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Thread: Canadians' debt-to-asset ratio tops in OECD, report says

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    Default Canadians' debt-to-asset ratio tops in OECD, report says

    TORONTO — Canadians are among the most reckless spenders in the developed world, says a new report.

    Helped by rock-bottom interest rates, consumers have been borrowing at unprecedented levels and now owe a record $1.41 trillion, putting Canada in the No. 1 spot among OECD nations in terms of consumer debt to financial assets, says a study by the Certified General Accountants Association of Canada.

    That puts Canada ahead of countries such as the Slovak Republic and, tellingly, Greece.

    Financial Post

    ...interesting reading.


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    Quote Originally Posted by andy8244 View Post
    ...interesting reading.
    interesting reading indeed. although anyone reading it will note that the report also says "a significant chunk of the" [consumer] "debt is related to residential mortgages...".

    so we may indeed be "ahead of countries such as the slovak republic and greece" but that's probably because most people in the slovak republic and greece don't own their own homes and because rent - regardless of how large a proportion of their income it takes - is not considered to be consumer debt.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by andy8244 View Post
    ...interesting reading.
    interesting reading indeed. although anyone reading it will note that the report also says "a significant chunk of the" [consumer] "debt is related to residential mortgages...".

    so we may indeed be "ahead of countries such as the slovak republic and greece" but that's probably because most people in the slovak republic and greece don't own their own homes and because rent - regardless of how large a proportion of their income it takes - is not considered to be consumer debt.
    Debt is debt. If it's mortgage debt, then this also means that Canada has some of the most expensive housing in the world and/or some of the most reckless lending practices?

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    No, it means that more Canadians own homes than in Greece and Slovenia, and are not defaulting (and therefore wiping out all that "debt") at the rate they are in the US.

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    Quote Originally Posted by andy8244 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by andy8244 View Post
    ...interesting reading.
    interesting reading indeed. although anyone reading it will note that the report also says "a significant chunk of the" [consumer] "debt is related to residential mortgages...".

    so we may indeed be "ahead of countries such as the slovak republic and greece" but that's probably because most people in the slovak republic and greece don't own their own homes and because rent - regardless of how large a proportion of their income it takes - is not considered to be consumer debt.
    Debt is debt. If it's mortgage debt, then this also means that Canada has some of the most expensive housing in the world and/or some of the most reckless lending practices?
    if payments that have to made are debt, then shouldn't you consider rent to be debt just as much as a mortgage payment? after all, the consequences of not making either of them are the same are they not?

    as for drawing the conclusion that "canada has some of the most expensive housing in the world and/or some of the most reckless lending practices", i would guess that relative to incomes the cost of buying a house in the slovak republic or greece is incrementally more expensive than it is in canada which is why most people are forced to rent which is exactly the reverse of the assumption you put forward.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    interesting reading indeed. although anyone reading it will note that the report also says "a significant chunk of the" [consumer] "debt is related to residential mortgages...".
    A significant chunk of the debt is related to residential mortgages, and while Canadians have been borrowing less to pay for homes over the past two years, they have been spending more on just about everything else, so the total debt level continued to grow.
    This will all begin to get even more intriguing as interest rates begin to push up later this year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by andy8244 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    interesting reading indeed. although anyone reading it will note that the report also says "a significant chunk of the" [consumer] "debt is related to residential mortgages...".
    A significant chunk of the debt is related to residential mortgages, and while Canadians have been borrowing less to pay for homes over the past two years, they have been spending more on just about everything else, so the total debt level continued to grow.
    This will all begin to get even more intriguing as interest rates begin to push up later this year.
    it may be "intriguing" but it is still apples and oranges based on your original post comparing canada to the slovak republic and greece when it comes to relative debt levels. and it still doesn't answer the question regarding relative debt levels if you include rent (or exclude mortgage debt which amount to the same thing).

    it would also be interesting to know the ratio of debt levels relative to income (i.e. ability to service same) and not just the ratio of debt levels to financial assets as presented.

    regardless, i would think one's assets and financial position -regardless of what it is - would still be a lot more secure in canada today than it would be in greece. but why let facts influence a good conclusion...
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by andy8244 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    interesting reading indeed. although anyone reading it will note that the report also says "a significant chunk of the" [consumer] "debt is related to residential mortgages...".
    A significant chunk of the debt is related to residential mortgages, and while Canadians have been borrowing less to pay for homes over the past two years, they have been spending more on just about everything else, so the total debt level continued to grow.
    This will all begin to get even more intriguing as interest rates begin to push up later this year.
    it may be "intriguing" but it is still apples and oranges based on your original post comparing canada to the slovak republic and greece when it comes to relative debt levels. and it still doesn't answer the question regarding relative debt levels if you include rent (or exclude mortgage debt which amount to the same thing).

    it would also be interesting to know the ratio of debt levels relative to income (i.e. ability to service same) and not just the ratio of debt levels to financial assets as presented.

    regardless, i would think one's assets and financial position -regardless of what it is - would still be a lot more secure in canada today than it would be in greece. but why let facts influence a good conclusion...
    ...I think you may want to consider the conclusions of the CGAAC in the round, rather than becoming fixated on the use of Greece as a (somewhat topical) example.

