fighting and cheating.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sports_day

    No winners: Children still keeping score despite move to end sports competition
    One Saturday morning this summer, four Ontario soccer teams squared off for a total of eight games, pitting players dressed in red, navy, orange and black jerseys against one another as they vied for … nothing.

    There were no ribbons or trophies because this was a soccer festival — not a tournament — and the emphasis was on fun and skills development, not winning. There were no standings, either, because nobody kept score.

    Supposedly.
    http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/09...s-competition/

    School Bans: 20 Weird Things That Have Been Banned At Schools
    http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/08...n_1797858.html
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  49. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by IdriveaSubaru View Post
    wow vince, you don't get it do you?

    Nudity and sexuality are not the same thing.

    And prt's list of stuff was either completely illogical in terms of discrimination or when looked at logically could be discriminatory but perhaps not.
    Actually, I think you're the one who doesn't get it. Of course nudity and sexuality are not the same thing. I was making the point that there needs to be a line drawn somewhere and you argued that there is no point because they can see it on the internet anyway. I merely took your logic a step further to illustrate how ridiculous it is.

    And PRT's list was purposely ridiculous to make the point that "technically" a lot of things that we don't think of as discrimination, because they make sense to us, are in fact discrimination. Nobody is arguing that those forms of discrimination should be abolished, but rather that in some cases to discriminate is the right thing to do. That's the point.

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    I agree there should be a line drawn somewhere. But there already is. Men don't show up for office jobs shirtless. Most food establishments require the wearing of shirt and shoes. You don't need laws so much as a sorting through of customs.

    Until the 50s, it was not unusual, for instance, for women to breastfeed in public. Even in the 50s and 60s, a woman could breastfeed as long as she was reasonably discreet about it (using a shawl for instance). The militancy (on both sides) is a recent thing waiting for custom to figure out the rules.

    Eve

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Toplessness is all well and good until you realize that it would apply to all people including your 64 year old bookkeeper, who walks into your office on a hot day sans her blouse, all 280 pounds of her with her womanliness pointing due south.

    There is an advantage in keeping the mystery especially for preventing permanent retina burns.



  52. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IdriveaSubaru View Post
    wow vince, you don't get it do you?

    Nudity and sexuality are not the same thing.

    And prt's list of stuff was either completely illogical in terms of discrimination or when looked at logically could be discriminatory but perhaps not.
    Actually, I think you're the one who doesn't get it. Of course nudity and sexuality are not the same thing. I was making the point that there needs to be a line drawn somewhere and you argued that there is no point because they can see it on the internet anyway. I merely took your logic a step further to illustrate how ridiculous it is.

    And PRT's list was purposely ridiculous to make the point that "technically" a lot of things that we don't think of as discrimination, because they make sense to us, are in fact discrimination. Nobody is arguing that those forms of discrimination should be abolished, but rather that in some cases to discriminate is the right thing to do. That's the point.
    Then you have no clue what discrimination ACTUALLY is.. Simple as that.

    There is real discrimination then there is thought experiments that fall on their face. Movie ticket prices don't cause suicides, unemployment, etc. Kids not being able to drive, same bit. Discrimination has a definable social, mental/emotional and physical impact on the people who suffer from it. You guys are just blowing around semantic arguments that have no relevance to the real world.

    So I really have no desire to argue with people who don't get the core tenants of what discrimination is. Discrimination isn't the same thing as fairness, learn the difference. 'Cause right now both of you are arguing discrimination based upon fairness. There are lots of things that aren't fair but that has nothing to do with discrimination, stop saying they are the same thing because they aren't and just waters down what discrimination is.

    Saying women aren't the same as men because their bodies have been fetishized IS discrimination. Not paying the same movie tickets as a senior isn't discrimination it's just unfair (to you).

  53. #53

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    Maybe you should just check a dictionary.

