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Thread: Wayy off topic: North Korea..

  1. #1

    Default Wayy off topic: North Korea..

    Yea, I'm not sure this really belongs here, but I do feel it is imporant that people see and know about this video. Warning! There are a lot of disturbing things shown and implied:

    North Korea - Children of the Secret State

    Overall it is depressing in a way to know that regimes such as this still exist in this world. Even more depressing when it seems there is nothing that can be done by anyone (any country even) besides waiting for the country to implode, and hopefully picking up the pieces once it is over.

    I always thought that the world in George Orwell's 1984 was fiction and hoped that it was a reminder to us to never allow places like that to exist. Now I know that we have failed and that North Korean's live in that world.

  2. #2
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    I think North Korea is one of the most fascinating places in the world, if only for it being such a bizzare and highly scripted and fascist place. It's a cold war relic no question, but thats what makes me want to visit. To see what the world might have been like under Soviet style government.

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    Some pictures everyone should see...

    http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...1&page=1&pp=20

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by canucklehead
    I think North Korea is one of the most fascinating places in the world, if only for it being such a bizzare and highly scripted and fascist place. It's a cold war relic no question, but thats what makes me want to visit. To see what the world might have been like under Soviet style government.
    That is really an interesting way to think about it. I guess as average people living outside of this hell, there is only so much we can do about it. Documenting and remembering things like this will make the day that the north korean government finally implodes all the sweeter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mock
    Some pictures everyone should see...

    http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...1&page=1&pp=20
    This was just an awesome thread, and I thank you for posting it. The pictures were good, but the commentary really "made" the whole experience for me. The government takes themselves very seriously, and yet everyone who goes there is basically laughing at them all the while. I wonder if "The Dear Leader" even realizes that this is happening.
    Time to grow up.

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    Maybe he'll ask Tweety Bird....
    Onward and upward

  6. #6

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    A very interesting article, a much smarter man than he's made out to be...


    Understanding Kim Jong Un, The World’s Most Enigmatic and Unpredictable Dictator

    excerpt:

    "Everyone knows that North Korea’s leader is a bloodthirsty madman and buffoon—or is he really? Mark Bowden digs into the hard facts for an unusual portrait.

    BY MARK BOWDEN

    "Does anyone make an easier target than Kim Jong Un? He’s Fatboy Kim the Third, the North Korean tyrant with a Fred Flintstone haircut—the grinning, chain-smoking owner of his own small nuclear arsenal, brutal warden to about 120,000 political prisoners, and … a big KICK ME sign. Kim is so easy to kick that the United Nations, which famously agrees on nothing, voted overwhelmingly in November to…"

    ...

    "The unveiling of Kim Jong Un began as far back as 2008, when party cadres throughout the country began praising him as “the young four-star general,” according to Brian Myers, a professor at Dongseo University, in South Korea, who has made North Korean propaganda a primary academic interest. Myers wrote a book called The Cleanest Race, debunking the conventional notion that the country’s guiding philosophy was Communism, and tracing the origins of its ruling mythology to a long-standing belief in Korean racial superiority. The Kim family story has been liberally retouched and grafted onto the old legends of Korea’s founding. Kim Il Sung, born into a line of Protestant ministers, is said instead to be descended from the nation’s mythical founder, Tangun. His son, Kim II, is generally believed to have been born in Russia, where his parents had gone to flee the Japanese occupation, but in the official story he was secretly born on Mount Paektu, a volcano on the border with China and the place where Tangun’s father descended from heaven 5,000 years ago. For Kim III, the mythic backgrounds of his father and grandfather are hard acts to follow, but Pyongyang’s propagandists have put their shoulders to the task. The younger Kim is said to..."

    http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2015/...-understanding

    Now THIS is interesting... a family abandoning christianity for atheism and essentially "throwing the baby out with the bathwater"...

    Kim Hyong-jik
    "...great-grandfather of the current leader of North Korea, Kim Jong-un."

    "Kim and his wife attended Christian churches. It was reported that his son, Kim Il-sung, attended church services during his teenage years before becoming an atheist later in life.[4]"
    Last edited by KC; 13-02-2015 at 11:15 AM.

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    A great read is "Without You There Is No Us" which was written by a Korean-American who was hired to teach English to the sons of the North Korean elite. The author took a great risk in keeping notes of her experiences and observations while in that country. I highly recommend the book.
    Fly Edmonton first. Support EIA

  8. #8

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    First time it circles the planet and goes dark, the US or China will likely high jack it and from that point on NK will only be receiving that data the big boys want it to receive. As it: Outer Limits.


    North Korea tells U.N. agencies it plans satellite launch
    SEOUL/WASHINGTON | BY JU-MIN PARK AND DAVID BRUNNSTROM
    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-no...-idUSKCN0VB1NY


    Outer Limits
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8CtjhWhw2I8

  9. #9

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    North Korea missile test: What's changed?
    By Andrea Berger and Joshua Pollack
    James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies, Monterey
    13 February 2017
    From the section Asia


    "The capability thus represents a major step forward for North Korea."


