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Thread: Downtown Retail | Discussion

  1. #8401
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenSPACE View Post
    ^What? That's amazing if true! Just from a street interaction standpoint.
    More to come for Energy Square in a very positive way.
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  2. #8402
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    Some ICE grocery guesses:
    - Loblaws CityMarket, assuming they don't cannibalize their Brewery District location
    - Co-op, would it be a stretch for them to test out a new urban format?
    - Sobeys, any chance they come to their senses and re-open Urban Fresh in ICE District?
    - Italian Centre
    - T&T
    - Urban Fare
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  3. #8403

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    ^Italian Centre is also probably too close to the 95th street location. Save-On, Safeway, Loblaws are all too close already.

    It would actually be a good location for another T&T and would be complementary to the nearby Chinatown. As long as they keep their prices on the high side like their other locations, it wouldn't really cannibalize the small Chinatown grocers that compete on price. The West Ed store has a very diverse customer base, so I think there's a fairly broad appeal (way more than an organic store). Not really sure how if it would fit in the Ice District, but who knows.

  4. #8404

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    Any of them would have to deal with downtown lease rates and a reliance on regular moderate-purchase local foot traffic to a site on the north edge of the district, willing to pay a premium for convenience.

    How big a space is being considered?
    I feel in no way entitled to your opinion...

  5. #8405

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    A full Sunterra Market could fit the bill - they're pricey and tend to be in more urban locations. They could move from commerce place and expand.

  6. #8406

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    Quote Originally Posted by barhonda View Post
    Trader Joe's is way more practical than a organic store IMO. I think it would do good in the Sobey's Location.
    Not directly disagreeing, but now on the eve of ICE District, I'm really not sure that confidence Downtown is ready to go from zero to two grocery stores. At the very least, whoever goes into the Sobey's space is going to want to know what they're up against down the block with 2,500 parking spaces directly beneath before they even breathe "rate/sqft."

    I think two grocery stores might make it simultaneously, but not so sure if so if they're in similar niches. If ICE is Whole Foods, I'm pretty sure Planet Organic doesn't take the Sobey's space, etc.

    I think there's a good chance of either non-food or breaking into thirds.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  7. #8407

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    Quote Originally Posted by GizmoForMayor View Post
    Hearing that HDF insurance in the Energy Square Building (Jasper & 106 Street) is moving out and, wait for it, a Starbucks is moving in.
    HDF has a sign up on their entrance. They will be moving across the street into the old HSBC space as of January 30th

  8. #8408

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    Quote Originally Posted by B.ike View Post
    Save-ons is too close for another one.
    I wouldn't say that. If there's enough density to justify another store, and once the Stantec/Delta condo towers are in there likely will be, I could see either an Urban Fare or Save-On there. Whichever shop sets up there will take some business from Save-On on 109th anyways, so it might as well be an Overwaitea Group/Jim Pattison store from the company's perspective. The 109th street store is still very busy, even after City Market opened, so I'm sure they'd be interested in further business downtown.

  9. #8409

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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by barhonda View Post
    Trader Joe's is way more practical than a organic store IMO. I think it would do good in the Sobey's Location.
    Not directly disagreeing, but now on the eve of ICE District, I'm really not sure that confidence Downtown is ready to go from zero to two grocery stores. At the very least, whoever goes into the Sobey's space is going to want to know what they're up against down the block with 2,500 parking spaces directly beneath before they even breathe "rate/sqft."

    I think two grocery stores might make it simultaneously, but not so sure if so if they're in similar niches. If ICE is Whole Foods, I'm pretty sure Planet Organic doesn't take the Sobey's space, etc.

    I think there's a good chance of either non-food or breaking into thirds.
    I agree. There is no logical grocery taker for the Sobey's space. Something like No Frills would work, but Loblaws won't compete with it's Shoppers locations. With two storey Shoppers in ECC, also unlikely. So that doesn't leave a lot of options except for some smaller independents. More likely that the space is non-grocery or gets broken up. I'd love to see a Canadian Tire Express for instance.
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  10. #8410

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    Does anyone know if Urban Sparq considered the former Sobeys space?

    Since it fronts Jasper ave, I think it would have been a more ideal location than the Fox podium. In fact, I think the fox podium should have something like an H&W.

  11. #8411
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ustauk View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by B.ike View Post
    Save-ons is too close for another one.
    I wouldn't say that. If there's enough density to justify another store, and once the Stantec/Delta condo towers are in there likely will be, I could see either an Urban Fare or Save-On there. Whichever shop sets up there will take some business from Save-On on 109th anyways, so it might as well be an Overwaitea Group/Jim Pattison store from the company's perspective. The 109th street store is still very busy, even after City Market opened, so I'm sure they'd be interested in further business downtown.
    Think I agree with this.
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  12. #8412

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    Quote Originally Posted by B.ike View Post
    Does anyone know if Urban Sparq considered the former Sobeys space?

    Since it fronts Jasper ave, I think it would have been a more ideal location than the Fox podium. In fact, I think the fox podium should have something like an H&W.
    H&W would take up most the first floor of the podium? I'd be interested to see who supports that, considering the group of the history of those threads surrounding what was originally proposed in that podium.

  13. #8413

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    I can't see H & W's margins paying the rent in Fox. H & M margins margins maybe.

    I think Urban Sparq would run into the same scenario with the Sobeys space that they did with Fox.

    104 has guidelines. They do make exceptions, but not that big.
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  14. #8414

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    Mercer on one end, Urban Sparq on the other.
    And the H&W only needs two or three retail bays - nowhere near the 80% of Fox II podium that was proposed for the bar.

    But yes, it's just a fantasy. Don't see H&W happening.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenSPACE
    More likely that the space is non-grocery or gets broken up.


