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Thread: Canadian "justice"

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    Default Canadian "justice"

    A man wanted for stabbing a father of four to death Monday has a rap sheet that includes a previous slaying.

    Homicide cops on Friday released mugshots of two men wanted for the stabbing death of Gregory Richard Pratt, 31, at a northside apartment early Monday.

    One of the wanted men is Brian Joseph Boysis, 31, a convicted killer freed last year.
    http://www.edmontonsun.com/2013/08/0...long-rap-sheet

    This guy has killed before and we gave him the opportunity to kill again and he took it. How many times do things like this have to happen before we learn our lesson? Why is our country so backwards? Why do we continually release dangerous people back into the community? Doesn't our system care about us?

    This was a senseless killing that could have been prevented if only our legal system was out there to protect the public instead of worrying about some POS rights. Our country is so progressive in every way EXCEPT the legal system. It's pathetic that we keep thinking that rehabilitation works when stuff like this happens on a weekly basis. Almost every person who is wanted has previous convictions for similar offences. Are they really learning their lesson if they keep re-offending?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mla View Post
    A man wanted for stabbing a father of four to death Monday has a rap sheet that includes a previous slaying.

    Homicide cops on Friday released mugshots of two men wanted for the stabbing death of Gregory Richard Pratt, 31, at a northside apartment early Monday.

    One of the wanted men is Brian Joseph Boysis, 31, a convicted killer freed last year.
    http://www.edmontonsun.com/2013/08/0...long-rap-sheet

    This guy has killed before and we gave him the opportunity to kill again and he took it. How many times do things like this have to happen before we learn our lesson? Why is our country so backwards? Why do we continually release dangerous people back into the community? Doesn't our system care about us?

    This was a senseless killing that could have been prevented if only our legal system was out there to protect the public instead of worrying about some POS rights. Our country is so progressive in every way EXCEPT the legal system. It's pathetic that we keep thinking that rehabilitation works when stuff like this happens on a weekly basis. Almost every person who is wanted has previous convictions for similar offences. Are they really learning their lesson if they keep re-offending?
    Kinda like giving a guy bail for the second time after he disappeared after the first. It's a joke.

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    Justice is too lax and weak because gov't won't spend building prisons.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mla View Post
    Doesn't our system care about us?
    No, the "system" doesnt. As long as the "system" can continue to collect money off you and you follow their rules, the system couldnt give two ***** about yah
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    They probably took into account the fact he stubbed his toe when he was 7 and therefore should be given lenient treatment for some perceived wrongdoing by society - he wasn't totally responsible for his actions! The fact that he's repeating it now confirms how badly society has reared this angel and he should be treated as the victim.

    /sarcasm
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    Very few things anger me more than repeat offenders of violent crime.

    Those middle-of-the-night home invasions/robberies/attacks in McCauley a couple weeks ago (that ended with the victim defending himself with the machete) were by people who were "well known" to police.

    I bet our justice system frustrates police to no end as well. I mean, how many times can you arrest the same guys over and over again without losing faith in the court and prison system.

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    if Canada were to have Texas style justice, we could have many prisons across Canada pretty easy.
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    Hmmm, seven posts in and nobody coming to the defence of these **********. Things is looking up around here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mla View Post
    A man wanted for stabbing a father of four to death Monday has a rap sheet that includes a previous slaying.

    Homicide cops on Friday released mugshots of two men wanted for the stabbing death of Gregory Richard Pratt, 31, at a northside apartment early Monday.

    One of the wanted men is Brian Joseph Boysis, 31, a convicted killer freed last year.
    http://www.edmontonsun.com/2013/08/0...long-rap-sheet

    This guy has killed before and we gave him the opportunity to kill again and he took it. How many times do things like this have to happen before we learn our lesson? Why is our country so backwards? Why do we continually release dangerous people back into the community? Doesn't our system care about us?

    This was a senseless killing that could have been prevented if only our legal system was out there to protect the public instead of worrying about some POS rights. Our country is so progressive in every way EXCEPT the legal system. It's pathetic that we keep thinking that rehabilitation works when stuff like this happens on a weekly basis. Almost every person who is wanted has previous convictions for similar offences. Are they really learning their lesson if they keep re-offending?
    Your viewpoint is absolutely disturbing. The progressive answer is a justice system that focuses on rehabilitation. Which is exactly what ours does.

    If one or two people do not get properly rehabilitated, it does not mean the whole system is broken, but rather that those people have to be addressed. Canada has it right. Look at overall crime statistics compared to the US.

    It is not the job of the state to act as a proxy for the angry mob/vigilante justice promoters.

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    I should have expected nothing less on here, but of course people repeat the logical fallacy of:
    "Many people who commit a crime have committed previous crimes, that means that you cannot rehabilitate criminals"

    Of course, that is incorrect under logical examination - the existence of one outcome with no information about the frequency of that outcome cannot prove a hypothesis.

    To determine if rehabilitation is possible, one must look at the entire population of people who have been 'rehabilitated' and then determine the reoffense rate. I suspect this would be quite a bit lower than most of the mob thinks it is.

  11. #11

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    Rehabilitate??? Does not work! Everybody innately knows from childhood what is right and what is wrong. If someone choses to go the wrong way, then they deserve all the punishment mankind can dish out.
    mandel is a cry baby

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    Quote Originally Posted by AAAAE View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mla View Post
    A man wanted for stabbing a father of four to death Monday has a rap sheet that includes a previous slaying.

    Homicide cops on Friday released mugshots of two men wanted for the stabbing death of Gregory Richard Pratt, 31, at a northside apartment early Monday.

    One of the wanted men is Brian Joseph Boysis, 31, a convicted killer freed last year.
    http://www.edmontonsun.com/2013/08/0...long-rap-sheet

    This guy has killed before and we gave him the opportunity to kill again and he took it. How many times do things like this have to happen before we learn our lesson? Why is our country so backwards? Why do we continually release dangerous people back into the community? Doesn't our system care about us?

    This was a senseless killing that could have been prevented if only our legal system was out there to protect the public instead of worrying about some POS rights. Our country is so progressive in every way EXCEPT the legal system. It's pathetic that we keep thinking that rehabilitation works when stuff like this happens on a weekly basis. Almost every person who is wanted has previous convictions for similar offences. Are they really learning their lesson if they keep re-offending?
    Your viewpoint is absolutely disturbing. The progressive answer is a justice system that focuses on rehabilitation. Which is exactly what ours does.

    If one or two people do not get properly rehabilitated, it does not mean the whole system is broken, but rather that those people have to be addressed. Canada has it right. Look at overall crime statistics compared to the US.

    It is not the job of the state to act as a proxy for the angry mob/vigilante justice promoters.
    No it is the job of the state to protect its citizens. A system that focuses on rehabilitation obviously does not work. Look at the innocent man who was killed because we put our faith in rehabilitation. When we risk the entire community to take a chance on some criminal that MIGHT decide to change his ways we know our society is going in the wrong direction. An innocent man was killed because we thought the criminal who did this MIGHT change. We were wrong and an innocent person is dead because of it.