    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-38958321

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    I don't know how these things work and I'm just curious, but if North Korea shoots one at the continental U.S. the bloody thing comes over Canada for a part of its travels, doesn't it? The U.S. presumably is going to blow it out of the sky before it reaches their soil, so it doesn't sound too good for us, does it?
    Nisi Dominus Frustra

  11. #11

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    Justin's buns of steel will deflect it.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by howie View Post
    I don't know how these things work and I'm just curious, but if North Korea shoots one at the continental U.S. the bloody thing comes over Canada for a part of its travels, doesn't it? The U.S. presumably is going to blow it out of the sky before it reaches their soil, so it doesn't sound too good for us, does it?
    History repeats howie.

    late 50s/early 60s the US developed the Bomarc anti missile system, Canada was convinced to take it over other technology for the simple reason it was pointed out .... the US was going to install it along the Northern Border making Canada the Nuclear battleground. Canada took a number of the systems to move the Battleground over the Arctic keeping it away from most of the Canadian population.

    Fortunately the system was never needed during the Cold War. Now as we deal with rogues like North Korea and others we may be put in the same position again. IMO

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Hinderks View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by howie View Post
    I don't know how these things work and I'm just curious, but if North Korea shoots one at the continental U.S. the bloody thing comes over Canada for a part of its travels, doesn't it? The U.S. presumably is going to blow it out of the sky before it reaches their soil, so it doesn't sound too good for us, does it?
    History repeats howie.

    late 50s/early 60s the US developed the Bomarc anti missile system, Canada was convinced to take it over other technology for the simple reason it was pointed out .... the US was going to install it along the Northern Border making Canada the Nuclear battleground. Canada took a number of the systems to move the Battleground over the Arctic keeping it away from most of the Canadian population.

    Fortunately the system was never needed during the Cold War. Now as we deal with rogues like North Korea and others we may be put in the same position again. IMO
    Possible missile routes found here: http://allthingsnuclear.org/wp-conte...es-from-NK.jpg

    North Warning System stretches from tip of Alaska across the Canadian arctic to Labrador. Believe me the distances that the radar can detect a missile directed our way allow more than enough time for fighter jets to be scrambled out of Elmendorf AFB in Alaska to intercept that missile.

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    Fighter jets do not intercept ICBM's. Ground or sea based interceptors do, which are essentially slightly smaller ICBM's themselves. And there's a good chance that any missile launched by North Korea at the US would be intercepted in it's initial boost phase over Asia and the Pacific. My understanding is that missile defense systems typically intercept either during the boost phase at the very start, or during the terminal re-entry phase at the very end. Meaning interception likely wouldn't occur over Canada. But perhaps that's changed since my Tom Clancy reading days.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missil...ajectory_phase
    Last edited by Marcel Petrin; 14-02-2017 at 08:52 AM.

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    ^Sounds accurate. Intercepting mid flight would be extremely difficult as an ICBM will essentially be out of the atmosphere at that point. Definitely not going to be intercepted by fighters. You'd something almost as big as the ICBM itself to reach it.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

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    Thanks for the replies, guys. Very interesting. Let's hope none of this comes to pass.
    Nisi Dominus Frustra

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    Apparently the US is pursuing a mid-course intercept program, but it's not operational. At least, publicly it isn't, and it continues to encounter difficulties in testing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground...course_Defense

    Also, I might be wrong about the likelihood of a boost intercept. Looks like most systems the US is deploying intercept in the terminal phase, which is near the warhead's target.
    Last edited by Marcel Petrin; 14-02-2017 at 09:16 AM.

  18. #18

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    May be just propaganda, of course,...

    US 'Star Wars' lasers bring down ballistic missile
    • High-powered beams were mounted on plane
    • Defence test success 30 years after Reagan plan


    The US this week achieved a goal that has eluded it since Ronald Reagan's Star Wars programme by knocking out a ballistic missile using a high-powered laser beam mounted on a plane.

    The successful test was carried out yesterday in California, the US Missile Defence Agency (MDA) said, making real what had previously been confined to the realms of science fiction.

    The plane uses a combination of lasers to lock on to the missile and track its trajectory, and then bring it down with a *single shot fired from the nose turret, all in less than 12 seconds.

    According to analysts, the breakthrough could have an impact on the North Korean and Iranian missile programmes, forcing them to develop faster missiles and adopt....


    https://www.theguardian.com/science/...listic-missile

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    The article mentioned the biggest limitation of that system: a range of only a few hundred KM around the airplane. You'd need dozens of them flying 24/7 to provide an adequate shield for even the NE US, let alone the entire country.

  20. #20

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    The movie "Under the Sun" is pretty interesting, by a Russian movie maker who keeps the movie rolling, when he is not supposed to. The image of people pushing a trolley bus that isn't working, pretty much sums up socialism in a nutshell.