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    Quote Originally Posted by andy8244 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by andy8244 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    interesting reading indeed. although anyone reading it will note that the report also says "a significant chunk of the" [consumer] "debt is related to residential mortgages...".
    A significant chunk of the debt is related to residential mortgages, and while Canadians have been borrowing less to pay for homes over the past two years, they have been spending more on just about everything else, so the total debt level continued to grow.
    This will all begin to get even more intriguing as interest rates begin to push up later this year.
    it may be "intriguing" but it is still apples and oranges based on your original post comparing canada to the slovak republic and greece when it comes to relative debt levels. and it still doesn't answer the question regarding relative debt levels if you include rent (or exclude mortgage debt which amount to the same thing).

    it would also be interesting to know the ratio of debt levels relative to income (i.e. ability to service same) and not just the ratio of debt levels to financial assets as presented.

    regardless, i would think one's assets and financial position -regardless of what it is - would still be a lot more secure in canada today than it would be in greece. but why let facts influence a good conclusion...
    ...I think you may want to consider the conclusions of the CGAAC in the round, rather than becoming fixated on the use of Greece as a (somewhat topical) example.
    i didn't use greece as an example andy8244, you did.

    along with the slovak republic.

    noting that your concern with "my fixation" still didn't answer my questions...
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    I don't buy that report because you all know many Americans are in huge debts than we are, due to health care, credit cards and loans. you also know that feds in america are at 12 trillion dollars debts meaning every americans would have to pay about $ 80, 000 each to pay off the feds's debts

    you can check the link and it is actual clock for all americans so you can see their debts are higher than us here.

    http://www.usdebtclock.org/index.html


    everything from credit card to personal debts
    Last edited by jagators63; 11-05-2010 at 06:52 PM.
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    ^^You don't seem to be posing any real questions, you just appear to be making a load of unsubstantiated assumptions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jagators63 View Post
    I don't buy that report because you all know many Americans are in huge debts than we are, due to health care, credit cards and loans. you also know that feds in america are at 12 trillion dollars debts meaning every americans would have to pay about $ 80, 000 each to pay off the feds's debts

    you can check the link and it is actual clock for all americans so you can see their debts are higher than us here.

    http://www.usdebtclock.org/index.html


    everything from credit card to personal debts
    ...This report is on consumer debt to financial assets.

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    As Kcantor asked I wonder how this 'report' separates between debt outside a mortgage and mortgage debt.
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    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/2...n-history.html
    This article is a couple of years old but I should imagine things across the pond will be worse now as they were hit harder than Canada by the recession.
    Maybe that is why Andy is here, to get a way from it all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by andy8244 View Post
    ^^You don't seem to be posing any real questions, you just appear to be making a load of unsubstantiated assumptions?
    i thought this one was pretty real:

    "if payments that have to made are debt, then shouldn't you consider rent to be debt just as much as a mortgage payment?"

    and this one:

    "after all, the consequences of not making either of them are the same are they not?"
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    Quote Originally Posted by MylesC View Post
    As Kcantor asked I wonder how this 'report' separates between debt outside a mortgage and mortgage debt.
    Here you go, knock yourselves out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    so we may indeed be "ahead of countries such as the slovak republic and greece" but that's probably because most people in the slovak republic and greece don't own their own homes and because rent - regardless of how large a proportion of their income it takes - is not considered to be consumer debt.
    Facts please.

    Given that this is a rating of OECD nations, please cite sources showing that Canada has a higher home ownership rate than Greece, Slovenia, Britain, the US, Australia, Spain, Ireland, France, Luxembourg, Germany, or any other OECD countries you feel are relevant to your argument.

    Otherwise, it sounds kinda made up.

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    I like how they jump to the conclusion that borrowers are "reckless". I think their minds are trapped in a rather narrow view of the world.

    Low interest rates and a high CAD to USD and other currencies could be considered a window of opportunity that consumers should be taking advantage of - as should businesses seeking to expand their productive capacity by importing plant and equipment while the dollar is high.

