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Thread: Electric Cars

  1. #1
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    Default Electric Cars

    I'm seeing a lot of news regarding electric cars, and the major automakers are bringing in electric vehicles targeted at the mainstream (Chevy Volt).

    Which is good, I suppose.

    But I'm wondering about how much electricity it takes to charge the battery. If it's a minimal amount (like plugging in your regular car battery in winter) it might not be a big deal, but if it's not (especially cumulatively), what's to keep electric vehicle owners from plugging their cars in at work or any outdoor electric outlet)? Is it possible we'll have to put password protected switches (or something) on our outlets?

    Just wondering.
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    ^ I believe most electric cars being made require a higher amperage and/or voltage, meaning a basic 120V/15A outlet won't do.

    ETA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car#Connectors for example.
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  3. #3

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    Using a cardlock style system that charges the power to your account. See emerging tech article below:

    http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=17081

    The same tech would wind up in parkades and other places where urban commuters would likely want to charge their vehicles.
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    Electric cars are vulnerable to the same criticism as the trolley buses: because we produce the majority of our power using dirty technology, plugging something into a socket can be just as bad as starting an engine.

    (I don't want to start a new debate on trolley buses, and understand the frustration of those who advocated for them.)

    Environmentalists are preoccupied with the oil sands, but coal burning is a bigger problem in terms of carbon emissions, and there are strategies we could implement immediately to make electrical generation less harmful. If we don't change the way we make power, the benefits of electric cars will not be realized.
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  5. #5

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    GG, that's completely off topic from what Jimbo was asking. This is a distribution and billing topic, not an environmental one.

    The link I provided discusses emerging technology that would use a cardlock style system to ID the user and charge the electricity to that account. If the plug is removed, the connection is severed to prevent people from "siphoning" electricity from an active plug. I've read about other companies and they're all developing similar technology, so I think it's safe to assume that at some point in the future all public car charging ports will work with a card system, be pay-as-you-go (pop $2 into the machine), or be included in the rate for parking.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  6. #6

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    Electric is much more efficient than a car powered by petro.. even if the electricity is produced by coal.

    You may want to check out the specs of the nissian leaf as it will tell you about charging times and ways of dong it. The leaf ,I believe, can e charged over 8 hours using a normal plug. There will be a quick charge option as well which may require 220.

  7. #7

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    I remember reading, don't remember the source though, that the total energy will be about the same as the monthly cost for a washing machine (I guess hot water and electricity). Others have disputed that though. I guess it depends on how far you drive.

    Regardless, electric vehicles are considerably more efficient that gasoline, thanks to electric motors rather than the internal combustion engine. The isuse is range, cost and recycling the battery, but all of those are improving - e.g. the Leaf or the Volt. Eventually, pure electric vehicles should cost less (esp. if no range extender), and last much longer (although battery may need to change after 5 or 10 years) as there are fewer moving parts. It will take a while for the scale to build up, for that to the be the case though.
    Last edited by moahunter; 16-12-2009 at 12:45 PM.

  8. #8

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    From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf

    The Leaf uses a front-mounted electric motor driving the wheels, powered by a 24kW·h/90 kW lithium ion battery pack.
    The battery can be charged to 80% capacity in about 30 minutes with a special quick charger[9] that sends 440/480 volt direct current to the battery. It can also be charged from a conventional 110- or 220-volt alternating current outlet.
    80% of 24KWh is 19.2KWh, or roughly the daily usage of an apartment. Getting that into a battery inside of 30 minutes isn't currently feasible with the current residential electricity grid, as it's simply not built to that sort of demand or supply voltage. You'd be able to get a quick charge at a central location, but at home? Be prepared for huge costs for installation and electricity service.

    40 KW of demand is needed to put 20KWh of power into a battery in half an hour, at 100% efficiency, which isn't possible for recharging.
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  9. #9

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    ^Most people aren't going to run them down to 0 every day though, most of us don't do 160km of driving every day. On a 220, it is supposed to be an 8 hour charge, so just put a 220 in the garage (not a big deal), and will charge fully overnight.

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    Thanks for the replies. I even feel guilty when I charge my bicycle light battery at work. Well, not that guilty. If I had an electric car that could be charged fully in 8 hours on normal outlets, I'd charge it at work all of the time. I'm sure everyone would. Which would present a dilemma for businesses, epecially those with lots of employees.

    Maybe it becomes a perk at work. There has to be a tipping point where it becomes an issue.

    I've been hearing a lot about recent technologies demonstrated in Copenhagen which dramatically reduce the environmental impact of coal powered plants.

    I think electric cars might be the way to go in the near future. I'd sure prefer cycling behind one of them to, for example, waiting behind a gas powered car at a stop light. It's very hard to breathe sometimes. If people had to breathe their own exhaust, then we'd see some action on this, stat.
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  11. #11

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    I recently read that as electricity infrastructure becomes more advanced (smart grids) electric cars connected to the system could be used as batteries to store surplus power than can be drawn on as electricity is needed.