  21. #21

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    "If you don't take my word for it, read Shakespeare." - talk about rational - truly hilarious



    North Korea's leader Kim Jong-un rational?
    By Stephen Evans
    BBC News, Seoul
    18 March 2017
    From the section Asia

    Excerpt:

    Scholars who study him think he is behaving very rationally, even with the purging and terrorising of those around him. Prof Andrei Lankov of Kookmin University in Seoul told the BBC: "He is perfectly rational. He sometimes overdoes it. He sometimes tends to apply excessive force. Why kill hundreds of generals when dozens will do?


    "Most people he kills would never join a conspiracy but he feels it's better to overdo it. It's better to kill nine loyal generals and one potential conspirator than to allow a conspirator to stay alive.

    "But he is rational."

    Prof John Delury of Yonsei University in Seoul said that even having his half-brother killed (as the allegation is - denied by Pyongyang) would be a rational act; not nice but rational.
    "A sad fact of history is that young kings often kill their uncles and elder brothers. It may be cruel, but it is not 'irrational'. If you don't take my word for it, read Shakespeare."


    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-39269783
    Last edited by KC; 18-03-2017 at 07:27 AM.

  22. #22

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    Amazing how stories get recycled ...

    The story of the aircraft based anti missile laser is almost a word for word of one of my old Janes Defense reports from the 90s as is the mid flight missile programe it's.

    So maybe it was propaganda then or maybe it's propaganda now to give comfort to the masses. Who knows so much of this is spin and always has been.

    What I wonder is what they are not talking about ...

    There have been underwing edge of orbit fighter based anti based missile systems going back to the late 50s (Project Pilot and NOSTIK) and through the 70s/80s, then suddenly disappeared from print with no cancellation published ... somewhat unusual.

    Through the 80s there were also a series of anti missile systems in both testing and release ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...issile_defense , https://www.mda.mil/system/system.html and others. That all seem to have continued development but not been very public.

    Another is the Hawaii large scale rail gun programming that was put forward as a cheap way to put supplies for the space station into orbit, but back in the 70s there was rumor it was part of a anti missile rail gun plan. Then there is Texas A&M (iirc) rail gun that is supposed to be getting mounted on a cruiser ... anther that has been going on pretty quietly for years.

    Then there are the publicly touted systems like the Patriot and THAAD

    Of course there are also offensive site destruction plans to hit site pre fire and generally they are cruise missile, aircraft based and smaller missiles.

    If you keep up with the topic it is surprising how much is out there and how serious the problem has been taken since the launch of Sputnik.

    IMO ... there has been alot under development and non public simply to avoid another arms race.

    T
    Last edited by Thomas Hinderks; 18-03-2017 at 10:55 AM.

  23. #23

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    Stating the obvious, and not at all surprising:

    We think North Korea is crazy. What if we’re wrong? - The Washington Post

    "Perhaps the right way to look at North Korea is as a smart, rational, calculating government that is functioning shrewdly given its priority of regime survival. More pressure only strengthens its resolve to buy even more insurance. How to handle it under these circumstances?"

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.7c1e71b1d103


    The message behind the murder: North Korea’s assassination sheds light on chemical weapons arsenal - The Washington Post

    “The choice of weapons was not accidental,” said Sue Mi Terry, a former senior analyst on North Korea at the CIA and currently managing director for Korea at the Bower Group Asia. “Everything about this incident was intended to send a message.”


    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.d298325909e0



  24. #24

    Default The 2 Best Books the EPL has on North Korea

    ^Thanks for that. There's a lot people don't understand about North Korea, and I found the following two books fascinating, both available from the EPL (free!) for anyone interested in a little summer edification. If you get both books read them in this order; if you just want to read only one read the 2nd. You'll understand why NK is such a tough problem to solve and why everyone has failed to-date.

    One side-effect of NK's secret chemical-weapons knowledge is that whatever they have of a social "drug problem" is based on lab-made drugs like crystal meth rather than cultivated drugs (pot, heroin, cocaine).


    The Real North Korea
    Life and Politics in the Failed Stalinist Utopia
    Lanʹkov, A. N.
    Book - 2013
    https://epl.bibliocommons.com/item/s...al_north_korea

    North Korea Confidential
    Private Markets, Fashion Trends, Prison Camps, Dissenters and Defectors
    Tudor, Daniel, 1982-
    Book - 2015
    https://epl.bibliocommons.com/item/s...a_confidential
    Last edited by Spudly; 06-07-2017 at 08:13 PM. Reason: fix layout
    I feel in no way entitled to your opinion...

  25. #25

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    As Trump brings in a retired General...


    North Korea can hit most of United States: U.S. officials

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-no...-idUSKBN1AG2J4



    US detects 'highly unusual' North Korean submarine activity - CNNPolitics.com

    http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/31/politi...ity/index.html




    Rising tension between North Korea and the US is just what Trump needs to distract attention from conflict at home

    Politicians can find that their reputations are made – or dismantled – by sending troops into battle. Just look at Tony Blair and Margaret Thatcher

    Will Gore Monday 31 July 2017

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...-a7869311.html
    Last edited by KC; 31-07-2017 at 09:38 PM.