    I don't agree at all. OEG/Katz know that with their developments alone there's 1500+ condos/apartments being built in the area, there NEEDS to be a full service or near full service grocery store in the development.

  16. #8416

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    ^ believe he's referring to the 104th Sobey's space.

    Ice District absolutely needs a fully serviced grocery chain.

  17. #8417
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    Ah, if that's the case, then my mistake.

  18. #8418

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenSPACE
    More likely that the space is non-grocery or gets broken up.


    I don't agree at all. OEG/Katz know that with their developments alone there's 1500+ condos/apartments being built in the area, there NEEDS to be a full service or near full service grocery store in the development.
    Yes, the additional condos/apartments strengthen the argument for a full service grocery store in the area. However, it does not necessarily need to be in the old Sobey's space. One of the issues with downtown street level retail is the sq. foot rental rate and grocery stores do not have big margins.

    One potential solution - look to the past. Where were the old full service grocery stores downtown? - mostly in the basement level. Now, the old Woodwards grocery space in City Centre space is being used for parking, but perhaps there is some existing or new non street level space elsewhere in the area that might work.

  19. #8419

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    Yes, I meant Sobey's.
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  20. #8420
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    http://edmontonjournal.com/life/food...r-rogers-place

    Opening new restaurants can be a painfully slow business. But Vivo Ristorante, expanding from the west end into downtown, is opening part of its new 15,000-square- foot, 300-seat restaurant near Rogers Place toward the end of January.

    The first stage is Vivo itself, a twin of the west-end space and located on the second floor at 10506 106 St. The second part of the expansion will follow in mid-February, and see a pizzeria and a taverna opening on the main floor.

    Of note: Vivo has hired master pizziaolo Carlo Raillo (formerly of Buco) to sling the dough at the pizzeria. Born in Naples to a family with strong culinary roots, he received his Pizzaiolo Diploma from the Associazione Pizzaioli Italiana in 2003. A four-time Canadian Champion Pizza Chef, Carlo will compete in the National Pizza Competition in Las Vegas in March 2017.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  21. #8421
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    Great addition to the area, but still curious to see how the location works for them.
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  22. #8422

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenSPACE View Post
    Yes, I meant Sobey's.
    Rumour has it site has all but been sub-leased. Possibly a restaurant on the corner and a smaller site mid-block.

  23. #8423
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    Hmmm... interesting. Would love a restaurant there (patio on 104st) and a retail bay.
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    It was such a nice night so I decided to go for a long walk around downtown to see what the Saturday nightlife was like after an Oilers home game. I ate too much anyway so I had to burn off some fuel. I basically went from the arena to 101 St, made my way to RHW then down Jasper Ave to the Pearl, turned around, cut through Oliver past Gas Pump and former Overtime (now Prive), then down 109 St then home. I didn't go inside any places except for the Grand Villa. The main streets were busy as expected.

    Big lineups:
    Hudsons
    Pint
    Avenue
    Central Social Hall
    On The Rocks

    No lineups but busy:
    Grand Villa casino plus Match pub
    Joey
    Craft
    Bar Bricco
    Rocky Mountain Icehouse
    Needle
    Red Star
    Knoxvilles
    O2s
    Cactus Club
    Local Public Eatery
    Urban Tavern
    Sultan (next to Hudsons)

    Half-busy half-dead:
    State & Main
    Remedy
    Boston Pizza
    Gas Pump - I think the billiards side was closed off
    Ikki Izakaya - then again 5 patrons makes it look busy!

    Dead:
    Atlas - the one part of Grand Villa that was quiet
    MacLeod Tavern
    Tapa Vino - then again this place is always dead
    Earls Tin Palace

    Closed by the time game was over:
    Tres Carnales
    The Hat
    BRU

    Permanently closed:
    Alibi
    Society

    Unsure due to distance or no windows to peek through, but could see people coming and going:
    Rose & Crown Pub
    Sherlock Holmes
    Underground
    Studio 107
    Blvd
    Circus
    Clementine
    Chic Hog Os
    Prive
    Canadian Brewhouse
    Last edited by Sonic Death Monkey; 15-01-2017 at 11:17 PM.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  25. #8425

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    ^ That's more like it. Credit where due.

    Yeah, Atlas, yeah. Needs a reboot already. I keep expecting the same from State and Main, but musta been the Flames' fans. Ha ha.

    And yeah, what is up with places closing early on a Saturday event night? Come on guys, hustle!

    But the big picture is the huge picture. So much going on, and it used to be that Boston Pizza was all we had. Getting full circle now.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  26. #8426
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    Nice review/analysis.

    There are also ~600 University students in town this weekend, Westin being the host hotel, for JDCWest (case study). I also saw a ton of Flames fans coming out of hotels.

    Atlas has delicious food, but a lot of people are unaware of it or don't make the time for it pre-game. Service was very just ok to not great, but the space is very nice. Tweak, promo, not redo.
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  27. #8427

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    That was really interesting, thanks!

    One more: you didn't walk past Kelly's, but that place is always hopping after a game (I live above it). I'd be curious to hear about Stage 104 at the end of our block if someone else wanted to report on its post-game traffic.
    “It’s so beautiful. What sort of bird is that?”

  28. #8428
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    I didn't walk down 104 St after the game - I already know it gets busy since many people pass through it to get to the Bay LRT station.

    As for Atlas, maybe another issue is that it's upstairs and there's no escalator (a sad commentary on people's mobility choices). The table game room upstairs wasn't as busy either, which is OK if you want to get away from the sardine can atmosphere below.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  29. #8429

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    Isn't Atlas kind of fancy? To me that kind of place is great for a before-game meal, but for an after-game drink and possibly munchies at most, I'm looking for something with a little less of a commitment.
    “It’s so beautiful. What sort of bird is that?”