    Added intelligence would also make it much easier to cope with the demand from electric cars by making sure that not all of a neighbourhood’s vehicles are being charged at the same time. Although this is still many years away, the cars’ batteries could even be used to feed electricity back into the grid if needed, and so act as a vast electricity-storage system.
    http://www.economist.com/displaystor...ry_id=14586006

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Thanks for the replies. I even feel guilty when I charge my bicycle light battery at work. Well, not that guilty. If I had an electric car that could be charged fully in 8 hours on normal outlets, I'd charge it at work all of the time. I'm sure everyone would. Which would present a dilemma for businesses, epecially those with lots of employees.

    Maybe it becomes a perk at work. There has to be a tipping point where it becomes an issue.
    ...
    not sure that your bike light battery warrants guilt, particularly for someone brave (foolhardy ) enough to commute by bike year round...

    it's an interesting dilema for landlords and developers as well though. from a leed perspective (for those designing by report card alsone as much as by good design), you have to demonstrate that your overall consumption is a minimum percentage better than a base line building. you may get an innovation point for encouraging electric cars and lose your certification all together. at this point, we're planning for the capacity but not installing the internal distribution within the parkade until we can resolve not only the metering but also some of the technical issues (i.e. not only how much load will be imposed at a given location but at what voltage and whether there will be a "universal" plug and what effect timers might have etc.). individual metering is also under discussion (in the same manner that you "plug" a parking meter for a certain amount of time, you would "plug" the electrical meter for a certain amount of power).
    Last edited by kcantor; 16-12-2009 at 03:41 PM.
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  13. #13

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    A little off-topic, but has anyone read any articles that discuss the battery life expectancy with the heater, heated seats, windshield/mirror defrost, full headlights (it's dark alot here in winter) and wheel slip factored in?

    Say for example an EV is advertised at 200km range, that's of course MAX, with a 90lb grandma driving at peak efficiency with no features turned on in an otherwise empty car.

    Throw in your average 150lb person, a passenger (carpooling is good, remember?) 50lbs of junk in the trunk, all the "winter" things I mentioned above and have it driven on icy roads where the tires are slipping 20% of the time at intersections in stop and go traffic. What does that 200km range fall to? 100km? 50km?
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    A little off-topic, but has anyone read any articles that discuss the battery life expectancy with the heater, heated seats, windshield/mirror defrost, full headlights (it's dark alot here in winter) and wheel slip factored in?
    The leaf was offered up to test drive in Vancouver recently:

    http://www.canadiandriver.com/2009/1...le-in-2011.htm

    I saw on a TV review the range will drop a bit from the 160km, but it will still be enough for most commuters (until someone drives it in -40 here though, I guess we won't know exactly how much). They said it was more fun to drive than a Versa, and did fine in the cold weather they were having. And, you can charge it up again each night.

  15. #15

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    I think the Volt is the better option. In the volt the petrol engine is nothing more than a generator that charges the batteries.

    What I don't understand is, if the volts engine is simply a generator, why didn't they use diesel ? Why is North America so adverse to diesel cars?
    Last edited by edmonton daily photo; 16-12-2009 at 04:43 PM.

  16. #16

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    ^The problem with the volt is cost. You pay for two power trains, instead of one, so it will cost more than the Leaf. Also, the battery has to pull that extra weight of the fuel tank and combustion engine. It will be interesting to see how both do though. At some point Nissan could tack a small combustion engine (or one day, a fuel cell) onto its system too, if they think more range is required.

  17. #17

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    I think you can only call the gasoline backup a half powertrain, as it either delivers electricity to the electric motor or the batteries, the engine doesn't power a drive train directly.

    The range is 40 Miles before the engine kicks in. or 60 km.

  18. #18

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    ^which is about what the plug-in prius will do on electric as well. Volt is cool though, the engine is simpler than regular combustion engine as no need to operate at different rev and torque bands. The price of over 40k is a bit scary though for a small four seater, the Leaf should come in closer to 25k and offer 5 passanger room.

  19. #19

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    From Cnet http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-10037173-48.html

    the Volt can slip through about 85 percent of the EPA's test cycle without even firing up the gasoline engine. Using the EPA's standard formulas to calculate fuel economy, the Volt averages over 100 mpg. The EPA doesn't think that astronomical number is fair and has revised its tests with the requirement that the Volt finish the test with its batteries close to full charge, which means the internal combustion engine must run for the entirety of the test, dropping fuel economy to about 48 mpg.
    GM, of course, argues back that the EPA's new test isn't fair because the test isn't representative of the way the Volt was designed to operate and doesn't reflect the Volt's plug-in option for battery charging.
    The truth lies somewhere in between, but the EPA rating assigned will play a big role in whether consumers think the $40,000 Volt is a good deal compared with the Toyota Prius and the upcoming, and even less expensive Honda Insight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^which is about what the plug-in prius will do on electric as well. Volt is cool though, the engine is simpler than regular combustion engine as no need to operate at different rev and torque bands. The price of over 40k is a bit scary though for a small four seater, the Leaf should come in closer to 25k and offer 5 passanger room.
    from what ive been reading the leaf could cost 25k plus the monthly cost of leasing the battery. it all adds up to an expensive car. these ev cars are gonna be serious money losers for the first generation imo.

