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Thread: Does Canada perpetuate aboriginal people living in poverty?

  1. #1

    Default Does Canada perpetuate aboriginal people living in poverty?

    How come all our policies in Canada perpetuate the situation of aboriginal people living in poverty on remote, isolated reserves under the argument that they need to preserve their distinct culture and lifestyle?

    The culture of the mainstream Western world has evolved dramatically over time, and continues to evolve at breakneck speeed, even during the course of one generation (computers/internet/cell phones for example) and people just adapt and are happy.

    But for some reason we seem to believe that the culture of aboriginal groups needs to be preserved in some former era and include a "traditional" diet based largely of hunting, fishing, and some gathering.

    It is possible to move away from a hunter/gatherer lifestyle, join the mainstream capitalist economy, and still maintain a rich and vibrant culture...just look at India and China, and Japan, they obviously have distinct cultures. Just like a lot of European countries have distinct cultures from each other.

    Maintaining cultural traditions is one thing, but poverty is not a tradition.

    I personally would like to see the reserve system abolished and encourage all first nations to join the mainstream Canadian economy and prosper, while maintaining their own culture if they choose. Just like lots of immigrants to Canada have joined mainstream society but preserved rich and wonderful aspects of a distinct culture like religion, food, traditions, and language.

    Thoughts?


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  2. #2

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    I think a lot of racism and prejudice exists in this country because "they" live on reserves, and "we" don't. It's one of the many unintended consequences of the reserve system that was set up many generations ago, during an entirely different time.

    I don't know what the solution is, but I think it has always up to Aboriginals to decide what they want to do and what's best for them.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    I don't know what the solution is, but I think it has always up to Aboriginals to decide what they want to do and what's best for them.
    Well, not exactly, since Canadians' taxes pay for it all. Also the First Nations don't elect anybody to parliament so are they really participating in making the laws that affect them? I guess they are involved in the "negotiations" leading up to making the laws.

  4. #4

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    I mean, I think the decision rests with Aboriginals as to whether they want to be more integrated with the rest of Canada, or maintain isolation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Transplanted_Edm View Post
    But for some reason we seem to believe that the culture of aboriginal groups needs to be preserved in some former era and include a "traditional" diet based largely of hunting, fishing, and some gathering.

    It is possible to move away from a hunter/gatherer lifestyle...
    How many reserves are actually like that? Most of them seem to be nothing more than rural ghettos.
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    The statistics on quality of life, health, wealth and so on of aboriginals who live off reserve vs. on reserve are pretty stark. It's obvious the reservation system has failed. But it's not so simple as just abolishing it.

    I really don't know what the solution is, but the status quo certainly isn't it. Personally I think that a lot of talk about "preserving traditional cultures" is just plain bunk, largely based around "noble savage" ignorance. The ironic thing is that even with the current sad state of affairs, aboriginal people live longer, healthier lives with less infant mortality, disease and starvation than they ever did before Europeans arrived.
    Last edited by Marcel Petrin; 10-12-2010 at 12:15 PM.

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    There is no doubt that the reserve structure has created an Entitlement Society. This has been supported all along by a ( no matter what your political stripe) Liberal society.

    The ironic thing is that ultimately First Nation entitlements, many which are enshrined in the constitution will be challenged most by the very same society. Demographics will move a majority of the the baby boom into their entitlement years. There will only be so much money to go round for pensions , health care etc . After working a lifetime people will demand their entitlements for a lifetime of contribution. The fundamental situation will not have changed , the perceptions most certainly will. An older larger population seeking now entitlements will be resentful of a younger generation with entrenched rights withdrawing from the same pot. There will be uncomfortable times ahead

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    The ironic thing is that even with the current sad state of affairs, aboriginal people live longer, healthier lives with less infant mortality, disease and starvation than they ever did before Europeans arrived.
    I would suspect you would have a problem validating that statistic given the records kept at the time.

    Further, we are all enjoying longer and more productive lives as a result of the various sciences.

    I can give you thousands of examples of immigrants comming to Canada whose original circumstances were not that much different that those of the native peoples.
    It's time for the natives to take the initiative.
    We do them a disservice to cater to their ancestral customs where children are involved and must someday compete and a changing world.
    Last edited by Old Dawg; 10-12-2010 at 03:17 PM.
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  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Dawg View Post
    We do them a disservice to cater to their ancestral customs where children are involved and must someday compete and a changing world.
    I agree with this. It's difficult (not impossible, but very difficult) to prosper in an environment isolated from the progress and change that is happening everywhere else.

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    I would suspect your would have a problem validating that statistic gevn the records kept at the time.
    No doubt that exact statistics on infant/child mortality, life expectancy and so on would be non-existent. But archaeologists and anthropologists can make some pretty educated guesses. While obviously there's more chronic diseases, alcohol abuse, physical/sexual abuse, and obesity it's likely that a quarter or a third of children in subsistence hunter/gatherer societies didn't make it to 15.

    Of course it would also vary greatly from region to region, tribe to tribe, and even from one time period to another. Some of the more advanced societies might well have had pretty decent standards of living.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    I would suspect you would have a problem validating that statistic given the records kept at the time.
    No doubt that exact statistics on infant/child mortality, life expectancy and so on would be non-existent. But archaeologists and anthropologists can make some pretty educated guesses. While obviously there's more chronic diseases, alcohol abuse, physical/sexual abuse, and obesity it's likely that a quarter or a third of children in subsistence hunter/gatherer societies didn't make it to 15.

    Of course it would also vary greatly from region to region, tribe to tribe, and even from one time period to another. Some of the more advanced societies might well have had pretty decent standards of living.
    I have no valid data to discuss this issue with you so will not hazard a guess.
    I am sure that infant mortality was very prevalent prior to the discovery of sulfa drugs and sterilzation methods in both primative and industrial European societies. Who had the most problem would probably be a factor of proximity to disease (s) and or treatment.
    Last edited by Old Dawg; 10-12-2010 at 05:36 PM.
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  12. #12

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    I think the conversation is doing a disservice to those that choose to maintain their traditional culture and lifestyle.

    If any a portion of the culture chooses to maintain a traditional lifestyle of being hunter/gatherers...fine, it there choice and they are free to do so and who are we to say they are making a poor decision?

