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Thread: Snow and the city Streets

  1. #2401
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    why wait till its over... once you get your wish to start when the snow starts flying, you'll ask, why does it cost so much. It costs so much because as you've stated, Edmonton gets very little snow, so waiting till it stops is ideal so you don't have to go over the same areas multiple times. In a major snow event, you'll see plows out early. The city also now is putting down a brine solution like they do in many other municipalities.

    Also, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out why your personal driveway and sidewalk doesn't scale well to a friggen city of close to a million people that sprawls from over 2500 sqkm +
    Why NOT be pro active? Sure lets let it pile up overnight when there is LITTLE traffic,and then begin plowing during the morning rush making it so much better to deal with. BRILLIANT!!!!!!! You subscribe to the I'm an Edmontonian and settle for the barley acceptable club...Don't you....Damn good thing YOU are not in charge of the roads. They're bad enough.....
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  2. #2402

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    Many of the delays are likely due to ETS buses having issues getting up hills, which I witnessed on the roads crossing the river into downtown. Perhaps ETS should invest in some winter tires.
    I have written extensively on this subject because bus tires, front and back are like the tires found on the front steering tires on tricks. Slick except four or five rain grooves and absolutely no cross treads. Useless hard rubber discs.

    After four or fives buses stop at a bus stop, they have polished the ice so well that the next bus cannot pull away from the curb and even climb the crown of the road.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cnr67 View Post
    (...)! You subscribe to the I'm an Edmontonian and settle for the barley acceptable club...(...).
    Well...truth be told, I subscribe to the barley acceptable club...only when it comes with hops, and looks like an Innus and Gunn...or Erdinger Dunkel...or a nice Heffe...

    Maybe the barley acceptable club is how we get urban planning? After a few, all ideas are good!

    Sarcasm aside...

    To the point you were making...I know there is a cost to this. However, we do get one or two major dumps per year. One idea would be to rejig the amortization rules and allow a small fleet of older equipment to remain on standby for major storms. You can constantly renew the main fleet that sees action during the minor storms, but have some backup equipment and operators (there are a few you can get in the winter when construction is down).

    Yes, it costs. But properly managed, it is a good investment. We shouldn't be managing our snow removal like people in areas where the snow often does melt several times a year. However, that seems to be a trend in Edmonton...design like we're Portland, yet live like Winterpeg.
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    Excellent discussion here. Ottawa and Winnipeg spending the same, more equipment, better service than Edmonton.

    Edmonton had 72 hours warning this was coming and to be ready. Nothing.

    Edmonton seems to take delight in allowing the motorists to pack the snow down so that it forms ice at intersections. No proactive salting/sanding mid storm to prevent this?

    Edmonton will wait until after the event to take action. After the snow even the temprature drops. Now that the cars have caused ice to form at the intersections, it is that much harder to remove because salt is ineffective at the lower temperature. So Edmonton roads have big blocks of ice stuck to them, while the provincial highway ice clear.

    Edmonton does not run ploughs. They run bladders. You will see this salt/sand truck going along, spreading grit on snow 6 inches or higher but that dinky little scrapper between the front and the rear axles is not down pushing the snow to the side completely negating the effectiveness of the grit dropped.

    Edmonton brings in graders to push all the snow into the middle of the road in the evening and at night, making traffic lanes magically end without warning. They then run industrial snowblowers to load dump trucks and haul it all away. Is there not some amount of snow storage between the curb and side walks?

    There is a conspiracy I tell you, to force all motorists to purchase four-wheel and all-wheel drive vehicles in this city in order to get around in winter. In this manner, these vehicles burn more fuel, thus paying more taxes to line the coffers of the provinceial government and the grants to the city

    Case in point, my local bike lane was down to black top last night after midnight but my street was still full of snow.

    LOL!

    What ever the province is doing to get its roads clear, the city needs to do. Edmonton is an embarrasement to visitors coming in on nice black hard top provincial highways then hits the city and the streets are clogged with snow and ice.
    Last edited by David Jackson; 27-01-2018 at 11:41 PM.

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    You cant apply the same method for clearing a provincial highway to city streets. Much different technique when you have places to throw the snow it to the ditch at high speeds.

  6. #2406

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    I think city crews have handled the snow removal well. Sure, friday sucked but thats go be expected, by saturday morning most of the major roadways have been cleared.. Some of you had suggested to get plows out during the snow event. They were. They were keeping the river valley inclines and declines clear. Other roads can wait until the event is over. Why do the same roadway multiple times? If we did this, you would all complain about costs.

    The only people I saw having trouble on friday were those on all season tires

    all season tires DO NOT work well below +7 and certainly not in ice / snow. Get winter rated tires and save you angst for real issues.

  7. #2407

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    They should be plowing and sanding the river valley routes the moment the snow begins falling.
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  9. #2409

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cnr67 View Post
    (...)! You subscribe to the I'm an Edmontonian and settle for the barley acceptable club...(...).
    Well...truth be told, I subscribe to the barley acceptable club...only when it comes with hops, and looks like an Innus and Gunn...or Erdinger Dunkel...or a nice Heffe...
    It's Innis. If you're going to make fun of someone's spelling (ok by me) you'd better make sure your post has correct spelling. 🍻😁

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    Quote Originally Posted by MoneyGuy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cnr67 View Post
    (...)! You subscribe to the I'm an Edmontonian and settle for the barley acceptable club...(...).
    Well...truth be told, I subscribe to the barley acceptable club...only when it comes with hops, and looks like an Innus and Gunn...or Erdinger Dunkel...or a nice Heffe...
    It's Innis. If you're going to make fun of someone's spelling (ok by me) you'd better make sure your post has correct spelling. 
    Fair enough...but the joke was more the application of barley infused drinks to the situation...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    You cant apply the same method for clearing a provincial highway to city streets. Much different technique when you have places to throw the snow it to the ditch at high speeds.
    Why not? Again, we are a winter city. Smaller towns have areas to put snow...because they know...they get snow. Other cities design their routes, roads, neighborhoods, and downtowns to deal with the inevitable snowfall...and yes...snowfall in any amount in Edmonton is inevitable. One stat oft quoted is that in Edmonton, it has snowed in every month except July. We walk around trying to celebrate winter city...yet we design with Portland in mind... Why can't we have snow ditches? Why can't we have underground snow dumps in the core - using geothermal insulation to turn it into water for treatment and reuse (le gasp...just like some farms I know).

    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    They do
    Yes, but they are understaffed or undersubscribed to meet the demand...I agree that a sentiment that they are not "out there" immediately is false. However, it is in how they deploy, what they deploy, and when they deploy what part of the arsenal that is questioned here. Agreed, it is a thankless job most of the time, but when there are examples of how to do it better within winter cities (that aren't Portland)...that is a source of the frustration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    I think city crews have handled the snow removal well. Sure, friday sucked but thats go be expected, by saturday morning most of the major roadways have been cleared.. Some of you had suggested to get plows out during the snow event. They were. They were keeping the river valley inclines and declines clear. Other roads can wait until the event is over. Why do the same roadway multiple times? If we did this, you would all complain about costs.

    The only people I saw having trouble on friday were those on all season tires

    all season tires DO NOT work well below +7 and certainly not in ice / snow. Get winter rated tires and save you angst for real issues.
    No, we wouldn't complain about the costs if the multiple passes on arterials kept arterials open. I don't think (and I am open to be proven wrong) that people here are clamouring for to the pavement blading of all residential streets the moment a flake falls. ...but arterials...the roads that keep the economy going...the roads that due to the sheer volume of low speed traffic immediately become compacted skating rinks that even the best winter tires can't cope with...that's the issue.

    You did cite all seasons/3 seasons. I agree. I have Nokians on one vehicle and Blizzaks on the other...the bests winters I could buy for the truck and the car. ...and yet...I slid through 2 4 way stops in the 199 st/23 ave area...I was only going 20 km/h...I have antilock brakes...and in the second one, a young lady in her Dodge Ram came skidding through in the opposite direction and almost t-boned me. Another young lady...winter tire equipped...slid through the western 4 way stop and hit the ditch...going about 20 km/h. The gentleman in the car behind her...slid through the same intersection narrowly missing her in the ditch. Everyone was going slow.

    Why did this happen? Because in this busy and forgotten about commuter intersection just off the Henday, the compaction was so great you couldn't even get out of your car to stand...it was that slippery. As I travelled into the city, I hit two more intersections and spots on Terwillegar that were exactly the same thing. I turned around, and went back home. I took some of the remaining back roads, and even though they were snow covered and had icy spots below, the winter tires worked much better. No compaction...