  26. #26
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    Judging by North Korea's comments on Kim Jong Il (Un?) being born on a mountain top with unicorns, I sort of doubt pretty much everything Pyongyang says.

  27. #27

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    The "unicorns" were a mistranslation of Korean descriptions of drawings found in the Kiringul cave.

    Though, Kim Il Sung, Un's grandfather, had a mythology of being born on Paektu Mountain.
    North and South Koreans consider the mountain, actually a dormant volcano, and its caldera lake to be their countries' spiritual home.
    I feel in no way entitled to your opinion...

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    He's BSC, that's the problem. Poor South Korea!

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    Thanks for the background Spudly, I appreciate it. But I still doubt a lot of the official news releases coming out of North Korea. Even NASA's rockets blow up now and again and USA has many decades of additional experience. I do not think North Korea will have an effective long range missile in the next 20 years, they are getting better at Photoshopping though.

  30. #30

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    ^Oh you should doubt them all, at least on the surface. Their missile tests are not just pretty pictures - they've been tracked.
    I feel in no way entitled to your opinion...

  31. #31

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    BREAKING: North Korea says it is seriously considering plan to strike Guam - DJ & Reuters citing state media

    https://twitter.com/CNBCnow/status/895042283028062210

  32. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    BREAKING: North Korea says it is seriously considering plan to strike Guam - DJ & Reuters citing state media

    https://twitter.com/CNBCnow/status/895042283028062210
    A wink and a nod to China.

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    Where is the CIA black ops?

    Send in Academi and kill em all, no questions!
    Stop illegal aliens! Enforce the LAW!

  34. #34

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    Fact Checker Analysis
    Trump’s claim that U.S. nuclear arsenal is ‘now far stronger and more powerful’
    “My first order as President was to renovate and modernize our nuclear arsenal. It is now far stronger and more powerful than ever before.”


    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.18fdf51fcc70

    Excerpts
    The Facts: In a word, no.
    So it was not his first order, but it was his first national security order.

    A Nuclear Posture Review (NPR) is something that a new administration does when it takes power. The last one was completed in 2010, under Barack Obama, so it would make sense for Trump to order a new one.
    Obama had already launched a nuclear weapons modernization effort that the Congressional Budget Office estimates will cost $400 billion between 2015 and 2024 — and $1 trillion over 30 years. Kimball said Trump’s initial budget proposal for nuclear weapons was essentially a “cut and paste” of what Obama had proposed.
    As for the arsenal being more powerful “than ever before,” Trump ignores the fact that the United States and Russia have significantly reduced the size of their arsenals since the height of the Cold War.
    As far as fake news, we all know who the source is, the Cheeto in Chief himself.
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  36. #36

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    Hilarious. Totally ignoring Guam.

    I'm still astounded at the singular focus on icbms as if that's all that's in their arsenal.
    Last edited by KC; 10-08-2017 at 07:04 AM.

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    if NK wants to hit Guam, it will take about less than 6 mins
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    Some have been tracked, most failed on launch or in flight though.

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    That's a pretty naff map, too, isn't it? The paths look well out of whack to me. I'd have thought the Chicago and New York trips would have been more over Canada.
    Nisi Dominus Frustra

  40. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by jagators63 View Post
    if NK wants to hit Guam, it will take about less than 6 mins

    If North Korea attacks Guam, the USA will turn NK into a parking lot in 6 minutes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by howie View Post
    That's a pretty naff map, too, isn't it? The paths look well out of whack to me. I'd have thought the Chicago and New York trips would have been more over Canada.
    Yes, I saw an article the other day that showed the shortest paths, and they were over Canada (and Alaska). The article also mentioned that should Iran fire a missile to hit LA (I think), it would go over Edmonton and Calgary. The article may have been in the Globe and Mail.
    They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?

  42. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jagators63 View Post
    if NK wants to hit Guam, it will take about less than 6 mins

    If North Korea attacks Guam, the USA will turn NK into a parking lot in 6 minutes.
    And that's how platitudes work, but not how the real world works.

    What about the note that NK delivers to the WH ten minutes before they attack?

  43. #43

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    Showing my age, but I remember before the first gulf war, there were all these predictions of doom, how Iraq had a massive army, how the republican guard were elite troops, etc. etc. Sure North Korea can do more damage with their artillery trained on Seoul, but I think that artillery could be taken out very quickly with the total air dominance South Korea and the US would quickly gain. I think the entire regime would collapse in no time, and better to do it now, than later when its only going to get worse with an ICBM arsenal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Showing my age, but I remember before the first gulf war, there were all these predictions of doom, how Iraq had a massive army, how the republican guard were elite troops, etc. etc. Sure North Korea can do more damage with their artillery trained on Seoul, but I think that artillery could be taken out very quickly with the total air dominance South Korea and the US would quickly gain. I think the entire regime would collapse in no time, and better to do it now, than later when its only going to get worse with an ICBM arsenal.
    There is no plausible scenario that doesn't have deaths in the hundreds of thousands. And it's not outlandish that it would be in the millions.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...-earth/528717/

  45. #45

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    ^That's what people said before the first Iraq war... you underestimate the technological advantages of the South Korean and US militaries. A pre-emptive strike on the artillery / key communications could quickly ensure dominance.