    If any portion of the culture chooses to intergrate to the mainstream (and many do) it should be encouraged to the benefit of all.

    The issue is with those individuals and bands that choose to make poor choices...not the culture overall.

    There are already laws governing the provision of a child's needs including education...enforce them, as we would with any other group.

    There are already laws governing those that make bad choices...enforce them, as we would with any other group regardless of origin or background.

    Follow through on the treaties and agreements, it will take time to resolve and give and take from both sides. But enough of the pandering and excuses from both the ones making poor choices and the Governments at all levels.

    My 2 bits

    Tom

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Hinderks View Post
    I think the conversation is doing a disservice to those that choose to maintain their traditional culture and lifestyle.


    The issue is with those individuals and bands that choose to make poor choices...not the culture overall.


    My 2 bits

    Tom
    So Tom, may I suggest that if "cultures" make choices that affect the larger society such as poor medical and or educational choices per se, who should be responsible for the outcome?
    It seems we are paying and paying and paying without seeing many positive results.
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  14. #14

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    It seems some young native people are just either confused, not taught or simply do not care about their ancestors past or their roots. They seem to be caught between two cultures. Last year there was a bit of a to do about them hunting whales off the coast of B.C. They made a fuss about it being their customs/ancient right etc: then they hauled off in an big expensive speed boat to fulfil their ancient custom. One would think if it was that much of an ancient custom they would have used a canoe. Same as reserves. There has been a fair bit of publicity lately about what the chiefs on these reserves make. Some of the wages are very generous despite the rest of the reserve looking like a third world country. The Native Affairs Department needs a complete overhaul. They have been doing the same thing for decades and obviously most of it does not work.
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    Once the kids in Hobbema turn 18 they receive there " oil money" I've work with youth from there who have received anywhere from 80,000 to 250,000 dollars and this was given in one lump sum. Most of the youth I knew owed most of it to lawyers by the time they turned 18. The one's that didn't give it all to lawyers were broke by the time they were 19. Sad but how would any 18 year old deal with that much money at that age.

  16. #16

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    Old dawg...

    The way I see it your comments create more than one conversation.

    1)
    "So Tom, may I suggest that if "cultures" make choices that affect the larger society such as poor medical and or educational choices per se, who should be responsible for the outcome?"

    Well this goes long past simply the aboriginal issue...
    There are many life choices made by individuals and groups of cultures that fit this problem. So which ones should be supported and which should not?
    - Active sports persons drive health care costs with injuries.
    - Problems with overeating and lack of activity do the same.
    - Drug (including alcoholism) hammer the medical and educational system, regardless of race, creed or colour.

    Do I need to go on to make my point?

    2) I have had the pleasure of seeing several aboriginal groups that have lived traditionally in the North and have the greatest respect for them and their outstanding character. And yes children were all well schooled.

    I have had the pleasure of living on Haida land for several years and got to see a very well operated tribal band and reserve. Unless something has radically changed the Enoch also fit that bill.

    So there are great stories of success.

    On the other hand there are some tremendous failures and corruption as we have evidenced on the National news only recently and many others beyond that. The solution...deal with it. Use the legal system to punish those that deserve to be, hold them accountable.

    Peeved...I'm including the problem you describe above with the failures listed as it is a decision of the Band as to how the monies are distributed.

    But lets get off painting all of the culture as being a problem because it is not true.

    3) Celebrate the successes...Deal with the failures...use the existing legal system to deal with the corruption.

    BTW
    I've found that the kids I grew up with in the Yukon that came from very traditional cultural families had a very structured family life and solid values. The few from that time I have run into are damn fine people now.

    Once again...my 2 bits

    Tom
    Last edited by Thomas Hinderks; 10-12-2010 at 08:50 PM. Reason: numbering

  17. #17

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    BTW

    At no time have I said to "let them off the hook because of their culture" nor have I said throw more money at the problem.

    There are treaties and other obligations OUR CULTURE has made in the past that must be lived up to, but beyond that same rules for everyone.

    Tom

  18. #18

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    I have long been in favour of a complete overhaul of our nation's legal relationship with aboriginal peoples. How many more generations do we have to lose to poverty and addiction before we collectively acknowledge that the current system of segregation (without allowing individuals the rights to own and sell their land) is a complete failure in almost every instance across Canada.

    The current series of news reports on fiscal corruption by various band leaders across the country is just the latest in an endless list of problems with the current race-based system based on 19th Century attitudes.

    Preston Manning is the only mainstream politician who has ever espoused the termination of the current reserve system. Manning argued that it would be much cheaper to disband the current, race-based Dept. of Northern and Indian Affairs and just give the money directly to the aboriginal groups.

    I personally favour some sort of phased but firm pay out to natives for their historical treaty rights ... followed by a national proclamation that this payout to certain Canadians based on their race would be the last racist act by the Government of Canada. This dream would also include some much-needed refinement to our Charter of Rights that would eliminate all race-based rights and simply proclaim that all Canadians are equal under the law regardless of race.
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  19. #19

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    Today at 2 pm I ran into 3 Aboriginal gentlemen at the checkout of a North end liquor store. They just came up to me and started talking for some reason. Anyway, I didn't mind much because they were nice, despite their "grubby" appearance and the smell of Listerine on their breath.

    Then one of them started telling the cashier how they were just given $10,000 of oil money from their reserve. He also said they get this $10,000 check every 6 months. They normally live homeless, but since they just got paid, today they were buying the good liquor (instead of cheap stuff) and they were living in a hotel room until the money runs out.

    It was pretty sad that these guys are literally given free money. $10,000 isn't money you just throw away, but these guys do it twice a year. And it sounds like it's because they don't know what else to do with it.

  20. #20

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    Hopefully the residential school debacle does not pass on too to many more generations. We can only support that theory of poverty/anger/misery for so long. There are no more residential schools and it does no good to keep hashing up mistakes of the past. We don't constantly berate the Germans for WW2. We have got way past that and yet wrongs done to native people are constantly brought to the fore front by natives themselves. I think it is their problem that they keep looking to the past and it holds them prisoners. Reserves are an ill conceived idea. There is no place for them in the 21st. century.
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    good luck to anyone that wants to fix this messy problem. if i was a politician i wouldnt touch it with a ten foot pole. I do agree that the reserve system is pretty ******** but any attempt at reform would probably be met with some stiff opposition.
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  22. #22

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    Any politician who tries to take a firm stance on this and solve the problem will be committing career suicide.