  54. #54

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    Oxford definition

    the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex:

    Contrary to IDSubaru, age is listed as an example. Just because you are a mature 14 year old who is 5'10" tall you cannot drive a car but if you are a 75 year old who never drove before and are only 4 ft tall, you can take a test and drive the same day. In my mind that is discrimination because it prejudges the youth. Insurance companies regularly discriminate against young, careful drivers. Try renting a car even if you drive for a living but are only 19.
    Ageism is a defined form of discrimination. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ageism and is also defined in the Canadian Criminal Code
    In Canada, Article 718.2, clause (a)(i), of the Criminal Code defines as aggravating circumstances, among other situations, “evidence that the offence was motivated by ....age”.
    Mandatory retirement was ended in Canada in December 2011, but 74% of Canadians still consider age discrimination to be a problem.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination


    Renting a Car Under the Age of 25
    By Elizabeth Hannigan , last updated December 22, 2011
    You have been driving for nearly ten years, but for some reason, most car rental companies are not interested in renting you a car if you are under the age of 25. You may find this hard to believe, since you can buy a gun or get married when you are only 18 years old and you can drink alcohol when you are 21, but car rental companies are legally allowed to discriminate against young adult drivers. If you are less than 21 years old, it is extremely difficult for you to rent a car and if you are under 18, you can forget it.
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 31-12-2013 at 08:38 AM.
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  55. #55

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    So wherever men can go topless, should women also be able to go topless in the eyes of the public?


    Or, if kids have been exposed to full leg nudity of girls in swimming pools should less leg nudity (short shorts, dresses, skirts, etc.) in school be a non issue?



    . Legality and school policy aside, what would an enlightened society think? However, that doesn't really matter as there will always be peer pressure. From one of my posts (see below) on another thread, it's obvious women will be pretty unforgiving of any transgressions of social norms so the feminist-equality-fairness rights issue really doesn't matter in the real world.




    TWO out of THIRTY SEVEN WOMEN DID NOT make critical comments! It's truly amazing.



    [QUOTE=KC;485474]
    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bear View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post

    I.e. There was a study done last year where women were monitored as a nurse or someone entered a room dressed in either skimpy or standard dress. They said that in all but 2 cases of something like 37 women, the women all made disparaging comments among themselves on the lady when in skimpy dress. They joked that the only two women not to comment, were likely too busy with their blackberries to notice. .

    Yes,...
    Last edited by KC; 31-12-2013 at 12:49 PM.

  56. #56

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    Dang!

    No more bare chested Iggy Pop concerts?



    Does he have to put his teeth back in too?
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  57. #57

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    When is it acceptable for men to go topless? - Telegraph
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/the-f...o-topless.html

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    I still often work without my shirt. I'm in flooring and still like to go out installing when I can and it just gets too hot and uncomfortable sometimes to keep a shirt on. I also seldom wear a shirt while at the inlaws in southern Vietnam at 9th parallel with the humidity it's usually in the 40s normally or the 50s on a hot day (with humidex). I look pretty (ugly) with just suspenders and no shirt but no ones ever complained

  59. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    When is it acceptable for men to go topless? - Telegraph
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/the-f...o-topless.html
    If you are "sorting it out".

  60. #60

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    It's one of those issues that fascinates me because it seems that it should be such a non issue. (Like gay marriage, gay rights, women's rights, equal rights for all races, equal opportunity, etc. one just wonders what's the big deal and why are some people so against giving others the freedom's they ha e or would want for themselves.) So I think today's female teens have a great point about dress codes. It's not their problem. Men have to start being accountable and take ownership of their problems. It's a fascinating but messy issue with all our ingrained 'Victorian' prudishness as well as religious edicts, etc. As for dress codes being preparation for the work world, I don't totally buy that argument. If a kid showed up in work boots and a hardhat would that be applauded?

    Anyway here's some of the interesting stories in the news, with teasers quoted:



    The dress code dilemma: Your boner isn’t my problem - The Independent Florida Alligator: Columns
    excerpt:
    "It makes sense, though. Most dress codes are gendered, just as this one, which highlights the double standards against women in terms of clothes and body exposure.
    Many dress codes or standards of dress are stricter toward women because women’s bodies are seen as public property. It’s more acceptable for men to dictate what is appropriate for women to wear and do, as the male chaperones did to Clare, than for a female to do the reverse. "
    http://www.alligator.org/opinion/col...9bb2963f4.html

    Saskatoon woman says police vice squad accused her of being an unlicensed stripper on a girls’ night out | National Post

    "Melody Sterner says she just wanted to enjoy a carefree night of dancing when she headed to Rock Bottom dressed in short-shorts, fishnet stockings and a T-shirt last April. Police found her outfit especially provocative and seemed convinced that she and a friend were paid strippers, she said."
    http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/06...rls-night-out/


    Man who was asked to cover up arm tattoos at nightclub says men are unfairly targeted | The Australian
    “So I wore my jacket again and it was very embarrassing and frustrating not only for me but my wife as we were enjoying ourselves and not making any trouble.

