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Thread: Which Fighter Jet should Canada choose?

  1. #1401

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    Ustauk

    That is one of many useful options for CF-18 and Super Hornets as (eventually) newer aircraft are phased in ... but there are other uses.

    Fighter trainers is the first I would think of ... right now we use the subsonic "Hawk" which is also getting long in the tooth ... overhauled/adapter CF-18s/Super Hornets would be a better transition aircraft.

    Home defense is another that aircraft like the CF-18 could be overhauled and tailored to. Patrol, observation, fast reaction search and rescue with underwing SCAT packs.

    These types of adaptations would reduce hours on the "Next Gen" fighters, improve our overall defense capability and in the case of the Super Hornets they will remain viable bomb trucks for aq long long time to come.

    65 New fighters is no where near enough for a country the size of Canada ... this is one way to improve the situation and create Canadian jobs and technology.

    IMO

  2. #1402

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    ^
    Agreed, Thomas. There's plenty of life and uses left for both the original Hornet and new Super Hornet airframes, the Growler being just one. We should definitely get tandem two seaters for both training and Growler conversion; as of now the F35 doesn't even have a two seat variant for training (though the Israelis may develop a two seat variant). Plus the Tudors the Snowbirds fly are getting up their in age; I can see them getting first Hornet, and then Super Hornets for the team as replacments. There's even a tanker variant of the Superhornet; you could use that to extend loiter time of other Superhornets on patrol, or have them act as fuel trucks for stealth mode/internal store F35s to top up to full before going into a hot zone.

    According to Tacairnet.com, the U.S. Navy is planning to divest itself of its remaining Hornets and oldest Superhornets, and wants to order several new squadrons of Superhornets. Reuters says the Marines will be getting the Hornets, but Tacairnet speculates the older Superhornets could be refit and sent our way. Whether we're getting refurbished Superhornets or piggy-backing new ones on the Navy's order, the price of our eighteen fighters could be less then has previously speculated. And having the Navy running numbers of both fighters will give us a partner to develop doctrine for jointly running the F35 and Super Hornet.
    Last edited by Ustauk; 22-12-2016 at 04:25 PM.

  3. #1403

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    Ustauk

    We seem to be on the same page.

    I have also thought that if we are adding Super Hornets they should be 2 seaters with the ability to switch to Growlers and acting as advanced trainers for their replacement.

    I wouldn't recommend using the Hornets for the Snowbirds though. Too expensive to operate and using smaller jets lets them keep larger formations and keep the show in front of and close in to the crowd.
    Something they are absolutely the best at. IMO

    Good call on Super Hornets as tankers though ... forgot they have the add on kit and in that function they would work well as range extenders tactically for their replacements and for Northern patrols if kept on (with maybe some CF-18 single seaters) as a home defense fighter.

    T

  4. #1404

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    Thomas, any thoughts on the Textron Scorpion for the Snowbirds? Its still under development, but it uses off the shelf parts, and the size seems a good fit.

  5. #1405
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    Trump is, if nothing else, very entertaining. I love his tweet from yesterday:

    Based on the tremendous cost and cost overruns of the Lockheed Martin F-35, I have asked Boeing to price-out a comparable F-18 Super Hornet!
    It would be hilarious to see the USAF being forced to accept naval fighters into their squadrons.
    Did my dog just fall into a pothole???

  6. #1406

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    ^he is doing what someone should have done years ago, both with Lockheed (f35) and Boeing (Air Force one). Drive for a proper contract with a more manageable scope. He called out how government workers give favourable contracts in the knowledge one day they will get jobs at those companies they are giving the contracts too. Its much the same way city councillors approve totally uneccesary new suburbs in cities with empty cores, knowing it will one day get them a nice pay back job at the real estate developer.

  7. #1407

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ustauk View Post
    Thomas, any thoughts on the Textron Scorpion for the Snowbirds? Its still under development, but it uses off the shelf parts, and the size seems a good fit.
    More important than the Snowbirds it may be a good candidate to replace both the Harvard2 and the Hawk as an advanced trainer ... which according to tradition would lead to it's usse with the Snowbirds.