    That is the biggest stigma. Evening mentioning the system is broken and needs to be abolished/changed labels you a racist and a native hater.

    I agree with a lot of the sentiment. We cannot force these people to change. We cant all the sudden go back on our word. The reserves need to stay until change comes from the inside.

    You will need to get someone born and raised on the reserves to rise above it and become a polarizing figure to speak out against the system. The natives will eventually get fed up of the poverty, of the addictions, of the corrupt chiefs. And when this happens they will realize that blaming the white man/government is not the answer, and the culture themselves will have to change to rise above.

    However I don’t think we should be so quick to dismiss just how bad ‘we/the government/the white man’ messed with the culture. Residential schools destroyed entire generations. The grandkids and great grand kids of residential survivors are still messed up because great grandma was messed up and its been passed down the line.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenn View Post
    I personally favour some sort of phased but firm pay out to natives for their historical treaty rights ... followed by a national proclamation that this payout to certain Canadians based on their race would be the last racist act by the Government of Canada. This dream would also include some much-needed refinement to our Charter of Rights that would eliminate all race-based rights and simply proclaim that all Canadians are equal under the law regardless of race.
    Agreed. The Canadian Apartheid needs to end.

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Komrade View Post
    Any politician who tries to take a firm stance on this and solve the problem will be committing career suicide.

    That is the biggest stigma. Evening mentioning the system is broken and needs to be abolished/changed labels you a racist and a native hater.

    I agree with a lot of the sentiment. We cannot force these people to change. We cant all the sudden go back on our word. The reserves need to stay until change comes from the inside.

    You will need to get someone born and raised on the reserves to rise above it and become a polarizing figure to speak out against the system. The natives will eventually get fed up of the poverty, of the addictions, of the corrupt chiefs. And when this happens they will realize that blaming the white man/government is not the answer, and the culture themselves will have to change to rise above.

    However I don’t think we should be so quick to dismiss just how bad ‘we/the government/the white man’ messed with the culture. Residential schools destroyed entire generations. The grandkids and great grand kids of residential survivors are still messed up because great grandma was messed up and its been passed down the line.
    We don't need one politician to change the system we need a whole caucus of them to change it. We expect immigrants to assimilate and yet don't push for it when it comes to natives. Immigrants assimilate and most still keep their fundamental faiths and some of their culture. It seems with natives it's 'them' and 'us'. We have not been quick to dismiss what the white man did to the natives but let's face it, how many generations are we supposed to be responsible for. If the 4th. and 5th. generation of natives still blame the residential schools for their lot in life there is definitely something wrong with that picture.
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    WHOA EVERYBODY! To state that since 1867 ( that's Confederation to you and me) all the northern half of what is refered to as 'North America' belongs to the government and people et al of Canada, that is one hell of an injustice. What? Your family has been here for a few generations and you completley own everything lock, stock, and barrel? Really. Don't blame the "reserve, residential school "thing" for too long?

    Folks, walk a mile in there mocassins. All theirs since what? 10,000 BC, maybe 20,000 - 50,000 BC? But hey, here we come along - strip them of everything, INCLUDING their children, but hey - its all their fault.

    Pull your heads out of your arces.
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  26. #26

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    White people have stolen land from other white people hundreds of years ago. (It was fairly normal and acceptable back then.) And somehow in most cases they have moved forward.

    White people enslaved black people in the US, and despite those horrors, they have somehow moved forward. The situation is by no means perfect in the US and work remains, but look at the progress that has been made even in the last 50 years.

    The topic is whether white people's current policies and laws are helping to move forward or just keeping the problem stalled. White people realistically aren't going to give Canada back. We need other policies that can somehow move forward since in my opinion the current policies are not working.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sasquatch View Post
    WHOA EVERYBODY! To state that since 1867 ( that's Confederation to you and me) all the northern half of what is refered to as 'North America' belongs to the government and people et al of Canada, that is one hell of an injustice. What? Your family has been here for a few generations and you completley own everything lock, stock, and barrel? Really. Don't blame the "reserve, residential school "thing" for too long?

    Folks, walk a mile in there mocassins. All theirs since what? 10,000 BC, maybe 20,000 - 50,000 BC? But hey, here we come along - strip them of everything, INCLUDING their children, but hey - its all their fault.

    Pull your heads out of your arces.
    Going forward...................

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    Going forward...................
    That's the point. Moving forward. If these people were willing to share their continent with us, what?, it's too much to return the favor? Share the wealth of this land with them. Its about respect. Its better to give than receive - that whole Christmas spirit thing we think we all believe in.
    I mean where else in the world do we put indigenous populations on reserves? Australia? The United States? South Africa? It's insanity.
    Any of you remember that song by Midnight Oil, "Beds are Burning"? These people still retain Nations throughout the Americas. Cultural, linquistic nations. It's a shame there treated as beggers and thieves in their own land.
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  29. #29

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    Don't blame "white people" for not sharing the wealth. Rich reserves don't share their wealth with poor reserves, either.

    It's human nature to make things better for yourself first, no matter what your background.

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sasquatch View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Glencoe View Post
    Going forward...................
    That's the point. Moving forward. If these people were willing to share their continent with us, what?, it's too much to return the favor? Share the wealth of this land with them. Its about respect. Its better to give than receive - that whole Christmas spirit thing we think we all believe in.
    I mean where else in the world do we put indigenous populations on reserves? Australia? The United States? South Africa? It's insanity.
    Any of you remember that song by Midnight Oil, "Beds are Burning"? These people still retain Nations throughout the Americas. Cultural, linguistic nations. It's a shame there treated as beggars and thieves in their own land.
    I am sure as the white man populated the Americas they bartered and made pacts to live in harmony with the native populations.The newcomers needed their expertise for all kinds of things. At some point some natives wanted to stay the way they were. Hence, 3 cultures (white/native/metis) evolved. White men and metis thrived and the natives got left behind. Before the white men came to the Americas the natives did not use the wheel. They were the only civilization that did not use it (or were aware of it). What would they be like now if explorers had never discovered America. Most nations get blundered by other nations, some more than once. It's just a progression of mankind populating the planet. No one is saying what happened was right, but we have been trying to make amends ever since. So far it's been a bottomless money pit.
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  31. #31

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    Initially, the white settlers bought complaciency from the natives by supplying them with booze. Now they buy it with paper. Same trick, the price is just a little higher. Funny thing is, one white guy writes the cheque, but the other white guy complains about the natives cashing it. I guess that it is easier to blame the victum. Q: why do they still call it a "reserve"? Get the picture?