    “All this time, we saw women with tattoos on their bodies who were not asked to cover up or leave. The pub seems to be selective in whom they ask to cover up.”
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news...-1226941762695



    Quebec teen ‘shamed’ for jean shorts becomes latest in wave of students protesting dress code | National Post
    excerpt:
    "Two VPs walked into the art studio, and asked the Grade 11 students to stand up with their arms by their sides. Anyone whose shorts did not reach their fingertips was deemed to be in violation."
    http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/05...ng-dress-code/

    You can change a school dress code, but it won't change the world girls face | Cory Kahaney theguardian.com
    excerpt:
    "I want a better world for girls, but I also see the point of a dress code in school. While there is no question that more must be done to stop men from objectifying women, requiring girls to dress in ways that are situationally appropriate (in this case, for class) need not be mutually exclusive to that cause. It is a slippery slope when we trot out such a serious plague on our society to protest a reasonable school edict."
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...s-code-defense

    Dress codes and the blame game - Columnists - The Telegram
    excerpt:
    "In February 2011, a Manitoba judge decided a convicted rapist would not go to jail because the latest complainant had sent signals that “sex was in the air.” Justice Robert Dewar noted that the 26-year-old woman and her girlfriend were wearing tube tops with no bras, high heels and plenty of makeup at the time."
    http://www.thetelegram.com/Opinion/C...e-blame-game/1

    Hijab is part of a dress code - Community - The News
    http://www.ngnews.ca/Community/2014-...a-dress-code/1
    Last edited by KC; 04-06-2014 at 02:28 PM.

  61. #61

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    Sorry, if you work in a lawyers office, tie dyed shirts and yoga pants are not appropriate and could get you fired if you do not follow a corporate dress code. Police patrolling the streets in hoodies and gold chains carrying guns on their hip, just scares people. Just look at http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/ and you get the idea.

    Schools are not only to teach you the 3 R's but also solical skills and how to get along with people.

    About the Quebec girl, I do agree that the VP should not have publicly shamed her, that was inappropriate. But also there must be a dress code otherwise you would not believe what some students will wear just to push people's buttons.
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    I also think we're conflating two separate issues.

    I'm thinking of the "bra strap" case where the father talks about how it's up to the rest of the class to control themselves and if his daughter gets raped it's on the rapist and not on his daughter (this is correct).

    However, I saw what that girl was wearing and I thought of respect for one's surroundings. I consider education to be a serious enterprise. In many ways, it is rehearsal for one's future career. The girl is showing disrespect to the class by not bothering to at least attempt to dress decently for class.

    This is not my approach to another case where a young woman was ejected from her prom because one or more of the dads found her too enticing. I saw the picture of that dress and it was a shortened, very elegant version of a prom dress but still something that is appropriate for an evening event (in fact it looked more conservative than some outfits I've seen). In this case, the school was wrong.

    Eve

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    ^^ How is the dress code in the lawyers office relevant to a school? More high school students will go on to work on industrial sites where they will be send home if they don't have appropriate protective equipment. Does that mean we should make them wear steel toe boots, coveralls and hardhats to class?

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    Appropriate modes of dress are very cultural, context and generationally sensitive. Thirty years ago I would have had to wear a suit and tie to my job. Now I can wear jeans and a t-shirt.

    As for the role of school in teaching social skills and getting along with people, those are very flexible concepts and I would give a stronger role to parents in decided what their children are taught in terms of social skills.

    The odd thing in terms of dress codes is I think they're becoming more restrictive. I don't remember any particular dress codes when I was in school and based on the pictures I've seen none of the outfits rejected would have been a big deal.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  65. #65

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    Women wearing trousers in the Western world after 1900
    Excerpt:

    "During World War I, women wore their husbands' (suitably altered) trousers while they took on jobs previously assigned to men, and increasingly wore trousers as leisurewear in the 1920s and 30s. And for a period in the 1970s, trousers became quite fashionable for women. In the United States, this may be due to the passage of Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972, which ruled that dresses could not be required of girls. Dress codes changed in public schools across the United States."...

    "In 1919, Luisa Capetillo challenged the mainstream society by becoming the first woman in Puerto Rico to wear trousers in public. Capetillo was sent to jail for what was then considered to be a "crime", but, the judge later dropped the charges against her."...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_w...rld_after_1900

  66. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    ...
    The odd thing in terms of dress codes is I think they're becoming more restrictive. I don't remember any particular dress codes when I was in school and based on the pictures I've seen none of the outfits rejected would have been a big deal.