  30. #8430
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    Yes, upscale pricing.

    As for 2nd floor tables, those are SERIOUS coin aka high rollerville.
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    Hawkeyes Too was busy post-game.

  32. #8432
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    Such a great post-game spot, especially with karaoke.
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    Hilarious.

    Top_Dawg found out long ago that it's best to be good and pi$$ed before Hawkeye's karaoke starts up.

    Less trauma to the ears.

    Most of it sounds like like a magpie getting it's nuts cut off.

  34. #8434
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    Come listen to my Bon Jovi
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    ^I suggest nobody subject themselves to such misery. Ha!

  36. #8436

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    @SDM, also add Mercer to the post-game busy line up list.

    @Idealistic Pragmistic, Stage 104 is open irregularly now, it's up for sale.

    IanO and karaoke - listen at your own peril
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  37. #8437
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    Unfortunate to hear on Stage 104, but that place was incredibly poorly run from what I saw (I went approx. 4 times, and the 3 times we ordered food they were out of numerous menu items. The 4th time was just for drinks, and I spent an hour feeling bad for the sole waitress trying to serve 10+ tables with no bartender). It's such a great space, but it really needs the right concept and more importantly the right ownership and management to make a go of it.

  38. #8438
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    It was such a nice night so I decided to go for a long walk around downtown to see what the Saturday nightlife was like after an Oilers home game. I ate too much anyway so I had to burn off some fuel. I basically went from the arena to 101 St, made my way to RHW then down Jasper Ave to the Pearl, turned around, cut through Oliver past Gas Pump and former Overtime (now Prive), then down 109 St then home. I didn't go inside any places except for the Grand Villa. The main streets were busy as expected.

    Big lineups:
    Hudsons
    Pint
    Avenue
    Central Social Hall
    On The Rocks

    No lineups but busy:
    Grand Villa casino plus Match pub
    Joey
    Craft
    Bar Bricco
    Rocky Mountain Icehouse
    Needle
    Red Star
    Knoxvilles
    O2s
    Cactus Club
    Local Public Eatery
    Urban Tavern
    Sultan (next to Hudsons)

    Half-busy half-dead:
    State & Main
    Remedy
    Boston Pizza
    Gas Pump - I think the billiards side was closed off
    Ikki Izakaya - then again 5 patrons makes it look busy!

    Dead:
    Atlas - the one part of Grand Villa that was quiet
    MacLeod Tavern
    Tapa Vino - then again this place is always dead
    Earls Tin Palace

    Closed by the time game was over:
    Tres Carnales
    The Hat
    BRU

    Permanently closed:
    Alibi
    Society

    Unsure due to distance or no windows to peek through, but could see people coming and going:
    Rose & Crown Pub
    Sherlock Holmes
    Underground
    Studio 107
    Blvd
    Circus
    Clementine
    Chic Hog Os
    Prive
    Canadian Brewhouse

    Top_Dawg thanks you for popping into The Azz Pump and buying Top_Dawg a coupla beer.

    Yeah, that MacLeod Tavern re-brand is falling flat. Everytime Top_Dawg goes by there, night or day, it's totally empty.

  39. #8439
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Unfortunate to hear on Stage 104, but that place was incredibly poorly run from what I saw (I went approx. 4 times, and the 3 times we ordered food they were out of numerous menu items. The 4th time was just for drinks, and I spent an hour feeling bad for the sole waitress trying to serve 10+ tables with no bartender). It's such a great space, but it really needs the right concept and more importantly the right ownership and management to make a go of it.
    Original Joe's would kill it in that location. Has the following to fill the space, too. Independents have no hope in there.
    YEG lifer. Phillips liver.

  40. #8440

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    ^It's also way bigger than people think. 170 seats. Needs a proprietor that can operate a successful concept in a space that large, and has the resources to back them up.
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  41. #8441
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    Yeah, it's a big space. Which is why I'm surprised that it hasn't attracted attention from a chain/franchise. OJ's would probably be a pretty good fit, actually. They'd do steady business for lunch, as well as dinner/evening/events.

  42. #8442
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post
    Top_Dawg thanks you for popping into The Azz Pump and buying Top_Dawg a coupla beer.

    Yeah, that MacLeod Tavern re-brand is falling flat. Everytime Top_Dawg goes by there, night or day, it's totally empty.
    Nice try but I didn't actually go into any bars, just walked by them.

    As for Stage 104, I think a KEG would make a killing in that space.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenSPACE View Post
    ^It's also way bigger than people think. 170 seats. Needs a proprietor that can operate a successful concept in a space that large, and has the resources to back them up.
    See ---> 'The Keg'

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    The Keg has long since become a suburban power center chain, unfortunately. I agree that it would be great there, and I'd probably be eating 3 baseball steaks a week if that came to pass. But I just don't see it happening.

  45. #8445

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    ^Wasen't there rumours floating around that the Keg might take up some space in Fox 2?

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    I think some have mentioned that Keg was looking at opening in the Brewery District.

    The Keg used to buy historical buildings and turn them into restaurants, it would be sad if they have now abandoned this policy, because the building and its proximity to ICE District would be perfect.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  47. #8447

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    Maybe urban sparq can look into the Stage104 space
    good size for a sport pub.

    Keg is already slated for the brewery, not sure they have plans for anything inside downtown.