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    ^^^ Stinger I think the joke goes something like, "Why were the Indians here first?
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    ...because they had reservations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sasquatch View Post
    WHOA EVERYBODY! To state that since 1867 ( that's Confederation to you and me) all the northern half of what is refered to as 'North America' belongs to the government and people et al of Canada, that is one hell of an injustice. What? Your family has been here for a few generations and you completley own everything lock, stock, and barrel? Really. Don't blame the "reserve, residential school "thing" for too long?

    Folks, walk a mile in there mocassins. All theirs since what? 10,000 BC, maybe 20,000 - 50,000 BC? But hey, here we come along - strip them of everything, INCLUDING their children, but hey - its all their fault.

    Pull your heads out of your arces.
    The people who were here when European settlers first arrived aren't the same ones who first trekked from Asia 10,000+ years ago. Immigration from Asia came in waves, and sometimes the newcomers displaced those that were here before them. First Nations fought each other long before European settlers arrived and their cultures glorify war and celebrate the achievements of warriors as much as any other. The losers were displaced from their land and were sometimes even victims of genocide.

    It's time to put the past in the past and move beyond racist policies. Some final reparations may be in order, but that needs to be the last time that people who live on this part of the continent are treated differently because of when their ancestors arrived here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Transplanted_Edm View Post
    The topic is whether white people's current policies and laws are helping to move forward or just keeping the problem stalled. White people realistically aren't going to give Canada back. We need other policies that can somehow move forward since in my opinion the current policies are not working.
    1) "whether white people's current policies and laws are helping to move forward or just keeping the problem stalled..." - Keeping it stalled.

    2) "White people realistically aren't going to give Canada back..." - Cannot give something back that you don't own in the first place.

    3) "...we need other policies that can somehow move forward since in my opinion the current policies are not working." - Maybe ask them ( indeginous populations) for their opnions.
    If the risk is little, the reward is little.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Don't blame "white people" for not sharing the wealth. Rich reserves don't share their wealth with poor reserves, either.

    It's human nature to make things better for yourself first, no matter what your background.
    Really? Rich reserves? What? Maybe, MAYBE 12 out of over 630 First Nations show a profit.

    But hey, thats your solution - let them fight over the scraps.
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    QUOTE]

    Before the white men came to the Americas the natives did not use the wheel. They were the only civilization that did not use it (or were aware of it). What would they be like now if explorers had never discovered America. Most nations get blundered by other nations, some more than once. It's just a progression of mankind populating the planet. No one is saying what happened was right, but we have been trying to make amends ever since. So far it's been a bottomless money pit.[/QUOTE]

    1) "Before the white men came to the Americas the natives did not use the wheel." When was the last time you saw a dream-catcher?

    2) "What would they be like now if explorers had never discovered America?" - Probably still paradise.

    3) "...but we have been trying to make amends ever since. So far it's been a bottomless money pit." - No guff but 60% of The Department of Northern and Indian Affairs annual budget is eaten by the department itself.
    If the risk is little, the reward is little.

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    Look. The majority of you viewing this thread is a good person. You give a damn and want results. Try this - go to your nearest Indian reservation, ask the people who they are and usually they'll reply Cree not Indian unless your traveling some distance from Edmonton. Get to know them, don't be afraid - they don't bite. They'll probably be wary of you too. But how do you resolve problems WITHOUT knowledge of the parametres of your argument in the first place? You have to seek it out.\

    But hey, you give a damn remember...
    If the risk is little, the reward is little.

  39. #39

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    ^We have been trying to set parameters for years but it has been a moving target.
    We live in the 21st. Century where there are things that were not even dreamt of 50 years ago (or even 25) and yet we have natives on reserves living like it's 1895. We do know their problems, we have been hearing about them for gawd knows how many years. The thing is they have to start addressing the problems themselves as only they know how too. As for your comment about the dream catcher and the wheel. Absolutely no comparison whatsoever.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

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    Well for some of your argument about the wheel is certainly up for debate ( I'm thinking of course of the canoe) - and the part of living in the 1890's (that only due to ignorance).

    But to the point " How do they address themselves these issues...?". That's the problem Gemini, it isn't up to them - it's at the discretion of the ruling Parliment That's is one hell of a handicap.

    When did the federal government become the best couse of action for anything? And you, living in Alberta no less should be able to answer that question.
    If the risk is little, the reward is little.

  41. #41

    Default

    To answer the original question 'Does Canada perpetuate aboriginal people living in poverty' it has to be a resounding 'YES', but what should they do to change it.
    Slowly dismantle the reserve system. Sounds like a reasonable plan if the natives go along with it but, I bet you a lot will not.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

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    Dismantle the reserves and be left with nothing... How about dismatle INAC, the Indian Act, and than, RESPECT the Goddamn TREATIES
    If the risk is little, the reward is little.

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    Surely that is just, but for you not realistic right? Well, it's only 2010...
    If the risk is little, the reward is little.

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    ^ i hope you find it ironic that attitude like you are displaying is why this issue will never be solved. lay off the blame game jesus.
    be offended! figure out why later...

  45. #45

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    I think if the Federal/Provincial Governments were in anyway sincere about treaties they would have been settled a long time ago. Signing treaties back in the day did no one any good. When the settlers came here there was land as far as the eye could see, plenty for everyone. It was foolish of them to start sectioning it off. White man stay here native stay there. I don't think the Feds have any intention of ever settling the treaties that were made and I think there will come a time when natives will be expected to assimilate like the rest of society. It might not be soon but I think it will happen.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

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    Quote Originally Posted by richardW View Post
    ^ i hope you find it ironic that attitude like you are displaying is why this issue will never be solved. lay off the blame game jesus.
    Rich, this isn't a blame game but to blow off facts - your better than that.
    If the risk is little, the reward is little.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    I think if the Federal/Provincial Governments were in anyway sincere about treaties they would have been settled a long time ago. Signing treaties back in the day did no one any good. When the settlers came here there was land as far as the eye could see, plenty for everyone. It was foolish of them to start sectioning it off. White man stay here native stay there. I don't think the Feds have any intention of ever settling the treaties that were made and I think there will come a time when natives will be expected to assimilate like the rest of society. It might not be soon but I think it will happen.
    Well. this argument only makes sense if you believe that "natives" cannot think for themselves. Why should they? This is their homeland! For 10,000 generations its been theirs - but according to your logic - " ah, just give it up..."