    Also, while my view is that house prices are very likely to stagnate or fall back to some trend line, if instead the world enters and another inflationary period similar to or even more dramatic than the 1970s - then today's heavy debtors will look like geniuses.

    The bottom line is that debt, as they say; is a double edged sword.
    Last edited by KC; 11-05-2010 at 09:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post

    Low interest rates and a high CAD to USD and other currencies could be considered a window of opportunity that consumers should be taking advantage of - as should businesses seeking to expand their productive capacity by importing plant and equipment while the dollar is high.
    This may well hold true for business, but for consumers p!ssing it away on SUVs and vacations to Vagas – not so much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newfangled View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    so we may indeed be "ahead of countries such as the slovak republic and greece" but that's probably because most people in the slovak republic and greece don't own their own homes and because rent - regardless of how large a proportion of their income it takes - is not considered to be consumer debt.
    Facts please.

    Given that this is a rating of OECD nations, please cite sources showing that Canada has a higher home ownership rate than Greece, Slovenia, Britain, the US, Australia, Spain, Ireland, France, Luxembourg, Germany, or any other OECD countries you feel are relevant to your argument.

    Otherwise, it sounds kinda made up.
    this was the best set of facts i could find to confirm what sounded kinda made up:

    http://www.infra.kth.se/se/byfa/publ...pporter/54.pdf

    this was the best set of "reasons" behind the facts and seems to confirm most of the facts as well:

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...g=content;col1

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_n21323317/

    the weighted average of eu home ownership seems to be almost 5% less than canada's almost 69%. within that, the difference between new and old eu members is pretty dramatic as is the difference between northern and southern europe. as well, the available statistical analysis is not wholly consistent in that there is often no differentiation between privately owned housing and owner occupied housing with some analysts thinking that 15% or more of the overall home ownership in some markets - including greece - is rented investment or summer home property and not owner occupied (which is part of the canadian definition of home ownership). having said that, there is also quite a difference across canada (i.e. greater than 70% in alberta and barely 50% in quebec) which demonstrates that cultural and historical practices and attitudes have as much of an influence in canada as they do throughout the oecd. for comparison, our national numbers are still a couple of points above that in the united states which probably has the most comparable housing stock (noting that the quality and type of housing available also has an impact on ownership rates that can have as much impact as mortgage and government policy although it could probably be argued as to which is cause and which is effect). the two other things that are not reflected in the overal statistics is housing that stays in a family from one generation to the next and the number of generations living in family owned housing.
    Last edited by kcantor; 12-05-2010 at 12:13 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by andy8244 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post

    Low interest rates and a high CAD to USD and other currencies could be considered a window of opportunity that consumers should be taking advantage of - as should businesses seeking to expand their productive capacity by importing plant and equipment while the dollar is high.
    This may well hold true for business, but for consumers p!ssing it away on SUVs and vacations to Vagas – not so much.

    Some may p!ss it away, but others see the low rates as a way to build equity in their own property rather than throwing money away to a landlord (thus the name) so they can enjoy vacations (debt free no less) in Vegas

    Sure some could say that I'm personally in huge debt according to this report and a fella in some less "indebted" country may technically have less debt. However if I have say a mortgage "or bad debt" of $100K on a property worth $750K and my interest rate is 3% am I in worse shape than say a person with NO assets paying $1200 a month in RENT?

    Tough for the fella with no equity and most of his income going to service "RENT debt" to consider himself financially secure isn't it?

    Just would be curious to see your answer
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    Quote Originally Posted by andy8244 View Post
    Debt is debt. If it's mortgage debt, then this also means that Canada has some of the most expensive housing in the world and/or some of the most reckless lending practices?
    So if we have such reckless lending practices, why is it that we didn't have the melt down they had in the U.S.? Oh, what's that, because our mortgages were highly regulated (with required deposits, home insurance, etc.)?

    As to the most expensive real estate, as a comparison, lets consider the UK:

    Average detached home price: £340,004 = $515,422 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/h...tml/houses.stm

    Compared to Canada detached home price: $329,000

    http://ca.news.finance.yahoo.com/s/0...n-markets.html

    So a long way to go before our house prices are as high as the UK, let alone countries like Switzerland.

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    remember in USA, there are about 800,000 homes are being foreclosure due to mortgage debts but how many homes in canada are in foreclosure ?? that is a question that many of us here should know about.
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    While I may agree it's important, Debt to Equity ratio is only one factor to consider. Cash flow would be another. I know a few street people with no real debt or equity, and I know wealthy people with a debt to equity ratio much worse than that, but who are certainly in a much better position.