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    It's not me. It's every expert on the topic. Find me one credible report or source that says otherwise. And even if an invasion was over in a matter of weeks, like Iraq, imagine the humanitarian disaster that will follow as millions of people swamp the borders with China and South Korea. Please, do yourself a favor and go and read that Atlantic article I posted before you continue to make yourself look like a fool.

  47. #47

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    Shooting off the hip with all guns blazing with no intel is what moahunter and his ilk tend to do.



    When in doubt, NUKE them. Ask questions later... Never mind the radioactive fallout over Japan and millions of people killed on both sides, that's not Trump's problem.

    "Well back to my golf game..."

    "Now, as I was saying, that 8 strokes on the par 5, 11th hole, put me down for 3. Don'tcha know, I am always winning?"
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 11-08-2017 at 11:28 AM.
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  48. #48

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    ^so what would you do genius? Just let that regime continue on treating its citizens like slaves until it has nuclear capability it can launch? There isn't a choice, North Korea should have been dealt with a decade ago, probably two. Its all just delaying the inevitable now, the longer North Korea is appeased, the worse the situation gets. I think most of their troops will happily wave the white flag, rather than fight for Kim.

  49. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    North Korea should have been dealt with a decade ago, probably two. Its all just delaying the inevitable now, the longer North Korea is appeased, the worse the situation gets.
    Totally.

    The failures of Clinton, Bush, and Obama are the biggest reason why Donald Trump is now responsible for cleaning this up.

  50. #50

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    You really think that Trump can solve this? The problems are way older than Clinton or Bush. It was created by the compromise agreement between North Korea, China and the United Nations in 1953.

    Trump will do nothing other than make it worse, possibly leading to the deaths and dislocation of millions of people, further destabilizing the region and possibly starting WWIII.

    Trump claims only he can solve the problem of North Korea, only he case defeat ISIS, only he can solve problems in the Middle-East, only he can stop illegal immigration, only he can solve health care, only he can Make America Great Again.

    Well if you believe him, you are as nuts as he is...
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  51. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    You really think that Trump can solve this? ...
    This professor posting in the LA Times (a left wing newspaper), thinks so:

    Either a hot war or nuclear proliferation in its backyard would be much worse for China than any risks it might run by putting an end to Kim’s nuclear ambitions. Its best strategy now is to finally take serious action against Pyongyang, completely shutting off of all commerce, including oil shipments, until North Korea gives up its nuclear program. In return, China can demand that the United States, along with South Korea and Japan, enter a treaty promising not to seek regime change that could threaten the existence of the Kim dynasty.

    A petulant, erratic North Korea has successfully defied the West for decades. A bombastic response from an equally petulant and erratic President Trump is both scary and dangerous, but it might just succeed where prior, rational American administrations have failed.
    http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/showt...ic-North-Korea

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^so what would you do genius? Just let that regime continue on treating its citizens like slaves until it has nuclear capability it can launch? There isn't a choice, North Korea should have been dealt with a decade ago, probably two. Its all just delaying the inevitable now, the longer North Korea is appeased, the worse the situation gets. I think most of their troops will happily wave the white flag, rather than fight for Kim.
    Again, on what basis do you make the claim that DPRK soldiers are likely to mutiny and/or abandon their posts? As far as what can be done, the answer is not much. There are no good options, but there are certainly worse ones. The least bad one, as that article I posted says (that you will never bother yourself to read), is to accept that the DPRK is a nuclear power. Hopefully at some point the regime collapses or decides to take a different track. There's no magic solution to be had, as much as you might want there to be one.

  53. #53

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    ^lets see what happens Marcel, I read exactly the same crap about Iraq, how it would obliterate half the world, how there would be hundreds of thousands of casualties - and we all know what happened there. The US and South Korea would steam roll NK, those NK soldiers would even know what hit 'em / would be running for the hills, air power dominance is very different today than what it was back during the Korean war. Sure a few thousand may die in SK, maybe even 10's of thousands, but compared to the devastation of a future nuclear strike, its an acceptable risk. The odds of it being 100's of thousands of deaths, is IMO, very small.
    Last edited by moahunter; 11-08-2017 at 12:07 PM.