    So, the angst is real. Winter tires are a defense, but I invite you to come out to my ranch and take your winter shoe car onto my lake. There's 30" of ice, I use a tractor to clear it for skating, so your car should be just fine (aka not go for a cold swim). I'll let you drive on it, and see just how well you do stopping with your winters. I'll even set up some pylons/straw bales and see how well you do. Don't worry, the track is a quarter mile long...but you'll get my point. Winter tires are no match for a -15 degree ice rink.

    ...and that's why the need for proactive, continued, and repeated blading and sanding at major compacted arterial and commuter intersections is the source of most of this ire IMO. People will pay for it. They pay for it in Edmonton's higher insurance rates anyway...
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  12. #2412

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    agreed.

    We need the 'like post' app reinstated.
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    Quote Originally Posted by david jackson View Post
    excellent discussion here. Ottawa and winnipeg spending the same, more equipment, better service than edmonton.

    Edmonton had 72 hours warning this was coming and to be ready. Nothing.

    Edmonton seems to take delight in allowing the motorists to pack the snow down so that it forms ice at intersections. No proactive salting/sanding mid storm to prevent this?

    Edmonton will wait until after the event to take action. After the snow even the temprature drops. Now that the cars have caused ice to form at the intersections, it is that much harder to remove because salt is ineffective at the lower temperature. So edmonton roads have big blocks of ice stuck to them, while the provincial highway ice clear.

    Edmonton does not run ploughs. They run bladders. You will see this salt/sand truck going along, spreading grit on snow 6 inches or higher but that dinky little scrapper between the front and the rear axles is not down pushing the snow to the side completely negating the effectiveness of the grit dropped.

    Edmonton brings in graders to push all the snow into the middle of the road in the evening and at night, making traffic lanes magically end without warning. They then run industrial snowblowers to load dump trucks and haul it all away. Is there not some amount of snow storage between the curb and side walks?

    There is a conspiracy i tell you, to force all motorists to purchase four-wheel and all-wheel drive vehicles in this city in order to get around in winter. In this manner, these vehicles burn more fuel, thus paying more taxes to line the coffers of the provinceial government and the grants to the city

    case in point, my local bike lane was down to black top last night after midnight but my street was still full of snow.

    Lol!

    What ever the province is doing to get its roads clear, the city needs to do. edmonton is an embarrassment to visitors coming in on nice black hard top provincial highways then hits the city and the streets are clogged with snow and ice.
    exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    I think city crews have handled the snow removal well. Sure, friday sucked but thats go be expected, by saturday morning most of the major roadways have been cleared.. Some of you had suggested to get plows out during the snow event. They were. They were keeping the river valley inclines and declines clear. Other roads can wait until the event is over. Why do the same roadway multiple times? If we did this, you would all complain about costs.

    The only people I saw having trouble on Friday were those on all season tires

    all season tires DO NOT work well below +7 and certainly not in ice / snow. Get winter rated tires and save you angst for real issues.
    And you were out looking at everyone's tires were you? LOLOLOL Drive to conditions regardless of what tires you have. THAT is a BIG problem in this city. A great example...Friday night while on the NB to WB flyover ramp from the Henday to yellow head. Car spins out hits rear first,spins and crushes his front with airbags deployed. BRAND NEW CAR. HMMMMM winter tires certainly help don't they. SLOW THE HELL DOWN!!!! Too many fools putting faith in their vehicles and NOT in the knowledge and ability to operate them safely!
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  15. #2415

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    It is easy for Medwards to read the brand and type on spinning tires of other cars as his eyes spin in their sockets LOL

    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 28-01-2018 at 03:12 PM.
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  16. #2416

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    Every year there's a highway patrol person somewhere chuckling about how people use their car's 4WD/AWD to get themselves so much further off the road into the ditch.
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

  17. #2417

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    Then those drivers have to be reminded that 6,000 drivers safely drove down the same stretch of road without hitting the ditch.
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    I drove around in my rear wheel drive car on all seasons every day last week. The only place i had an issue was in a parking lot...aka not city property.
    What's the problem?

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    Congrats Dan!

    You're better than 90% of the people out there. You're a magical unicorn of perfect driving.



    Sarcasm aside, I could say the same. I drove on all seasons in a RWD truck with no sandbags in the back of it for years. Nary a problem. I adjusted for speed and conditions. but...one cold night coming home from YEG, I took the onramp from Airport Road to QEII. I took the turn slowly as there was some snow, but the pavement was bare. ~-10C. Suddenly, without warning, the back end swung out and I was sideways...looking at a light standard coming right at my drivers door. Somehow, I caught a frost lump or dirt mound, and it threw my back end back straight...and I slid past the light standard barely clipping my drivers mirror. I got out...no black ice to be found. However, the Wrangler A/T's were hockey pucks.

    It's only a matter of time Dan...

    Converted to winters the next day.

    That said...so what if you didn't have a foreseeable or noticed problem...are you sure that a momentary lack of traction on your part...which you thought was "no problem...just icy"...didn't result in that car behind you or to the right/left of you having to make a sudden adjustment because you were gunning it across an intersection...with no problem? I see that accident more often than not...a driver with a huge head of arrogance or confidence making a move that he thinks is "no problem", yet another has to take evasive action...and the problem snowballs.

    Your statement also omits that it could be a factor of route, time of day, traffic levels, etc. To say you had no problem would be to say you drove exactly like any other day with summer sun and clear conditions...which would be reckless and warrant another conversation.

    The fact that accidents spiked exponentially, that skilled drivers with proper equipment had issues, and that EPS had to issue several reminders...that says not only there are driver problems (overconfidence, lack of skill, oblivious attitudes, etc.), not only that there were issues with the snowfall, but people are pointing out that a lack of a disciplined snow removal process exacerbates the problem which makes the aforementioned skill/hubris problem exponentially worse.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Congrats Dan!

    You're better than 90% of the people out there. You're a magical unicorn of perfect driving.



    Sarcasm aside, I could say the same. I drove on all seasons in a RWD truck with no sandbags in the back of it for years. Nary a problem. I adjusted for speed and conditions. but...one cold night coming home from YEG, I took the onramp from Airport Road to QEII. I took the turn slowly as there was some snow, but the pavement was bare. ~-10C. Suddenly, without warning, the back end swung out and I was sideways...looking at a light standard coming right at my drivers door. Somehow, I caught a frost lump or dirt mound, and it threw my back end back straight...and I slid past the light standard barely clipping my drivers mirror. I got out...no black ice to be found. However, the Wrangler A/T's were hockey pucks.

    It's only a matter of time Dan...

    Converted to winters the next day.

    That said...so what if you didn't have a foreseeable or noticed problem...are you sure that a momentary lack of traction on your part...which you thought was "no problem...just icy"...didn't result in that car behind you or to the right/left of you having to make a sudden adjustment because you were gunning it across an intersection...with no problem? I see that accident more often than not...a driver with a huge head of arrogance or confidence making a move that he thinks is "no problem", yet another has to take evasive action...and the problem snowballs.

    Your statement also omits that it could be a factor of route, time of day, traffic levels, etc. To say you had no problem would be to say you drove exactly like any other day with summer sun and clear conditions...which would be reckless and warrant another conversation.

    The fact that accidents spiked exponentially, that skilled drivers with proper equipment had issues, and that EPS had to issue several reminders...that says not only there are driver problems (overconfidence, lack of skill, oblivious attitudes, etc.), not only that there were issues with the snowfall, but people are pointing out that a lack of a disciplined snow removal process exacerbates the problem which makes the aforementioned skill/hubris problem exponentially worse.
    Yea, so long story short, i drove for the conditions and didn't jump out of my house expecting every road to be plowed to the bare pavement.
    Most of the posts here make it seem like there is a magical unicorn fairy land where it snows a foot, is still snowing and you walk out to summer conditions.
    My hyperbole, over simplification whatever you want to spend four or five paragraphs framing i as it's the other side of that.
    Snow removal is fine in this city. It's not perfect and it's not magical, but the city functions pretty well all winter long overall. The COE is trying and piloting new things, kudos to them for moving into a cycle of improvement this year, i hope they continue to experiment and refine.