    And regarding people "pissing their money away on vacations and SUV's" - well it is their money. I think someone's a little bitter that they don't get to put their hands in our wallets for their pet causes.
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    Well Top_Dawg isn't one to read reports or analyze data.

    Why ?

    Because

    a) it involves thought which to him is most painful, and

    b) he's too pucken brain dead to understand it anyway.

    However, just from his anecdotal observations of colleagues, friends, neighbors and the like, it sure looks to him that many people have to be carrying a **** load of consumer debt. Either that or everyone he knows inherited a p!ss pot full of loot recently.

    It is interesting to note that during a recent interview, the Governor of the Bank of Canada voiced concerns about both the high level of debt and the meagre savings of Canadian households.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by andy8244 View Post
    Debt is debt. If it's mortgage debt, then this also means that Canada has some of the most expensive housing in the world and/or some of the most reckless lending practices?
    So if we have such reckless lending practices, why is it that we didn't have the melt down they had in the U.S.? ...
    or the recent melt down they had in greece? despite their "low" debt to equity ratio...
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by andy8244 View Post
    Debt is debt. If it's mortgage debt, then this also means that Canada has some of the most expensive housing in the world and/or some of the most reckless lending practices?
    So if we have such reckless lending practices, why is it that we didn't have the melt down they had in the U.S.? ...
    or the recent melt down they had in greece? despite their "low" debt to equity ratio...
    Didn't I read somewhere or other that the Canadian government stepped in and bought/underwrote somewhere in the region of $65 billion worth of mortgages?

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    Quote Originally Posted by andy8244 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by andy8244 View Post
    Debt is debt. If it's mortgage debt, then this also means that Canada has some of the most expensive housing in the world and/or some of the most reckless lending practices?
    So if we have such reckless lending practices, why is it that we didn't have the melt down they had in the U.S.? ...
    or the recent melt down they had in greece? despite their "low" debt to equity ratio...
    Didn't I read somewhere or other that the Canadian government stepped in and bought/underwrote somewhere in the region of $65 billion worth of mortgages?
    so? it makes no difference to the mortgagee who owns the mortgage.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by andy8244 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by andy8244 View Post
    Debt is debt. If it's mortgage debt, then this also means that Canada has some of the most expensive housing in the world and/or some of the most reckless lending practices?
    So if we have such reckless lending practices, why is it that we didn't have the melt down they had in the U.S.? ...
    or the recent melt down they had in greece? despite their "low" debt to equity ratio...
    Didn't I read somewhere or other that the Canadian government stepped in and bought/underwrote somewhere in the region of $65 billion worth of mortgages?
    so? it makes no difference to the mortgagee who owns the mortgage.
    It makes quite a difference in this case. This injection of liquidity has enabled the banks to keep lending at unprecedentedly low interest rates. This is about to start changing. This combined with the high levels of other personal debt people are now carrying should lead to some very interesting times ahead.

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    I pity you, Andy. You lead such a negative life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gord Lacey View Post
    I pity you, Andy. You lead such a negative life.
    Well don't. I'm not one of those poor sods up to their ***** in debt - Save it for them.

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    You're missing my point...

    You'll like it, it's British:
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    Quote Originally Posted by andy8244 View Post
    Well don't. I'm not one of those poor sods up to their ***** in debt - Save it for them.
    Ha, every self made rich person I know has been willing to go massively into debt, it's easy to get your panties in a twist about what could go wrong - the people who succeed are those with a vision and confidence in what will go right. Even if you fail, it's just a learning experience that will help you succeed next time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by andy8244 View Post
    Well don't. I'm not one of those poor sods up to their ***** in debt - Save it for them.
    Ha, every self made rich person I know has been willing to go massively into debt, it's easy to get your panties in a twist about what could go wrong - the people who succeed are those with a vision and confidence in what will go right. Even if you fail, it's just a learning experience that will help you succeed next time.
    The report addresses Canada's consumer dept time bomb not business finance. Still, thanks for your entrepreneur 101 primer.

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    good debt is just that, good
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    Quote Originally Posted by andy8244 View Post
    ...
    The report addresses Canada's consumer dept time bomb not business finance. Still, thanks for your entrepreneur 101 primer.
    although if you want to stay with personal finance 102, to be accurate the report referred to consumer debt but it included all personal (i.e. mortgage and investment and rrsp borrowing etc.) debt in calculating what it then referred to as "consumer" debt.
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    Yeah, that didn't make sense to me at all. Most of the time mortgages are not considered to be "consumer" debt, since mortgages aren't consumption (home equity lines of credit notwithstanding).

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    Your parents always taught you that; "Debt is good!", right?