  48. #8448
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    Quote Originally Posted by SDM
    it would be sad if they have now abandoned this policy


    They abandoned it 10+ years ago. The Old Strathcona Keg is an anomaly, when you look at their locations:
    https://www.kegsteakhouse.com/#!/locations/#siteContent

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    H&M is moving in to City Centre West where ATB financial is/was, apparently. Not sure if that's already been posted somewhere.

    edit: not sure if that even makes sense, now that I think about it. Seems like a small space for H&M. I'm just reposting a lead from another contractor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    H&M is moving in to City Centre West where ATB financial is/was, apparently. Not sure if that's already been posted somewhere.

    edit: not sure if that even makes sense, now that I think about it. Seems like a small space for H&M. I'm just reposting a lead from another contractor.
    That would be nice. CCM is missing that sort of niche since Urban left.
    YEG lifer. Phillips liver.

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    That is the rumour... assumed that they would take the old Urban as well?
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  53. #8453
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    Why is Burrow so delicious? More of these small, unique spaces please and thank you.


    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C2YcqhJUcAEMXh8.jpg
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    ^ Are they doing good business these days? Haven't heard much from them after the crime concerns they had last year

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    EPS and ETS have assisted greatly. Not sure to be honest, but often when I go there is a small line.
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  56. #8456

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    H&M is moving in to City Centre West where ATB financial is/was, apparently. Not sure if that's already been posted somewhere.

    edit: not sure if that even makes sense, now that I think about it. Seems like a small space for H&M. I'm just reposting a lead from another contractor.
    I had heard a similar rumour, but not where it was going. It would make sense if it was taking the former Urban space, ideally with store frontage at grade on that corner. So maybe some of ATB or just the former Ricky's entrance?
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    Quote Originally Posted by AUsenik View Post
    ^ Are they doing good business these days? Haven't heard much from them after the crime concerns they had last year
    There's almost always a line-up whenever I go (which is usually weekly, sometimes more often).

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenSPACE View Post
    I had heard a similar rumour, but not where it was going. It would make sense if it was taking the former Urban space, ideally with store frontage at grade on that corner. So maybe some of ATB or just the former Ricky's entrance?
    Yeah, not really sure. Apparently Ledcor is the GC. That's all the info I have.

  59. #8459
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    The former Urban space still has the Leased signs on its wall so I assumed that was where H&M was going to.
    I was not aware that ATB was closing.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  60. #8460
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    H&M is moving in to City Centre West where ATB financial is/was, apparently. Not sure if that's already been posted somewhere.

    edit: not sure if that even makes sense, now that I think about it. Seems like a small space for H&M. I'm just reposting a lead from another contractor.
    They are going into the corner where ATB was, it will be two-levels.

  61. #8461

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    ^ATB is still there, so I'm assuming ATB is moving?
    www.decl.org

  62. #8462
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    A two story Shoppers fronting 103ave and a two story H&M on 102ave. That's a pretty big change on 101street for ECC.

    Bay Reno and Hotel Reno would be great...including outside!

  63. #8463

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    ^Delta Hotel reno is 50% complete. Should be completed by this summer including lobby and Coco's lounge
    www.decl.org

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    ^Good. Is there currently a sadder hotel lounge downtown than Coco's?

  65. #8465

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    H&M is moving in to City Centre West where ATB financial is/was, apparently. Not sure if that's already been posted somewhere.

    edit: not sure if that even makes sense, now that I think about it. Seems like a small space for H&M. I'm just reposting a lead from another contractor.
    This is the retailer I was alluding to with this post last July:

    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    A major new clothing retailer will be opening at City Centre next year. I won't say who, but it's far better than Forever 21 (whom quite a while ago I'd heard had been a target as well), and you'll all know it instantly. I won't likely shop there much myself, but it gives me confidence that the mall has indeed begun to communicate a vision that potential tenants take seriously. (Which you all know I've been doubtful.)
    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    All I'll say is that the soon-to-be-announced tenant gives me the same sort of optimism I felt when Mexx chose CCM as their fourth Edmonton mall -- a nose into the conversation among "real malls."

    Also I don't forsee a similar Mexxesque demise either. This one should be a permanent gain.

    No idea what this vision is they're peddling either, if it's just "look at our lovely new neighbour", or "look at our actual plan to co-opt the spotlight for ourselves", or the vast ocean between the two.


    Which it seems everyone and their dog somehow "guessed" immediately afterward.
    Last edited by JayBee; 18-01-2017 at 03:05 AM.
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    Crash Hotel Bar for pre-Oilers. A bit of an odd smell, but a great little reno and it could/will be a fun place to grab some drinks and snacks pre/post Oiler games. The meatballs looked incredible.
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  67. #8467
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    Denizen also has an odd smell.

    You can't paint over the things that have happened in that place...

  68. #8468

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenSPACE View Post
    ^ATB is still there, so I'm assuming ATB is moving?
    Great news about the H&M. Hope they include a bit of the their H&M home line.
    As an account holder, I'm also curious where the ATB might move to.

  69. #8469

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanC View Post
    Denizen also has an odd smell.

    You can't paint over the things that have happened in that place...
    To follow on this and SDM's list, I stayed in the core last night (as opposed to commute to Sh. Pk then come back) to go to the Oiler game, met my son who is attending MacEwan and we went looking for a place to eat/drink before the game. We chose Mercer (which I like) and must say 'crazy hopping busy' would be an understatement. An absolute license to print money. Good on them for timing, vision and offering a good product and service was terrific given the busyness. I like to try all kinds of haunts when I'm DT but when I like something I'll support. I will visit some other places (I frequent alot of different DT food for my job) but on game night, pretty tough to beat Mercer.
    However, upon leaving my walk included a walk by Denizen....could have fired a cannon through it. Dead. And this at 6:15pm. My timing poor? maybe. Its pretty nicely located and nary a soul.
    He who posteth too much, should moveth out of his parents basement and get a life.