  21. #2421

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    Just arrived back in town from Southern Alberta. The trouble begins on Gateway Boulevard just north of the Henday (I think that's where CoE takes over from the provincial contractors responsible for the highways). Speed limit there is still 90 kmh so no problem with slow moving vehicles compacting the snow. Yet somehow the driving surface changes suddenly from being mostly bare with snow patches to being covered with glare ice and compacted snow between lanes. No fewer than seven different vehicles involved in at least three different incidents between AHD and 23rd. Many people caught unaware, not realizing the conditions would change so suddenly. Not a nice welcome to Edmonton.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanC View Post
    (...)
    Snow removal is fine in this city. It's not perfect and it's not magical, but the city functions pretty well all winter long overall. The COE is trying and piloting new things, kudos to them for moving into a cycle of improvement this year, i hope they continue to experiment and refine.
    Pretty well...versus others here citing better examples that other cities employ...ones that I too have seen firsthand. They don't need to experiment and refine. They need to learn from others and refine. If that costs X, then put that cost out to the public to review and comment. Then...if cheaping out is the public answer...they got what they wanted. Chances are, the public won't cheap out. Just my opinion...
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  23. #2423

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    During a snow event people won't "cheap out" but many months later when it's all forgotten and the next year's budget is floated and folks see the increased cost of "not cheaping out" they'll be chirping!

    And similar when the province mulls mandating snow tires...

    Either way, we get chirpers.
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DanC View Post
    (...)
    Snow removal is fine in this city. It's not perfect and it's not magical, but the city functions pretty well all winter long overall. The COE is trying and piloting new things, kudos to them for moving into a cycle of improvement this year, i hope they continue to experiment and refine.
    Pretty well...versus others here citing better examples that other cities employ...ones that I too have seen firsthand. They don't need to experiment and refine. They need to learn from others and refine. If that costs X, then put that cost out to the public to review and comment. Then...if cheaping out is the public answer...they got what they wanted. Chances are, the public won't cheap out. Just my opinion...
    The calcium chloride pilot is an example of the change in mentality and looking external...just adopting what some other city does isn't good practice, especially with a high capital/ equipment resource intensive operation like snow removal. What if you assume it works, and it doesn't? That's a multi million dollar issue, anther black eye boondoggle.
    Snow removal has never been a disaster here, it's just something that the COE sat back and 'had a solution' for and didn't engage is a process of continued improvement, now, it appears that they have broken that and are looking at options and different ways of doing things.
    I've never missed a day of school, work, etc. In my life, that i can remember, because of snow in Edmonton...if that isn't a testament to a least a functional level of snow removal service, i don't know what is...considering you watch major cities screech to a halt with a dusting if the white stuff. Here, it snows a foot overnight, we wake up, hop in our car at -40 in the morning and just keep rolling. Something must be at least partially right (also we are tough).
    Oh and when we can start running speed plows in the city, with their 20ft+ spray of thousands of pounds of snow shooting off the side, we can compare to highways clearing.
    Last edited by DanC; 28-01-2018 at 04:58 PM.

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    Let them chirp. That is the point.

    Get out there an find out if the majority (and I mean a real majority, not a very vocal minority of loud chirpers)...wants to pay for better snow removal. Be transparent on it...

    Then, at least, the City Administration has a better leg to stand on when, as you suggest, those that chirped about price now chirp about lack of delivery...you have a leg to stand on to say bugger off!
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanC View Post
    The calcium chloride pilot is an example of the change in mentality and looking external...just adopting what some other city does isn't good practice, especially with a high capital/ equipment resource intensive operation like snow removal. What if you assume it works, and it doesn't? That's a multi million dollar issue, anther black eye boondoggle.
    Snow removal has never been a disaster here, it's just something that the COE sat back and 'had a solution' for and didn't engage is a process of continued improvement, now, it appears that they have broken that and are looking at options and different ways of doing things.
    I've never missed a day of school, work, etc. In my life, that i can remember, because of snow in Edmonton...if that isn't a testament to a least a functional level of snow removal service, i don't know what is...considering you watch major cities screech to a halt with a dusting if the white stuff. Here, it snows a foot overnight, we wake up, hope in our car at -40 in the morning and just keep rolling. Something must be at least partially right (also we are tough).
    I too have lived in cities that were absolutely destroyed at a slight snowfall, but then they were called Atlanta, Houston, Austin, Seattle... Then you have the NYC, Chicago, Rochester, Minneapolis's of the world where when it snows, it SNOWS.

    nowhere did I say just blindly adopt what another city does. Please let me know where that was stated. I think I said learn and refine, which would logically mean review and assess applicability. If that means headcount (which seems to be the root cause, but I am open to be proven otherwise)...then present what that headcount looks like and be creative in how you can redeploy this headcount, or recruit it in a snow emergency. Be creative.

    That said, again , don't let your anecdotal piece about "never" missing things because of snow taint the desire for continuous improvement, as you also cited. I've managed large and small headcounts in this city, and every snowfall, I had an exponentially increased absenteeism rate. The same goes at -30, high winds, etc. Sure, people like me pushed through more out of a sense of duty (you call it toughness), but I will also say there were several times where the smarter decision was to just stay home. Luck does not equal skill. ...and again, "gud enuf" sometimes isn't...
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanC View Post
    (...)
    Yea, so long story short, i drove for the conditions and didn't jump out of my house expecting every road to be plowed to the bare pavement.
    (...).
    I missed this line...I don't think people here are expecting every road to be plowed to the bare pavement. That is a bit of hyperbole compared to what I have read, and even said, to date.
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  28. #2428

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    Edmonton is not in the top 10 cities for snowfall in Canada — all are in the East — nor does it make the top 10 for the number of days it snows,
    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/snow+...943/story.html

    Interesting cost analysis
    New York City
    Area[1]
    • Total 468.484 sq mi (1,213.37 km2)
    • Land 302.643 sq mi (783.84 km2)

    Edmonton

    Area (2016)[5][6][7]
    • Land 685.25 km2 (264.58 sq mi)




    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 28-01-2018 at 05:21 PM.
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    How much effort does it take for the city to do it right the first time?

    All the bickering at City Hall about how low to plow the snow, then plowing it to the side of the street.
    Last edited by The_Cat; 28-01-2018 at 05:27 PM.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  30. #2430

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Let them chirp. That is the point.

    Get out there an find out if the majority (and I mean a real majority, not a very vocal minority of loud chirpers)...wants to pay for better snow removal. Be transparent on it...

    Then, at least, the City Administration has a better leg to stand on when, as you suggest, those that chirped about price now chirp about lack of delivery...you have a leg to stand on to say bugger off!
    We have those - they're called elections and plebiscites. And they've given us what we've got.
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

  31. #2431

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Cat View Post
    How much effort does it take for the city to do it right the first time?

    All the bickering at City Hall about how low to plow the snow, then plowing it to the side of the street.
    Depends on whose version of "right" you agree with. There seem to be many.
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

  32. #2432

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Let them chirp. That is the point.

    Get out there an find out if the majority (and I mean a real majority, not a very vocal minority of loud chirpers)...wants to pay for better snow removal. Be transparent on it...

    Then, at least, the City Administration has a better leg to stand on when, as you suggest, those that chirped about price now chirp about lack of delivery...you have a leg to stand on to say bugger off!
    Why should we have to pay more?. Can the C of E not come up with a better plan within it's existing budget?. If this winter season continues the way it has with very few days of snow there should be a surplus going into next season. It's way to easy for the C of E to ask taxpayers to foot the bill rather then them coming up with better ideas. It's just sheer laziness on their part to stick another few dollars onto property taxes because they cannot operate on the millions they already collect. Pffft.........
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  33. #2433

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    Agreed. Throwing more money at the problem is not the solution.

    I see a lot of inefficiency and lack of common sense
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  34. #2434

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    was out and about today, a couple of observations. 1. Saw aguy in a car totally spinning the wheels to get moving when the lights changed,nice job, let’s make the intersection even more slippery. 2. Cars going throughred lights, presumably they were unable/ unwilling to stop in time. 3. Crappytruck parked on a snow route. 4. A SUV and a grader in a mashup. Not sure ifthe SUV rear ended the grader or if the grader operator reversed into the SUV.Either way, it would not have happened in the SUV driver stayed back 15m.

    Just seems like there is all sorts of blame to go around.People should be forced to take some sort of winter driving training, cityshould be out there ticketing cars on snow routes. Pretty frustrating to seeall of the above. It all comes back to bite everyone in the end, higher insurance costs, extra costs for clearing streets, streets not completely graded….siggghhhhh

  35. #2435

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    Has a snow route ban been called?
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  36. #2436

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Has a snow route ban been called?
    3 days ago, announced on all the media. But you were looking elsewhere.