  54. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Sure a few thousand may die in SK, maybe even 10's of thousands, but compared to the devastation of a future nuclear strike, its an acceptable risk.
    I think South Korea would overlook casualties from war if in the process North Korea was liberated and Korea could be reunited. I mean, there are likely hundreds of thousands of North Koreans suffering of starvation and malnutrition as I type this. South Korea knows that

    I also think if North Korea is ever liberated, and we finally see all of the atrocities those people have been suffering for generations, we will all wish we had done something to free them much sooner.

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    **** that ping pong, nuke em till they glow and shoot them in the dark!

    Trump is making America great again!
    Stop illegal aliens! Enforce the LAW!

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter
    ^lets see what happens Marcel, I read exactly the same crap about Iraq, how it would obliterate half the world, how there would be hundreds of thousands of casualties - and we all know what happened there.


    Yes, we do know what happened there. Despite Iraq having a military that had mostly been blown up in the first Gulf War and never re-armed due to international sanctions, it still took several months to destroy it. Who, prior to the 2003 invasion, was saying that Iraq was in any way a serious challenge militarily for the US or coalition to overcome?

    And even in that case, there still were hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties through the course of that war:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War

    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter
    The US and South Korea would steam roll NK, those NK soldiers would even know what hit 'em / would be running for the hills, air power dominance is very different today than what it was back during the Korean war. Sure a few thousand may die in SK, maybe even 10's of thousands, but compared to the devastation of a future nuclear strike, its an acceptable risk. The odds of it being 100's of thousands of deaths, is IMO, very small.


    Please. Take the 10 damn minutes it will take, and read that Atlantic article. You. Don't. Know. What. You're. Talking. About.

  57. #57

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    China has made a clear and important statement, saying they will prevent strikes on North Korea (and trying to overthrow their leadership) by US and South Korea, but will remain neutral if North Korea attacks anyone first.

    https://www.rt.com/news/399310-china...strike-nkorea/

  58. #58

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    Today, Officials in Guam are advising residents to not look at the atomic flash and duck and cover to avoid the shock wave.

    Have a nice day.
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    Poke a giant grizzly bear with a stick you risk being eaten. Kim Jong un is doing exactly that. I'm hoping he makes a wrong move and his military is totally destroyed, the people of N. Korea freed from communism and repression they have suffered, the DMZ is removed and a new unified free Korea is formed where families are reunited and the 21st century and freedom finally reaches the citizens of the north.

  60. #60

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    Trump will have that done between golf rounds this weekend. Just after they get the pink unicorns off his 17th greens...
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  61. #61

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    Hmm. Gosh, I wonder what they were up to over the years and years (it's decades folks) of not having nuclear weaponry and knowing that they were inviting a pre-emptive attack by the US as they developed nukes and now ICBMs.




    Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tend to be the difficult ones. - United States Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, 2002
    bolding was mine


    Bottom line, if you figured that at some point a super power was likely to take you out, what would you do. Well, what did the US do? What did Russia do?

    I would certainly expect that in the flash that it would take to flatten North Korea, that they'd have set in motion some major survival plans, some retaliatory plans, as well as contingency plans.

  62. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    Poke a giant grizzly bear with a stick you risk being eaten. Kim Jong un is doing exactly that. I'm hoping he makes a wrong move and his military is totally destroyed, the people of N. Korea freed from communism and repression they have suffered, the DMZ is removed and a new unified free Korea is formed where families are reunited and the 21st century and freedom finally reaches the citizens of the north.
    Or, as could possibly have been done at some point or many points over the past decades, let the past be the past, make peace, create trade, get promises that no one attacks anyone (esp. NK does not attack SK) and, well now, add NK to the list of nuclear nations. Then closely watch the movement of their 70+ submarines, chemical and biological weapons - and the nukes of course.

    Or continue as is because the current approach has successfully led through an insane escalation of military capability that will only continue until someone pulls a trigger.

    Right now, I bet the hope is that someone internally takes out the key leadership and the military stays in place. That's probably been the hope for decades.
    Last edited by KC; 11-08-2017 at 04:33 PM.

  63. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    Poke a giant grizzly bear with a stick you risk being eaten. Kim Jong un is doing exactly that. I'm hoping he makes a wrong move and his military is totally destroyed, the people of N. Korea freed from communism and repression they have suffered, the DMZ is removed and a new unified free Korea is formed where families are reunited and the 21st century and freedom finally reaches the citizens of the north.
    Or, as could possibly have been done at some point or many points over the past decades, let the past be the past, make peace, create trade, get promises that no one attacks anyone (esp. NK does not attack SK) and, well now, add NK to the list of nuclear nations. Then closely watch the movement of their 70+ submarines, chemical and biological weapons - and the nukes of course.

    Or continue as is because the current approach has successfully led through an insane escalation of military capability that will only continue until someone pulls a trigger.