    However, it looks like its mostly mortgage debt. As long as rates don't doubt at renewal time, life is good.



    Canada household debt ratio hits new record of 163.3%
    by Chris Fournier, Bloomberg News, Mar 12, 2015

    "But BMO economists said in a report on Thursday’s data that Canadians’ debt may not be as bad as it seems.

    “While debt has been rising to record heights, so too have financial assets, helped by the massive rebound in equity markets and an underlying rise in savings,” said economists Douglas Porter and Benjamin Reitzes. “While there is plenty of room for improvement, especially on the savings front, these factors suggest that household finances are not nearly as weak as the dire headlines would suggest.”

    The economists list three reasons not to panic about debt. ..."

    http://business.financialpost.com/20...cord-of-163-3/

  39. #39

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    I'm not sure about parents telling kids that debt is good. There was a time in Alberta's history were interest rates were so high (17% to 18%) that the Government of Alberta had a program were they were giving people cheques each month to off set the high cost of their mortgages. I'm not sure what stars aligned to cause that perfect storm but I'm sure having to pay 18% interest on a mortgage would bring a lot of people on their knees. Interest of 18% on a mortgage should never happen. Whey should have a ceiling on mortgage interest rates.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  40. #40

    Default

    With interest rates at "once in a lifetime" (or two or three) low levels, more and more people 'should' be in better and better financial shape. Seems though that record low rates have just encouraged people to put the income into paying more debt rather than paying down their existing debt.


    Canadian seniors racking up debt to fund bigger homes, glitzy lifestyles | Financial Post

    Excerpt:
    “I’ve seen people take out lines of credit against their house to help their children buy a house since house prices have increased so much in the last 10 years. I’ve seen individuals continue to support adult children, which does not allow them to pay off debt. And lastly, I’ve seen individuals that are using debt to finance their lifestyle. All of these can be dangerous if not done properly,” Gillespie said..”

    http://business.financialpost.com/pe...zier-lifestyle

    Canadian workers expect to work longer than planned: payroll survey | CTV News


    "More than one in five employees surveyed said they will need to work four years or more than they originally expected before retiring, citing a lack of sufficient savings as the main reason.
    "They are not sounding very promising of what (their) future is going to look like," said association vice-chairwoman Lucy Zambon.
    ...
    Although about half of workers expect to need more than $1 million for retirement, 47 per cent are putting away just five per cent or less of their net pay.
    That's well below the 10 per cent minimum savings rate recommended by financial planning experts, the association said.
    Almost half of Canadians polled said they are living paycheque to paycheque and would find it difficult to meet their financial obligations if their pay was delayed by just a week.
    ...
    Less than one quarter of respondents said they could probably not come up with $2,000 if an emergency arose within the next month. Some 36 per cent of working Canadians said they felt overwhelmed by their level of debt and 12 per cent doubted they'll ever be debt-free. ..."

    http://www.ctvnews.ca/business/canad...rvey-1.2554039

    Last edited by KC; 09-09-2015 at 10:12 AM.

  41. #41

    Default

    ^doesn't surprise me at all, lots of people have saved too much for their retirement, becuase they own a home the value of which has increased. Why shouldn't they enjoy that in their old age? You can't enjoy your equity once you are dead, but you can enjoy watching it benefit your children while you are still alive.

  42. #42

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^doesn't surprise me at all, lots of people have saved too much for their retirement, becuase they own a home the value of which has increased. Why shouldn't they enjoy that in their old age? You can't enjoy your equity once you are dead, but you can enjoy watching it benefit your children while you are still alive.
    I'd totally agree, for people who clearly know that they have more than they need for retirement.

    Aging though often has a lot of costs that can't be anticipated. In my own family, my parents had been comfortably retired for over two decades. Then overnight the costs started to hit: electric wheel chair, special beds, lifts, etc. ongoing prescription drugs and hiring staff (caregivers) to live with them in order that they could stay together in their last days. (And of course there's the usual monthly costs.) When you hear a rightwing government saying that traditional values and the family is everything, don't believe it. In the extended care system ailing old couple were frequently separated to die by themselves. After nearly 60 years together we were lucky to have the financial resources so they could end together.

  43. #43

    Default

    Another ratio...


    Debt-to-income ratio ticks up to 164.6%, StatsCan reports

    On a per-capita basis, Canada's net worth rose to $238.2K at the end of June
    CBC News Posted: Sep 11, 2015


    That means that Canadians owe just under $1.65 for every dollar of their disposable income.

    The ratio increased because while incomes rose by 0.8 per cent, so too did Canadians' debt levels, which increased by 1.8 per cent.