    I see a lot of inefficiency and lack of common sense
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

  37. #2437
    I'd rather C2E than work!
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    So the big dump of snow began on Thursday evening and continued all day Friday.

    Today, 72 hours later, I still see city buses spinning their tires and other vehicles fishtailing.
    I can't wait to read this thread after the Monday morning commute!

  38. #2438

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    Quote Originally Posted by North Guy66 View Post
    So the big dump of snow began on Thursday evening and continued all day Friday.

    Today, 72 hours later, I still see city buses spinning their tires and other vehicles fishtailing.
    I can't wait to read this thread after the Monday morning commute!

    Drove from South Side to Downtown at 6 a.m. Roads were paved but not sanded. Kept my distance from the Truckers who like to show off during these conditions and got to work pretty much in the same time I usually do.

    Something I've noticed and for those who work downtown, be prepared for Windrows.

    Not sure if the city plans to get rid of them, but if they don't, then the drive home commute will be interesting considering we're now down to 1 lane.

  39. #2439

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Agreed. Throwing more money at the problem is not the solution.

    I see a lot of inefficiency and lack of common sense

    I keep getting the feeling we're really not throwing money away at all.

    We haven't had any snow since November except for what we saw Friday.

    How much of the budget prior to Friday's Sh&t show has been spent on snow removal?

    Why do I get the feeling that money is being hoarded some how?

  40. #2440

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    I had to drive to appointment downtown this morning, roads were in great winter driving conditions considering the recent snowfalls. No issues what so ever. Everyone was calm, left lots of space. Took around the average amount of time I would've expected it to take to drive there and back.

    Still a few people spinning at intersections, but I think people have been spoiled in recent years. This is fairly normal.

  41. #2441

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    Zero issues with my commute this morning.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  42. #2442

    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by SP59 View Post
    When has there been constant snow over several days this winter?
    Believe it or not, Edmonton has had snow in years previous to this one.....

    Did I say THIS winter? No.

  43. #2443

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ustauk View Post
    From the City of Edmonton twitter account:
    Quote Originally Posted by City of Edmonton Twitter
    Five numbers and four words to live by as your City moves the snow today:


    211 staff working
    72 plows, 17 graders & 16 sanders on the roads
    1 o'clock a.m when plowing started
    Those 4 words to live by: Drive to road conditions!
    These number don't really add up considering they're still not done clearing...

    11,000 km's of road.
    Even if plows work in pairs for the wide multilane roads, that makes 36 pairs of plows.
    Each pair now has 305 KM's to plow.
    At 30 km/h which is quite slow but makes up the difference between city driving and freeway driving, it should take them just over 10 hours to plow every KM of street.
    So it should have been done Sat evening IF they started 1AM Saturday morning like they claimed. Why isn't it all done yet? Traffic on Saturdays is not as bad as weekday rush traffic...

  44. #2444

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    Plows not only work in pairs, but quite often seen in triplets and quads. It becomes extra difficult when people ignore the parking ban on snow routes. and 30 km/h might seem fast, but I bet it's closer to 10km/h.

  45. #2445
    I'd rather C2E than work!
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    Quote Originally Posted by alkeli View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ustauk View Post
    From the City of Edmonton twitter account:
    Quote Originally Posted by City of Edmonton Twitter
    Five numbers and four words to live by as your City moves the snow today:


    211 staff working
    72 plows, 17 graders & 16 sanders on the roads
    1 o'clock a.m when plowing started
    Those 4 words to live by: Drive to road conditions!
    These number don't really add up considering they're still not done clearing...

    11,000 km's of road.
    Even if plows work in pairs for the wide multilane roads, that makes 36 pairs of plows.
    Each pair now has 305 KM's to plow.
    At 30 km/h which is quite slow but makes up the difference between city driving and freeway driving, it should take them just over 10 hours to plow every KM of street.
    So it should have been done Sat evening IF they started 1AM Saturday morning like they claimed. Why isn't it all done yet? Traffic on Saturdays is not as bad as weekday rush traffic...
    - Because it's not 1 swipe and done
    - Because all those pieces of equipment are not snow plows. Some are dump trucks, some are bobcats to clear intersections, etc.
    - Because employees need sleep and breaks
    - Because traffic
    - Because the snow did not all fall at once, so they have to go over many areas multiple times
    - Because unforseen impediments
    - Because refueling, moving from location to location, maintenance, etc are required
    - Because all kinds of other issues that I can't even think of to list here.

  46. #2446

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Zero issues with my commute this morning.
    Zero issues doesn't mean the roads are good. I've had zero issues the past week, but I drive 4x4 with winter tires so I never have issues. But the roads still sucked for many people since Friday. I saw people stuck yesterday, and people this morning in the west end sliding around still.

  47. #2447

  48. #2448

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex.L View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by alkeli View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ustauk View Post
    From the City of Edmonton twitter account:
    Quote Originally Posted by City of Edmonton Twitter
    Five numbers and four words to live by as your City moves the snow today:


    211 staff working
    72 plows, 17 graders & 16 sanders on the roads
    1 o'clock a.m when plowing started
    Those 4 words to live by: Drive to road conditions!
    These number don't really add up considering they're still not done clearing...

    11,000 km's of road.
    Even if plows work in pairs for the wide multilane roads, that makes 36 pairs of plows.
    Each pair now has 305 KM's to plow.
    At 30 km/h which is quite slow but makes up the difference between city driving and freeway driving, it should take them just over 10 hours to plow every KM of street.
    So it should have been done Sat evening IF they started 1AM Saturday morning like they claimed. Why isn't it all done yet? Traffic on Saturdays is not as bad as weekday rush traffic...
    - Because it's not 1 swipe and done
    - Because all those pieces of equipment are not snow plows. Some are dump trucks, some are bobcats to clear intersections, etc.
    - Because employees need sleep and breaks
    - Because traffic
    - Because the snow did not all fall at once, so they have to go over many areas multiple times
    - Because unforseen impediments
    - Because refueling, moving from location to location, maintenance, etc are required
    - Because all kinds of other issues that I can't even think of to list here.

    If when they state "72 plows", they're including bobcats and dump trucks, then we have a severe shortage of plows. To me, "plow" means PLOW. They also numbered it like they have double the staff to use the equipment which of course means not just 8 hours and done, it's shift work.

    Perhaps then they shouldn't put out numbers that don't make sense...

  49. #2449

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    Quote Originally Posted by alkeli View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Zero issues with my commute this morning.
    Zero issues doesn't mean the roads are good. I've had zero issues the past week, but I drive 4x4 with winter tires so I never have issues. But the roads still sucked for many people since Friday. I saw people stuck yesterday, and people this morning in the west end sliding around still.
    This is a winter city. Expecting the roads to be 100% snow+ice free is beyond ridiculous. Ice forms from compaction of snow, and can even from on dry roads, just from water vapours from exhaust.

    Someone tried to call me out earlier about knowing what type of tires people are driving on. Yes, they do spin! you are quite correct. But vehicles also come to a complete stop. Pretty easy to see when I'm walking by on the sidewalk. But hey, lets continue to excuse those who refuse to get with the times. ALL SEASON TIRES are not meant for snow and ice, and start acting more like a hockey puck than a tire with grip beginning at +7, and the colder it gets, the worse your all season tires perform.

  50. #2450

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alkeli View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex.L View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by alkeli View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ustauk View Post
    From the City of Edmonton twitter account:
    Quote Originally Posted by City of Edmonton Twitter
    Five numbers and four words to live by as your City moves the snow today:


    211 staff working
    72 plows, 17 graders & 16 sanders on the roads
    1 o'clock a.m when plowing started
    Those 4 words to live by: Drive to road conditions!
    These number don't really add up considering they're still not done clearing...

    11,000 km's of road.
    Even if plows work in pairs for the wide multilane roads, that makes 36 pairs of plows.
    Each pair now has 305 KM's to plow.
    At 30 km/h which is quite slow but makes up the difference between city driving and freeway driving, it should take them just over 10 hours to plow every KM of street.
    So it should have been done Sat evening IF they started 1AM Saturday morning like they claimed. Why isn't it all done yet? Traffic on Saturdays is not as bad as weekday rush traffic...
    - Because it's not 1 swipe and done
    - Because all those pieces of equipment are not snow plows. Some are dump trucks, some are bobcats to clear intersections, etc.
    - Because employees need sleep and breaks
    - Because traffic
    - Because the snow did not all fall at once, so they have to go over many areas multiple times
    - Because unforseen impediments
    - Because refueling, moving from location to location, maintenance, etc are required
    - Because all kinds of other issues that I can't even think of to list here.