    Right now, I bet the hope is that someone internally takes out the key leadership and the military stays in place. That's probably been the hope for decades.
    This is nothing like Iraq, it's not even close. It's sort of an intractable puzzle where the pieces are strangely frozen together in an intractable relic of the cold war - China (and likely Russia too) will defend North Korea if the US attacks it first, so no "first strike" option. North Korea can also do a lot of damage to South Korea (and maybe Japan too) with conventional, chemical and maybe nuclear weapons, so again the US doesn't want to start anything. The dynasty Kim family is what gives the regime in North Korea legitimacy, so no military overthrow likely even if the guy is kind of or really crazy - that's why he had his brother killed. He was a big perceived threat, even though he wasn't in the country and didn't appear to want his brother's job. The regime is quite successful at limiting communication with the rest of the world so the people there don't know how bad they got it compared to the rest of the world - if they did, maybe then there would be an over throw. The situation would be more tolerable if North Korea just continued to have a large conventional army and conventional weapons, now they are veering into nuclear weapons and threats to use them which is unsettling everyone much more. Ultimately, I think the Chinese are going to have to have a "talk" with Kim and tell him to tone it down.

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    Bravo to the Chinese for stepping in and (hopefully) calming things down. Trump can't start anything without going to war with China, and Kim can't start anything because he knows China won't be there to back him up. Some clever thinking from China, which will hopefully end the threats from the id1ots to one another.
    They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?

  65. #65

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    At least there was one adult in the room...



    Making China Great Again...
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  66. #66

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    N. Korean missile threats worry some on Guam
    Those old enough are reminded of Cold War duck-and-cover drills as schools prepare.

    BRETT M. KELMAN, USA TODAY
    Updated 10:02 p.m. EDT Apr. 12, 2013

    In response to the growing threats, the U.S. military has moved additional missile-defense forces to the island. The military has said truck-mounted interceptor missiles are being sent to the island bases, and two warships, each with their own missile-defense systems, have moved to Pacific waters.

    Surrounded by this ring of invisible protection, the island remains wary but ready, Guam Gov. Eddie Calvo said. If an attack is launched, the island expects to get no more than 15 minutes' notice.

    Island police have been outfitted with vehicle-mounted megaphones in case the island moves to "code red," which means an attack is imminent, the governor said. Island schools have held shelter-in-place drills, which aren't so different from the duck-and-cover drills Baby Boomers like Calvo remember from the Cold War.
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...-guam/2077935/

    Scary stuff right?

    Read the date of the report.

    April 12th 2013

    That's right 2013

    Korea has been threatening Guam for years.

    What makes it so different this time?

    Think hard...


    Same wacko in North Korea right?

    Same threat...

    Think harder. ..


    Who is the wacko guy responding to the threat?

    Here is a hint.

    The same guy who wants a military option against Venezuela...

    Someone take the nuclear football away from him. Far away.
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  67. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by howie View Post
    That's a pretty naff map, too, isn't it? The paths look well out of whack to me. I'd have thought the Chicago and New York trips would have been more over Canada.
    Yeah, China and Russia wouldn't be too happy about them targeting New York or Chicago.

    Via the great circle mapper
    http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=fnj-ord

    http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=fnj-jfk

    Los Angeles

    http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=fnj-lax

    Honolulu

    http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=fnj-hnl

    Guam

    http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=fnj-gum


    And Edmonton

    http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=fnj-yeg

  68. #68

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    North Korea: China urges Trump not to worsen situation - BBC News

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-40909468

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    Looks like nk wants to desperately become a parking lot! NUKE THe ****.

    Sends a strong message to all these other loser countries!
    Last edited by Cardinal Fang; 12-08-2017 at 02:36 PM. Reason: Nuking nk
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  70. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gord Lacey View Post
    Bravo to the Chinese for stepping in and (hopefully) calming things down. Trump can't start anything without going to war with China, and Kim can't start anything because he knows China won't be there to back him up. Some clever thinking from China, which will hopefully end the threats from the id1ots to one another.
    Bravo to the Chinese? They have been propping up and exploiting NK for years, they don't want that to end, as they profit from it. You should watch the youtube video of the North Korean girl whose mom was raped in China while they tried to escape, and still post on here how great china is helping that regime to enslave millions of people. One day the NK regime will collapse, and the horrors / torture / mass burial grounds will all come to light, and we will need to look ourselves in the mirror and ask why we stood by and let it happen. At least finally there seems to be a President who realizes it needs to end, that needs to happen now, not when it will cost millions of lives.
    Last edited by moahunter; 12-08-2017 at 02:56 PM.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gord Lacey View Post
    Bravo to the Chinese for stepping in and (hopefully) calming things down. Trump can't start anything without going to war with China, and Kim can't start anything because he knows China won't be there to back him up. Some clever thinking from China, which will hopefully end the threats from the id1ots to one another.
    Bravo to the Chinese? They have been propping up and exploiting NK for years, they don't want that to end, as they profit from it. You should watch the youtube video of the North Korean girl whose mom was raped in China while they tried to escape, and still post on here how great china is helping that regime to enslave millions of people. One day the NK regime will collapse, and the horrors / torture / mass burial grounds will all come to light, and we will need to look ourselves in the mirror and ask why we stood by and let it happen. At least finally there seems to be a President who realizes it needs to end, that needs to happen now, not when it will cost millions of lives.
    I don't think some people see the big picture..smh.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gord Lacey View Post
    Bravo to the Chinese for stepping in and (hopefully) calming things down. Trump can't start anything without going to war with China, and Kim can't start anything because he knows China won't be there to back him up. Some clever thinking from China, which will hopefully end the threats from the id1ots to one another.
    Bravo to the Chinese? They have been propping up and exploiting NK for years, they don't want that to end, as they profit from it. You should watch the youtube video of the North Korean girl whose mom was raped in China while they tried to escape, and still post on here how great china is helping that regime to enslave millions of people. One day the NK regime will collapse, and the horrors / torture / mass burial grounds will all come to light, and we will need to look ourselves in the mirror and ask why we stood by and let it happen. At least finally there seems to be a President who realizes it needs to end, that needs to happen now, not when it will cost millions of lives.
    So you're advocating for a nuclear war. Got it.
    They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?