  21. #21

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    Nissan may not even sell the veh only lease them a la the EV1

  22. #22

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    ^can you source that? Everything I have read is that they will be mass produced and mass sold very soon. The only thing they may lease is the battery, which could be replaced and recycled every 5 years (so auto will get better as batteries get better).

    Initial rollout of the Leaf starts at the end of 2010 with limited sales in the U.S., Japan and Europe and ramps up to mass market sales by 2012. Initial production will begin in Japan with 50,000 units a year capacity. By 2012 Nissan expects to have its Smyrna, Tenn. plant producing as many as 150,000 electric vehicles, including the battery as well.
    At full run, Nissan anticipates enough capacity in North America, Europe and Japan to produce 500,000 electric cars.*
    http://www.businessfleet.com/Blog/Au...est-Drive.aspx
    Last edited by moahunter; 16-12-2009 at 10:48 PM.

  23. #23

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    The $25K-$33K figure I've been reading for the Leaf is also after factoring all of the US Government subsidies into the sticker cost. Without that, the cost would be closer to $45K

    Current LiIon batteries come in at about $700/kWh. $700 x 2400 = $16,800. Amortizing that over 5 years would be over $300/mo.
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  24. #24

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    Should have clarified, I was asking about EV-only cars, without any ICE generators.
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  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^can you source that? Everything I have read is that they will be mass produced and mass sold very soon. The only thing they may lease is the battery, which could be replaced and recycled every 5 years (so auto will get better as batteries get better).

    Initial rollout of the Leaf starts at the end of 2010 with limited sales in the U.S., Japan and Europe and ramps up to mass market sales by 2012. Initial production will begin in Japan with 50,000 units a year capacity. By 2012 Nissan expects to have its Smyrna, Tenn. plant producing as many as 150,000 electric vehicles, including the battery as well.
    At full run, Nissan anticipates enough capacity in North America, Europe and Japan to produce 500,000 electric cars.*
    http://www.businessfleet.com/Blog/Au...est-Drive.aspx
    It was a news program on CBC..

    here is another article..
    According to Brian Carolin, Nissan's marketing executive for North America, the cost of the upcoming Leaf will be equivalent to the monthly cost of a fully loaded Honda Civic, plus the cost of its monthly fuel bill. To simplify pricing Carolin broke it down as such, "That means the purchase price (about $28,000) or comparable monthly payment for a high-end Civic plus the cost of the gasoline it would need to cover 1,200 miles (at 30 MPG and $3/gallon, about $120."

    Well maybe the words of Carolin are not easy to decipher. It appears as though he is trying to say that a Nissan Leaf will run about $120 more per month in payments if the vehicle is financed.

    For example, if a fully loaded Honda Civic can be leased for $319 per month. Adding in a monthly fuel cost of $120 brings the total monthly out of pocket expense to $439. Nissan will either sell or lease the Leaf and its battery at that same price.

    To add even more complicated numbers into the mix, Nissan plans to sell the car minus the battery and then lease the battery for around $120 per month. Additionally, Carolin added," We may sell the car and battery together, we may lease it as a package, or we may sell the car and lease the battery. We just haven't decided yet.
    Last edited by edmonton daily photo; 17-12-2009 at 09:37 AM.

  26. #26

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    Interesting...

    OWNERS CO-OPERATE IN ELECTRIC CAR GARAGE | Modern Mechanix
    http://blog.modernmechanix.com/owner...ic-car-garage/

  27. #27

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    Remember the Wankel? Mazda's little rotary range extender is pretty neat:

    http://www.autonet.ca/en/2013/12/03/...ell-be-a-mazda

    Because it's smooth and silent and, most important, compact and light (100 kg), Mazda has found a way to incorporate a rotary engine in a module that can be fitted behind the rear wheels and under the trunk floor of the electric version of the Mazda2 (called Demio in Japan) subcompact hatchback, to provide an extra 200 kilometers of range, using about 9 liters of gas.

    2.25 l/100 km

    This means that a full charge and a full tank can take the Mazda2 EV as far as 400 kilometers, for an average fuel economy of 2.25 l/100 km. Not bad, considering this is the "worst" fuel economy you can achieve with this vehicle (if you charge if before you empty out the batteries, you don't need to use any fuel).
    I think its interesting, the future seems to be we will have electric cars, and they will be range extended either with clean burning hydrogen engine (or a small gasoline range like this), or a hydrogen fuel cell.