    Canadians borrowed $26.3 billion in the second quarter, the data agency said, an increase of $3.7 billion from the first quarter. Most of that new borrowing came in the form of mortgages.

    ...
    "Household net worth hit an all-time high of 768 per cent of disposable income," he said, adding that even despite the higher debt loads, Canadians' debt-to-asset ratio is still relatively low at 17.9 per cent.

    "This implies that Canadian households have $5.59 of assets for every $1 of debt," Reitzes noted.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/debt...orth-1.3223917

  44. #44

    Default Ontario debt debacle will eventually bite Canada

    Ontario' s debt (300 Billion) and growing ( Quebec is around that amount as well) could drag Canada down.
    The Federal debt is less that 600 Billion so the combined debt of Ont and Que is more that the federal debt.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-1...provinces-debt

  45. #45

    Default

    To see the debt of your province or country just Google
    "Xxxx debt clock"
    Eg "Alberta debt clock"

  46. #46

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by harrington65 View Post
    Ontario' s debt (300 Billion) and growing ( Quebec is around that amount as well) could drag Canada down.
    The Federal debt is less that 600 Billion so the combined debt of Ont and Que is more that the federal debt.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-1...provinces-debt

    A lot like asking Canadians to cut their emissions to prevent global warming. Every itsy-bitsy teeny-weeny bit helps.


    Christmas is a time for giving and that is what Ontario Premier Kathleen Wynne is asking of her citizenry. With almost $300 billion in debt, and almost 1 in 10 dollars of revenue going to pay interest, and already facing the highest tax rates in North America, The Star reports that Ontario officials are asking that 'patriots' voluntarily donate their tax refund or write a cheque to defray the province's massive debtload.

  47. #47

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Your parents always taught you that; "Debt is good!", right?

    However, it looks like its mostly mortgage debt. As long as rates don't doubt at renewal time, life is good.



    Canada household debt ratio hits new record of 163.3%
    by Chris Fournier, Bloomberg News, Mar 12, 2015

    "But BMO economists said in a report on Thursday’s data that Canadians’ debt may not be as bad as it seems.

    “While debt has been rising to record heights, so too have financial assets, helped by the massive rebound in equity markets and an underlying rise in savings,” said economists Douglas Porter and Benjamin Reitzes. “While there is plenty of room for improvement, especially on the savings front, these factors suggest that household finances are not nearly as weak as the dire headlines would suggest.”

    The economists list three reasons not to panic about debt. ..."

    http://business.financialpost.com/20...cord-of-163-3/






    and so it goes.... I wonder what will happen if, say Trump gets elected and Canada takes a hit of some sort, maybe having to pay more for US military protection, trade deals come under immediate threat, you name it. But That's stuff for another thread (which I started long ago.)

    This is about "making hay while the sun shines", interest rates are low and central banks want people to borrow, so that's what people are doing.



    Canadian key household debt ratio hits record high
    Household debt climbs to $1.68 for every $1 of disposable income, StatsCan says
    CBC News Posted: Sep 15, 2016

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/debt...cord-1.3763343


    ...
    Household debt now larger than Canada’s GDP as mortgage borrowing mounts

    Household credit market debt, which includes consumer credit and mortgage and non-mortgage loans, rose 2 per cent in the quarter, easily outpacing growth in disposable income of just 0.5 per cent.
    ...


    The Bank of Canada has flagged the high level of debt as a potential vulnerability for the financial system. A central bank official said earlier this month that the amount of debt compared with income was starting to get disturbing.

    But higher home prices drove a 1.9 per cent increase in Canadians' net worth in the second quarter. On a per capita basis, household net worth was $271,300, up from $266,900 in the first quarter.


    http://www.bnn.ca/household-debt-now...ounts-1.567342


    If they can afford it, why not...

    Incomeless students spent $57-million on Vancouver homes in past two years

    Four of the sales to student buyers were covered by mortgages from three major banks – a fact that underscores how Canada’s banks are inflating the region’s housing market, said NDP housing critic David Eby, who provided data from his provincial riding.


    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle31892652/


    Almost a million Canadians couldn't handle a 1-point interest rate rise, TransUnion says
    1 in 6 Canadians would owe an extra $50 a month if rates rose by just a quarter percentage point
    By Pete Evans, CBC News Posted: Sep 13, 2016

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/tran...ates-1.3759844
    Last edited by KC; 15-09-2016 at 11:27 AM.

  48. #48
    I'd rather C2E than work!
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    Default

    I wonder what the statistics would be for Alberta alone, excluding Canada as a whole

  49. #49

    Default

    This quote remind anyone of Alberta? “What screams out to me is that we are now heavily dependent on non-residents providing a lot of funds and what we do need is households to do more active saving.”