    Just because you think it is okay to give criminals 20 chances to change their ways doesn't mean it is the logical thing to do.

    I'm not upset because "one or two" criminals happen to be re-offending. I am unhappy because I read garbage like this in the newspaper on a weekly basis and I am tired of the government risking my safety while just hoping that some POS criminal decides to play nice with others. I am tired of the 20 or 30 chances we keep giving them. If they can't behave then they shouldn't be allowed to live in regular society.
    Last edited by Mla; 04-08-2013 at 03:28 AM.

  13. #13

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    Rehabilitation works just fine, but some people just can't be. We need to keep those ones locked away. Sadly, the ones that can't be are often mentally ill or otherwise and the politics around that gets messy.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mla View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AAAAE View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mla View Post
    A man wanted for stabbing a father of four to death Monday has a rap sheet that includes a previous slaying.

    Homicide cops on Friday released mugshots of two men wanted for the stabbing death of Gregory Richard Pratt, 31, at a northside apartment early Monday.

    One of the wanted men is Brian Joseph Boysis, 31, a convicted killer freed last year.
    http://www.edmontonsun.com/2013/08/0...long-rap-sheet

    This guy has killed before and we gave him the opportunity to kill again and he took it. How many times do things like this have to happen before we learn our lesson? Why is our country so backwards? Why do we continually release dangerous people back into the community? Doesn't our system care about us?

    This was a senseless killing that could have been prevented if only our legal system was out there to protect the public instead of worrying about some POS rights. Our country is so progressive in every way EXCEPT the legal system. It's pathetic that we keep thinking that rehabilitation works when stuff like this happens on a weekly basis. Almost every person who is wanted has previous convictions for similar offences. Are they really learning their lesson if they keep re-offending?
    Your viewpoint is absolutely disturbing. The progressive answer is a justice system that focuses on rehabilitation. Which is exactly what ours does.

    If one or two people do not get properly rehabilitated, it does not mean the whole system is broken, but rather that those people have to be addressed. Canada has it right. Look at overall crime statistics compared to the US.

    It is not the job of the state to act as a proxy for the angry mob/vigilante justice promoters.
    No it is the job of the state to protect its citizens. A system that focuses on rehabilitation obviously does not work. Look at the innocent man who was killed because we put our faith in rehabilitation. When we risk the entire community to take a chance on some criminal that MIGHT decide to change his ways we know our society is going in the wrong direction. An innocent man was killed because we thought the criminal who did this MIGHT change. We were wrong and an innocent person is dead because of it.

    Just because you think it is okay to give criminals 20 chances to change their ways doesn't mean it is the logical thing to do.

    I'm not upset because "one or two" criminals happen to be re-offending. I am unhappy because I read garbage like this in the newspaper on a weekly basis and I am tired of the government risking my safety while just hoping that some POS criminal decides to play nice with others. I am tired of the 20 or 30 chances we keep giving them. If they can't behave then they shouldn't be allowed to live in regular society.
    There are millions of individual humans all around you. The media loves to make you feel unsafe and angry but the truth is that you are in no danger. The relative frequency of criminal events has been magnified by virtue of the size of our cities. The streets are not filled with roaming criminals. The government is effectively doing its job at creating a safer society through integration of marginal people to prevent them from becoming the criminals you fear. Everything is okay. Really.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by AAAAE View Post
    There are millions of individual humans all around you. The media loves to make you feel unsafe and angry but the truth is that you are in no danger. The relative frequency of criminal events has been magnified by virtue of the size of our cities. The streets are not filled with roaming criminals. The government is effectively doing its job at creating a safer society through integration of marginal people to prevent them from becoming the criminals you fear. Everything is okay. Really.
    Oh, I see. The fact that three men, just two weeks ago, broke into several homes (seemingly randomly) in the early morning, and robbed, beaten, and murdered residents only a few blocks from where I live is nothing to worry about. One resident only got away because he had a machete in his bedroom and hacked one of the suspects in self-defense. The most disgusting part is that these guys were "well known" to police. As far as I am concerned, these dangerous destructive wastes of skin should be locked away until they die.

    But since you think it's all in the "media" and the government is "effectively" doing its job, everything is OK if they only get put away for a short time and get re-released.

    Awesome!

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by AAAAE View Post
    There are millions of individual humans all around you. The media loves to make you feel unsafe and angry but the truth is that you are in no danger. The relative frequency of criminal events has been magnified by virtue of the size of our cities. The streets are not filled with roaming criminals. The government is effectively doing its job at creating a safer society through integration of marginal people to prevent them from becoming the criminals you fear. Everything is okay. Really.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Komrade View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AAAAE View Post
    There are millions of individual humans all around you. The media loves to make you feel unsafe and angry but the truth is that you are in no danger. The relative frequency of criminal events has been magnified by virtue of the size of our cities. The streets are not filled with roaming criminals. The government is effectively doing its job at creating a safer society through integration of marginal people to prevent them from becoming the criminals you fear. Everything is okay. Really.
    Post of the year. WOW! Thank you. Spot on 100%
    You must have an education in law enforcement and justice to make a statement like that.

  18. #18

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    Canada's crime rate lowest since 1972
    Crime rate and crime severity index both down by 3% in 2012, StatsCan says
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/...t-decades.html

    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Canada's crime rate lowest since 1972
    Crime rate and crime severity index both down by 3% in 2012, StatsCan says
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/...t-decades.html

    Oh well I guess that completely excuses the fact that our system failed the innocent person killed in this incident. Would it hurt to place more restrictions on violent people likely to re-offend? I think it would only help. But since crime is down we shouldn't have to try anymore right. The system is "good enough."

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    ^That just proves criminals & statisticians are doing a better job. Crime is not going down ,and by the looks of things won't be any time soon.
    mandel is a cry baby

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    Looking at that graph, it appears that violent crimes have tripled or quadrupled since 1962 and while property crimes have decreased from their peak at around 1992 they are still higher than they were in 1962. So while the justice system may treat criminals differently than they did in 1962 the results for the law abiding citizen are no better.

    Nice of you to label everyone who disagrees with your view point AAAAE.

  22. #22

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    Crime is going down, but:

    1. The crime rate is still too high (and why did it increase after 1962?)
    and
    2. It's not going down fast enough

    Why can't some people accept the fact that some of us still think crime is too high?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Crime is going down, but:

    1. The crime rate is still too high (and why did it increase after 1962?)
    and
    2. It's not going down fast enough

    Why can't some people accept the fact that some of us still think crime is too high?
    +1 That is what I am trying to get at. Maybe it is the "good enough" mentality. I think maybe is also has to do with lack of accountability. Something about these younger generations not liking accountability. This is coming from a 24 year old.