    If when they state "72 plows", they're including bobcats and dump trucks, then we have a severe shortage of plows. To me, "plow" means PLOW. They also numbered it like they have double the staff to use the equipment which of course means not just 8 hours and done, it's shift work.

    Perhaps then they shouldn't put out numbers that don't make sense...
    I'm fine with the numbers, its you who concluded 2+2 = snow removal should be done by now.

  51. #2451

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    This is a winter city. Expecting the roads to be 100% snow+ice free is beyond ridiculous. Ice forms from compaction of snow, and can even from on dry roads, just from water vapours from exhaust.

    Someone tried to call me out earlier about knowing what type of tires people are driving on. Yes, they do spin! you are quite correct. But vehicles also come to a complete stop. Pretty easy to see when I'm walking by on the sidewalk. But hey, lets continue to excuse those who refuse to get with the times. ALL SEASON TIRES are not meant for snow and ice, and start acting more like a hockey puck than a tire with grip beginning at +7, and the colder it gets, the worse your all season tires perform.
    I know it's a winter city which is why I have winter tires and insist on driving 4x4/awd vehicles. But that doesn't excuse the city from being so slow at getting this done. Being a winter city, they should be quite efficient at it. Maybe we should follow Quebec and have mandatory winter tires during winter months. I know there are many on the roads who are impeding traffic because they're sliding all over the place and unable to move from a stop very well because they have all-seasons. I always buy winter tires for my truck and my wife's car because, WINTER.

    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    I'm fine with the numbers, its you who concluded 2+2 = snow removal should be done by now.
    As it should be.

  52. #2452

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    I don't find the city (snow removal) slow at all.

    Yes, I would be okay with following Quebec and parts of BC with mandatory Winter tires... but I bet many others wouldn't be okay with that.

    The biggest slow down in snow removal is moving around vehicles that are parked on the road. Some of those vehicles haven't moved in months. The city should really start enforcing the snow route ban. Instead, it just carefully plows around parked vehicles, slowing down removal.

    The snow removal of the main roads was pretty much completed by Saturday afternoon. Not sure how you are arriving at a different conclusion. Snow removal doesn't mean the roads are going to bare.

    I think maybe you need to consider your expectations are out of sorts. You seem to think that plows can just do a single pass and move around at 30km/h and should be done in a blink of an eye.

  53. #2453

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Jackson View Post
    Edmonton had 72 hours warning this was coming and to be ready. Nothing.
    This is funny. The city has know Winter is coming since last winter! I'm guessing you think the roads can be plowed before it snows?!!?!

  54. #2454

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    The snow removal of the main roads was pretty much completed by Saturday afternoon. Not sure how you are arriving at a different conclusion. Snow removal doesn't mean the roads are going to bare.
    Counterpoint: I went to the Pet Expo yesterday & there was half-a-lane-occupying windrows down the entire length of Jasper Ave mid-afternoon that are gone now. I would have expected them gone a day earlier.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  55. #2455

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    This here is the city of Edmonton's policy on snow removal.

    Policy Statement: Ensure that roadways are maintained in such a manner as to minimize economic lossto the community, prevent or reduce accident and injury, and facilitate the handling of emergencies by theemergency responders and police services.

    The purpose of this policy is to set winter snow and ice control standards to provide for a safe and reliabletransportation network while protecting the environment and providing excellent customer/citizen service.

    Winter Maintenance Programs (within city limits)Roadway Sanding:
    ● Crews will be on duty at all times from mid October to mid April to provide sand/saltmixture to meet weather conditions.
    ● Frequency of sanding is as indicated in Roadway Priority Hierarchy.

    Roadway Plowing:
    ● Plow snow from all freeways, arterial and collector roadways, bus routes and bus waysfollowing the end of a storm to achieve bare pavement.
    ● Plow snow as required from roadways (other than freeways, arterial and collectorroadways, roadways abutting schools and bus routes) carrying in excess of 1500 vehiclesper day and emergency access routes.

    Residential Blading:
    ● In any given snow event, a city-wide residential blading program will be initiated (includingAlleys) immediately after the Arterial and Collector road network has been plowed and
    ● considered to be in safe condition. Residential Roads will be bladed to a 5 cm snow packcondition.
    ● Residential blading will be completed within 7 days, commencing within 48 hours followingthe end of the snowfall.
    ● When rutting or snow drifting occurs, residential roadways will be bladed to maintain alevel, snow pack condition.
    ● Service level will only involve the blading of snow. Windrows (less then 30 cm in height)left behind blocking driveways will be the responsibility of the adjacent property owner.Windrows (more then 30 cm in height) left behind will be cleared as to not blockdriveways.
    ● Snow will not be hauled away except to permit safe passage.
    ● Notification of residential blading will be announced through the media. A parking ban willnot be used.
    ● In the event that a 5 cm snow pack cannot be maintained on residential roads within onecycle of blading, plowing to bare pavement will be initiated where required.
    ● Alleys adjacent to roadways subject to seasonal parking bans will be given priority and willbe bladed at the start of the residential blading cycle.


    Snow Removal:
    ● Remove snow from business districts as required.
    ● Remove snow from arterial roadways when curb lanes are reduced to less then 3.2metres in width by windrowed snow.
    ● Remove snow from collector roadways and bus routes as required when the driving widthor parking area restricts safe vehicular movement.
    ● Remove snow from roadways in the designated windrow free zone and school drop offzones adjacent to schools on both sides of the roadway, after every major snowfall whena full plowing cycle is completed.
    ● Remove snow as required from roadways (other than, arterial and collector roadways, andbus routes) carrying in excess of 1500 vehicles per day, when the driving width or parkingarea restricts safe vehicular movement


    Active Transportation Modes
    ● Plow snow from multi use trails and sidewalks adjacent to city owned land within 48 hoursof a snowfall where there is an accumulation of 2 cm or more.
    ● Snow will not be hauled away.
    ● Property owners are required to clear snow from sidewalks adjacent to their property(frontage and flankage) within 48 hours of the end of snowfall to meet the requirements ofthe Community Standards Bylaw #14600.
    ● Plow snow from designated bicycle lanes with the roadway plowing to the same servicelevel designated for that roadway.


    Transit Facilities
    ● Clear snow from all sidewalks, ramps, stairs and bus platforms at transit facilities within 24hours after the snowfall.
    ● Clear snow from all transit zone pads within 48 hours after the snowfall.


    Snow Storage Site Management:
    ● Snow removed from road right of way and private parking lots must be hauled to snowstorage sites to meet Environment Canada and Alberta Environment guidelines andCodes of Practice outlined in the Salt Management Plan.

    Street Sanding Recycling:
    ● All street sand collected shall be washed and recycled for re-use.

    Salt Management Plan:
    ● Report to both Alberta Environment and Environment Canada annually on road salt usageand road salt management. Meet Codes of Practice established by y TransportationAssociation of Canada and adopted by Environment Canada


    Severe Snowfall event
    A severe snowfall response can be initiated at the discretion of the General Manager of Transportation.This severe snowfall response can be initiated if there is a snowfall event of 30 cm or more thatthreatens the mobility of the roadway network. The focus of this severe snowfall response will be torestore immediate mobility, not to address roadway capacity. This severe snowfall response include
    ● Deployment of all available resources to ensure mobility of the roadway network
    ● Delegation of control of deployment of all available resources in all city departments associatedwith snow clearing to the Director of Roadway Maintenance.
    ● Plowing to bare pavement on residential roads.
    ● Declaration of an overnight parking ban on all residential roads


    Snow Emergency
    In the event of an extreme winter storm that causes the closure of a significant portion of the roadway network, the City Manager at his discretion can declare a snow emergency. This will initiate the activation of the Emergency Operations Centre. In this event all control of snow clearing activities will be through the Emergency Operation Centre and will focus on providing mobility for emergency and essential services only until generally mobility on the roadway network can be restored.