  73. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gord Lacey View Post
    So you're advocating for a nuclear war. Got it.
    No, advocating stopping one in the future by dealing with the issue now, instead of just sending money and food to prop up the regime (what past Presidents have done).

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    And how do you think Trump should deal with the issue right now? If he's the aggressor, he's taking on both North Korea AND China.
    They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?

  75. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gord Lacey View Post
    So you're advocating for a nuclear war. Got it.
    No, advocating stopping one in the future by dealing with the issue now, instead of just sending money and food to prop up the regime (what past Presidents have done).
    Absolutely. North Korea has been advancing their nuclear weaponry and escalating threats to neighboring countries for decades now. They needed to be stopped at least 10 years ago. Maybe longer.

    Not a single critic of Trump seems to have any better ideas on how to approach this.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gord Lacey View Post
    So you're advocating for a nuclear war. Got it.
    No, advocating stopping one in the future by dealing with the issue now, instead of just sending money and food to prop up the regime (what past Presidents have done).
    Absolutely. North Korea has been advancing their nuclear weaponry and escalating threats to neighboring countries for decades now. They needed to be stopped at least 10 years ago. Maybe longer.

    Not a single critic of Trump seems to have any better ideas on how to approach this.
    Its easier to bash Trump. The language he uses, is the only thing Kim Jong-un understands. He's been tempting fate for years!...

  77. #77

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    North Korea dropped their plans to attack Guam. Which is an interesting outcome, given how everybody was in hysteria telling us that the President's words would escalate the situation.

  78. #78

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    ^ You make it sound as though they had actual plans to attack Guam in the first place.
    There can only be one.

  79. #79

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    They do this every year when the US and South Korea plans their war games. Only under the Trump administration does it become a panic because Trump does not provide an even temperament, to calm the situation and use diplomatic means. Instead he inflames the situation with sabre rattling and stupid tweets to show he is tough. The outcome is always the same, NK bluffs but only "the World's Best Negotiator" falls for the bluff, hook, line and sinker.

    Did NK eliminates any of it's weapon systems. NOPE.

    This issue will be back in about 11 months. Lather, rinse, repeat.

    It just proves he is a huge orange windbag.

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    Kim Jong Un appears to back down after Mattis, Trump warnings
    Published August 15, 2017 Fox News

    Kim Jong Un appeared to blink first, with North Korean media reporting Tuesday the dictator had delayed a decision about whether to fire missiles toward Guam – a pronouncement that came hours after a particularly stark warning from Defense Secretary James Mattis promised further escalation would mean “game on.”

    Kim Jong Un’s remarks came as he made his first public appearance in nearly two weeks, inspecting his army and examining missile plans, the official state media arm, KCNA, reported, according to Reuters. But the leader also tempered his recent fiery rhetoric, appearing to step back from the brink in an intensifying war of words between United States and North Korean leaders.

    “He said that if the Yankees persist in their extremely dangerous reckless actions on the Korean peninsula and in its vicinity, testing the self-restraint of the DPRK, the latter will make an important decision as it already declared,” KCNA reported.

    Kim Jong Un's statement followed President Trump's promise of “fire and fury” if North Korea continued to threaten the U.S. and, on Monday, Mattis saying any sign North Korea was attempting to fire a missile at the U.S. territory of Guam would amount to “game on.”

    “It could escalate into war very quickly,” Mattis said. “…Yes, that’s called war, if they shoot at us.”

    The Tuesday statement is a long way from previous declarations, in which Kim Jong Un went so far as to circle a date for his plan to fire a missile at Guam.
    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/08...-warnings.html

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    Everyone has pussyfooted around NK, call their bluff, and he backs off. He knows damn well that Trump would be ready to go, and while Kim doesn't care for his people, Kim certainly cares for his life!

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    But but but I thought Trump was making things worse??
    Why would Kim back down when somebody stood up to him, it doesn't make sense.

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