    I could make a new thread for every article I read that is about the same thing but I won't because that will be 60% of the new threads on this site. Some convicted criminal who was released too early because of relaxed Canadian laws hurts some other person. It should never happen. And it happens more than we see. Not every crime makes it to the media. I have a feeling it happens alot more than we realize.

  24. #24

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    http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/stor...xas-crime.html

    Conservatives in the United States' toughest crime-fighting jurisdiction — Texas — say the Harper government's crime strategy won't work.

    "You will spend billions and billions and billions on locking people up," says Judge John Creuzot of the Dallas County Court. "And there will come a point in time where the public says, 'Enough!' And you'll wind up letting them out."

    Adds Representative Jerry Madden, a conservative Republican who heads the Texas House Committee on Corrections, "It's a very expensive thing to build new prisons and, if you build 'em, I guarantee you they will come. They'll be filled, OK? Because people will send them there.

    "But, if you don't build 'em, they will come up with very creative things to do that keep the community safe and yet still do the incarceration necessary."

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    As per similar threads and previous posts I've made: In many cases (not all) the military prison formula works quite well. Of course to apply this en masse would be very expensive the manpower to prisoner ratio in the military system is a lot higher. Their main goal is actual rehabilitation not warehousing. Truly breaking a person, laying a new foundation to be better citizens and soldiers.

    A snapshot article:
    http://pbdba.lfpress.com/cgi-bin/pub...2876&s=societe
    Last edited by Frank Wilson; 05-08-2013 at 12:40 AM.

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    ^unfortunately that will never happen in bleeding heart liberal Canada where we treat prisoners better than our seniors. I don't think we should lock everyone up. I just think we should have tougher restrictions on the people we let out on bail. And when someone is sentenced to 9 years in prison I want it to actually mean 9 years. Not 9 minus 3 for pre trial, minus 2 because you're a Native, minus another 1 because of good behaviour. And even before that we'll let you out on unsupervised day passes because we'll trust you will behave when out in the community and trust you'll come back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/stor...xas-crime.html

    Conservatives in the United States' toughest crime-fighting jurisdiction — Texas — say the Harper government's crime strategy won't work.

    "You will spend billions and billions and billions on locking people up," says Judge John Creuzot of the Dallas County Court. "And there will come a point in time where the public says, 'Enough!' And you'll wind up letting them out."

    Adds Representative Jerry Madden, a conservative Republican who heads the Texas House Committee on Corrections, "It's a very expensive thing to build new prisons and, if you build 'em, I guarantee you they will come. They'll be filled, OK? Because people will send them there.

    "But, if you don't build 'em, they will come up with very creative things to do that keep the community safe and yet still do the incarceration necessary."
    guys from Texas should shut their mouth because they knew there is 2 million inmates in prisons across America due to long prison sentences such life without parole and sentenced usually more than 20 yrs and up.
    Last edited by jagators63; 05-08-2013 at 12:40 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mla View Post
    ^unfortunately that will never happen in bleeding heart liberal Canada where we treat prisoners better than our seniors. I don't think we should lock everyone up. I just think we should have tougher restrictions on the people we let out on bail. And when someone is sentenced to 9 years in prison I want it to actually mean 9 years. Not 9 minus 3 for pre trial, minus 2 because you're a Native, minus another 1 because of good behaviour. And even before that we'll let you out on unsupervised day passes because we'll trust you will behave when out in the community and trust you'll come back.
    You're right, never in a million years. The military system comparatively is very efficient, swift trials/judgements, and the sentences are shorter as well. In the military system: no gangs, no rank, no gender, and no race. The repeat offender rate is very low.

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    ^ Well thats a rather simplistic comparison. The military is a very homogenous group of people, who are all socialized to respect and understand a chain of command and punitive action. It would only make sense the military systems is more effective in enforcing justice on its own population. The general population of the country (and especially that of most criminals) doesn't reflect that same social construct of the military.

    Honestly comments like "bleeding heart liberals" are the problem with our criminal justice system in my eyes. Justice policy and laws have become too much of a political and media spectacle, where "conservatives" MUST follow path A and "liberals" path B. The answer lies in educated and thoughtful planning by criminology experts to address certain issues. But that doesn't buy votes or media ad revenue.

    Also keep in mind only the worst cases end up in the spotlight. In general the Canadian justice system is pretty effective. One of my best friends is a parole officer, and he has repeatedly told me that about 8/10 offenders he handles at a time follow all the rules after they are released and don't re-offend. Obviously that leaves some room for improvement, and I am the first to completely agree that our system is not well designed to sort out and handle the people who are known to be violent pattern repeat offenders or who commit crimes like child sex crimes and are nearly impossible to rehabilitate. But at the end of the day, crime in Canada isn't as bad as it is sometimes made out to be. Our justice system is generally effective and we do have one of the lowest crime rates in the post-industrial world.

    We also need to ask ourselves as a society whether the focus of our justice system has to be in preventing crime or in enacting restitution. (And I'm not saying it's perfect at either right now.) It does sicken me when someone here can murder another human being and be back out on the streets in under 10 years. But any modern criminologist will agree that study after study has shown longer prison sentences have almost no positive effect on reducing crime rates. So does a sense of "revenge" solely warrant spending billions annually on keeping people behind bars longer? Maybe it does, I'm not sure I have an opinion on that. But it's important we admit the reasons behind a motivation for longer sentences, and not to cloud it with false beliefs that it will miraculously solve crime.
    Last edited by halocore; 05-08-2013 at 06:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halocore View Post
    ^ Well thats a rather simplistic comparison. The military is a very homogenous group of people, who are all socialized to respect and understand a chain of command and punitive action. It would only make sense the military systems is more effective in enforcing justice on its own population. The general population of the country (and especially that of most criminals) doesn't reflect that same social construct of the military.

    Honestly comments like "bleeding heart liberals" are the problem with our criminal justice system in my eyes. Justice policy and laws have become too much of a political and media spectacle, where "conservatives" MUST follow path A and "liberals" path B. The answer lies in educated and thoughtful planning by criminology experts to address certain issues. But that doesn't buy votes or media ad revenue.

    Also keep in mind only the worst cases end up in the spotlight. In general the Canadian justice system is pretty effective. One of my best friends is a parole officer, and he has repeatedly told me that about 8/10 offenders he handles at a time follow all the rules after they are released and don't re-offend. Obviously that leaves some room for improvement, and I am the first to completely agree that our system is not well designed to sort out and handle the people who are known to be violent pattern repeat offenders or who commit crimes like child sex crimes and are nearly impossible to rehabilitate. But at the end of the day, crime in Canada isn't as bad as it is sometimes made out to be. Our justice system is generally effective and we do have one of the lowest crime rates in the post-industrial world.