  70. #8470

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    Quote Originally Posted by B.ike View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenSPACE View Post
    ^ATB is still there, so I'm assuming ATB is moving?
    Great news about the H&M. Hope they include a bit of the their H&M home line.
    As an account holder, I'm also curious where the ATB might move to.
    Can't say too much, but ATB is staying on the west side.

    Also told negotiations ongoing with 3-4 other minor but significant retailers currently exclusive to WEM. (their exclusivity agreements run out soon).

    Also, although new 2-storey Shoppers on east side, west side is staying put (two different owners).
    www.decl.org

  71. #8471
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    ^ Here's hoping that the mall will reach a point where they can let the lease of the west Shoppers expire. I can understand retaining both Shoppers all this time out of desperation for keeping retail bays filled, but one mall with two Shoppers is goofy.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  72. #8472

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenSPACE View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by B.ike View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenSPACE View Post
    ^ATB is still there, so I'm assuming ATB is moving?
    Great news about the H&M. Hope they include a bit of the their H&M home line.
    As an account holder, I'm also curious where the ATB might move to.
    Can't say too much, but ATB is staying on the west side.

    Also told negotiations ongoing with 3-4 other minor but significant retailers currently exclusive to WEM. (their exclusivity agreements run out soon).

    Also, although new 2-storey Shoppers on east side, west side is staying put (two different owners).
    If those 4 from WEM would be Thomas Sabo, Swatch, DeSerres, and Simons, I'd be able to skip WEM entirely.

    Ha ha, yeah dreaming.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  73. #8473
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    Hoo boy, Simons would be stellar (says the girlfriend)
    YEG lifer. Phillips liver.

  74. #8474

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    (although he did say 'minor')
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  75. #8475

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    ^What I've heard is they are smaller retailers but currently exclusive to WEM. Someone can probably make a list

    I'm thinking Oxford could benefit from retailers wanting to come to Ice District but not being able to afford to and looking to ECC as an option. Fingers crossed.
    www.decl.org

  76. #8476

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    ^ here too. The theory and the reality are pretty sold though, it should happen. My only concern is will Downtown have a luxury department store. Mid-levels like H&M "should" continue to happen.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  77. #8477

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    ^Downtown has the one and only luxury department store. It's called Holt Renfrew. It's the exclusive retailer to both Burburry and Louis Vuitton. But if you mean something like Simons, ya I'd love that too. But probably not any time soon.
    www.decl.org

  78. #8478

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    Ha ha, no, I mean more like a Holt Renfrew triple the size of what we've got now. Or a Saks 5th Ave, or even a Nordstrom (in that order of personal preference.)

    Simons would definitely be welcomed by me, as I said, but it simply isn't the same thing. Simons is mostly cheap chic, with a few mid or I guess upper mid range lines. I'd mostly put Simons in a category with Zara, but sprinkled with some pricier options.

    Our Holt Renfrew is 37k sqft, and very dated. All other Holts are over 100k. Calgary and Vancouver's are 150k, while Toronto's Main location and Montreal's are well over 200k. The four suburban Toronto locations are standardised at 120k square feet now.

    We have an orphan. It only carries a fraction of the goods the others do. The others in its category (Winnipeg, Ottawa, Quebec City, and Toronto's Sherway Gardens) are all gone. Most people I know who buy luxury do so on vacation or on business elsewhere.

    Holt Renfrew has revealed that it will close its smallest location this year, as it prepares to open a massive replacement flagship several kilometres away. The news reflects Holt's strategy to operate stores in excess of 120,000 square feet, bringing the future of its Edmonton store into question, according to one expert.
    Last year, Holt Renfrew closed two of its smallest stores -- a 33,000 square foot unit at Quebec City's Place Ste-Foy, and a 36,000 square foot store at 240 Sparks Street in Ottawa.
    If the Edmonton store were to remain open in its current form, it would be the 'ugly duckling' of the chain -- not only is it too small for Holt's new retail positioning, it has only seen minor updates over the years, and features few of the luxury brands available in Holt's larger stores.
    http://www.retail-insider.com/retail.../holts-sherway
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  79. #8479
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    Nordstrom would be a great addition as well. I am not sure of demand currently though given the economy
    YEG lifer. Phillips liver.

  80. #8480
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenSPACE View Post
    ^What I've heard is they are smaller retailers but currently exclusive to WEM. Someone can probably make a list

    I'm thinking Oxford could benefit from retailers wanting to come to Ice District but not being able to afford to and looking to ECC as an option. Fingers crossed.
    Bingo.

    I am hoping Holt expands and renos as it is very popular with many and certainly a great asset for Downtown.
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  81. #8481

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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinW View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    H&M is moving in to City Centre West where ATB financial is/was, apparently. Not sure if that's already been posted somewhere.

    edit: not sure if that even makes sense, now that I think about it. Seems like a small space for H&M. I'm just reposting a lead from another contractor.
    They are going into the corner where ATB was, it will be two-levels.
    This makes sense. Urban is directly above ATB. H&M must be leasing the ATB space as well as Urban and Eeva & Eve space. Fantastic addition to downtown!

    Here's a floor plan of CC: http://www.oxfordproperties.com/Leas.../31071_RFP.pdf

  82. #8482

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    ^Taking a look at the former Urban space, it wouldn't be large enough alone for H&M. And the ATB space is bigger than I thought. Apparently their safety deposit box and safe takes up 800 sq. ft. they don't really use.
    www.decl.org

  83. #8483

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    H&M is really great news. CC (and downtown in general) is pretty poor for shopping so this is a real boost. It's nice to see Oxford pumping some life into CC instead of waiting for Ice District to arrive and eat their lunch.

    Where is the other ATB located? Is it inside the mall somewhere? I've probably walked by it so many times but I only know the one on the NW corner of 102 and 101.

    Edit: wait nevermind I was confused, believe there's only one ATB
    Last edited by Jameson; 23-01-2017 at 02:56 PM.