    But this part of our conversation leads to a great point ... so many of our aviation our DND aviation assets are aging out. The above mentioned trainers, the Aurora, the Dash 8s in use as both NAV trainers and SAR aircraft as well as the helicopter trainers and that is before we look at ships, land based equipment assets and the overall small size (vs area and population) of our armed forces.

    The whole system is is dire need or an overhaul and clear long term direction or we will be hitting a series of crisis in the not very distant future.

    IMO

  8. #1408

    Talking Bulgaria and India are buying new fighter jets — and unlike Canada, it won’t take them 10 years

    Its not about what the military needs, its about not embarrassing Trudeau, that's why the competition is delayed...

    India and Bulgaria have launched competitions to buy new fighter jets, but unlike Canada they expect the process to take just a couple of years.

    The speedy purchase of much-needed jets for those countries has raised questions about why it will take the Canadian government more than 10 years to replace the military’s aging fleet of CF-18s.

    India announced Tuesday it expects to choose a supplier for 200 planes and sign a deal by 2020, with a request for bids going out in 2018. In December, Bulgaria announced it was seeking bids for up to eight jets, with more to follow. The winning bid for that program will be selected in 2018.

    By contrast, the Liberal government expects it will take until the end of the 2020s — or perhaps even until 2032 — before it can acquire replacements for its CF-18s.

    ...

    Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has previously said his government would not buy the F-35 stealth fighter that the Conservatives wanted, claiming last year the F-35 was not working. But U.S. military units are now using the F-35s and Canadian government insiders concede there is concern in the Liberal ranks the plane could win the competition and be selected the best replacement for the CF-18s — a result that would be very embarrassing for Trudeau, they add.
    http://news.nationalpost.com/news/ca...-them-10-years

  9. #1409

    Default Superhornets to cost as much as F35

    So, it seems that the Superhornets the Liberals are sole sourcing, a plane designed almost 30 years ago now, may in fact cost more than a state of the art 5th generation F35:

    A cost breakdown of the Super Hornets is provided in U.S. Department of Defence estimates:

    ■The base price for a Super Hornet, according to U.S. Department of Defence 2015 budget estimates, was $85 million ($65 million US) per aircraft.

    ■On top of that, there is what's known as government-furnished equipment, which can be anything from engines to radar and other electronics, depending on what the air force says it needs. That could add $26.2 million ($20 million US) per fighter — although those fees can sometimes be negotiated.

    ■Washington also levies what is known as a foreign military sales charge of about 3.5 per cent, but other costs for research and development could boost U.S. service charges to as high 11 per cent, according to Pentagon records.

    "What an airplane costs depends upon configuration, timing of deliveries and quantities. The U.S. government documents are a good reflection," said Boeing's Gillian.

    That all means the final cost of each individual Super Hornet could range from $115 million ($88 million US) to $123 million ($94 million US), bringing a total purchase price of between $1.9 billion ($1.5 billion US) and $2.1 billion ($1.6 billion US) for 18 jets.

    ...

    Lockheed Martin said last week it was confident it would soon get the price of an F-35 down to $111 million ($85 million US) per plane. Canada would not have to pay the foreign military sales charge because it has already contributed toward the development of the project.

    Much of the public debate in Canada has revolved around the enormous cost of the F-35. In fact, the Liberal government's distaste for the stealth fighter was formed partly by the former Conservative government's refusal to be more transparent about the price tag.

    Perry said it would be ironic if Trump succeeded in quickly driving down the cost to the point where both fighters were competitively priced.

    "If Trump is able to gets some extra savings out of Lockheed … my guess is you're looking at a 10 per cent cost difference [between the Super Hornet and the F-35]," he said.
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/figh...nets-1.3956306

    Where is the outrage from the left about supposedly "un-needed" $100m jets now that Mr Selfie has decided its a good idea?
    Last edited by moahunter; 31-01-2017 at 11:57 AM.

  10. #1410

    Default F35 dominates at Red Flag

    Scores a 15:1 kill ratio. Oh well, losing 15 of our F18's and superhornets (rough equivalent of F16) to each F35, a plane that now costs about the same as a Superhornet, isn't that bad is it?

    Over 110 sorties, the fleet of 13 F-35A jets (the Air Force-dedicated version of the fighter) posted a simulated kill ratio of 15:1, according to Aviation Week, meaning only one blue aircraft was shot down for every 15 reds the F-35 threw to the ground.