    We also need to ask ourselves as a society whether the focus of our justice system has to be in preventing crime or in enacting restitution. (And I'm not saying it's perfect at either right now.) It does sicken me when someone here can murder another human being and be back out on the streets in under 10 years. But any modern criminologist will agree that study after study has shown longer prison sentences have almost no positive effect on reducing crime rates. So does a sense of "revenge" solely warrant spending billions annually on keeping people behind bars longer? Maybe it does, I'm not sure I have an opinion on that. But it's important we admit the reasons behind a motivation for longer sentences, and not to cloud it with false beliefs that it will miraculously solve crime.
    Those types of people are the worst criminals! We should not be releasing them. Those are the ones I am upset with. Let's fix that problem. I'm not worried about the ones who don't re-offend, I'm worried about the violent ones that refuse to change. Our system doesn't adequately handle them and we need to change that. That is what this whole thread is about.

    And it isn't about revenge it is about accountability. We need to hold people accountable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jagators63 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/stor...xas-crime.html

    Conservatives in the United States' toughest crime-fighting jurisdiction — Texas — say the Harper government's crime strategy won't work.

    "You will spend billions and billions and billions on locking people up," says Judge John Creuzot of the Dallas County Court. "And there will come a point in time where the public says, 'Enough!' And you'll wind up letting them out."

    Adds Representative Jerry Madden, a conservative Republican who heads the Texas House Committee on Corrections, "It's a very expensive thing to build new prisons and, if you build 'em, I guarantee you they will come. They'll be filled, OK? Because people will send them there.

    "But, if you don't build 'em, they will come up with very creative things to do that keep the community safe and yet still do the incarceration necessary."
    guys from Texas should shut their mouth because they knew there is 2 million inmates in prisons across America due to long prison sentences such life without parole and sentenced usually more than 20 yrs and up.
    And those criminals are in jail for a reason. It is not the fault of the state they decided to commit crimes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mla View Post
    Those types of people are the worst criminals! We should not be releasing them. Those are the ones I am upset with. Let's fix that problem. I'm not worried about the ones who don't re-offend, I'm worried about the violent ones that refuse to change. Our system doesn't adequately handle them and we need to change that. That is what this whole thread is about.

    And it isn't about revenge it is about accountability. We need to hold people accountable.
    I wasn't disagreeing with the topic of the thread, I was just saying that the larger national conversation on criminal justice has become very politicized and partisan. Decisions are made off of party doctrine rather than on trying to solve actual issue like this. And that, while it's an emotional topic for most people, we can't be too quick to condone the whole Canadian justice system (you yourself asked why the country was so backwards and why the system doesn't care about us). By in large the system is effective, crime rates are dropping, and this is one of the safest countries in the world.

    The problem of re-offence is a complex one that deserves some real experts (that in my mind should be detached from government and political parties) NOT politicians. It's easy to say "lock em up forever" in a retrospective context after they've committed more crimes, but how do we proactively go about defining who stays in and who gets released in a fair, just, and accurate way? What makes one murderer "better" than another? Who makes the final decision? I'm just offering some devil's advocacy here. The whole topic of criminal justice seems dominated by ten second sound bites and very simplistic answers (the first several response to this thread are an example of that). While it's really a very complex sociological issue.

    And split hairs and call it accountability if you wish. The point I was making was that there is a component to criminal justice which fulfills the natural human need for restitution. I'm not saying that's a bad thing. Maybe the minimum jail time for murder should be changed to 30, 40 years (etc). We just have to be honest that such a change would be motivated by our feelings to "right a wrong" and not some misguided belief that it's going to prevent murders from happening.
    Last edited by halocore; 06-08-2013 at 02:51 AM.

  33. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mla View Post
    And those criminals are in jail for a reason. It is not the fault of the state they decided to commit crimes.
    But you must agree that the high rates of incarceration are also due to the Three Strikes Laws in many states. People with even minor drug possession offences end up behind bars for decades.

    In the United States, often the penalty does not fit the crime.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-strikes_law

    Cases
    - Gregory Taylor was serving a 25 years to life sentence for trying to break into a soup kitchen in 1997 when he was ordered to be released by Judge Peter Espinoza of California Superior Court in 2010.

    - Santos Reyes in California committed a burglary as a juvenile with no jury trial (strike one); the second strike was a robbery which didn't involve injury to anybody; after ten years had passed without incident, Reyes was convicted of perjury for submitting a false application while under oath and, as a result of the three-strikes law, he was sentenced to 26 years to life.

    - In 1996, Issac Ramirez stole a VCR, worth $199, from a Sears in Los Angeles, CA. Walking out of the store in daylight, he was promptly caught and arrested. Having previously been convicted of two previous shoplifting related robberies, this offense was Ramirez's third strike, and he was sentenced to a prison term of 25 years to life. While in prison, Ramirez studied California state law, as well as Federal law, and filed multiple appeals to his sentence. Finally, in 2002, a Federal Court ruled in favor of his appeal, that his sentence was in violation of the Eighth Amendment forbidding cruel and unusual punishment and ordered Ramirez be set free.
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  34. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by halocore View Post
    I was just saying that the larger national conversation on criminal justice has become very politicized and partisan.
    I agree with this.

    Personally, I believe that people who have committed serious crimes should be locked in prison for a very long time, mostly because I think they deserve to be punished, AND they are proven dangers to the public and need to be kept away from the public. Now whenever I say this, people jump down my throat and say things like, "But that doesn't reduce nor deter crime!" or "That Harper and USA prison model doesn't work", etc.

    The thing is, even though I support stiff punishment for criminals and more police, I ALSO support social policies and initiatives that are proven to prevent crime.

    I think we can have it both ways. We don't need to choose one or the other. I don't really care how much it costs, either - the issue of public and personal safety and security is very important to me.

  35. #35

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    If paying to warehouse people solved crime it would have done it a long long long time ago. The whole system is broken and needs to be totally rethought.

    9 times out of 10 Prison is not the answer and "Punishment" can be delieved in many forms not just old fashioned useless warehousing.
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  36. #36

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    ^While it doesn't solve crime, the threat of prison definitely keeps a significant portion of the population from doing more bad things than they do now.

    I like to consider myself a good person, but if there were no consequences I'd take a lot more matters into my own hands.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    9 times out of 10 Prison is not the answer
    Source?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    9 times out of 10 Prison is not the answer
    Source?
    As far as the death penalty goes, here you go: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/stud...tive-deterrent

    As far as severity of punishment goes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deterrence_%28legal%29

    Research has shown that increasing the severity of a punishment does not have much effect on crime, while increasing the certainty of punishment does have a deterrent effect.[2] "Clearly, enhancing the severity of punishment will have little impact on people who do not believe they will be apprehended for their actions."
    So you're both kind of right and wrong. Severity of punishment is not a deterrent. Whether someone is going to go to jail for 5 years or 20 years for a crime, it really doesn't serve as a deterrent. However if they're certain they'll be caught, then they won't commit the crime in the first place.

    Which makes total sense. No one rationally compares the reward of committing a crime with the possible sentence they may receive if caught. They will however decide whether or not to commit the crime based upon the likelihood of getting away with it or not.