  84. #8484

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    Is Eeva and Eve moving, then? I actually really like that store.
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  85. #8485

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    Quote Originally Posted by afairlady View Post
    Here, lets watch me get my head ripped off. I disagree with all of this retail with glass fronts will bring em in droves, Jasper west rejuv will bring em, bla bla downtown revitalize (which is apparently creatively limited to retail and bars) wow that will really make Edmonton stand out...zzzzzzz. What braniac came up with we need more shopping and bars, it's just so dull dull dull. What kind of vanilla yuppy blog is this?

    I think you've got it all wrong, cause yer barking up the wrong city. I dont think thats who we are. I've said it before, besides eating and drinking (booze or coffee), I really find Edmontonians are go home and stay home people. I've often heard people say Edmonton is dull, like a big small town. Or refer to it as Deadmonton. Interesting cities, with variety of things to do, with both accessible nature and fun things to do attracts fun outgoing people (Van, Cal and even some small towns). The energy in those cities is awesome and I dont find any of that energy here, besides population growth, which doesnt really count as energy. I think this city is a reflection of what its putting in to those types of activities. No offense 1 million people. This is anonymous right?

    Does anyone agree at all? I realize that statement wont be true of absolutely everyone so please dont pick it apart too much but havn't you felt of heard any of that before? How do we change that? Is it really just with trendier shopping and more bars? I've been to many of the bars in Edmonton, and I can't say as those are the shining examples of people I want to get to know. No yes?
    Ok, I will try to be polite and not rip your head off because I do think there is some truth in what you say. Edmonton is not Toronto or Vancouver - first it is smaller in size, it doesn't have the same concentration of corporate offices downtown that Toronto does, nor does it attract tourist/cruise ship traffic like say Robson Street in Vancouver. Also, a lot of people in Vancouver seem to actually detest Robson Street and its collection of upscale corporate chains that could be found in many shopping malls elsewhere. Perhaps the milder climate allows for more street front retail there. Parts of West Edmonton Mall are our version of Robson Street.

    However, I do think Edmonton's downtown could still do much better for retail. I think a lot of people who live downtown are actually forced to go Kingsway or elsewhere because of the very limited retail selection downtown. I don't think the growth of retail downtown has kept up with the growth of the city or the downtown. I think people who live here have also come to realize that if a city does not have a lively downtown, it gets a perception of being second rate, boring or dead both by tourists and people that live there - even if that perception is not fair.

    As for being a small town, in some ways that sounds so nice but traffic on the Whitemud is really nothing like that of a small town. Perhaps the nicest way I can put it is that Edmonton's perception of itself has not yet caught up to reality. Calgary seems to think it is Toronto west, we seem to think we are Regina. Of course, neither are accurate. Perhaps there are some people who live here that are more comfortable with the small town myth, but there are also people who live here that desperately want to live in a city that acts like a city of a million, not 300,000. It would be so much easier if they wouldn't have to move to another city to get that.

  86. #8486

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    I don't think it's the people who want a suburban/small-town lifestyle over an urban/core one that are the ones holding tight to a myth. 98% of all development in Edmonton from 2006-2011 was suburban in nature. Even the CoE's most optimistic projections have the vast, vast majority of development will happen at the edge of the city, with the rate of acceleration slowed, but not stopped.

    Many people over-estimate the importance of the highly visible downtown cores and underestimate the vast growth happening in the suburban edges of our metropolitan regions. The population in low-density Auto Suburbs and Exurbs is growing much faster than inner cities and inner suburbs. Despite their inner-city condo booms, even the Toronto and Vancouver metropolitan areas saw five times as much population growth in auto suburbs and exurbs compared to active cores and transit suburbs. Canada is a suburban nation and its population became more suburban from 2006-2011.
    http://www.canadianurbanism.ca/wp-co...las%20comp.pdf
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  87. #8487
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    A big part of the problem that those of us who are not young, professional hipsters see about downtown is that it is aspiring to be a monoculture. I go to a mall or down 104th (if I can even do that past all the hoarding) and mostly what I see are stores selling clothes to teenagers, most of it fast fashion. You can see it in this very thread. People are lusting after new stores, sure. But they're all *clothing* stores. After a certain point, that gets boring. I, for instance, have found my style. I can't buy clothes that either fit or suit me downtown. I've given up. Everything comes to me from online shopping where there are still places a conservative lady can shop.

    As to the restaurants. I've tried a few of the restaurants that people praise on here. I can't get service at those places. They see the gray hair and decide they can take their own sweet time coming over to my table to offer me a menu and a drink. I see them. They're hanging out either behind the bar or at a table where friends of theirs are sitting. When they do decide to come over, the service is dismissive as if it debases them to serve a non-trendy person. So I stick to the sorts of places that do welcome an affluent older person who tips well, converses cheerfully and briefly, and enjoys their dinner and beer. There are fewer and fewer such places.

    Meanwhile, those people that afairlady is describing have no reason to come downtown because there's really no place for them to shop if they're not into fashion or hipster food. Perhaps when the density increases to the point where actual lifestyle stores can open it might change. I'm thinking smaller hardware, smaller furnishings and other household goods. We don't even have office supplies any more.
    Last edited by EveB; 23-01-2017 at 03:46 PM.

  88. #8488

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenSPACE View Post
    ^Downtown has the one and only luxury department store. It's called Holt Renfrew. It's the exclusive retailer to both Burburry and Louis Vuitton. But if you mean something like Simons, ya I'd love that too. But probably not any time soon.
    If anything, in my experience, I've found Henry Singer across the hall to be much higher end for men's clothing here than Holts. Decent tailoring included with purchases. Pretty sure they now carry Kiton suits, which are pretty damn high end. Not sure who is buying 10k suits in Edmonton, but they did carry them for a while. They often have some pretty good trunk sales that come through town too if you'd rather not do straight OTR.