    The sadists running the drill went hard after the newcomer, using advanced tactics and targeting and jamming technologies, and deploying extra “enemy” F-16s (in adversary-appropriate camouflage). No match, apparently, for the plane’s advanced data-gathering and sensing technologies (like a $400,000 helmet). That didn’t just boost the airmen in the F-35s—pilots flying F-22 Raptors and older F-18s and F-16s enjoyed improved situational awareness, too. Defense News reported that the F-35s stuck around after unloading all their weapons, so other aircraft could crib data from their scanners.
    https://www.wired.com/2017/02/troubl...hest-test-yet/
    Last edited by moahunter; 10-02-2017 at 09:26 AM.

  11. #1411

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    Since we're cherry-picking the article...
    "Even if it had flunked Red Flag, the plane would have lived on..... because it has safely reached “too big to fail” territory."

    Nice having that safety net.
    He who posteth too much, should moveth out of his parents basement and get a life.

  12. #1412

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    and this.

    “The simulation didn’t prove that it’s the ultimate dogfighter or has the most powerful missiles, far from it. But it proved that when everything is working it’s a formidable system.”

    Formidable isn't ultimate. Proven time and time again in military. eg. Ford class carrier doesn't spell the end of Nimitz class.
    Last edited by bpeters; 10-02-2017 at 02:44 PM.
    He who posteth too much, should moveth out of his parents basement and get a life.

  13. #1413

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    Not a single missile was launched so the whole thing is just a simulation. What is the probability of a kill? The techno geeks have a field day but the only real test is a shooting war. In combat conditions, how many of the F-35's can they keep in the air with all the high tech stuff operating? What level of electronic jamming by the enemy and the effects of a possible EM pulse from a nuclear detonation will affect the fighter and weapon systems?
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  14. #1414

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    Laurie Hawn is very good at not pulling punches and in his latest review of the SuperHornet addition, while polite, has created enemies and cost him personally.

    I like Laurie and having chatted with him many times we agree on most things regarding Canada's air force, numbers, needs etc. Pretty much everything except the F-35 ... he is a huge advocate, I still think it's the wrong solution.

    That said here is his lasted letter on facebook re: the Superhornet sole source and frankly I agree with most of it (except the F-35). He has hit all the issues, offered a solution I was not aware of and brought to attention once again the questions surrounding the "capability gap".

    He will be on Ryan Jespersen's show on CHED tomorrow morning as well.

    This is worth a read if you have been following this thread ... again I appreciate Laurie pulling back the covers on the NFA issue and in spite of personal cost the fact he has stood his ground.

    https://www.facebook.com/laurie.hawn...87102452165792

    IMO

  15. #1415

    Default Liberals admit ‘interim’ Super Hornet jets may only fly for 12 years, despite costing billions

    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Not a single missile was launched so the whole thing is just a simulation.
    That's how jets are evaluated outside of actual combat, through real life combat simulations with the planes flying. I expect the F35 will be very similar to the F15, the first real fighter that effectively relied on electronics / missiles ahead of dogfighting (and the technology has moved a long way since it entered into service), once in combat it will be devastating. Its interesting that the F35 planes even massively improved the performance of prior generation jets which would tap into their sensors. The price has come down too, its comparable in price to a superhornet (an old design Naval bomb truck), and will only get cheaper as the base development locks down even more and production ramps up. But unlike superhornet, which might at best have one more production run, its going to be continually updated and enahanced for the next 60 years, it won't only fly for 12 years.

    http://news.nationalpost.com/news/ca...sting-billions

    The Super Hornet jets the Liberal government is spending billions of dollars to purchase could be flying for as little as 12 to 15 years before they are taken out of service.

    There had been some suggestions by analysts and, privately by military officers, that the Super Hornets could be kept flying, along with the new aircraft the government intends to purchase as a replacement for the CF-18s in the late 2020s.

    But the operational life of the Super Hornets, expected to arrive sometime after 2019, will be limited, unlike the current CF-18s that have been flying for more than three decades, the Liberals confirm.

    ...

    The Defence Research and Development Canada report recommended against the purchase of such “bridging” aircraft to deal with gaps in capability. “The costs involved with bridging options make them unsuitable for filling capability gaps in the short term,” according to the report. “Any short-term investment results in disproportionately high costs during the bridging period.”
    Last edited by moahunter; 14-02-2017 at 02:57 PM.