  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    9 times out of 10 Prison is not the answer
    Source?
    As far as the death penalty goes, here you go: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/stud...tive-deterrent

    As far as severity of punishment goes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deterrence_%28legal%29

    Research has shown that increasing the severity of a punishment does not have much effect on crime, while increasing the certainty of punishment does have a deterrent effect.[2] "Clearly, enhancing the severity of punishment will have little impact on people who do not believe they will be apprehended for their actions."
    So you're both kind of right and wrong. Severity of punishment is not a deterrent. Whether someone is going to go to jail for 5 years or 20 years for a crime, it really doesn't serve as a deterrent. However if they're certain they'll be caught, then they won't commit the crime in the first place.

    Which makes total sense. No one rationally compares the reward of committing a crime with the possible sentence they may receive if caught. They will however decide whether or not to commit the crime based upon the likelihood of getting away with it or not.
    And remember I didn't say that Prison doesn't have a place Oilers... I just said most times it isn't the right answer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by halocore View Post
    I was just saying that the larger national conversation on criminal justice has become very politicized and partisan.
    I agree with this.

    Personally, I believe that people who have committed serious crimes should be locked in prison for a very long time, mostly because I think they deserve to be punished, AND they are proven dangers to the public and need to be kept away from the public. Now whenever I say this, people jump down my throat and say things like, "But that doesn't reduce nor deter crime!" or "That Harper and USA prison model doesn't work", etc.

    The thing is, even though I support stiff punishment for criminals and more police, I ALSO support social policies and initiatives that are proven to prevent crime.

    I think we can have it both ways. We don't need to choose one or the other. I don't really care how much it costs, either - the issue of public and personal safety and security is very important to me.


    I thought I was the only one who felt this way. The issue is the States are at one end of the spectrum when it comes to their justice system and we are at the other end. Where they lock up everybody and we let murderers walk free. I think we should be closer to the middle. Adopt the best principles from the States but use them with a mix of what works well here. Get rid of what doesn't work and make our own model. I know we already have our own but I think by mixing good ideas we could make our model even better.

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  42. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mla View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by halocore View Post
    I was just saying that the larger national conversation on criminal justice has become very politicized and partisan.
    I agree with this.

    Personally, I believe that people who have committed serious crimes should be locked in prison for a very long time, mostly because I think they deserve to be punished, AND they are proven dangers to the public and need to be kept away from the public. Now whenever I say this, people jump down my throat and say things like, "But that doesn't reduce nor deter crime!" or "That Harper and USA prison model doesn't work", etc.

    The thing is, even though I support stiff punishment for criminals and more police, I ALSO support social policies and initiatives that are proven to prevent crime.

    I think we can have it both ways. We don't need to choose one or the other. I don't really care how much it costs, either - the issue of public and personal safety and security is very important to me.


    I thought I was the only one who felt this way. The issue is the States are at one end of the spectrum when it comes to their justice system and we are at the other end. Where they lock up everybody and we let murderers walk free. I think we should be closer to the middle. Adopt the best principles from the States but use them with a mix of what works well here. Get rid of what doesn't work and make our own model. I know we already have our own but I think by mixing good ideas we could make our model even better.
    ^ We were making our own model... Prior to Harper we had a system that people refereed to as a Global leader.. a model.

    Canada is one of the safest countries in the world....

    We need to start from the stance that our perception is skewed.

    Punishment must fit the crime. We are innocent until proven guilty. We have the right to due process. Statements like "Murderers walk free" is hogwash. A crime is committed and a sentence is imposed and carried out. We can't put/keep people in prison for crime they have not committed yet and we don't know that they will EVER commit. Or I guess we could.. but then we would be China eh!

    You have formed your opinion based on crime reporting from major national media that sells stories such as Mr X , strikes again! What you never hear about is the many people who screw up, shape up and never have another issue. Nor do you hear about the people who can't afford true due process.. the years spent to get to trial...

    I WORRY DEEPLY about some of the stances you guys have that seems to emulate Guilty until proven innocent. I assure you if you ever found yourself in the system (rightly or wrongly) you will be HAPPY that you have the right to due process.
    Last edited by edmonton daily photo; 06-08-2013 at 04:57 PM.
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  43. #43

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    This person, although a concern, needs support not prison. Nor can we become a pitch forked mob demanding that she be put in jail because the reality is that she has not become a serial killer.. she killed some cats. So... either we start putting away all cat killers for life or we DO BETTER by the mentally ill.

    Canadian ‘Serial Killer in the Making’ to be Released on Probation
    http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/b...ion/index.html

    A disturbed young woman who doctors describe as a “sexual sadist” is set to be released on probation after spending eight months in custody for torturing and killing her family’s pets. Kayla Bourque, 23, studied criminology at Simon Fraser University and appears to be fascinated by gore and murder. She was adopted from a Romanian orphanage at eight months of age and brought to Prince George, B.C. Now, the judge presiding over her case says her adoptive mother doesn’t want her living at home.

    Bourque told a friend at her SFU dorm that she had dismembered cats in Prince George, including her family’s cat, and fantasized about killing a homeless person. The student informed school authorities who phoned police. Investigators discovered a video of Bourque disemboweling and hanging her family’s dog while describing what she was doing. They also found what was described in reports as a “kill kit”: a bag containing a 7-inch knife, a razor blade, zip ties, garbage bags, a needle and a mask. She was arrested in March and pleaded guilty in October to killing or injuring an animal, causing unnecessary suffering and pain to an animal and possessing a knife. She has spent six months in custody, and Judge Malcolm Maclean ordered that she remain behind bars for another two months so that authorities have time to plan the conditions of her release.
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  44. #44

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    And just to remember that we are talking about PEOPLE here....

    ... this is what this gal was born into.

    From a nature vs. nurture perspective, it’s difficult to speculate on the root of her pathology based on her biological family history, because she was adopted very young, and no records have been released publicly as of yet (if they even exist). Her first eight months were spent in the notorious orphanages of 90s Romania, where neglect during infancy is believed to have churned out several orphans with sociopathic tendencies.

    At eight months old, she then immigrated to the most dangerous city in Canada, Prince George, BC. Prince George’s recent history is saturated with violence, gangs, and serial killing. Most notably, the four murders of young women perpetrated by the then 21-year old Cody Alan Legebokoff and the series of unsolved murders and disappearances of women along Highway 16 (aka the Highway of Tears) which runs through the town have greatly tarnished the reputation of Prince George.
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  45. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    This person, although a concern, needs support not prison.
    Agree, but I think her "support" should be in the form of keeping the public safe from her. She might not need a "prison", but it should definitely have a locked door.