    It ain't worth giving up.
    If the risk is little, the reward is little.

  48. #48

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    [QUOTE=Sasquatch; Well. this argument only makes sense if you believe that "natives" cannot think for themselves. Why should they? This is their homeland! For 10,000 generations its been theirs - but according to your logic - " ah, just give it up..."

    It ain't worth giving up.[/QUOTE]
    How can a nation of people live in a land of millions of acres and claim it all for themselves. Were did these natives come from, the Asian Continent. Apparently walked over the Bering Straights when it was iced over. Just because they got here first is no one else allowed to follow. I could see it if maybe Canada was a tiny island and there was room for no more and land was at a premium. The settlers that came in the early 1600 hundreds multiplied and generations that came after them now call Canada their homeland. It has happened all over the world at some time or another, nations built, nations conquered, nations change.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

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    =.[/QUOTE]
    How can a nation of people live in a land of millions of acres and claim it all for themselves. Were did these natives come from, the Asian Continent. Apparently walked over the Bering Straights when it was iced over. Just because they got here first is no one else allowed to follow. I could see it if maybe Canada was a tiny island and there was room for no more and land was at a premium. The settlers that came in the early 1600 hundreds multiplied and generations that came after them now call Canada their homeland. It has happened all over the world at some time or another, nations built, nations conquered, nations change.[/QUOTE]

    Give oyur head a shake. All Indigenous people crossed the Bering Strait something like 30,000 years ago = yet we marvel at the Ancient Egyptians from only 3,000 years ago.

    Where did the white folk emigrate from into Europe 15,000yrs ago? Where the hell did the Blacks, Asians, Hispanics come from? Probably from the same Age.

    What the hell is your point? They were still here for a hell of a long time, like anyone else.

    But, should they have some input into their lives in 2010 - DAMN RIGHT!!!!
    .
    If the risk is little, the reward is little.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sasquatch View Post

    2) "What would they be like now if explorers had never discovered America?" - Probably still paradise.
    Paradise? Try living in a tent through a Prairie winter. Some paradise.

  51. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sasquatch View Post
    MAYBE 12 out of over 630 First Nations show a profit.
    Now why is that?

    Obviously the system in place isn't working. But clearly that's all white people's fault, isn't it? It sure sounds like it from the tone of your reply to my post.

  52. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sasquatch View Post
    1) "Before the white men came to the Americas the natives did not use the wheel." When was the last time you saw a dream-catcher?
    That's not a wheel.

    2) "What would they be like now if explorers had never discovered America?" - Probably still paradise.
    I don't think it was ever "paradise". Different? Absolutely. A better time for Aboriginals? Likely.

    But it's easy to romanticise about a past (before Europeans arrived) that has no written record, and which we never experienced.

  53. #53

    Default Labeled

    Well all I see here is that Gemini has prematurely labeled every Indian in this thread whether or not they are 1/8, 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, or full Indian as some kind of low life, helpless, good for nothing, who can't seem to get it together, who don't contribute, demise to our society. Well in my view you have it all wrong!

    Getting really sick and tired of every Indian being labeled in this manner. Good Grief!

    Yup I am one and no I ain't sitting around chewing on the moose hide waiting for my land claim to come through. Nope not me, I educated myself which I am still paying for ( ya a loan like every whiteman), own a business for many years now (ya another loan from a whiteman bank), saving to put the kids through college (if I don't have enough maybe another whiteman loan), I have to pay for my own medication, gst, and taxes. Ummm and yes my mother was in a residential school and yes my childhood was not the best, but I made the best of it.

    I am sure I can speak for alot of Indians out there. Many people Indian or White does it really matter are living in poverty and have been for a very long time.

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    pleased to hear of your and anyone's success and willpower to achieve regardless of ethnicity
    Still waiting for the Arlington site to be reborn .......

  55. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by kat333 View Post
    Well all I see here is that Gemini has prematurely labeled every Indian in this thread whether or not they are 1/8, 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, or full Indian as some kind of low life, helpless, good for nothing, who can't seem to get it together, who don't contribute, demise to our society. Well in my view you have it all wrong!

    Getting really sick and tired of every Indian being labeled in this manner. Good Grief!

    Yup I am one and no I ain't sitting around chewing on the moose hide waiting for my land claim to come through. Nope not me, I educated myself which I am still paying for ( ya a loan like every white man), own a business for many years now (ya another loan from a whiteman bank), saving to put the kids through college (if I don't have enough maybe another whiteman loan), I have to pay for my own medication, gst, and taxes. Ummm and yes my mother was in a residential school and yes my childhood was not the best, but I made the best of it.

    I am sure I can speak for alot of Indians out there. Many people Indian or White does it really matter are living in poverty and have been for a very long time.
    Some big assumptions being thrown around there. Please, find the line(s) where I have labeled any Indian (or anyone) a low life, good for nothing, etc: etc:. I have checked my posts and I cannot find any record of that.
    Feel free to put words into my mouth but don't expect to do it without being challenged. Were having a debate on the merits (or lack of) of the way the system has treated natives and a fair number of us think it's not working. As far as I can tell no one has labeled anyone. Your the one acting like you have a chip on your shoulder.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  56. #56

    Default

    No chip here, calling as I see it. I understand your ignorance, REALLY!

    You want to abolish the reserve system and that is going to solve all aboriginal poverty. Did you know that the majority of aboriginals do NOT even live on reserves.

    Have you ever been to a reserve?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^ and yet we have natives on reserves living like it's 1895
    Nope don't think so, while passing through Alexander reserve just outside the city did not see any indians riding by naked on horseback shooting arrows at wild buffalo, nope did not see that.

    What is your big resolution of solving the societies poverty problems as a whole? white, black, brown, green, blue you can't take their reserves away because they don't have one, what do we do here? Your the expert!