  16. #1416

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    its going to be continually updated and enahanced for the next 60 years


    I love these comments ... 60 years ... Bull Shizen.

    Air frame lives are based on flight cycles and hours of use. All modern aircraft have a useful life, yes even airliners and military aircraft. Sure you can stretch air frame lives to an extent (as has been done with every fighter Canada has had since the Sabre) but 60 years ... gimme a break.
    dom
    60 years from now none of the current F-35s (including those delivered in the next 10 years) will be around so can we quit with the 60 year crap. You might get 30 ... tad more if the hours are kept down, but with a projected 65 aircraft to cover what took 130+ not long ago good luck. It is far more likely that the hours will get burned up far faster as so few aircraft attempt to cover ALL of the domestic and international deployment demands.

    IMO

  17. #1417

    Default F-35 Will Fly Until 2070 — Six Years Longer Than Planned

    ^http://www.defensenews.com/story/def...nned/82224282/

    WASHINGTON — The F-35 joint strike fighter will fly until 2070, reflecting a decision by the US armed services to extend the operational life of the fleet by six years.

    All three services that operate the F-35 — the US Air Force, US Navy and US Marine Corps — increased the total flight hours for the fleet by 1.6 million, F-35 Joint Program Office Chief Lt. Gen. Christopher Bogdan told reporters March 24 at the Pentagon. Of the total, the Air Force added 1.3 million flight hours, while the Navy added 300,000 flight hours, according to the JPO.

    The Air Force extended the life of each F-35A jet by two years, adding six years in total to the program, according to the JPO. This effectively means the JSF will fly until 2070, instead of 2064 as planned.

    This extension translated into an addition of $45 billion in operating and support (O&S) costs to the 2015 estimate, masking a 2 to 4 percent drop in real O&S costs, Bogdan stressed. Without this extension, F-35 life cycle O&S costs would have decreased by about $22 billion from the 2014 estimate, he said
    And even if only half that, a lot better than the 12 years from the multi billion dollar Superhornet deal.
    Last edited by moahunter; 14-02-2017 at 04:31 PM.

  18. #1418

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    60 years or 600

    It's salesmen talk.

    Everyone will be dead who were involved in the original order.
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  19. #1419

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    Yeah right Moa ... spreading capitalization and budget costs.

    Lets try real world, the CF-18

    Total purchased 138
    In service now 76 (functional with upgrades and life extensions)
    Lost in service 15 (approx from ejection records) http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/A..._18_hornet.htm
    out of service 47 ((rotated out or timed out being used for parts)

    Now the CF-18 was first deployed to 410 squadron late 1982, there were delays after that which kept full deployment back for a couple years (exactly how long depends on source I am listing a middle number) so lets say 1984-1985 for full deployment.

    So if they reach the projected 2025 that's 41 years. To get that there have been 3 life extensions (if memory serves), multiple upgrades and I'd hate to guess how many overhauls.

    Even with that the only way we have made it this far is because of the rotation schedule that was started in the 90's (30-40% of the fleet was kept parked and rotated in/out to keep total ops hours down), and still we have 47 now permanently parted due to exceeding even the life extended hours and fatigue. Other than a few to museums the rest are being used for spares.

    The F-35 will not have the luxury of the rotation program with only 65 aircraft so it will be time ex operational hours much faster based on the current highly, highly reduced operational schedule.

    Now lets consider operational demands ... even modern fighters have a tough time meeting a 70% operational schedule.
    With the highly depleted CF-18 fleet that means at any time there are only 53 in service total
    Of that 53 we seem pretty consistent in having around 12 on overseas deployment, so that leaves 41 for domestic duty.

    41 aircraft to cover the 2nd largest country by area in the world and the longest coastline if I recall correctly ... talk about a totally inadequate fighter force.

    Now how does it look with the purchase of 65 F-35s
    45 in service at any given time
    12 deployed over seas
    33 left for domestic duty

    What a friggin joke ... doesn't matter what we buy.

    If we actually want to have some reasonable ability to patrol our borders, meet our NATO/NORAD commitments and currency/training requirements we need 3 to 4 times what we are talking about or why the heck are we bothering. It's not the fault of the personnel ... while a tiny force among the best in the world flying old iron.