    Roadway Priority Hierarchy

    Priority I Freeways, Arterial roadways, Business Districts, Bus ways
    ● Sanding standard frequency, every 4 to 8 hours● Sanding storm frequency, every 2 to 4 hours
    ● Plow within 36 hours after end of snowfall

    Priority 2 Collector/Bus Route Roadways, Transit Park and Ride access roads
    ● Sanding standard frequency, every 8 to 12 hours
    ● Sanding storm frequency, every 4 to 8 hours
    Plow within 48 hours after the end of snowfall

    Priority 3 Local Industrial Roadways
    ● Sand on an as required basis
    ● Plow within 5 days after the end of snowfall

    Priority 4 Residential Roadways, Alleys
    ● Sand on an as required basis
    ● Blade level snow pack, start within 48 hours after snowfall and complete in 5days.
    ● Alleys adjacent to roadways subject to seasonal parking ban will be done first
    https://www.edmonton.ca/transportati...ives/C409I.pdf

  56. #2456

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    This here is the city of Edmonton's policy on snow removal.


    (...edited for brevity...)

    Roadway Priority Hierarchy

    Priority I Freeways, Arterial roadways, Business Districts, Bus ways
    ● Sanding standard frequency, every 4 to 8 hours● Sanding storm frequency, every 2 to 4 hours
    ● Plow within 36 hours after end of snowfall

    Priority 2 Collector/Bus Route Roadways, Transit Park and Ride access roads
    ● Sanding standard frequency, every 8 to 12 hours
    ● Sanding storm frequency, every 4 to 8 hours
    Plow within 48 hours after the end of snowfall

    Priority 3 Local Industrial Roadways
    ● Sand on an as required basis
    ● Plow within 5 days after the end of snowfall

    Priority 4 Residential Roadways, Alleys
    ● Sand on an as required basis
    ● Blade level snow pack, start within 48 hours after snowfall and complete in 5days.
    ● Alleys adjacent to roadways subject to seasonal parking ban will be done first
    https://www.edmonton.ca/transportati...ives/C409I.pdf
    Essentially proving CoE snow clearing is deficient. Here's a reminder what Ottawa gets for the same amount of money.
    When roads get plowed

    Snow removal is based on a road-priority system, with high-use roads and emergency and transit routes cleared first.

    • Major roads, arterials and major collector roads: Plows are deployed at the start of accumulation.
    • After the last snowflake falls:
      • Major roads, arterials and major collectors: Within four hours
        Roads will not be bare pavement during a storm.
      • Minor collector roads: Within six hours
      • Residential roads and lanes: Within 16 hours

    Under extreme winter storm conditions (i.e. those that exceed normal conditions), snow and ice control operations will be carried out based on the capacity of resources in as continuous a manner as practicable. This will give crews the flexibility to provide relief in residential areas while simultaneously maintaining and clearing priority roads.

    When sidewalks get cleared

    After the last snowflake falls:

    • Sidewalks in the downtown core: Within 6 hours
    • Downtown residential sidewalks: Within 12 hours
    • Residential sidewalks: Within 16 hours
    • Intersections and pedestrian crossings: Within 16 hours
    • Bus stops: Within 24 hours after clean up

    If your sidewalk has not been cleared 72 hours after the end of a snowfall, please call 3-1-1. The City does not clear snow from driveways or private sidewalks leading to a residence.
    https://ottawa.ca/en/residents/trans...er-maintenance

    Every single surface in Ottawa--including all sidewalks--is done 12 hours before plowing of Priority I roads (i.e. Freeways) even begins in Edmonton.

  57. #2457

  58. #2458

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    except Ottawa has gone far over budget... so http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa...dget-1.4013496
    I would rather have the city go over budget and have them be more efficient and recover a few buck from everyone in a different way rather than have insurance for everyone go up because accident rates are higher. The city is has already raised parking and other fines.

    Don't know why you defend the city so much for their shortcomings. I grew up in Ontario with much more snow than what we get here and there were never these delays. Even a small northern town does a better job. And yeah I know you're going to say something about scaling because of different amounts of street coverage, but as streets and population scales, so should its public works capabilities. There's really no valid excuse other than "not enough"; budget, crews, equipment, planning, foresight.

  59. #2459

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    except Ottawa has gone far over budget... so http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa...dget-1.4013496
    They blew through their budget because they got excessive amounts of snow... including 77 cm in February 2017 alone which itself includes 54 cm in a single 5-day period.

    To put this in context we've had a grand total of 36 cm of snow since November. Yet people are still going to have to wait more than a week for roads to be "bladed to a 5 cm snow pack".


  60. #2460
    I'd rather C2E than work!
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    First big dump and the usual issues have returned.

    Equipment. Not enough and not the right kind. Why don't we have front mounted plows? We can't have them driving around city streets at 60 km/h throwing snow 5-10 m like they do on the highways, but slow them down a bit and they will make windrows as high as needed much faster than graders will. RichardS had a great suggestion about increasing the fleet affordably by keeping older equipment around longer. What's wrong with a 20 year old truck if it is only going to be used a few times a year?

    Urban design. We had this right last century with boulevards. Then we stopped using them in the 1950s and as a result there is nowhere to store snow on most of Edmonton's residential roads, making proper clearing expensive, so we don't do it. Then there are the silly 1-2 m wide concrete medians in the middle of a lot of arterial roads. Not wide enough to store a winter's worth of snow, but also not easily cleared between storms. Over the coming week (or more) we will see fleets of graders moving windrows off of those medians and back into traffic lanes for pickup. If the center of the road was just flat asphalt, snow piled there could be picked up directly with no need for the graders - faster, cheaper, more efficient.

  61. #2461

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    I'm arguing that we get what we pay for, as per the policy outlined by council and administration.

    Could it be better? Certainly. Write your Councillors and mayor and tell them you want better service, demand that they compare what we get to what other cities get per dollar spent per km covered.

    Arguing here that the city is following the policy outlined is stupid - we are getting what the policy says we will get.

    I think the city needs to start enforcing the parking bans. This would improve efficiency. Which would help get roads cleared quicker. I live right off a bus route. I watched as 3-4 plows delicately went around cars parked on the road. Doing so probably added double to triple the amount of time it should take to clear the small section of road I live on. There's the crux of the issue.

  62. #2462

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    I'm arguing that we get what we pay for, as per the policy outlined by council and administration.

    Could it be better? Certainly. Write your Councillors and mayor and tell them you want better service, demand that they compare what we get to what other cities get per dollar spent per km covered.

    Arguing here that the city is following the policy outlined is stupid - we are getting what the policy says we will get.

    I think the city needs to start enforcing the parking bans. This would improve efficiency. Which would help get roads cleared quicker. I live right off a bus route. I watched as 3-4 plows delicately went around cars parked on the road. Doing so probably added double to triple the amount of time it should take to clear the small section of road I live on. There's the crux of the issue.
    So the city sets the bar intentionally low, charges an arm and a leg for it, only just meets this bare minimum (even that's debatable) and you're saying we should be happy with the result. How does that make sense?

  63. #2463

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    I'm saying write your councilors and the mayor if you are unhappy with the policy, or the amount we spend to implement the policy, or if you think the policy needs to change. I'm sure some of you already have. I feel that the one or two major snowfall events we get a year aren't worthy of further expenditure. In terms of $$$ for service received, compared to other jurisdictions, I'm not really in a position to properly study if we are getting enough bang for our dollar spent, I do know that Edmonton has higher labour rates compared to most, and with most things like this, labour is usually one of the highest costs of providing service.

    FWIW, I rarely drive to work, I walk/bike. I prefer snow cover over bare winter roads, because it provides better grip. I own a truck for the times its too cold, or I need to drive somewhere else for work. I get around without issue no matter what the conditions are. I don't really have a problem with the city's policy, nor the money we spend to cover said policy, and without the breakdown of each snow budget, I'm not going to waft into a budget debate with other cities.

  64. #2464

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    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    So the city sets the bar intentionally low, charges an arm and a leg for it, only just meets this bare minimum (even that's debatable) and you're saying we should be happy with the result. How does that make sense?
    Bingo, but don't forget to say thank you for the sub-par service!

    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    FWIW, I rarely drive to work, I walk/bike. I prefer snow cover over bare winter roads, because it provides better grip. I own a truck for the times its too cold, or I need to drive somewhere else for work.
    So in other words you are in absolutely no position to comment on daily driving conditions during winter storms when people are stuck in traffic and snow covered streets trying to get to work.

    You opinion on this matter is very skewed compared to the rest of us so I see no further point in you commenting on this issue because you do not experience the same thing as anyone complaining here, and in fact you say you prefer it.

    Please stop commenting on things you don't even have to deal with then. You have nothing to contribute here. This is like someone who doesn't even OWN a car or ever commutes complaining about road conditions... geez...