    Canada’s record household debt is threatening its financial stability, global bankers fear

    Maciej Onoszko, Bloomberg News | October 24, 2016

    Canada’s debt, swelled by a decade-long housing boom to almost triple the size of its economy, is drawing increasing concern from an international banking community that says it threatens growth and financial stability.

    The combined debt of Canadian governments, companies and households reached US$4.4 trillion in the first quarter, or 288 per cent of gross domestic product, exceeding
    ...


    “Right now Canada is the place to go, but that can change quickly,” Watt said by phone. He estimates Canada’s total debt swelled to 294 per cent of GDP in the second quarter and even higher in the third. “What screams out to me is that we are now heavily dependent on non-residents providing a lot of funds and what we do need is households to do more active saving.”

    http://business.financialpost.com/ne...l-bankers-fear

  50. #50

    Default

    Surprise, surprise. The Alberta delinquency rate is almost 5 times the national average.
    Nationally, "Average non-mortgage debt load now at $21,686".



    Average non-mortgage debt load now at $21,686, TransUnion says

    Delinquency rate remains low despite growing debt loads, credit agency says
    By Pete Evans, CBC News Posted: Nov 10, 2016


    The typical Canadian now owes $21,686, TransUnion says — a figure that doesn't include the mortgage.

    Within that figure, the average credit card debt is $3,954, a rise of two per cent this year. But the real growth has come in instalment loans — typically, short-term loans at much higher interest rates. Average balances on instalment loans have risen 6.8 per cent in the last year to $24,782 — a $2,200 increase from two years ago.

    ...

    The number of people who are delinquent on their bills — which TransUnion says means they are more than 90 days behind on payments — is at 2.7 per cent. Last year, it was at 2.62 per cent.

    Two provinces, however, have seen their delinquency rates spike this year — up by 13.4 per cent in Alberta and 11.9 per cent in Saskatchewan. Everywhere else, the rate is either stable or falling.
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/tran...gage-1.3844986

  51. #51

    Default

    ^The mortgage insurance, EI pay-outs and severance packages are starting to run out, tip of ice-berg I fear.

  52. #52
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    Canadians have developed a sense of complacency because we managed to come out of the financial crisis in better shape than Americans. Our house prices did not plummet, coupled with low interest rates, etc. Complacency is often the cause of financial excesses.
    Last edited by norwoodguy; 10-11-2016 at 10:28 PM.
    Did my dog just fall into a pothole???

  53. #53

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by norwoodguy View Post
    Canadians have developed a sense of complacency because we managed to come out of the financial crisis in better shape than Americans. Our house prices did not plummet, coupled with low interest rates, etc. Complacency is often the cause of financial excesses.
    Yup. Reach the point of maximum indebtedness, aka vulnerability, just in time for some NAFTA reneg-otiations.

  54. #54

    Default

    One of the biggest problems is people buying homes that are too expensive. Instead of starting off in townhomes or duplexes they go for the house it took their parent and grandparents 2, 3 or maybe 4 moves to obtain. Then when they buy said house they can't put old furniture in it. It has to look like a Better Homes and Garden cover. When things start going wrong like the loss of a job the high mortgage payment takes just about any income they have left. Taxes, utilities etc take a chunk too.
    With them buying an expensive house as the first home purchase they did not leave enough money for savings. Credit cards paid for purchases and when their homes had enough collateral on them Lines of Credit were obtained and maxed to the hilt.
    It's sad that people work hard for their money then spend it just as fast. I always think saving money is a discipline. If you can save for what you want in stead of using credit you will get a head. If you can discipline yourself to save part of your earning it becomes a life long habit that pays of in spades.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  55. #55
    C2E Hard Core Contributor
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    Nobody knows you have money when it's hidden in a bank... so you need to have the toys for the appearance of success. And because you didn't have much money in the bank when sh1t goes south...

    zero ***** given

  56. #56

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitlope View Post
    Nobody knows you have money when it's hidden in a bank... so you need to have the toys for the appearance of success. And because you didn't have much money in the bank when sh1t goes south...

    zero ***** given
    It's twisted, right? And the constant bombardment of advertising conditions us for this consumer "keep up with the Jones'" mentality. I battle with the desire to buy an unnecessary sports car all the time. The pressure to have something shiny to show off status is overwhelming.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  57. #57
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    Those who have Money, really have no need to show it. They already have it. What's the point?

    No one can tell that some guy or girl walking down the street in jeans and a T shirt is worth say $2-5M net worth.

    It's not only about money folks, it's all about liberation and freedom from debt.