    If getting adequate numbers means a mix of some 5th gen for deployment with NATO and to meet NORAD requirements and older 4th gen for domestic service and advanced trainers so be it.

    Otherwise quit kidding ourselves and save the money.

    This has become quite sickening and we have become a joke as an airforce. We are having a heck of time retaining pilots/technician, gee I wonder why?

    IMO It's 1936-1937 all over again only the world is much more dangerous.
    Last edited by Thomas Hinderks; 14-02-2017 at 05:29 PM.

  20. #1420

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    Thank you Thomas for pouring cold water on moahunter.

    You make a clear statement of the reality of this farce. Military hardware is becoming so unaffordable and so high tech that they spend more time being serviced and being upgraded than being useful. The defense contractors are like ink jet printer salesmen and know that the real money is in the parts and service over the decades.

    Even the United States are not replacing their fleet of B-52's until 2040 or beyond even though they will be 80 years old by then.
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 14-02-2017 at 06:50 PM.
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  21. #1421

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Thank you Thomas for pouring cold water on moahunter.

    You make a clear statement of the reality of this farce. Military hardware is becoming so unaffordable and so high tech that they spend more time being serviced and being upgraded than being useful. The defense contractors are like ink jet printer salesmen and know that the real money is in the parts and service over the decades.

    Even the United States are not replacing their fleet of B-52's until 2040 or beyond even though they will be 80 years old by then.
    Thanks Edmonton PRT

    But I don't completely agree with the affordability part ... (not directed at Edmonton PRT directly)

    Our commitment to NATO is and has been since as far back as I can remember ... to spend 2% of our GDP on our own military per year so we can be prepared in the event of conflict.

    2% of 1.82 Trillion USD (2013) or $36,400,000,000 USD or $47,684,000,000 CDN ... I think I have the math right

    We actually spend less than 1/2 of that and that is only because of the spending pushes in the Harper era.

    That is correct Canada fails to meet it's agreed on NATO commitment by 1/2, 50% or another way... we fail by half. Some commitment.

    If we actually spent what we had agreed to MOST of our shortfalls in equipment, infrastructure and personnel would not exist.

    Adding to the problem is we have been doing this for decades and the problem is now critical in many areas. Talk about a National Infrastructure deficit and International commitment embarrassment.

    And ya wonder why we have a problem. (not you personally Edmonton PRT)

    IMO
    Last edited by Thomas Hinderks; 14-02-2017 at 07:25 PM.

  22. #1422

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    Well seems we do need to get our act together on our air force and all the other branches.

    http://ottawacitizen.com/news/nation...fence-spending

    Seems the free ride is over and we will need to be much more responsible for our own defense.

    IMO

  23. #1423

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Hinderks View Post
    Now how does it look with the purchase of 65 F-35s
    45 in service at any given time
    12 deployed over seas
    33 left for domestic duty

    What a friggin joke ... doesn't matter what we buy.
    I never said 65 was the right number, I'd like to see us buy a lot more. I think its pretty stupid though to buy a handful of Superhornets, it doesn't make any sense at all, its just a political decision. It will be a highly expensive (because small order) acquisition of a plane on one of its last production runs, if not its last. If Liberals think Superhornet, a Naval bomb truck, is the right aircraft for Canada, then lets go out and buy a proper order of them, order 100 of them or more. I'd much rather we purchase though, the plane that the US Airforce is going to be flying, and upgrading, for the next 60 years, the plane that just showed a 15-1 kill ratio in real world flight exercises, for what is a very similar price.
    Last edited by moahunter; 27-02-2017 at 01:30 PM.

  24. #1424

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    I know the US Navy is sending a number of hits Superhornets for refit. I wonder if the Liberal's plan is to flog a "deal" on the refit fighters, while the Navy gets new-build fighters straight from Boeing. I just hope if that is the case, its not the same kind of "deal" as we got on the Brit's Oberon class subs

  25. #1425

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    I never said 65 was the right number, I'd like to see us buy a lot more. I think its pretty stupid though to buy a handful of Superhornets,
    After running the numbers, looking at the fighter forces deployed by much, much smaller countries to cover land mass and coast lines a mere fraction of Canada's the whole process is a joke and pointless.