    Face it aboriginals are not the only people with poverty issues and abolishing the reserve system is not going to solve a thing.

  57. #57

    Default

    ^Wow, now your calling me an expert?. You don't know how flattering that is.
    You know, looking over these posts it seems your the only one calling people names. I'm ignorant, I'm a labeler, I'm a whiteman, I'm an expert. By the time your finished I'll not know weather to have a sh*t, shave or a haircut. As for natives, your a native why don't you add some comments to the mix instead of picking off other peoples views.You've really added nothing concrete to the discussion except blow off other people's remarks. Oh, and you never answered my question where I was supposed to say Indians were low life etc: Yes, I have been to a reserve, Enoch, twice.
    Last edited by Gemini; 16-12-2010 at 06:24 PM.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^Wow, now your calling me an expert?. You don't know how flattering that is.
    You know, looking over these posts it seems your the only one calling people names. I'm ignorant, I'm a labeler, I'm a whiteman, I'm an expert. By the time your finished I'll not know weather to have a sh*t, shave or a haircut. As for natives, your a native why don't you add some comments to the mix instead of picking off other peoples views.You've really added nothing concrete to the discussion except blow off other people's remarks. Oh, and you never answered my question where I was supposed to say Indians were low life etc: Yes, I have been to a reserve, Enoch, twice.
    You were at the casino. But at least you were on a reserve! Good for you.

    No, Really.
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    The Native issue is very complicated.

    Some points to ponder (and some knowledge for those that may be unaware):

    Reservations were initially set up by the European settlers to assimulate the Natives. Their idea was that if the Indians were localized in a group (as opposed to being more nomadic) it would be easier to assimulate them. The opposite occurred as they were able to retain their traditional ways as they were united in groups on reservations.

    Natives have been settled in North America since time immemorial. Their culture, philosophy and traditions are as old, if not older, than those from the west (Europe). Given that there were teepees set up in 1905 just below the current Legislature it hasn't been that long ago that Natives were practicing their traditions and culture in its complete form.

    Native philosophy is vastly different than westen philosophy. Views on the world are holistic as opposed to linear. Concept of time is not linear to a Native. Status in the tribe is not so much about quality than it is about quantity. The tribesman who has the most horses is the one who has the status. Animate and inanimate is something that is foreign to a western person. A rock as an animate object that can talk to you? Say it ain't so! These are just a few examples to illustrate that Native culture is vastly different than western culture and it is not so easily changed in a matter of a few generations. Jeeze, Natives didn't get the vote until the 1950's.

    Schools, medical care, etc. were provisions that were offered when the various Treaties were signed. A medicine chest evolved to today's medical services.

    Please take some time to learn about the provisions of the Treaties that were signed here in Alberta and in Saskatchewan. It is an eye-opening experience. Please take some time to learn about traditional Native culture and philosophy - it is very different than what you may have been brought up with and handed down to you from your forefathers and their forefathers.

  60. #60

    Default

    On a brighter note ** soycd **

    Your post could not have been written any better, THANK YOU! I hope more people will take the time to learn more about this topic, and you are so right it is very eye opening.

    On a duller note ** Gemini **

    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^Yes, I have been to a reserve, Enoch, twice.
    This explains a lot! at this point I feel no need to comment any further.

  61. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by kat 333 View Post
    On a brighter note ** soycd **

    Your post could not have been written any better, THANK YOU! I hope more people will take the time to learn more about this topic, and you are so right it is very eye opening.

    On a duller note ** Gemini **

    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^Yes, I have been to a reserve, Enoch, twice.
    This explains a lot! at this point I feel no need to comment any further.
    With know knowledge of why I was on the Enoch Reserve once again you are making sweeping assumptions. FYI, the only time I have been in a Casino was in Vegas, the one in West Ed and the one downtown. Your made up life for me gets more intriguing each time you post.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  62. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sasquatch View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^Wow, now your calling me an expert?. You don't know how flattering that is.
    You know, looking over these posts it seems your the only one calling people names. I'm ignorant, I'm a labeler, I'm a whiteman, I'm an expert. By the time your finished I'll not know weather to have a sh*t, shave or a haircut. As for natives, your a native why don't you add some comments to the mix instead of picking off other peoples views.You've really added nothing concrete to the discussion except blow off other people's remarks. Oh, and you never answered my question where I was supposed to say Indians were low life etc: Yes, I have been to a reserve, Enoch, twice.
    You were at the casino. But at least you were on a reserve! Good for you.

    No, Really.
    Please read ^ the above post #61.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  63. #63

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    Actually, I attended Kitaskinaw school there 1978 and 1979. I remember the principle - Stan Woloyshn, he went on to become a Cabinet minister in Klein's government. Big, imposing fella. Got strapped by him twice...ouch!

    Good memories though.
    If the risk is little, the reward is little.

  65. #65

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    ^Yes, Stan Woloyshn, now retired with a grand pension compliments of the Conservative party.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^Yes, Stan Woloyshn, now retired with a grand pension compliments of the Conservative party.
    Well, I didn't make the rules. LOL

    But I must confess - loyal conservative since 1971 when Peter Lougheed came in.

    Wasn't sure about Don Getty or that little pip from calgary Ralph Klein.

    Left Alberta in 1991. Damn!
    If the risk is little, the reward is little.

  67. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by soycd View Post
    Jeeze, Natives didn't get the vote until the 1950's.
    Source please?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercucio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by soycd View Post
    Jeeze, Natives didn't get the vote until the 1950's.
    Source please?
    Methinks it was 1961 - the first FULL year that "indians" got to vote federally.

    It was under The Right Honorable John Diefenbaker's Conservatives!

    "The Chief" was a good man.
    If the risk is little, the reward is little.

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    ...sources my friend - it's common knowledge.
    If the risk is little, the reward is little.

  70. #70

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    Ummm, "common knowledge" is not a source. Perhaps you can provide a link confirming this information?

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    Quote Originally Posted by soycd View Post
    The Native issue is very complicated.

    Some points to ponder (and some knowledge for those that may be unaware):

    Reservations were initially set up by the European settlers to assimulate the Natives. Their idea was that if the Indians were localized in a group (as opposed to being more nomadic) it would be easier to assimulate them. The opposite occurred as they were able to retain their traditional ways as they were united in groups on reservations.