    I hadn't realized that geeky glasses were mandatory for all males in the 60s. Maybe they served to blur their view of women's knees and ankles and so lessened their hormonal response. Oh, and a male smiling was verboten.

    Last edited by KC; 06-06-2014 at 12:32 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    ...
    The odd thing in terms of dress codes is I think they're becoming more restrictive. I don't remember any particular dress codes when I was in school and based on the pictures I've seen none of the outfits rejected would have been a big deal.

    I hadn't realized that geeky glasses were mandatory for all males in the 60s. Maybe they served to blur their view of women's knees and ankles and so lessened their hormonal response. Oh, and a male smiling was verboten.

    The could be my mother's grad picture.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  68. #68

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    Seems that every yardstick misses an inch or two, if not a mile:

    Natural hair advocates take on the US Army

    "These updated regulations were very discriminatory," Democratic Congresswoman Barbara Lee told the BBC. "They used words such as 'unkempt' and 'matted' when referring to traditional hairstyles worn by women of colour.”

    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27626509

  69. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    ...
    The odd thing in terms of dress codes is I think they're becoming more restrictive. I don't remember any particular dress codes when I was in school and based on the pictures I've seen none of the outfits rejected would have been a big deal.

    I hadn't realized that geeky glasses were mandatory for all males in the 60s. Maybe they served to blur their view of women's knees and ankles and so lessened their hormonal response. Oh, and a male smiling was verboten.

    The could be my mother's grad picture.
    Happier times at lakeforest, before the strict male dress code mandating geeky glasses was instituted:


  70. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by IdriveaSubaru View Post
    I say we should stop the fetishization of womens bodies. Breasts aren't any more sexual than a male's chest. Men have just made them dirty.
    I don't believe that's true, I'm no sociologist, but I'm pretty sure that you like breasts because they're aesthetically pleasing and feel great to both you and your partner. The idea that we choose women with larger breast sizes because it means they will have plenty of milk for our children is true, but I think they're also a sexual interest factor, and always have/will be.

  71. #71

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    Oh, for sure. To pretend that women's breasts aren't sexual is like pretending pizza doesn't taste good. Even small pizzas taste good.

  72. #72
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    ^ Every body part could be considered sexually attractive by someone. Many body parts can be considered sexually attractive by a majority with the appropriate sexual orientation. Why should people be able to publicly display some and not others?

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Seems that every yardstick misses an inch or two, if not a mile:

    Natural hair advocates take on the US Army

    "These updated regulations were very discriminatory," Democratic Congresswoman Barbara Lee told the BBC. "They used words such as 'unkempt' and 'matted' when referring to traditional hairstyles worn by women of colour.”

    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27626509
    As I understand it, the traditional military buzz cut was intended to prevent an enemy from being able to grab a soldier's hair in hand to hand combat. Why not use a similar, functional requirement today and apply it to all soldiers of both genders? A hairstyle that impairs your ability to carry out your duties should be unacceptable, but any hairstyle that does not reduce your effectiveness in your training or combat role should be fine.

  74. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    ^ Every body part could be considered sexually attractive by someone. Many body parts can be considered sexually attractive by a majority with the appropriate sexual orientation. Why should people be able to publicly display some and not others?
    Which leads me to wonder if fetishes are due to cultural masking of parts, or if they are primal as well.

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    Judging by various cases in Ontario, BC and Saskatchewan it would probably be okay legally to go topless. However none of the cases have made it to the Supreme Court so there is no definitive ruling yet.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topfreedom_in_Canada

  76. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by thisiswilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    ^ Every body part could be considered sexually attractive by someone. Many body parts can be considered sexually attractive by a majority with the appropriate sexual orientation. Why should people be able to publicly display some and not others?
    Which leads me to wonder if fetishes are due to cultural masking of parts, or if they are primal as well.
    Just look at dress and body type in different cultures, different geographies and at different points in history. I suppose you could look at the largest fairly homogenous populations on earth and come up with some arbitrary "ideal" body type and dress as supposedly determined by thousands of years of "natural" selection. What would that be? China, India? Or the oldest: Africa?

    Skim an old National Geographic when the interest seemed to focus on lost and remote tribal peoples and you'll note that among many of them, or at least those the photographers sought out, found dress of any kind to sometimes be quite unnecessary. :-0


    ...AND, I just realized that they had National Geographics in my elementary school! Shouldn't it have been considered an "adult" publication by our standards? (what was it? Because they were African or South American it was allowed?) Same with art books, travel books, etc. showing european carvings and statutes.
    Last edited by KC; 12-06-2014 at 04:58 PM.