    Either we want a fighter force or we do not, either we actually intend to meet our commitments or we do not. Period, everything else is a waste of time, pointless and embarrassing.

    IMO shut it down
    Last edited by Thomas Hinderks; 27-02-2017 at 07:52 PM.

  26. #1426

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    So, it seems we are seeing the real reason for this token 18 aircraft, and super expensive, Superhornet purchase. It wasn't to acquire the right plane for the Canadian military, it was to provide leverage if Boeing went after Bombardier. Its not about the right aircraft, or the mission, its just about politics, which is the long sad history of the Liberal party and the military.

    On Thursday, Canadian Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland said the allegations are unhelpful to ongoing trade negotiations.

    "The aerospace industries of Canada and the United States are highly integrated and support good, middle class jobs on both sides of the border," the minister said.

    "We strongly disagree with the U.S. Department of Commerce's decision."

    Freeland's statement also added that Ottawa is now "reviewing current military procurement that relates to Boeing."

    Military officials and defence industry representatives contacted by The Canadian Press on Thursday were united in assuming that Freeland's warning related to Ottawa's planned purchase of 18 Boeing Super Hornets to temporarily replace its aging fleet of CF-18s, a deal that could be worth up to $2 billion.
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/bomb...tawa-1.4123209

  27. #1427

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    So, it seems we are seeing the real reason for this token 18 aircraft, and super expensive, Superhornet purchase. It wasn't to acquire the right plane for the Canadian military, it was to provide leverage if Boeing went after Bombardier. Its not about the right aircraft, or the mission, its just about politics, which is the long sad history of the Liberal party and the military.

    On Thursday, Canadian Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland said the allegations are unhelpful to ongoing trade negotiations.

    "The aerospace industries of Canada and the United States are highly integrated and support good, middle class jobs on both sides of the border," the minister said.

    "We strongly disagree with the U.S. Department of Commerce's decision."

    Freeland's statement also added that Ottawa is now "reviewing current military procurement that relates to Boeing."

    Military officials and defence industry representatives contacted by The Canadian Press on Thursday were united in assuming that Freeland's warning related to Ottawa's planned purchase of 18 Boeing Super Hornets to temporarily replace its aging fleet of CF-18s, a deal that could be worth up to $2 billion.
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/bomb...tawa-1.4123209
    I think the only message the Government of Canada is trying to get across clearly to the US here is if they want to start trade wars, they might lose too. Total trade between Canada and the US is fairly balanced, so if they take punitive action on something we can got tit for tat. They might not like it, but I think eventually they will get the message.

    I don't think the election of Trump or Boeing's action was anticipated when they originally considered the purchase of the Superhornets.

  28. #1428
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    More problems for entire F-35 fleet due to oxygen problems


    http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/09/politi...ems/index.html
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  29. #1429

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    There has been interesting speculation that the German's might dump the Eurofighter for the F35. It seems the Eurofighter is just costing too much to modernize / make useful - if you don't have enough volume with an aircraft, it is a cash hog. Interesting article in BBC - which matches what I have written, air dominance isn't today about how fast, or how aerodynamic, its all about electronic sensors / detection ranges - guns account for less than 5% of kills, and most kills are BVR now:

    Early air combat during World War One involved lining up an enemy aircraft in the plane's sights and firing machine guns at propeller-powered aircraft flying at relatively low speeds.

    Despite technological advancements, the basic principle remained the same for half a century.

    But in the modern era, the human eye was quickly replaced. From 1965-1969, guns accounted for 65% of air-to-air kills, the CSBA says.

    But between 1990 and 2002, they accounted for just 5% of kills - with the rest carried out by some kind of missile.

    "Modern air combat is almost entirely decided by situational awareness [from radar and other sensors] and missile technology," Bronk says. "All recent air-to-air kills between fast jets were one-sided, quick affairs."

    Most kills in the last two decades have been against enemy planes too far away to see with the human eye - which means technology often trumps pilot skill.

    That gives the US a clear advantage.