  65. #2465

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    I still have driven around on Friday and today. I do see the roads. I think molehills are being made into snowmountains, and I've driven around and many years solely car-commuted. I have lots to contribute. But go on... wahhhhhhhhhh wahhhh wahhh. My tires spun and it took 30 seconds longer to get to work.

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    Maybe they can have a plow for the LRT.
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  67. #2467

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    I still have driven around on Friday and today. I do see the roads. I think molehills are being made into snowmountains, and I've driven around and many years solely car-commuted. I have lots to contribute. But go on... wahhhhhhhhhh wahhhh wahhh. My tires spun and it took 30 seconds longer to get to work.
    When a 30 minute drive to work turns into 1 hour 20 minutes, yeah, it's an issue. Again, I have no issues getting around, but most others do. And again, you have nothing to contribute and you're obviously not affected, even more apparent by the immaturity shown here now...

  68. #2468

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    tell me I have nothing to contribute certainly shows your maturity. and I'm surprised you're telling me I have nothing to contribute because it doesn't affect me when you've offered a similiar buy-out. Truck, 4x4, winter tires, etc....

    I am as much entitled to share my opinion on the subject as anyone else, as if I needed to ask for your approval before contributing. now that we have that out of the way, I also have my family that does commute around the city, and I also here from all my friends, neighbours, work colllegues, etc.

    Friday sucked. Yes, a few hours after a decent snow fall, the roads were predictable shi!!tty.

    Monday? Well done city of Edmonton. The roads are in great shape. A bit of ice here and there, but really certainly not the disaster they were on Friday. Ottawa, Toronto, New York - all would've been the same mess on Friday too, and it doesn't matter if nosterdomus or the local weather guy predicted it was gong to snow on such and such a day, you can't start clearing the snow until a reasonable amount has fallen, and even then, it makes sense to wait for it to stop to start a reasonable attempt at cleaning up the 11,000 km of roadways in this city.

  69. #2469

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    tell me I have nothing to contribute certainly shows your maturity. and I'm surprised you're telling me I have nothing to contribute because it doesn't affect me when you've offered a similiar buy-out. Truck, 4x4, winter tires, etc....

    I am as much entitled to share my opinion on the subject as anyone else, as if I needed to ask for your approval before contributing. now that we have that out of the way, I also have my family that does commute around the city, and I also here from all my friends, neighbours, work colllegues, etc.

    Friday sucked. Yes, a few hours after a decent snow fall, the roads were predictable shi!!tty.

    Monday? Well done city of Edmonton. The roads are in great shape. A bit of ice here and there, but really certainly not the disaster they were on Friday. Ottawa, Toronto, New York - all would've been the same mess on Friday too, and it doesn't matter if nosterdomus or the local weather guy predicted it was gong to snow on such and such a day, you can't start clearing the snow until a reasonable amount has fallen, and even then, it makes sense to wait for it to stop to start a reasonable attempt at cleaning up the 11,000 km of roadways in this city.
    It's obvious you've never lived in Ottawa or Toronto if you think they would have had the same mess on Friday that we suffered through. You're also dreaming if you think the roads are in great shape considering that the vast, vast majority of them haven't even been touched yet.

  70. #2470

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    I'm not sure how you can arrive at that answer. It was still snowing hard Friday morning.

    By late Saturday, all the the main arteries in this city have been plowed, and the residential roads started, and the parking ban in place.

    Not sure what city you are living in, but the roads I traveled in Edmonton this morning were in great winter driving conditions. If you are expecting bone dry roads, that doesn't happen here or in Ottawa until it melts, and it melts sooner more often in Ottawa.

  71. #2471

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    I'm not sure how you can arrive at that answer. It was still snowing hard Friday morning.

    By late Saturday, all the the main arteries in this city have been plowed, and the residential roads started, and the parking ban in place.

    Not sure what city you are living in, but the roads I traveled in Edmonton this morning were in great winter driving conditions. If you are expecting bone dry roads, that doesn't happen here or in Ottawa until it melts, and it melts sooner more often in Ottawa.
    Have you not been reading? In Ottawa major roads are cleared within 4 hours after the snow stops and all residential streets within 16 hours. For that matter all sidewalks are also cleared within 16 hours. And cleared means to pavement. It doesn't mean waiting 168 hours for roads to be bladed to a 5 cm deep glacial pack that is guaranteed not to melt until April.

    And you're also wrong about snow melting sooner in Ottawa: the January temperatures are almost identical between Ottawa and Edmonton to within 0.1°C. In February Edmonton is actually warmer than Ottawa.

    Edmonton is not doing a good job; anyone who's spent time elsewhere realizes this. The arterials are not in great winter driving condition; they're just barely acceptable. Collectors are still largely snow covered. And the vast majority of residential streets haven't even been started on let alone finished.

  72. #2472

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Cat View Post
    Maybe they can have a plow for the LRT.
    I'd like to see Iveson put a plow on the front of his bike. He can single handily clean all the bike paths he's foisted on us Edmontonians.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  73. #2473

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    If anything, more bike lanes means less road to be cleared.
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post

    City of Edmonton
    @CityofEdmonton


    We're on it! 211 people and 118 pieces of equipment are out clearing bike lanes, roads, and sidewalks this morning. Please ride/drive to conditions. #yegwx#yegtraffic
    .
    Laughable.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    It is easy for Medwards to read the brand and type on spinning tires of other cars as his eyes spin in their sockets LOL

    More a fetish for winter tires or stocks in Goodyear......
    Make the RIGHT choice before you take your last breath......

  76. #2476

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    are you saying that he has a rubber fetish?
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  77. #2477

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    Another rant. According to the article below neighbourhood "blading" is supposed to begin Tuesday morning (about 72 hours after the bulk of the snow stopped). My neighbourhood is in maintenance area 201 which, according to the city's website, gets bladed on Tuesdays. But the website still doesn't say which Tuesday. Is it tomorrow? Or next week? How are the hundreds of people who park on the street in my neighbourhood supposed to know when to move their vehicles? The answer is, of course, they won't know, so they won't move anything, and the blading will be a mess.

    Of course, it might not matter at all: in the three years I've lived at this address I've yet to have a single snowplow on my street.

    http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/e...ring-1.4509504

    You can download the blading schedule for the entire city here and as of Monday night--about 10 hours before blading begins--not a single neighbourhood is scheduled: the entire city is listed as "TBD".

    https://www.edmonton.ca/transportati...mpaign=blading

  78. #2478

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    More great news.

    Freezing rain is predicted for tonight.

    Can't wait to see how this will affect the morning commute tomorrow.

  79. #2479

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    Quote Originally Posted by cnr67 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    It is easy for Medwards to read the brand and type on spinning tires of other cars as his eyes spin in their sockets LOL

    More a fetish for winter tires or stocks in Goodyear......

    A fetish for driving safe, and equipping my vehicle so I'm not at the whims of the city and province road clearing schedule. I know, I know, you've driven 75 years on all-season tires and never had an incident, but always the first one to gripe come every snow fall, with fond memories of your childhood in Winterpeg and how they lick cleaned the roads the moment a snowflake fell

  80. #2480

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    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    Another rant. According to the article below neighbourhood "blading" is supposed to begin Tuesday morning (about 72 hours after the bulk of the snow stopped). My neighbourhood is in maintenance area 201 which, according to the city's website, gets bladed on Tuesdays. But the website still doesn't say which Tuesday. Is it tomorrow? Or next week? How are the hundreds of people who park on the street in my neighbourhood supposed to know when to move their vehicles? The answer is, of course, they won't know, so they won't move anything, and the blading will be a mess.

    Of course, it might not matter at all: in the three years I've lived at this address I've yet to have a single snowplow on my street.

    http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/e...ring-1.4509504

    You can download the blading schedule for the entire city here and as of Monday night--about 10 hours before blading begins--not a single neighbourhood is scheduled: the entire city is listed as "TBD".

    https://www.edmonton.ca/transportati...mpaign=blading
    They have now updated the schedule.

    My neighbourhood is scheduled for today. As such, no advance warning. Parked cars all over the place.

    Other neighbourhoods scheduled as late as February 5. That's 10 full days after the snow fall. Regardless of whether you think the policy as written is satisfactory or not, the city is clearly not living up to their side of the deal.