  77. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Seems that every yardstick misses an inch or two, if not a mile:

    Natural hair advocates take on the US Army

    "These updated regulations were very discriminatory," Democratic Congresswoman Barbara Lee told the BBC. "They used words such as 'unkempt' and 'matted' when referring to traditional hairstyles worn by women of colour.”

    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27626509
    As I understand it, the traditional military buzz cut was intended to prevent an enemy from being able to grab a soldier's hair in hand to hand combat. Why not use a similar, functional requirement today and apply it to all soldiers of both genders? A hairstyle that impairs your ability to carry out your duties should be unacceptable, but any hairstyle that does not reduce your effectiveness in your training or combat role should be fine.
    I hate the current regulations for this. why shouldn't men be able to have facial hair (well groomed) yes i understand gas attacks... but is that really likely in a non-combat role or when your not training to the same standard (not to mention navy officers can have beards...)

    and why shouldn't men with longer hair be allowed to keep it. and style it out of the way such as most women do? why do we even have different regulations between men and women when it comes to hair.. why not short hair, medium hair and long hair regulations blanketed..

  78. #78

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    On CBC radio today. Interesting, I've seen more skin-revealing swimsuit and underwear ads. However, amazingly people seemed to think this photo crossed the line.


    How did a piece of art change your life?
    Thursday, October 23, 2014

    "Petra Collins is a photographer and curator from Toronto. A lot of her work explores the reality of life as a teenage girl. Her art has been called 'unapologetically feminist' and at 22-years-old she already has a widely successful practice. But last year Petra posted a photo to her Instagram (the photo you see on the left) that caused her account to be deleted - throwing her into a whirlwind of controversy. Read Petra's response essay here. (Photo Courtesy: Petra Collins)"

    http://www.cbc.ca/dnto/episode/2014/...nge-your-life/


    Why Instagram Censored My Body
    Posted: 10/17/2013
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/petra-...b_4118416.html

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Himser View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Seems that every yardstick misses an inch or two, if not a mile:

    Natural hair advocates take on the US Army

    "These updated regulations were very discriminatory," Democratic Congresswoman Barbara Lee told the BBC. "They used words such as 'unkempt' and 'matted' when referring to traditional hairstyles worn by women of colour.”

    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27626509
    As I understand it, the traditional military buzz cut was intended to prevent an enemy from being able to grab a soldier's hair in hand to hand combat. Why not use a similar, functional requirement today and apply it to all soldiers of both genders? A hairstyle that impairs your ability to carry out your duties should be unacceptable, but any hairstyle that does not reduce your effectiveness in your training or combat role should be fine.
    I hate the current regulations for this. why shouldn't men be able to have facial hair (well groomed) yes i understand gas attacks... but is that really likely in a non-combat role or when your not training to the same standard (not to mention navy officers can have beards...)

    and why shouldn't men with longer hair be allowed to keep it. and style it out of the way such as most women do? why do we even have different regulations between men and women when it comes to hair.. why not short hair, medium hair and long hair regulations blanketed..
    We should have an entirely hairless military
    aka Jim Good; "The sooner you fall behind, the more time you have to catch up." - Steven Wright

  80. #80

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    Society disgusts me sometimes. but how do you force internet companies from enforcing arbitrary regulations in their terms of use agreements?

    i guess you could create a law saying internet blogs, videos and photo sharing is free speech and the company cannot censor it just like HP cannot censor what you print on its printer in your house, they may not link to it from their homepage but they cannot refuse to not host it or be accused of discrimination. ?

    i dont know.

    Jimbo; lol that could work. it would be equal :P

  81. #81

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    Toplessness - the one Victorian taboo that won't go away
    By Sara Sheridan 14 November 2014 BBC

    Excerpt:
    "When I talk at book festivals and libraries about the restrictions faced by our many times great grandmothers, audiences invariably find the stories amusing."...

    "Likewise, matters of dress were key. It is difficult now to understand (and very easy to laugh at) the horror with which women wearing trousers were once viewed. There is the comical 1920s story of Mrs Aubrey Le Blond,...."

    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-30052071


    '
    Last edited by KC; 15-11-2014 at 10:41 AM.