  89. #8489

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    Preach it EveB!

    E: What's extra hilarious to me is the fact that even as we try and "hipsterize" our downtown we're still years & years behind the truly cosmopolitan cities in Canada with regards to trends, even in this day & age of instant global exposure thanks to the internet.

    Downtown has until WEM is connected via LRT to attempt to claw back any relevancy & frankly I don't see how it can, not with the vision of the people currently trying to make things happen.
    Last edited by noodle; 23-01-2017 at 04:00 PM. Reason: Added stuff
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  90. #8490
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    Speaking of cosmopolitan cities, every time I watch TV programs where the characters head off to the local diner for lunch or dinner, I go "I want some of those diners!". I'm thinking shows like Seinfeld or Bones or Grey's Anatomy. I love places where I can get a sandwich and coffee followed by pie.

    We have a few of those. I'm thinking Friends and Neighbors on Whyte or Diner99. But they're not downtown. Many of them are in the suburbs.

  91. #8491

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    I don't think it's the people who want a suburban/small-town lifestyle over an urban/core one that are the ones holding tight to a myth. 98% of all development in Edmonton from 2006-2011 was suburban in nature. Even the CoE's most optimistic projections have the vast, vast majority of development will happen at the edge of the city, with the rate of acceleration slowed, but not stopped.

    Many people over-estimate the importance of the highly visible downtown cores and underestimate the vast growth happening in the suburban edges of our metropolitan regions. The population in low-density Auto Suburbs and Exurbs is growing much faster than inner cities and inner suburbs. Despite their inner-city condo booms, even the Toronto and Vancouver metropolitan areas saw five times as much population growth in auto suburbs and exurbs compared to active cores and transit suburbs. Canada is a suburban nation and its population became more suburban from 2006-2011.
    http://www.canadianurbanism.ca/wp-co...las%20comp.pdf
    Yes, you are right about downtown development being more visible, as it is a common focal point for people across the city. I don't live in Windemere, so I don't see or have any idea what is being built there. Edmonton has not yet hit the boundaries for its development yet, so the suburbs continue to grow. However, there is a point where the convenience of living more centrally in a big city outweighs the loss of some amenities - the commute to downtown Toronto from some of the far flung suburbs can be brutal.

    If I had one criticism of Toronto's downtown recent development it would be it seems geared mostly towards the upper middle class and lower income people are relegated to the far flung suburbs where the tourists going downtown don't seem them. The city seems very prosperous or cosmopolitan to those visiting, but the downtown is a bit of a Potemkin village. In Edmonton that trend has not yet taken hold yet, in fact the opposite seems to exist here.

    If you were to look at average income figures, Edmontonians are wealthier than Vancouverites and Torontonians, but you wouldn't know it by comparing our downtowns - in fact you would think the opposite.

  92. #8492

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    If you were to look at average income figures, Edmontonians are wealthier than Vancouverites and Torontonians, but you wouldn't know it by comparing our downtowns - in fact you would think the opposite.
    Yeah, but that's a terrible comparison. I mean, Regina is right behind us on per-household-earnings & look at the state of their downtown. Pair that with Calgary as much above us as Regina is below us & you've certainly got some crazy slope on your household-income-to-downtown-development index.

    (2010 Census results used, since they were the first to come up. Point stands)

    E:
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    However, there is a point where the convenience of living more centrally in a big city outweighs the loss of some amenities - the commute to downtown Toronto from some of the far flung suburbs can be brutal.


    Yeah, but Downtown Toronto's significance as an employment node is almost an order of magnitude greater than Downtown Edmonton, due to our far more spaced out employment nodes. We're far less congested than Toronto is & thanks to the Henday, circling the perimeter of Edmonton is now easier than getting downtown for anyone who lives in an auto-centric suburb (aka the vast majority of Edmontonians), meaning we'll likely see there being more & more people able to live a lifestyle completely divorced from the core except for special occasions, like Matt on the board here.

    (Heck, I haven't been downtown other than passing through since I stopped working at EPCOR Tower in June)


    Last edited by noodle; 23-01-2017 at 04:53 PM. Reason: Posted too early, didn't wanna multipost to respond to one poster
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  93. #8493

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    If you were to look at average income figures, Edmontonians are wealthier than Vancouverites and Torontonians, but you wouldn't know it by comparing our downtowns - in fact you would think the opposite.
    Yeah, but that's a terrible comparison. I mean, Regina is right behind us on per-household-earnings & look at the state of their downtown. Pair that with Calgary as much above us as Regina is below us & you've certainly got some crazy slope on your household-income-to-downtown-development index.

    (2010 Census results used, since they were the first to come up. Point stands)

    E:
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    However, there is a point where the convenience of living more centrally in a big city outweighs the loss of some amenities - the commute to downtown Toronto from some of the far flung suburbs can be brutal.
    Yeah, but Downtown Toronto's significance as an employment node is almost an order of magnitude greater than Downtown Edmonton, due to our far more spaced out employment nodes. We're far less congested than Toronto is & thanks to the Henday, circling the perimeter of Edmonton is now easier than getting downtown for anyone who lives in an auto-centric suburb (aka the vast majority of Edmontonians), meaning we'll likely see there being more & more people able to live a lifestyle completely divorced from the core except for special occasions, like Matt on the board here.

    (Heck, I haven't been downtown other than passing through since I stopped working at EPCOR Tower in June)


    My point is that people visiting a city look at the downtowns and equate a nice downtown with a prosperous city, one that they would one to visit again, have a good impression of and one that they would consider living in. They equate a run down downtown with a city that is not doing well, one they would like to avoid visiting and probably would not consider living in. Is our downtown an asset or does it drag our city down?