  46. #46

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    People who are deemed clinically insane and put in psychiatric facilities because of criminal offences are not treated like your average prisoner. These people are usually given more freedom within the facilities and are allotted more medical time. If a person who has sever mental issues cannot be rehabilitated they should stay in care for the rest of their lives. Even the patients that are freed should be watched closely. Who is their to give them their medications, who is going to be with them 24/7 to make sure they are never missing. I sure would not want nut jobs loose on the streets unsupervised. Who knows when their demons are going to surface. Some mental illnesses can be managed but if they are of a sadistic nature I would rather err on the side of caution than set them loose.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

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    Here's a good article from the perspective of the police, who we should be listening to more often because they are the frontline guys.

    http://www.edmontonsun.com/2013/08/0...justice-system

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    This person, although a concern, needs support not prison. Nor can we become a pitch forked mob demanding that she be put in jail because the reality is that she has not become a serial killer.. she killed some cats. So... either we start putting away all cat killers for life or we DO BETTER by the mentally ill.

    Canadian ‘Serial Killer in the Making’ to be Released on Probation
    http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/b...ion/index.html

    A disturbed young woman who doctors describe as a “sexual sadist” is set to be released on probation after spending eight months in custody for torturing and killing her family’s pets. Kayla Bourque, 23, studied criminology at Simon Fraser University and appears to be fascinated by gore and murder. She was adopted from a Romanian orphanage at eight months of age and brought to Prince George, B.C. Now, the judge presiding over her case says her adoptive mother doesn’t want her living at home.

    Bourque told a friend at her SFU dorm that she had dismembered cats in Prince George, including her family’s cat, and fantasized about killing a homeless person. The student informed school authorities who phoned police. Investigators discovered a video of Bourque disemboweling and hanging her family’s dog while describing what she was doing. They also found what was described in reports as a “kill kit”: a bag containing a 7-inch knife, a razor blade, zip ties, garbage bags, a needle and a mask. She was arrested in March and pleaded guilty in October to killing or injuring an animal, causing unnecessary suffering and pain to an animal and possessing a knife. She has spent six months in custody, and Judge Malcolm Maclean ordered that she remain behind bars for another two months so that authorities have time to plan the conditions of her release.
    He's a convicted murderer. He needs prison to keep society safe. The safety of society should always override the want to rehabilitate those who refuse to rehabilitate. It isn't worth the risk.
    Last edited by Mla; 06-08-2013 at 06:46 PM.

  49. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mla View Post
    He needs prison to keep society safe. The safety of society should always override the want to rehabilitate those who refuse to rehabilitate. It isn't worth the risk.
    I fully agree. To me, prison (including secure mental institutions) has nothing to do with "punishment" or "deterrence". People who have demonstrated that they are a danger to others need to be locked away to protect the public, and as I see it, that's the purpose of these institutions.

    I also agree with crime prevention, because I believe that everyone should have the opportunity to make better choices in their lives. But if someone screws up and makes bad choices that harm others, they should be locked away.

    I think Canada fails at both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mla View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    This person, although a concern, needs support not prison. Nor can we become a pitch forked mob demanding that she be put in jail because the reality is that she has not become a serial killer.. she killed some cats. So... either we start putting away all cat killers for life or we DO BETTER by the mentally ill.

    Canadian ‘Serial Killer in the Making’ to be Released on Probation
    http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/b...ion/index.html

    A disturbed young woman who doctors describe as a “sexual sadist” is set to be released on probation after spending eight months in custody for torturing and killing her family’s pets. Kayla Bourque, 23, studied criminology at Simon Fraser University and appears to be fascinated by gore and murder. She was adopted from a Romanian orphanage at eight months of age and brought to Prince George, B.C. Now, the judge presiding over her case says her adoptive mother doesn’t want her living at home.

    Bourque told a friend at her SFU dorm that she had dismembered cats in Prince George, including her family’s cat, and fantasized about killing a homeless person. The student informed school authorities who phoned police. Investigators discovered a video of Bourque disemboweling and hanging her family’s dog while describing what she was doing. They also found what was described in reports as a “kill kit”: a bag containing a 7-inch knife, a razor blade, zip ties, garbage bags, a needle and a mask. She was arrested in March and pleaded guilty in October to killing or injuring an animal, causing unnecessary suffering and pain to an animal and possessing a knife. She has spent six months in custody, and Judge Malcolm Maclean ordered that she remain behind bars for another two months so that authorities have time to plan the conditions of her release.
    He's a convicted murderer. He needs prison to keep society safe. The safety of society should always override the want to rehabilitate those who refuse to rehabilitate. It isn't worth the risk.
    first of all it's a she.. and no she is not a murderer. She abused animals. She has not killed anyone and cannot be locked up for it despite the fact she expresses very concerning symptoms.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    This person, although a concern, needs support not prison.
    Agree, but I think her "support" should be in the form of keeping the public safe from her. She might not need a "prison", but it should definitely have a locked door.
    You have to remember at one time society would have viewed me, a gay male, as one of these people who should be behind a "locked door". When you start locking people away without cause for the "greater good" its a slippery slope.

    You must be VERY careful what you advocate for or promote. There are apparent consequences and unapparent ones. Before you know it you could have your rights removed for ne good reason other than someones perceived concern for the greater good
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

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    It's a sad case, all around. The woman is clearly a sadist and I've little doubt that her next victim will be human.

    I've also little hope that she can be rehabilitated.

    Still, we can't jail someone for something they might do - and we shouldn't want a law that would allow for that. It'd be a law way too wide open to abuse.

    Still - the consequence of doing nothing will be some random person's death sentence waiting to happen - and that's the saddest part of all.

    It's the ultimate price of a free society.
    ... gobsmacked

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    This person, although a concern, needs support not prison.
    Agree, but I think her "support" should be in the form of keeping the public safe from her. She might not need a "prison", but it should definitely have a locked door.
    You have to remember at one time society would have viewed me, a gay male, as one of these people who should be behind a "locked door". When you start locking people away without cause for the "greater good" its a slippery slope.

    You must be VERY careful what you advocate for or promote. There are apparent consequences and unapparent ones. Before you know it you could have your rights removed for ne good reason other than someones perceived concern for the greater good
    I am all for progress. I am a straight male with many gay friends and I think that even Canadian society, as free as we are still need to progress in a great many ways. That said, I don't think our Canadian rights are in any danger at all. We live in one of the most free country's in the world. We need to worry about going too far left and leaving ourselves vulnerable to the criminals who have inherited too many rights. A right to television and turkey dinners and weight rooms while my grandparent's suffer in senior homes only getting two baths per week. We, as Canadians, need to worry that we venture too far left where we start to think that ANY change is good change. We need to keep our society safe from criminals, as not all people can be rehabilitated. As the saying goes, "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink." The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few and the safety of our community should always come before considering the rehabilitation of convicted violent criminals who refuse to integrate themselves into society.
    Last edited by Mla; 09-08-2013 at 05:18 AM.

  55. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by McBoo View Post
    It's a sad case, all around. The woman is clearly a sadist and I've little doubt that her next victim will be human.

    I've also little hope that she can be rehabilitated.

    Still, we can't jail someone for something they might do - and we shouldn't want a law that would allow for that. It'd be a law way too wide open to abuse.