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    Pleased to see some?/most of the windrows removed last night in the Downtown core. That said, I wish there had been a blower and truck on Sunday going.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Cat View Post
    Maybe they can have a plow for the LRT.
    I'd like to see Iveson put a plow on the front of his bike. He can single handily clean all the bike paths he's foisted on us Edmontonians.
    Noah's ark was built by volunteers...... The Titanic was built by professionals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    are you saying that he has a rubber fetish?
    He's certainly in love with his tires.......
    Make the RIGHT choice before you take your last breath......

  84. #2484

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    I'd say it's the "all-seasons or bust" people that are the most in love with their tires, what with their inability to be separated from their crap rubber for a moment. Matt can leave a set of tires neglected for 6 months out of every year, does that sound like love?
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

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    I've found the roads to be in better condition than previous years. Our alley still gets bladed on a regular basis. The bare pavement black ice might be a little more prominent, but this thread is about snow and city streets.

    We have snow tires for both our vehicles. I have never let the snow or weather stop me from my regular routine. I just can't fathom how someone could say "can't come. the roads are bad".

  86. #2486

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    The residential blading is a joke and waste of money.. Basically the truck just goes down the middle of the road barely doing anything. The blading doesn't even go down to the payment. When it warms up, it turns to mush.

  87. #2487

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobleea View Post
    I've found the roads to be in better condition than previous years. Our alley still gets bladed on a regular basis. The bare pavement black ice might be a little more prominent, but this thread is about snow and city streets.

    We have snow tires for both our vehicles. I have never let the snow or weather stop me from my regular routine. I just can't fathom how someone could say "can't come. the roads are bad".
    They plow the alleys far more often than the residential streets
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by nobleea View Post
    I've found the roads to be in better condition than previous years. Our alley still gets bladed on a regular basis. The bare pavement black ice might be a little more prominent, but this thread is about snow and city streets.

    We have snow tires for both our vehicles. I have never let the snow or weather stop me from my regular routine. I just can't fathom how someone could say "can't come. the roads are bad".
    They plow the alleys far more often than the residential streets
    Good, as they should. With cars turning hard to get in driveways and garages this chews up the snow far more and creates more ruts and chances to get stuck. Plus there's no side to side flexibility as there is on wider roads.

    Despite being a mature neighbourhood, we have wide roads and everyone parks in their garage, so there's lots of room on the streets. I can understand on T-town and the new burbs it could be a lot hairier.

  89. #2489

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    They plow the alleys mainly for the benefit of trash and recycling collection. Not for you and me.
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    Just to stir the pot. People are angry when bike lanes are cleared before roads, yet don't bat an eye when alleys are cleared before roads.
    Last edited by Alex.L; 31-01-2018 at 10:16 AM.

  91. #2491

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex.L View Post
    Just to stir the pot. People are angry when bike lanes are cleared before roads, yet don't bat an eye when alleys are cleared before roads. Interesting.
    Stirring the wrong pot. Some 370,000 homes in Edmonton have need of or choose to use garbage and recycle collection. And they pay for this service in addition to their taxes.
    Last edited by bpeters; 31-01-2018 at 10:25 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex.L View Post
    Just to stir the pot. People are angry when bike lanes are cleared before roads, yet don't bat an eye when alleys are cleared before roads. Interesting.
    Stirring the wrong pot. Some 370,000 homes in Edmonton have need of or choose to use garbage and recycle collection. And they pay for this service in addition to their taxes.
    And all because someone many moons ago made the decision to build neighbourhoods that way. Much like the decision has now been made to build bike lanes. We all pay for both services with our taxes.

  93. #2493

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex.L View Post
    We all pay for both services with our taxes.
    Correction. As mentioned in my post, garbage and recycling collection is NOT included in your taxes. It is a service offered by the CoE but is a separate fee. The plowing of alleys (for garbage and recycle collection) is out of necessity and to some degree a 'paid for' service. CoE likely doesn't plow the alleys where collection is in the front street (but I don't know this). It appears you are trying to link the clearing of alley ways and bike paths and there's no link. Two different beasts. There's a separate thread on who paid for the bike lanes and who uses them and of course, who doesn't.
    He who posteth too much, should moveth out of his parents basement and get a life.

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    Of course the same equipment is used for alleys and roads, whereas bike lanes have separate equipment. All I'm saying is that plowing alleys is using machinery (paid for by tax dollars) that could otherwise be used on actual roads. I'm not really serious, but it's kind of hilarious that nobody cares when alleys are plowed 15x/winter but all hell breaks loose when bike lanes are cleared ahead of roads.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cnr67 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    It is easy for Medwards to read the brand and type on spinning tires of other cars as his eyes spin in their sockets LOL

    More a fetish for winter tires or stocks in Goodyear......

    A fetish for driving safe, and equipping my vehicle so I'm not at the whims of the city and province road clearing schedule. I know, I know, you've driven 75 years on all-season tires and never had an incident, but always the first one to gripe come every snow fall, with fond memories of your childhood in Winterpeg and how they lick cleaned the roads the moment a snowflake fell
    And they still do my little ray of sunstroke.That's what REAL WINTER CITIES DO!! You have a problem being wrong. One day, you WILL admit it...Here is the difference between you and I. Your skill set depends on equipment on your car,or what ever it is you drive. Mine on knowledge and aptitude. I drive far more than just little mommy and daddy suvs. Rather many different kinds of large vehicles. Not all are equipped the same. SO, this means I MUST know how to handle them in ANY condition on any surface. I cannot help the fact that this city is an absolute farce with it's roads and that folks like you accept it as normal. I gave the numbers previous illustrating what a joke this city is with snow removal and you posted NOTHING to refute the fact that this city is woefully negligent and and utter disgrace. Embarrassment is a better term. Tell ya what...You spend the extra and drive in excess of conditions on YOUR SNOW TIRES. I'll Stick with my OLD FASHIONED all seasons and drive within the conditions. Happy driving....LOLOLOLOL
    Make the RIGHT choice before you take your last breath......

  96. #2496

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    Sweden's gender-balanced snow-clearing policy

    Snow removal, ambulance transport and school performance -- with the strategy of gender mainstreaming, a gender perspective is applied to all kinds of services that we provide on behalf of our citizens. In a new film, Swedish Association of Local Authorities and Regions shows how both citizens, municipalities and regions can benefit from gender equality. The film aims at illustrating the principles of gender mainstreaming through concrete examples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cnr67 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cnr67 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    It is easy for Medwards to read the brand and type on spinning tires of other cars as his eyes spin in their sockets LOL

    More a fetish for winter tires or stocks in Goodyear......

    A fetish for driving safe, and equipping my vehicle so I'm not at the whims of the city and province road clearing schedule. I know, I know, you've driven 75 years on all-season tires and never had an incident, but always the first one to gripe come every snow fall, with fond memories of your childhood in Winterpeg and how they lick cleaned the roads the moment a snowflake fell
    And they still do my little ray of sunstroke.That's what REAL WINTER CITIES DO!! You have a problem being wrong. One day, you WILL admit it...Here is the difference between you and I. Your skill set depends on equipment on your car,or what ever it is you drive. Mine on knowledge and aptitude. I drive far more than just little mommy and daddy suvs. Rather many different kinds of large vehicles. Not all are equipped the same. SO, this means I MUST know how to handle them in ANY condition on any surface. I cannot help the fact that this city is an absolute farce with it's roads and that folks like you accept it as normal. I gave the numbers previous illustrating what a joke this city is with snow removal and you posted NOTHING to refute the fact that this city is woefully negligent and and utter disgrace. Embarrassment is a better term. Tell ya what...You spend the extra and drive in excess of conditions on YOUR SNOW TIRES. I'll Stick with my OLD FASHIONED all seasons and drive within the conditions. Happy driving....LOLOLOLOL

    And the whining just goes on and on ...

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    ^^ Totally the wrong way to frame the issue. Snow clearing priorities that favor drivers over cyclists and pedestrians might be bad policy, but it isn't sexist just because there is a statistical excess of male drivers and of female pedestrians. Changes to the priorities to favor pedestrians and cyclists can and should be defended on the basis of maximizing benefits and minimizing overall risk of injury, not by inventing a gender bias where none exists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    They plow the alleys mainly for the benefit of trash and recycling collection. Not for you and me.
    Yes, but if a private vehicle (or 5) gets stuck in the alley, the garbage truck has to back up the length of the alley and go around the other way. So everyone benefits.

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    I agree with plowing alleys but some winters they plow the alleys 7 times (even twice in one week when no snow fell) but my snow clogged street only once and that was just a light blading.
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