  82. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    It's one of those issues that fascinates me because it seems that it should be such a non issue. (Like gay marriage, gay rights, women's rights, equal rights for all races, equal opportunity, etc. one just wonders what's the big deal and why are some people so against giving others the freedom's they ha e or would want for themselves.) So I think today's female teens have a great point about dress codes. It's not their problem. Men have to start being accountable and take ownership of their problems. It's a fascinating but messy issue with all our ingrained 'Victorian' prudishness as well as religious edicts, etc. As for dress codes being preparation for the work world, I don't totally buy that argument. If a kid showed up in work boots and a hardhat would that be applauded?

    Anyway here's some of the interesting stories in the news, with teasers quoted:



    The dress code dilemma: Your boner isn’t my problem - The Independent Florida Alligator: Columns
    excerpt:
    "It makes sense, though. Most dress codes are gendered, just as this one, which highlights the double standards against women in terms of clothes and body exposure.
    Many dress codes or standards of dress are stricter toward women because women’s bodies are seen as public property. It’s more acceptable for men to dictate what is appropriate for women to wear and do, as the male chaperones did to Clare, than for a female to do the reverse. "
    http://www.alligator.org/opinion/col...9bb2963f4.html

    Saskatoon woman says police vice squad accused her of being an unlicensed stripper on a girls’ night out | National Post

    "Melody Sterner says she just wanted to enjoy a carefree night of dancing when she headed to Rock Bottom dressed in short-shorts, fishnet stockings and a T-shirt last April. Police found her outfit especially provocative and seemed convinced that she and a friend were paid strippers, she said."
    http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/06...rls-night-out/


    Man who was asked to cover up arm tattoos at nightclub says men are unfairly targeted | The Australian
    “So I wore my jacket again and it was very embarrassing and frustrating not only for me but my wife as we were enjoying ourselves and not making any trouble.

    “All this time, we saw women with tattoos on their bodies who were not asked to cover up or leave. The pub seems to be selective in whom they ask to cover up.”
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news...-1226941762695



    Quebec teen ‘shamed’ for jean shorts becomes latest in wave of students protesting dress code | National Post
    excerpt:
    "Two VPs walked into the art studio, and asked the Grade 11 students to stand up with their arms by their sides. Anyone whose shorts did not reach their fingertips was deemed to be in violation."
    http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/05...ng-dress-code/

    You can change a school dress code, but it won't change the world girls face | Cory Kahaney theguardian.com
    excerpt:
    "I want a better world for girls, but I also see the point of a dress code in school. While there is no question that more must be done to stop men from objectifying women, requiring girls to dress in ways that are situationally appropriate (in this case, for class) need not be mutually exclusive to that cause. It is a slippery slope when we trot out such a serious plague on our society to protest a reasonable school edict."
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...s-code-defense

    Dress codes and the blame game - Columnists - The Telegram
    excerpt:
    "In February 2011, a Manitoba judge decided a convicted rapist would not go to jail because the latest complainant had sent signals that “sex was in the air.” Justice Robert Dewar noted that the 26-year-old woman and her girlfriend were wearing tube tops with no bras, high heels and plenty of makeup at the time."
    http://www.thetelegram.com/Opinion/C...e-blame-game/1

    Hijab is part of a dress code - Community - The News
    http://www.ngnews.ca/Community/2014-...a-dress-code/1

    So now here's an issue with the 'undress-code' - "strip searching" kids in schools.

    CBC Radio was discussing this, this morning. Seems that this action went way beyond what the Supreme Court said was ok back in the 1990s.

    Also interesting how sexist one expert was saying something to the effect that it's a problem because it was a young girl in her teens... and how she has an issue particularly with women and strip searches in prisons, because so many women have been sexually assaulted... My first thought was, hmmm, and young men don't have issues with being made to strip and in terms of prison populations (or anywhere for that matter) young men haven't been subjected to sexual assaults?



    Strip-searched student's family considers suing school
    Mother says Quebec family traumatized after teen forced to undergo strip search at Neufchâtel High School
    CBC News, Feb 19, 2015

    "A Quebec City-area mother says she is considering suing a local school board after her 15-year-old daughter was strip searched at school.

    The girl was strip searched by her female high school principal and another female staff member at Neufchâtel High School after the teenager was suspected of selling drugs.

    The girl was asked to remove all her clothing, including her underwear. No drugs were found. ..."

    "...her daughter’s requests to call home were twice denied."

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montre...hool-1.2963032

    Ignore morality - defend the policy at all costs:


    Shocking strip-search policy in Quebec schools

    by Mark Sutcliffe, Feb 19, 2015

    "Let me see if I have this right: Crossing guards are not supposed to hug children, male hockey coaches cannot tap the helmets of female players, but principals in Quebec are allowed to strip search students, provided they do it “in a respectful fashion.”