    Still - the consequence of doing nothing will be some random person's death sentence waiting to happen - and that's the saddest part of all.

    It's the ultimate price of a free society.
    What we have failed to realize id that we con't have to do nothing... but what could be done is often viewed (by some) as lefty socialist garbage that just wastes tax dollars.
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  56. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mla View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    This person, although a concern, needs support not prison.
    Agree, but I think her "support" should be in the form of keeping the public safe from her. She might not need a "prison", but it should definitely have a locked door.
    You have to remember at one time society would have viewed me, a gay male, as one of these people who should be behind a "locked door". When you start locking people away without cause for the "greater good" its a slippery slope.

    You must be VERY careful what you advocate for or promote. There are apparent consequences and unapparent ones. Before you know it you could have your rights removed for ne good reason other than someones perceived concern for the greater good
    I am all for progress. I am a straight male with many gay friends and I think that even Canadian society, as free as we are still need to progress in a great many ways. That said, I don't think our Canadian rights are in any danger at all. We live in one of the most free country's in the world. We need to worry about going too far left and leaving ourselves vulnerable to the criminals who have inherited too many rights. A right to television and turkey dinners and weight rooms while my grandparent's suffer in senior homes only getting two baths per week. We, as Canadians, need to worry that we venture too far left where we start to think that ANY change is good change. We need to keep our society safe from criminals, as not all people can be rehabilitated. As the saying goes, "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink." The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few and the safety of our community should always come before considering the rehabilitation of convicted violent criminals who refuse to integrate themselves into society.
    We should always assume our rights are endangered... I personally have only had the right for equality under the law for 16 years and the right to marriage equality for less than than. I am very AWARE of what the gov't is doing with MY rights.

    These dangerous statements about equating reform to political spectrum is really really not helping... Reform is required. If locking people up solved the problem it would have done so a long long time ago. The statements about refusing to integrate are also in poor form in some instances its the inability to integrate or society not allowing the integration.

    Justice and punishment cannot be as simple as we want it to be. This isn't white spy vs black spy and this old school ideal of labeling people as "bad" which means "bad" things should be done to them is well.... medieval

    I have a friend in my life who is disabled. He had a brush with the law due to the disability. He is normally a model citizen despite his highly stigmatized disorder. The "laws" idea of "punishment" and "rehabilitation" is to put him into a program which may include group therapy, invasive home checks and other such things that could make the situation worse and drive him to have another incident. This is where the ignorant public's demand for "something" to be done conflicts with what is truly best with the individual mixed into an overwhelmed justice system.
    Last edited by edmonton daily photo; 09-08-2013 at 11:09 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by McBoo View Post
    It's a sad case, all around. The woman is clearly a sadist and I've little doubt that her next victim will be human.

    I've also little hope that she can be rehabilitated. (ETC, ETC)
    What we have failed to realize id that we con't have to do nothing... but what could be done is often viewed (by some) as lefty socialist garbage that just wastes tax dollars.
    Not sure where you're going here. This woman is almost certainly a sociopath, for which there is no cure and no amount of rehabilitation is going to prevent her inflicting further cruelties on someone.

    If we could devise a law that would only lock people like her up, I'd be for it. Sadly, I doubt we could make such a law restrictive enough that it wouldn't be abused - so I would oppose it.

    The price of freedom.

    As for left, right, whatever - I have a high school buddy I see every now and then on his occasional stints outside of jail ... usually for various types of theft.

    He isn't the least interested in being rehabilitated. He does the crime, seems perfectly fine doing the time and, for him it's apparently better than working at a real job.

    That part about getting old and having no pension doesn't seem to have entered in the least into his thinking.
    ... gobsmacked

  58. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by McBoo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by McBoo View Post
    It's a sad case, all around. The woman is clearly a sadist and I've little doubt that her next victim will be human.

    I've also little hope that she can be rehabilitated. (ETC, ETC)
    What we have failed to realize id that we con't have to do nothing... but what could be done is often viewed (by some) as lefty socialist garbage that just wastes tax dollars.
    Not sure where you're going here. This woman is almost certainly a sociopath, for which there is no cure and no amount of rehabilitation is going to prevent her inflicting further cruelties on someone.

    If we could devise a law that would only lock people like her up, I'd be for it. Sadly, I doubt we could make such a law restrictive enough that it wouldn't be abused - so I would oppose it.

    The price of freedom.

    As for left, right, whatever - I have a high school buddy I see every now and then on his occasional stints outside of jail ... usually for various types of theft.

    He isn't the least interested in being rehabilitated. He does the crime, seems perfectly fine doing the time and, for him it's apparently better than working at a real job.

    That part about getting old and having no pension doesn't seem to have entered in the least into his thinking.
    I am talking in general for the most part. The mentally ill rarely need to be locked up, but often require constant and regular support. If you treat her as nothing more than the sum of her symptoms that is all she will be... I have no doubt that she is dangerous.... but a sportive living environment with sensible restrictions that remove all sharps and such could still mean that this lady has a good life.

    As for your friend he likely commits the crimes to get back into jail. The society he has integrated into is the institutional one.
    Last edited by edmonton daily photo; 09-08-2013 at 11:40 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by McBoo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by McBoo View Post
    It's a sad case, all around. The woman is clearly a sadist and I've little doubt that her next victim will be human.

    I've also little hope that she can be rehabilitated. (ETC, ETC)
    What we have failed to realize id that we con't have to do nothing... but what could be done is often viewed (by some) as lefty socialist garbage that just wastes tax dollars.
    Not sure where you're going here. This woman is almost certainly a sociopath, for which there is no cure and no amount of rehabilitation is going to prevent her inflicting further cruelties on someone.

    If we could devise a law that would only lock people like her up, I'd be for it. Sadly, I doubt we could make such a law restrictive enough that it wouldn't be abused - so I would oppose it.

    The price of freedom.

    As for left, right, whatever - I have a high school buddy I see every now and then on his occasional stints outside of jail ... usually for various types of theft.

    He isn't the least interested in being rehabilitated. He does the crime, seems perfectly fine doing the time and, for him it's apparently better than working at a real job.

    That part about getting old and having no pension doesn't seem to have entered in the least into his thinking.
    I am talking in general for the most part. The mentally ill rarely need to be locked up, but often require constant and regular support. If you treat her as nothing more than the sum of her symptoms that is all she will be... I have no doubt that she is dangerous.... but a sportive living environment with sensible restrictions that remove all sharps and such could still mean that this lady has a good life.

    As for your friend he likely commits the crimes to get back into jail. The society he has integrated into is the institutional one.
    Many criminals have adopted the same lifestyle and our weak system perpetuates it.

    http://www.edmontonsun.com/2013/08/0...g-more-charges

    Like seriously?
    Last edited by Mla; 12-08-2013 at 04:25 AM.

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    Need more jails. Like in 'merica. That will solve it all.

