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Thread: Metro Line - North LRT | Churchill to NAIT | Under Construction

  1. #8501
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    If they walk away from Thales and the contract can they then hire someone else to fix it?

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    Perhaps, but if they do expect years of lawsuits from various parties

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    I'd be pleasantly surprised if the city had the balls to actually sue, and win. However, at the end of the day, I just want the fukkin thing to work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    If they walk away from Thales and the contract can they then hire someone else to fix it?
    Not that I'm an expert or anything but I have a close friend in commercial Law with an active practice here in the city. My lawyer friend suspects that as long as there is a on going Lawsuit, chances of the city or a 3rd party, can't do anything with Metro. I'm wondering that if both parties drag this out in litigation, would the city even be able to still continue day-to-day operations of Metro? I asked and he didn't have an answer.
    Could such a scenario play out with Metro?
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    Curious to know how much getting the two lines running on the same system would cost. If we do walk away from the contract, would the retained money cover such a venture?

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    Also, have these announcement errors the past few days screwed any one up? They're announcing nait trains currently as approaching southgate for every stop. The signage and vocal announcements are glitchy as hell too. I only made it to class yesterday on a gamble of which train was which headed from Corona Station.

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    ^ The CBTC system was approved by the then Transportation manager back in Feb/2010.

    In July 2010, LRT Design and Construction staff expressed concerns about potential risks, including delays, due to splitting the CBTC contract. And imo that is the crux of the problem we face today.


    https://www.edmonton.ca/projects_pla...t-history.aspx
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  9. #8509
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    There was no need to change that plaque. We are the City of Champions.

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    The worst part of all that is the post only pays $105K/year.
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  11. #8511

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    Worst part is that they have to know how to use Gmail.
    It is an actual requirement on the job posting.
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  12. #8512

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    The worst part of all that is the post only pays $105K/year.
    ya no doubt on that. They want an engineer for 105k max a year, who could likely work just about anywhere else for more, and on a project like our botched LRT signalling, the poop to pay ratio just doesn't seem adequate

  13. #8513
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    Likely this is the guy or gal that will figure it all out once Thales is fired and wobbled off the job. I think my autistic boy may know how to fix it. He's a genius at that kind of stuff. Lol. My suggestion is to match the old system of the capital line which has only had two events over all these years. Practically flawless. They will then work well and work well together. Newest technology isn't always the best technology. We have the proof of that. Keep things simple and running.

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    On the plus side, I saw more community spirit on the train the past couple days. Everybody talking amongst one another laughing at the gross incompetence of the city.

    And albeit I was rolling my eyes and snickering too this stuff is unacceptable. We pay a tonne of taxes in this city and that number keeps going higher for services that are supposed to be functional after billions are spent. If you wanna be a big city with big ambitions you have to be willing to build things right the first time and resist the urge of value engineering. Now this is the current admin's mess, is gonna cost the tax payers possibly hundreds of millions of dollars (between this and the intersection adjustments), and those people got canned for their monumental ignorance.

    I wouldn't be so upset if they hadn't rolled their eyes at me as a 1st year student voicing my objections about some of these things years ago. But they know better then the commoner!
    There was no need to change that plaque. We are the City of Champions.

  15. #8515

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    Likely this is the guy or gal that will figure it all out once Thales is fired and wobbled off the job. I think my autistic boy may know how to fix it. He's a genius at that kind of stuff. Lol. My suggestion is to match the old system of the capital line which has only had two events over all these years. Practically flawless. They will then work well and work well together. Newest technology isn't always the best technology. We have the proof of that. Keep things simple and running.
    I could be wrong, but I think part of the problem was the old signalling system worked well on a single line, but didn't mesh well with converging lines.

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    ^Except that signalling upgrades to the Capital Line were done while the Metro Line was still under construction to supposedly accommodate interlining and make the old and new signalling technologies compatible.

    According to the Journal story earlier this week, Thales latest excuse is that the technology they installed was designed for subways and skyways not for street level trains. Setting aside that the interlined portion is fully grade separated in the Downtown to University tunnel, why would they be allowed to install the wrong technology?