    What’s shocking about the strip search at a high school in Quebec City is not that it happened.... What’s utterly baffling is that..."


    http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/col...quebec-schools
    Last edited by KC; 19-02-2015 at 10:20 AM.

  83. #83
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    KC, you're talking to yourself again. lol

  84. #84

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    No body should ever be stripped searched at school by a principal or a teacher. If school authorities think someone is doing something untoward they should call the cops and then let them handle it. If the cops feel the person should be apprehended they should take them to the station and use the right procedures. In the case of the school in Quebec somebody should be fired.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montre...hool-1.2963032
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  85. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    KC, you're talking to yourself again. lol
    My most contentious debates are between me, myself and I.

    Time for a Glaser quote: "...in a very real way, solving any problem is more important than being right"


    Ten Things i have Learned
    Part of an AIGA Talk in London

    8. DOUBT IS BETTER THAN CERTAINTY.
    Everyone always talks about confidence in believing what you do. I remember once going to a class in yoga where the teacher said that, spirituality speaking, if you believed that you had achieved enlightenment you have merely arrived at your limitation. I think that is also true in a practical sense. Deeply held beliefs of any kind prevent you from being open to experience, which is why I find all firmly held ideological positions questionable. It makes me nervous when someone believes too deeply or too much. I think that being skeptical and questioning all deeply held beliefs is essential. Of course we must know the difference between... And then in a very real way, solving any problem is more important than being right. There is a significant sense of self-righteousness in .... Perhaps it begins at school. ...One of the signs of a damaged ego is absolute certainty.Schools encourage the idea of not compromising and defending your work at all costs. Well, .. Blind pursuit of your own ends which excludes the possibility that others may be right does not allow for the fact that ... But self-righteousness is often the enemy. Self-righteousness and narcissism generally come out of some sort of childhood trauma, which we do not have to go into. …"

    http://www.miltonglaser.com/files/Es...hings-8400.pdf
    Last edited by KC; 19-02-2015 at 12:30 PM.

  86. #86

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    ^How many universal problems do you reckon you have solved?.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  87. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^How many universal problems do you reckon you have solved?.
    That's debatable.


    ...but I have maybe managed to trash some of my own long held or innately wrong beliefs and biases. (And Gemini, you've been a great help.)


    ~
    Last edited by KC; 19-02-2015 at 12:44 PM.

  88. #88

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    The latest in women fighting for equal treatment...

    Why the women of Iceland are freeing their nipples | National Post

    "#FreeTheNipple, a popular social media protest, took the streets of Iceland by storm yesterday as women rallied support behind a 17-year-old student who received flak for going bare. ..."

    http://news.nationalpost.com/life/wh...their-nipples/

  89. #89

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    WARNING - Exposed shoulders!



    Student gets detention over halter dress | Stuff.co.nz
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/68...r-halter-dress

  90. #90

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    ^They have dress codes in NZ, most schools have school uniforms until the last year of school. I don't see the issue with that, if the dress code is wrong they should change it, but not a reason for her not to follow it. I expect Canadian schools have dress codes to (can kids wear only board shorts or bikini's to school?)

  91. #91
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    ^^I thought it was odd that it spent half the day yesterday as the top story on cbc.ca, but apparently it is news on the other side of the world too.

  92. #92

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    ^ like news of women being penalized for driving cars in Saudi Arabia makes it here I suppose.

  93. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    WARNING - Exposed shoulders!



    Student gets detention over halter dress | Stuff.co.nz
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/68...r-halter-dress
    Kudos to this young Women for standing up for her rights in the high school context and having the support of both her mother and father in this.
    Really all we have here is the HS policy, that would appear outdated, and indefensible, being challenged by student body and with this being far from an isolated case where such school policy was challenged, and successfully.

    I'm also interested that this young Women received a one day suspension for writing a letter, in effect a grievance of the initial suspension ruling. That suggests to me a power struggle and an attempt to suppress this. A wildly unsuccessful attempt I might add as this has now made international media and headlines.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

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    Agreed, kudos to this young woman. Bad rules don't get changed unless people stand up to them. What very odd and concerning is that she was suspended for writing a letter to the principal about her concerns.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  95. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Agreed, kudos to this young woman. Bad rules don't get changed unless people stand up to them. What very odd and concerning is that she was suspended for writing a letter to the principal about her concerns.
    Schools aren't democracies. ...and since we as a society embrace age discrimination vs merit or some rational measure to allow who can vote, the students have little input into the rules directed at them.