    It spends more on military technology than any other nation, has more aircraft carriers and deploys specialist ships with sensor arrays to aid its aerial fleet.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-40327934

  30. #1430
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    There has been interesting speculation that the German's might dump the Eurofighter for the F35. It seems the Eurofighter is just costing too much to modernize / make useful ...
    The sheer strength of numbers and economics will mean that the F-35 will suck up a lot of the future development funding. That being said, the Eurofighter is a high altitude air superiority fighter something that the F-35 was not designed for but the US will probably be the last western nation with the wealth to afford such expensive specialized aircraft.
    Last edited by norwoodguy; 22-06-2017 at 06:47 PM.
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  31. #1431
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    Default First aerial demonstration of F-35 - Paris Airshow

    Last edited by norwoodguy; 22-06-2017 at 06:49 PM.
    Did my dog just fall into a pothole???

  32. #1432

    Default Canada takes first official step to buying used fighter jets from Australia

    What is it with the Liberals and used military equipment for our forces? They don't think our forces deserve better than used submarines, or now it seems, used Super Hornets? They don't realize there is a reason Australia is willing to sell them?

    http://nationalpost.com/news/politic...from-australia

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    Article doesn't say why, or even if Australia considers these jets surplus. The aim of the feds move is to make it clear to Boeing that as long as it's trying to put Bombardier out of business, we'll spend our money elsewhere (even if it's for planes previously built by Boeing).

    And on that front (from the Globe and Mail):

    Delta Air Lines says it will go through withan order for 75 Bombardier Inc. planes C Series despite U.S. government dutiesof nearly 300 per cent but might delay taking possession of the airliners.


    "We willtake the planes," Delta chief executive Ed Bastian told analysts during anearnings call Wednesday.

    Delta is scheduled to take delivery of the firstC Series in April 2018. By then, the U.S. International Trade Commission (ITC)is expected to deliver final rulings on whether Commerce's initial decisions toimpose duties on the C Series will stand.

    "It is verydifficult for Boeing or any U.S. manufacturer to claim harm with a product thatwe purchased that they did not offer and they don't produce," Mr. Bastiansaid. "As you look through this and try to see how exactly a harm case isgoing to be developed, particularly to justify the type of tarrifs that arebeing contemplated, to us it's unrealistic, a bit nonsensical."

    ... gobsmacked

  34. #1434
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    A second hand one for sure. Our men and women are used to crap!

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    Quote Originally Posted by McBoo View Post
    Article doesn't say why, or even if Australia considers these jets surplus.
    Australia is buying about 75 F35's. They were planning to keep the Growler Superhornets as being useful (although they may be having second thoughts on that, as Growlers aren't really needed with F35's), but the rest of their Superhornet fleet (which was also an interim buy), is surplus. The hard reality the Liberals don't want to face up to (or maybe just don't care about), is that every western fighter other than the F35 and F22 is going to be obsolete soon, its why almost every NATO nation is choosing the F35.

    Buying used Australian jets though, just to prove a point against Boeing, is a recipe for disaster - most of the cost of a fighter jet over its life isn't the initial purchase - its operating it, the older and more used the jet, the more that is going to cost.
    Last edited by moahunter; 11-10-2017 at 01:41 PM.

  36. #1436
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    What is it with the Liberals and used military equipment for our forces? They don't think our forces deserve better than used submarines, or now it seems, used Super Hornets? They don't realize there is a reason Australia is willing to sell them?

    http://nationalpost.com/news/politic...from-australia
    Australia isn't selling their Super Hornets. The aircraft Canada is looking to buy are the F/A-18A/B Hornets

    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...ornets-441980/

  37. #1437

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    ^my bad, that's horrible then, the forces would be just getting old planes like our current ones.

  38. #1438
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^my bad, that's horrible then, the forces would be just getting old planes like our current ones.
    Exactly. It's the liberal way!

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    Not defending the Liberals on this, they've turned a politically-motivated but impractical decision to cancel the F35 deal into a smelly, festering pile of doo-doo.

    Now they're looking desperately for an interim "solution" (till after the next election one suspects) to try and come up with a good alternative long-term solution.

    Not sure what role NATO expects from Canada in any sort of joint mission, but whatever that is, or was, the F35 was apparently considered well suited for it.

    Maybe there are British, French or other aircraft also well suited and NORAD compatible (as both are NATO members).

    I'm not nearly expert enough to know, but this file has been dragging on far too long and with the Bombardier file now involved, messier than ever.
    ... gobsmacked

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