    There are many other street level systems that are extensively interlined. For example, Calgary where there two lines interline down 7th Avenue at 2 to 2.5 minute intervals. Or, Portland where three lines share the same set of tracks and signals east of their Downtown.

    Nor does this explain why the signalling problems affecting trains seem to be happening only on the Metro Line. For example, barriers not coming down in sync with approaching trains, or trains being sent down the wrong track.

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    There ya go Thales Get going on tearing out the signalling equipment and installing the appropriate one for street level transit systems. Problem solved. $$$
    There was no need to change that plaque. We are the City of Champions.

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    ^ Its a little more complicated then that I'm afraid.

    I don't think Thales is entirely at fault here. It goes back before 2010 but does anyone know who the other bidders for the singling contract were?
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    Quote Originally Posted by East McCauley
    Nor does this explain why the signalling problems affecting trains seem to be happening only on the Metro Line. For example, barriers not coming down in sync with approaching trains, or trains being sent down the wrong track.


    I'm not sure that remains the case. A friend of mine was stuck on one of the avenues (either 51 or 54) on 111 street last week, with a green traffic light but the LRT barriers down. He took a picture, so there's evidence!

  20. #8520

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by East McCauley
    Nor does this explain why the signalling problems affecting trains seem to be happening only on the Metro Line. For example, barriers not coming down in sync with approaching trains, or trains being sent down the wrong track.


    I'm not sure that remains the case. A friend of mine was stuck on one of the avenues (either 51 or 54) on 111 street last week, with a green traffic light but the LRT barriers down. He took a picture, so there's evidence!
    even rob ford could understand the concept of not running trains at grade... as you wait for those stupid barriers to raise think of your federal income dollars building the Eglinton line properly

  21. #8521

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevey_G View Post
    Also, have these announcement errors the past few days screwed any one up?
    The glitchy announcements has screwed me up, screwed my wife up and have screwed my kids up a few times in just the last year.The only thing worse than the LRT signalling is the frequent errors that the communication system makes (incorrect signage for destinations, incorrect station announcements, etc.). People rely on the LRT to get to work and to post-secondary classes. The fact that the city just lets it operate like this is an absolute disgrace.

  22. #8522
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevey_G View Post
    Also, have these announcement errors the past few days screwed any one up?
    The glitchy announcements has screwed me up, screwed my wife up and have screwed my kids up a few times in just the last year.The only thing worse than the LRT signalling is the frequent errors that the communication system makes (incorrect signage for destinations, incorrect station announcements, etc.). People rely on the LRT to get to work and to post-secondary classes. The fact that the city just lets it operate like this is an absolute disgrace.
    on the other hand, at least we're not reading local headlines like this:

    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...0-b2892f9f2a62

    from wsdot's site, "Control points, sidings and turnouts were upgraded with state-of-the-art wayside systems -- improving on-time train performance by eliminating most signal failure delays." a quick tour of their site ( http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Rail/Projects.htm ) doesn't identify contractors or suppliers.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  23. #8523

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    Right, let's compare a 80mph passenger train to a 30mph sloth of a LRT. I guess you could also say that at least the Metro LRT did not explode like the Hindenburg or sink like the Titanic...
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  24. #8524
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    Terrible.
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    12 minutes late this morning after one of the cars “wouldn’t run” this morning.

    I vote we rename it the Good Intentions Line.
    There was no need to change that plaque. We are the City of Champions.

  26. #8526
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    Ripping out Thales and replacing their system with a competitor's is not an option. A working CBTC that interacts with vehicle crossings does not exist on planet earth. This is why during the original bid stage, the other four vendors were disqualified as they truthfully said that as designed they could not meet all requirements. Thales thought they could figure it out and were awarded the contract. It boggles the mind that CoE didn't perform basic research to realize that what they were asking for did not yet exist.

  27. #8527

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    Are they going to run more than 3-car consists on this line?

    These 3-car trains sometimes are so packed at peak hours, people have to wait on the platform for the next train. Not pleasant when the temperature was pushing -30C last week.

  28. #8528
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Are they going to run more than 3-car consists on this line?