    Natives have been settled in North America since time immemorial. Their culture, philosophy and traditions are as old, if not older, than those from the west (Europe). Given that there were teepees set up in 1905 just below the current Legislature it hasn't been that long ago that Natives were practicing their traditions and culture in its complete form.

    Native philosophy is vastly different than westen philosophy. Views on the world are holistic as opposed to linear. Concept of time is not linear to a Native. Status in the tribe is not so much about quality than it is about quantity. The tribesman who has the most horses is the one who has the status. Animate and inanimate is something that is foreign to a western person. A rock as an animate object that can talk to you? Say it ain't so! These are just a few examples to illustrate that Native culture is vastly different than western culture and it is not so easily changed in a matter of a few generations. Jeeze, Natives didn't get the vote until the 1950's.

    Schools, medical care, etc. were provisions that were offered when the various Treaties were signed. A medicine chest evolved to today's medical services.

    Please take some time to learn about the provisions of the Treaties that were signed here in Alberta and in Saskatchewan. It is an eye-opening experience. Please take some time to learn about traditional Native culture and philosophy - it is very different than what you may have been brought up with and handed down to you from your forefathers and their forefathers.


    As an aside to this ALL Canadian Citizens fall within the boundary of treaties!

    Damn eh?
    If the risk is little, the reward is little.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercucio View Post
    Ummm, "common knowledge" is not a source. Perhaps you can provide a link confirming this information?

    The link is your local library . I'm not your professor - research it - it's there!
    If the risk is little, the reward is little.

  73. #73

    Default

    This is from the CBC archives web site:

    Diefenbaker and the native vote
    • Aboriginals — known largely as "Indians" at the time — were actually given the right to vote at Confederation (1867), but it was conditional. They had to give up their treaty rights and Indian status in order to get the vote. Very few natives were willing to give up their status and treaty rights, however, just to vote in a political system that was still very alien to them.

    Not quite what you said...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercucio View Post
    Ummm, "common knowledge" is not a source. Perhaps you can provide a link confirming this information?

    Following the end of the Second World War, laws concerning First Nations in Canada began to change, albeit slowly. The federal prohibition of potlatch and Sun Dance ceremonies ended in 1951. Provincial governments began to accept the right of Indigenous people to vote. In June 1956, section 9 of the Citizenship Act was amended to grant formal citizenship to Status Indians and Inuit, retroactively as of January 1947.
    In 1960, First Nations people received the right to vote in federal elections. By comparison, Native Americans in the United States had been allowed to vote since the 1920s.

    Link
    Last edited by andy8244; 07-01-2011 at 01:00 AM.

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    Just type "Canadian Indians getting the vote", into lougle, oops sorry, Google. Just finished watching "Hot Tub Time Machine".
    If the risk is little, the reward is little.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercucio View Post
    This is from the CBC archives web site:

    Diefenbaker and the native vote
    • Aboriginals — known largely as "Indians" at the time — were actually given the right to vote at Confederation (1867), but it was conditional. They had to give up their treaty rights and Indian status in order to get the vote. Very few natives were willing to give up their status and treaty rights, however, just to vote in a political system that was still very alien to them.

    Not quite what you said...
    Actually Mercucio I should have said allowed to vote WITHOUT penality - which was of course if an Indian wanted to vote he had to be disenfranchised first. That is, surrender all status and treaty rights.

    Not as far off as u think methinks.
    Last edited by Sasquatch; 07-01-2011 at 01:03 AM. Reason: sp
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sasquatch View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^Wow, now your calling me an expert?. You don't know how flattering that is.
    You know, looking over these posts it seems your the only one calling people names. I'm ignorant, I'm a labeler, I'm a whiteman, I'm an expert. By the time your finished I'll not know weather to have a sh*t, shave or a haircut. As for natives, your a native why don't you add some comments to the mix instead of picking off other peoples views.You've really added nothing concrete to the discussion except blow off other people's remarks. Oh, and you never answered my question where I was supposed to say Indians were low life etc: Yes, I have been to a reserve, Enoch, twice.
    You were at the casino. But at least you were on a reserve! Good for you.

    No, Really.
    Please read ^ the above post #61.

    Sorry buddy, I was just teasing.
    If the risk is little, the reward is little.

  78. #78
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    The reserves need to be slit in two:

    Specialized municipalities, with enshrined specific native cultural character, but open to residence and land ownership by all Canadians.

    Birthright corporations, holding traditional use lands, and wilderness & conservation areas. Reserve lands not in towns or in under cultivation would be owned by these corporations, additional crown lands could be added as the incentive towards a plan like this. These corporations would also control settlement and resource money.

    All in all, it would be a lot like Nunavut and the Kitikmeot corporation (and 2 others), but instead of a territory, they would be municipalities within the provinces.

  79. #79

    Default

    http://www.albertalocalnews.com/redd...113069804.html

    I don't think stories like this help anyones cause. It should be interesting to see how it plays out. This sort of think happens between the U S border and Ontario border all the time. The natives should not be allowed to have duty free cigarettes. It's not setting a very good example to their young ones.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

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    I think that cigarette bust in Hobbema a couple of days ago stinks, especially when the Chief (Carolyn Buffalo) was in on the purchase. The worst part is that it hurts her own people.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  81. #81

    Default

    7 million dollars worth of cigarettes sitting in a quonset hut. That's one heck of a lot of money. Just how rich are some of these reserves?. Who keeps track of all this money. How much does the government know about this?. It seems obvious there are exceedingly rich reserves and exceedingly poor reserves. Something should be done to share the wealth.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  82. #82

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    I think we are mixing the issue of crime with some of the other issues that relate specifically to aboriginals.

    There is crime in every area, every society, every ethnicity. Nobody should be surprised that some people on the reserve in Hobbema were involved in crime. It's sad and of course I don't advocate crime but it still happens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Cat View Post
    The worst part is that it hurts her own people.


    Really? No, it hurt her and the people involved.

    Because Bernie Madoff makes billions from a ponzi scheme - that tarnishes all "white" people?

    No.