  58. #58
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    A lot of people achieve wealth by being very careful with their money, spending within their means, saving and investing judiciously. And certainly don't reflect their wealth in extraneous trappings such as jewellery or expensive cars.
    Did my dog just fall into a pothole???

  59. #59
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    Image is a powerful force, I think especially in Alberta versus other provinces. I can go to Vancouver Island and visit my folks for 2 or 3 weeks and see many older cars & trucks, some rusted and no one seems to care that they're driving something old. In Alberta you're considered a loser and looked down upon by buddy in his fancy new Dodge, plain and simple. Keeping up to the Jones' is real. It's no secret that Alberta is a North American juggernaut when it comes to auto sales.

    I have a neighbor that came out of a 5 year credit proposal and once he paid all that out and gota clean bill of health decided he needed a fancy muscle car on almost 20% interest. Despite my warnings and to wait, he bought it in the fall of 2014 just to park it all winter and oil's march downward had already started. The warning signs were there but he was smarter than all of us after repeated warnings to hold off and see what happens. Then in Feb '16 he lost his decent paying job. Today, it's a struggle and he now admits he made a mistake. Well no sh1t you dummy. But image is a powerful force, spending money that you don't have and ridiculous interest payments just to be seen driving around in a hotrod.

    Repeat this scenario all through Alberta and this is the what you get. People here have absolutely no concept of living within your means. And quite truthfully, I have zero sympathy for these dummies.

  60. #60

    Default

    Canada's Gravity-Defying Household Debt Swells to C$2 Trillion
    by Greg Quinn
    December 14, 2016

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...2-trillion-tab

  61. #61

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitlope View Post
    Image is a powerful force, I think especially in Alberta versus other provinces. I can go to Vancouver Island and visit my folks for 2 or 3 weeks and see many older cars & trucks, some rusted and no one seems to care that they're driving something old. In Alberta you're considered a loser and looked down upon by buddy in his fancy new Dodge, plain and simple. Keeping up to the Jones' is real. It's no secret that Alberta is a North American juggernaut when it comes to auto sales.

    I have a neighbor that came out of a 5 year credit proposal and once he paid all that out and gota clean bill of health decided he needed a fancy muscle car on almost 20% interest. Despite my warnings and to wait, he bought it in the fall of 2014 just to park it all winter and oil's march downward had already started. The warning signs were there but he was smarter than all of us after repeated warnings to hold off and see what happens. Then in Feb '16 he lost his decent paying job. Today, it's a struggle and he now admits he made a mistake. Well no sh1t you dummy. But image is a powerful force, spending money that you don't have and ridiculous interest payments just to be seen driving around in a hotrod.

    Repeat this scenario all through Alberta and this is the what you get. People here have absolutely no concept of living within your means. And quite truthfully, I have zero sympathy for these dummies.

    Not much of a forewarning on their part. You want warning of unstable snow conditions BEFORE you see the avalanche racing towards you.



    Credit card delinquencies spike 23% in Alberta, Saskatchewan as national rate rises only slightly
    TransUnion report says 4.6% of credit cards in Alberta seriously past due
    The Canadian Press Posted: Mar 08, 2017


    "TransUnion published a study in July of 2015 regarding the impact of falling oil prices on provinces heavily reliant on the energy industry, such as Alberta and Saskatchewan," the credit agency said in a release.

    "The study forewarned both lenders and the public that double-digit delinquency rises for these areas would likely occur, a risk that current data confirm has indeed been realized."

    Meantime, both Ontario and British Columbia saw their delinquency rates ..."


    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...nion-1.4014896

    Housing market will burst like all bubbles do: Pape

    Gordon Pape writes that between 1989 and 1996, Toronto house prices fell by 40 per cent, adjusted for inflation.

    ...

    https://www.thestar.com/business/wea...s-do-pape.html
    Last edited by KC; 08-03-2017 at 09:56 AM.

  62. #62

    Default

    Canadian households owed $2 trillion at the end of 2016
    Net worth also rising, according to Statistics Canada report
    CBC News Posted: Mar 15, 2017 9:19 AM ET Last Updated: Mar 15, 2017 9:19 AM ET

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/stat...debt-1.4025646


    Life is good when the money is free.

  63. #63

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Canadian households owed $2 trillion at the end of 2016
    Net worth also rising, according to Statistics Canada report
    CBC News Posted: Mar 15, 2017 9:19 AM ET Last Updated: Mar 15, 2017 9:19 AM ET

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/stat...debt-1.4025646


    Life is good when the money is free.
    Them junkie crack heads are due for an overdose. Nothings free

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