    These 3-car trains sometimes are so packed at peak hours, people have to wait on the platform for the next train. Not pleasant when the temperature was pushing -30C last week.
    Eventually. The NAIT station is band-aid engineering and design meant to be a temporary stop and it can only hold 3 cars. The rest can handle 5. And if we ever see this line functioning properly (I'm not sure we will), the trains will operate at twice the frequency we see right now.

    I wouldn't call what we have "operational".
    There was no need to change that plaque. We are the City of Champions.

  29. #8529
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abruzzi Spur View Post
    Ripping out Thales and replacing their system with a competitor's is not an option. A working CBTC that interacts with vehicle crossings does not exist on planet earth. This is why during the original bid stage, the other four vendors were disqualified as they truthfully said that as designed they could not meet all requirements. Thales thought they could figure it out and were awarded the contract. It boggles the mind that CoE didn't perform basic research to realize that what they were asking for did not yet exist.
    Thank you. At least some one else has a clue.

    This is what I've been saying all along and provided sources to my posts, which went for the most part ignored. And still people are fixated with car length and platforms, yeesh.
    Last edited by envaneo; 19-01-2018 at 12:46 PM.
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  30. #8530
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    Is there any way to duplicate parts of the system? For example, the railway crossings could be triggered by the advancing train.
    Last edited by The_Cat; 19-01-2018 at 01:00 PM.
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  31. #8531
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    I'm not an expert but I doubt that would make a difference as long as the CBTC system is in place.
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  32. #8532
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Cat View Post
    Is there any way to duplicate parts of the system? For example, the railway crossings could be triggered by the advancing train.
    Yup, pretty easy to do, the NE line does that right now, they have sensors spaced a certain distance from the level crossing.

  33. #8533
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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Abruzzi Spur View Post
    Ripping out Thales and replacing their system with a competitor's is not an option. A working CBTC that interacts with vehicle crossings does not exist on planet earth. This is why during the original bid stage, the other four vendors were disqualified as they truthfully said that as designed they could not meet all requirements. Thales thought they could figure it out and were awarded the contract. It boggles the mind that CoE didn't perform basic research to realize that what they were asking for did not yet exist.
    Thank you. At least some one else has a clue.

    This is what I've been saying all along and provided sources to my posts, which went for the most part ignored. And still people are fixated with car length and platforms, yeesh.
    Why should this be so difficult? The more the train control system knows about where the trains are and how fast they are going, the easier it should be to efficiently integrate the system with road crossings. That is just software. The problems stem from the train control system losing track of trains and going into some sort of safe mode, which is a major problem regardless of the presence of vehicle crossings.

  34. #8534
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    Not really, the more systems you integrate, the more failure points.
    Imagine a simple system where the weight of the train physically pushes down on the track and with gears moves the crossing arms down. There are very few things can go wrong and they are all physical (gears breaking, and that sort of thing).
    Next like the north east line system you have a induction sensors that electrically trigger the crossing arms to go down, now you have electrical problems plus the potential for electrical problems.
    Next you have a similar system to above, computer controlled but independent of all parts of the system, still the detectors, and the crossing, now you have computer programming errors, electrical faults and still physical problems.
    Next you have totally integrated system similar to the NAIT line, where you have trains talking to a computer system, talking to each other, interacting with the sensors and crossings, you have increased the level of complexity massively, hence the huge number of potential errors possible.

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    ^ A more integrated system also offers the possibility of increased redundancy to compensate for the increased likelihood of a single-point failure.

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    ^ How integrated should the system be before it becomes a continuous make work project? The introduction of the CBTC system eliminated the one size fits all concept. According to some ETS managers I spoke with recently they said the CBTC system is the root cause for where we are today. At least that's what "Chrome dome" Mike told me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    ^ How integrated should the system be before it becomes a continuous make work project? The introduction of the CBTC system eliminated the one size fits all concept. According to some ETS managers I spoke with recently they said the CBTC system is the root cause for where we are today. At least that's what "Chrome dome" Mike told me.
    It seems like it is already a continuous make work project.

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