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Agreed, kudos to this young woman. Bad rules don't get changed unless people stand up to them. What very odd and concerning is that she was suspended for writing a letter to the principal about her concerns.
    Schools aren't democracies. ...and since we as a society embrace age discrimination vs merit or some rational measure to allow who can vote, the students have little input into the rules directed at them.
    Parents and students have a great deal of influence and input; and while internally schools are not democracies, the eduction system is.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

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    I see two issues here: "inappropriate" and "sexual distraction". I happen to think that the school can have a role in deciding "inappropriate" although it's a minefield. Not all inappropriate clothing is necessarily sexual.

    But I find the "sexual distraction" phrase hilarious and think that schools should leave that out. It's high school. The sexual distraction would happen just because she's a pretty girl. Heck, even the fact that someone is female is a "sexual distraction" to high school boys. That was one of the arguments made by those people who resisted co-ed high schools even in an era when people wore uniforms to school.

    Eve

  98. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by EveB View Post
    I see two issues here: "inappropriate" and "sexual distraction". I happen to think that the school can have a role in deciding "inappropriate" although it's a minefield. Not all inappropriate clothing is necessarily sexual.

    But I find the "sexual distraction" phrase hilarious and think that schools should leave that out. It's high school. The sexual distraction would happen just because she's a pretty girl. Heck, even the fact that someone is female is a "sexual distraction" to high school boys. That was one of the arguments made by those people who resisted co-ed high schools even in an era when people wore uniforms to school.

    Eve
    Put everyone in their gym or swim wear and after a week no one would notice a thing. What's so puzzling for me is that most kids have seen boys and girls and adults in a near naked state when they go swimming or to the beach or pool on vacations. So it's not like they haven't seen a lot of skin before. And these codes mostly target the females!

    Consider the situation where they are all at the pool for a gym class and then 1/2 hour later they are in class and suddenly a girl's shoulders are shockingly sexual and distracting.

    If there is a legitimate case for this then there's a case for sanctioning someone (teachers included) that is overweight and wears clothing that evokes in others a sense of so called "revulsion". Try telling fat teachers that they can't wear specified clothing because it makes the curves of their hips, belly, rear, breasts etc too revealing and its repulsive and distracting to students.
    Last edited by KC; 15-05-2015 at 09:22 AM.

  99. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by EveB View Post
    I see two issues here: "inappropriate" and "sexual distraction". I happen to think that the school can have a role in deciding "inappropriate" although it's a minefield. Not all inappropriate clothing is necessarily sexual.

    But I find the "sexual distraction" phrase hilarious and think that schools should leave that out. It's high school. The sexual distraction would happen just because she's a pretty girl. Heck, even the fact that someone is female is a "sexual distraction" to high school boys. That was one of the arguments made by those people who resisted co-ed high schools even in an era when people wore uniforms to school.

    Eve
    Put everyone in their gym or swim wear and after a week no one would notice a thing.
    Not sure what planet you are from, but I wouldn't stop noticing the other sex (or I expect for someone who is gay, the same sex). I'm curious, in NZ school uniforms are mandated for most schools (I liked it as a kid as I wasn't having to compete with other kids on clothes, made it much more affordable for my parents too). This really isn't that different, its just a dress code. If the dress code is outdated, the school should change it. Not a reason to disobey it though - change it the right way.

  100. #100

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    I agree with KC.

    In fact I'll site nudist colonies. People who choose to be nudist for any lengths of time, and cohabitat or spend time with other nudists actually start to desensitize to skin being on display. They actually make eye contact. They actually don't stare and leer and actually have sanctions against the same for each other or for visitors.

    Just recently there has been an initiative on Wreck beach where visitors are "red carded" for stopping and obviously staring or leering which is NOT acceptable within the confines of any nudist area. Its unacceptable behavior and universally so in such confines. It becomes a status quo in all such Nudist areas. The flesh stops being seen as sexual and starts to be seen as a person without clothing. The very being, existence, safety, and communal tone in such an area or colony demands that this transference take place.

    Its amazing how quick the transformation is. In reality its clothing and concealing that contributes to a notion of (please forgive in advance) of concealed forbidden fruit being considered both arousing and taboo. Take off all the garb and we're just looking at people and looking at them AS people and not as sexual objects.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

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