    Personally, I wish capitol punishment was legal again. I mean, we got DNA kinda stuff these days. But hey, what do I know.

    There's a massive [government employment] industry built around protecting these creeps.

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    I never said more jails. This is quite clearly not a blanket issue but when we release violent offenders, with high risk of re-offending, into the community I think the government is failing at keeping the general public safe.
    Last edited by Mla; 31-12-2014 at 05:29 AM. Reason: Context needs clarifying

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    I know you never said more jails, I was being silly. In a 'merica sense.

    Your sorta right though, the government is failing. In order for them to protect us, we need to give them 99.9% of our liberties. Are you prepared for that? I know I'm not. So where do we go from here? They gotta start hiring more people to watch the creeps. That costs a lot of money though.

    Like I said, with DNA these days, bring back Capitol Punishment.
    Last edited by Kitlope; 31-12-2014 at 06:11 AM.

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    Justice system in Canada or elsewhere have some good and some bad laws
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mla View Post
    This is quite clearly not a blanket issue but when we release violent offenders, with high risk of re-offending, into the community I think the government is failing at keeping the general public safe.
    Absolutely. People who are a demonstrated danger to the public should not be given all these third, fourth, and fifth chances to do it all over again.

    The number of victims left in a criminal's wake is not worth the salvation of one criminal's life.

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    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...dren-1.2989948

    And yet again... these are the kinds of people who SHOULD NOT be released!

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    ^ Disgusting.

    Also, can't they get a better photo of that animal? It's so pixellated I wouldn't recognize him.

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    I'm not deluded enough to suggest that people like this make up a majority of the criminals in Canada. In fact, I argue that it's criminals like this who are in the minority. But minority or not they still pose a HUGE danger to society and need to be dealt with accordingly. If they are not fit to be released and are at such a risk of re-offending then they are quite obviously not yet rehabilitated. And if they aren't rehabilitated then why are we releasing them? It makes no sense...

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    http://www.edmontonsun.com/2015/03/3...iolent-charges

    This guy should have been deemed a dangerous offender a long time ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mla View Post
    I'm not deluded enough to suggest that people like this make up a majority of the criminals in Canada. In fact, I argue that it's criminals like this who are in the minority. But minority or not they still pose a HUGE danger to society and need to be dealt with accordingly. If they are not fit to be released and are at such a risk of re-offending then they are quite obviously not yet rehabilitated. And if they aren't rehabilitated then why are we releasing them? It makes no sense...
    There is no real effective rehabilitation for Sexual predation.

    One of the problems though is an increase in sexual offenders in population correlates to how much failure there has been in society protecting children from harm. Because these people we call animals and monsters often case had the same filthy things happen to them when they were children. Pedophilia is largely learned, ingrained behavior.
    Among the poor it often occurs due to lack of universal or affordable or easily available daycare that would mitigate that children are often being left alone with caregivers that are not at all appropriate to be looking after children. Indeed pedophiles often target low income families, become friends, or boyfriends of the mom and perpetuate the vicious cycle of sexual predation of children in that way. If you happen to be a single mother out there reading this and have a recent friend who seems very interested in "helping you" by looking after your children while you go out and even encourages this be very suspect of the intentions.

    Universal daycare, at zero cost to the parents, and even much more availability of respite homes is required to alleviate this predation problem.

    Show me a pedophile and I'll show you somebody that was molested repeatedly as a child.

    We need PREVENTATIVE measures to deal with this complex issue. Not more jails, more free daycares. WE see the benefit, or the cost, decades later.

    But are we really willing to pay for the solution?
    Last edited by Replacement; 31-03-2015 at 12:44 AM.
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    Being preventative would include breaking the cycle by keeping pedophiles in jail where they cannot victimize anymore children. I'm all for OTHER preventative measures as well but just doing social programs ignores the other side of the coin. Why are we releasing dangerous repeat offenders? There is no good answer for it.

    When I argue to keep offenders in jail I'm not saying we should not be looking at preventative measures, I'm saying we should be doing both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mla View Post
    Being preventative would include breaking the cycle by keeping pedophiles in jail where they cannot victimize anymore children. I'm all for OTHER preventative measures as well but just doing social programs ignores the other side of the coin. Why are we releasing dangerous repeat offenders? There is no good answer for it.

    When I argue to keep offenders in jail I'm not saying we should not be looking at preventative measures, I'm saying we should be doing both.
    Yeah, at this point we have no choice but to do both. But decades of bad policy, social problems, lack of spending to mitigate, have resulted in this.

    The worst thing as a society is we end up paying at BOTH ends, as you have suggested, which is actually much more expensive than properly employing sensible preventative societal solutions which are much cheaper. Think about how much money is involved in incarcerating one man or women vs how much cost is required to provide daycare/respite to help protect children from harm. Now factor in that criminals are a rest of life expense and with society often picking up the bill for decades of incarceration, probation, half way housing etc. Children only need around a 12yr commitment to protect them from most harm. With this being lowcost endeavor.

    But there is seldom the political will to do those things. The movers and shakers in our society are quite content living in upper income enclaves where they would typically experience little of this problem, and wouldn't even think about having their children share schools with kids that are impacted by this socioeconomic malaise.

    From my perspective, being immersed in this field, what I see as societies usual reaction is to label "monster", "animal" and then turn to the next news story. While applauding socio cost cutting in the same newscast and wondering why some people turn out bad in this world...

    Sorry if I'm cynical by now.
    Last edited by Replacement; 31-03-2015 at 01:42 AM.
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    This is a really good idea. Do we have anything like this in Canada?

    http://money.cnn.com/2015/07/29/news...apell0400story

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitlope View Post
    Need more jails. Like in 'merica. That will solve it all.

    Personally, I wish capitol punishment was legal again. I mean, we got DNA kinda stuff these days. But hey, what do I know.

    There's a massive [government employment] industry built around protecting these creeps.
    Totally agree; it is not so much about deterring (although it may for some), but it is about justice. Of course, I also think death is too good for some; languishing in prison, knowing what people on the outside get to enjoy everyday that they cannot...seems like a better form of punishment!

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    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/crim...-pleads-guilty

    3 1/2 years?!?!?!? Seriously that's it?!

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    ^Out in a year with parole probably (maybe less if credit for remand)... wouldn't surprise me to see offending again (this is why we need longer sentences, it might not deter other people, but keeps scum bags off the street / from hurting people). For every case like this that goes to court and results in a prosecution, there are probably a couple of dozen that don't
    Last edited by moahunter; 27-04-2016 at 12:52 PM.

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    3 1/2 years is very light. I don't mind a 1 for 1 credit for remand, they are legally getting punished before they are found guilty. But I think Matthews should have received 10 years. Emberley 5-6 years.

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    These are the types of people that should never have contact with the outside world again. They have no capacity to do good.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    I somewhat agree Chmilz, but if we say murder gets 20 years, assault should get a lower sentence. We can't punish them for the crimes they might do, only for what they've done.

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