    Because that indian screwed up - only tarnishes herself. Stop generalizing please.
    Last edited by Sasquatch; 09-01-2011 at 05:14 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ...It seems obvious there are exceedingly rich reserves and exceedingly poor reserves. Something should be done to share the wealth.
    But wait - isn't that 'socialism', maybe even communism.

    Out of 630+ reserves perhaps a dozen show a profit...

    Somethings whacked.
    If the risk is little, the reward is little.

  85. #85
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    Some of you believe that Canada should make indigenous peoples equal citizens under the law just as yourselves.

    Why should they?

    Be at the whim of Parliament? Remember reserves, BNA Act, Indian Act, Residential schools, the churches?

    Do as the dominant society wants you to do...

    Remember Big Brother?

    Why would they want to give up on themselves?
    If the risk is little, the reward is little.

  86. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sasquatch View Post
    Some of you believe that Canada should make indigenous peoples equal citizens under the law just as yourselves.

    Why should they?

    Be at the whim of Parliament? Remember reserves, BNA Act, Indian Act, Residential schools, the churches?

    Do as the dominant society wants you to do...

    Remember Big Brother?

    Why would they want to give up on themselves?
    If people don't want to be citizens of Canada that's OK but they shouldn't expect to get any or all of the benefits that come with being a citizen of Canada. In other words if you live in a very remote area far from any other population centres there should be no expectation that modern world class health care can be available in a cost effective way. Similarly for educational opportunities, transportation links, economic opportunities, access to goods and services, etc.

    There are many, many benefits. People from all over the world go through great hardship to bring their families here, even when they don't speak the language and aren't familiar with the general culture and customs. They do this because they know that Canadian citizenship is a huge benefit to the lifestyle and prosperity and hapiness of their families.

  87. #87

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    So what is the point of the Reserve?

  88. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by RRH View Post
    So what is the point of the Reserve?
    That, my friend, is the million dollar question.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

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    Some of you need a Canadian history class. Reserves were created to keep indians in their place so that immigrants from Europe could - in effect - set up shop without disturbance.

    It wasn't them that created that mess, it was us. But of course why worry about fact?

    And before anyone hollers, "Oh that was the past and this is today...", those 'laws' are still in the books. Come to think about it - when was ANY Canadian election about indigenous rights, or moral/ethical questions asked of them regarding their state of affairs. No sir-we-bob! Cannot recall once. And its what? 144 years since confederation. Treat a population - for so long - as if they don't exist, well, don't be shocked that problems happen.

    "Does Canada perpetuate aboriginal people living in poverty?"

    Yes. What can be done? Treat them with RESPECT, and BE JUST. And maybe than we can move beyond policies which keep a segment of the population down with one arm while holding another up with the other.
    If the risk is little, the reward is little.

  90. #90

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    I think one reason nobody has ever broached the subject of changing laws is because it's an "industry" for many people, both caucasian and non-caucasian.

    Make money as a consultant/activist/community organizer/band chief/build an academic career around studying the situation, etc. etc.

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    I believe that is true. Look at the Department of Indian and Northern Development for a good example of this ^^^^.
    If the risk is little, the reward is little.

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    And by the way Transplanted_EDM, quite the thread you created...
    If the risk is little, the reward is little.

  93. #93
    j_chmilar
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    in my job, I see on a daily basis how the vast majority of the Native community in our city/province choose to live their lives.In my opinion, They don't live. They are all on some sort of Social Assistance, doing absolutely nothing to contribute to society, or achieve anything better for themselves. They are completely complacent, and continue to pursue the terrible quality of living that they seem to enjoy. They expect everything to be handed to them because of past injustices done to them hundreds of years ago by our ancestors.

    While I agree that there were some great horrors we put them through, at what point do we stop giving them millions in handouts, and demand them to be productive members of society? Our government has given them land, and money, in what I would assume was/is an attempt to give them the what was needed to create a living and thriving community.

    Where is the heritage and history being taught to the new generation? Parents and grandparents need to get over the injustices of previous generations and stop preaching/teaching hate to the new generations. The new generation should be taking a stand against the hate, and want more for themselves and their futures. Obviously it's not realistic that natives should be hunting/gathering/praying/living off the land but where is the pride??? They rant and rave about how we took away their culture, but how are gang shootings, poverty, social handouts, part of their history? They used to be a self-reliant people.

    Instead of segregating the population of all natives onto reserves, they should be integrated into society and forced to take their lives into their own hands. Maybe if they had to rely on themselves, many of the issues that we see now would start to disappear. self reliance is a beautiful thing.

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    And not one of your points u can back up with a single piece of empirical evidence.

    U sir, are a bigot.
    If the risk is little, the reward is little.

  95. #95
    j_chmilar
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    Sasquatch, I am of Native heritage, also not a dude. I wish i could show you all the documents, and share details of my first hand knowledge and experience that i have. My opinion is based on fact, not racism. I am not a bigot. This would prevent me from working with the clientele that i do. I have in no way attacked you , so please refrain from doing so to me.

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    I didn't generalize - YOU did.

    I do not know what "experience" you have with "native" people but I know what experience I have with Anishnawbe Peoples.

    Some are good, some mediocre, and some bad. Just like any other population of ANY people of this planet.

    No more, no less.
    Last edited by Sasquatch; 10-01-2011 at 10:27 PM. Reason: sp
    If the risk is little, the reward is little.

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    Lets look at this from another angle. Why did Hong Kong, Dubai and to a lesser extent Macao become wealthy?

    The answer is no taxes, because they didn't have taxes businesses moved there or started their, of course trade routes and population comes into play. But when you consider an Indian owned company, hiring Indians working and living on the reserve pays no taxes that alone is about a 30% advantage over other companies.

    There is no reason why they should be poor except personal choices like alcohol and drugs, they really should be far richer then their neighbors, that is if the band is properly run.

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    Montana First Nation files lawsuit over seized cigarettes


    By Nathan Liewicki, edmontonjournal.com February 18, 2011 10:02 PM


    Read more: http://www.edmontonjournal.com/Monta...950/story.html
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Cat View Post
    Montana First Nation files lawsuit over seized cigarettes


    By Nathan Liewicki, edmontonjournal.com February 18, 2011 10:02 PM


    Read more: http://www.edmontonjournal.com/Monta...950/story.html
    ...so what happened over that?
    If the risk is little, the reward is little.

  100. #100

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    ^I think it is still going through the court system.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

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