    The Henday is great for getting around the city, so if you live in Millwoods you can more easily visit a friend who lives in the west end (or you don't have to move if your job shift the the other side of the city). It does not help people get from the edge of the city to the centre and as the city grows that trip becomes longer. Toronto has various freeways that go through the city too, but as cities get bigger traffic gets more congested. In 10 or 20 years the Henday will not be as pleasant an experience as now.

  94. #8494
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    But there's "nice downtown" which reflects a community that takes pride in their living space. And then there's "spectacular skyline" which usually means rich people live and work here.

    There are many cities that are commercial and/or tourist hubs that don't have particularly spectacular skylines. The best of them sweep their sidewalks and have shops that people visit constantly.

  95. #8495

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    But as Edmonton has grown, Downtown Edmonton has become relatively less & less important, with almost all recent growth (15 years) being borne on the back of public funding of some sort or another. Our downtown just sort of "is". It's relatively functional & hopefully with this last round of big-money investments, self-sustaining in terms of growth.

    The Henday makes it so getting to SEC (or even WEM), with its acres of free parking & dense retail full of stores people actually want to shop at, is as easy to get to as Downtown for many, many neighbourhoods. Why pay to shop Downtown when you can get a superior retail experience elsewhere gratis? And as that experience continues to grow & prosper it makes the meagre & middling retail we have downtown a negative to actually living centrally, since getting to the periphery of the city where most people live, shop & work & play day-to-day is a relative pain for people, aiding & abetting the hollowing out of the core.
    Last edited by noodle; 23-01-2017 at 05:34 PM.
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  96. #8496

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    But as Edmonton has grown, Downtown Edmonton has become relatively less & less important, with almost all recent growth (15 years) being borne on the back of public funding of some sort or another. Our downtown just sort of "is". It's relatively functional & hopefully with this last round of big-money investments, self-sustaining in terms of growth.

    The Henday makes it so getting to SEC (or even WEM), with its acres of free parking & dense retail full of stores people actually want to shop at, is as easy to get to as Downtown for many, many neighbourhoods. Why pay to shop Downtown when you can get a superior retail experience elsewhere gratis? And as that experience continues to grow & prosper it makes the meagre & middling retail we have downtown a negative to actually living centrally, since getting to the periphery of the city where most people live, shop & work & play day-to-day is a relative pain for people, aiding & abetting the hollowing out of the core.
    Of course it makes sense to have shopping where people live or work. Having more shopping downtown is for those people that work, live or want to live or work there. If you live near SEC, I doubt you are going to go downtown to shop on Sunday, although the traffic downtown is so much quieter downtown on Sunday than the gridlock there and sometimes it can be challenging to find a free parking spot at SEC. You would think with such "abundant" free parking it wouldn't be a problem, but again congestion in cities is everywhere, not just downtown. One nice thing about downtown on Sundays was the free parking, but the Rogers Place event schedule has kind of ruined it

    If some people living in the suburbs think it is like a small town, sorry I have lived in a small town and SEC or WEM is nothing like a small town.

  97. #8497

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    South Edmonton Common is exactly like small town shopping... there are some stores there that aren't in smaller towns but otherwise the experience is no different from the giant, sprawling pavement power centres that exist in Camrose, Leduc, St Albert, etc. I don't understand how anyone enjoys the experience of shopping in SEC. It's almost impossible to get to two stores on foot without driving in between because it's so inhospitable. Its designed in such a brain dead way that of course there's congestion. Walking between stores is borderline dangerous... SEC should have been designed so it's possible to park once and have a pleasant shopping experience. It's so frustrating to shop there when it's even moderately busy because you're just constantly getting back in and out of your car.

    I like shopping in WEM, but I would way rather shop downtown.

    I think it's silly to act like Edmonton is somehow radically different from somewhere like Calgary which just happened to get more investment in its downtown because of the Olympics and its lack of height restriction. It also didn't get ruined by something like WEM being built there. Look where else Triple 5 is trying to build a humongous mega mall... New Jersey. They don't have to kill their downtown, it's already dead lol. Calgary has much better retail downtown but it does have its own problem. It's way less interesting than Edmonton's after 5 PM.

  98. #8498

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seandroid View Post
    It also didn't get ruined by something like WEM being built there.
    West Edmonton Mall IS our downtown shopping destination.

    Anything that wretched place along Jasper Avenue etc. can do to detract from WEM would be an urban catastrophe for us, since a place the size of Edmonton can really only support one supreme shopping experience.

    EveB has nailed the demographic problem with central Edmonton. I'd like to add only one thing: the creepy "downtown" lobby is only making things worse. Much, much worse.

    No so-called neighborhood that fails to support a single grocery store can possibly be called decent, or have the hollow pretensions of its upstart boosters taken seriously.

  99. #8499

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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Seandroid View Post
    It also didn't get ruined by something like WEM being built there.
    West Edmonton Mall IS our downtown shopping destination.
    I haven't been to WEM in six or seven years, and I honestly don't know anyone else who lives downtown who goes there. Those of us who don't go to City Centre (or for things we can't get there) tend to go to Southgate because we can get there on the LRT.
    “It’s so beautiful. What sort of bird is that?”

  100. #8500

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    "Wretched place along Jasper Ave."

    🙄

    Do you feel similarly about, for instance, Calgary's downtown? And downtown doesn't need to be "THE PREMIUM SUPER AMAZING ONLY SHOPPING EXPERIENCE," it just should be functional for those of us that actually want to live in an urban environment. And Save on Foods is downtown by every metric except which neighbourhood it's technically located in. You can easily walk to it.

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