  28. #28

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    Electric cars will reduce noise pollution too. And I expect, central plants for generation can be monitored and pollution far better filtered a lot cheaper too than through individual vehicles.

    People of color live in neighborhoods with more air pollution than whites, groundbreaking U.S. study shows
    Excerpt:

    "A first-of-its-kind study has found that on average in the U.S., people of color are exposed to 38 percent higher levels of nitrogen dioxide outdoor air pollution compared to white people. The health impacts from the difference in levels between whites and nonwhites found in the study are substantial. For example, researchers estimate that if nonwhites breathed the lower NO2 levels experienced by whites, it would prevent 7,000 deaths from heart disease alone among nonwhites each year."

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0415181327.htm

  29. #29
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    Why are US stats always about race

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    It seems that there is zero interest by governments in protecting people from the effects of noise pollution from cars.

  31. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    Why are US stats always about race
    The US produces, like, a TON of stats. Maybe you just notice the race-based ones?
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  32. #32

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    two-in-front electric trike - might work well in downtown Edmonton for deliveries...

    Denmark's Tripl electric motorbike has more cargo space than a Mercedes E-Class estate.

    http://www.bbc.com/autos/story/20150...inks-its-a-van


    http://da.tripl.com


    ~
    Last edited by KC; 26-09-2015 at 06:21 PM.

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    While the DMC-12 isn't electric (sorry you can't use the 1.21 gigawatts from Mr. Fusion to power it) it would be cool if the new versions are ...
    http://arstechnica.com/cars/2016/01/...g-new-dmc-12s/

  34. #34

    Default Why are we still using lame lithium-ion batteries after so many promising alternatives?

    ...

    There are uncountable companies attempting to develop more compact battery technologies — the US government’s ARPA-E department tracks over 75 of them. Some of them even have compelling technologies that show strong results in a laboratory setting. When you improve one aspect of traditional batteries, you often pay for it elsewhere. A battery might be extremely efficient, but its capacity is small; or it might have great energy density, but it breaks down after just a few uses. It’s solving those problems and taking a battery into the commercial realm that trips so many up.

    ...

    Without a substantial increase in energy storage, it’s simply cheaper to continue improving lithium-ion batteries at a snail’s pace. Lithium-ion batteries are better than they once were. Tesla is spending big bucks to churn out batteries at its Gigafactory, some of which are expected to pack up to 100kWh. Engineers have gotten used to designing around the limitations of batteries. It’s cheaper and faster to do that than develop completely new types of batteries that might be better in the long run.

    Many researchers and energy analysts think it’s going to take a radical new chemistry to spur action. That could take decades. In the meantime, the big battery manufacturers are working on features to make the limited capacity of batteries more tolerable. For example, fast charging technologies in smartphones and electric vehicles.Right now, batteries improve at an estimated 5% per year — and while that might not sound like much, a decade of 5% improvements works out to batteries that hold about 1.6x more energy than what we have today. By that standard, a current Tesla Model S would have a nearly-500 mile range if manufactured in 2026.
    http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/2...g-alternatives

  35. #35

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    New innovations though are definitely coming. Like anything else though, few people are risk takers when it comes to their purchase decisions. The producers would produce if only they could get someone to buy.



    Longer life batteries are coming to smartphones next year and novel tech is hitting in places like this:



    A new kind of battery that stores energy from solar and wind power cheaply and cleanly has hit the market. It is by far the cheapest of a new generation of large, long-lived batteries that could make it possible to rely heavily on intermittent, renewable energy sources

    https://www.technologyreview.com/s/5...ts-the-market/

    Smartphones- boring market now but whatever works

    http://www.sciencealert.com/new-smar...rket-next-year
    Last edited by KC; 02-09-2016 at 10:05 AM.

  36. #36

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    ^I don't think you read the article. As it mentions, more than 75 bright ideas / companies tracked by the US government, but the harsh reality is that when you read about these batteries, the promoters of them only tell you about the good aspects, not their flaws. We have been waiting for decades for better batteries. The only truly great breakthrough has been Lithium Ion, and as the article says, it will be a long time, probably not until closer to 2030, before that will change, if ever (because Lithium Ion will keep improving).

  37. #37

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    I think electric cars, and battery tech, are already improving at a fine pace. Consider the internal combustion engine has been around for over a century and they really only started improving their "batteries" (i.e. fuel efficiency) in the latter part of the century.

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    I wonder if the grid, say in Ontario can take it, plus the cost to charge, yikes!

  39. #39

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    Some talk that the next Nissan leaf may massively undercut the Chevy Bolt and Model X on price:

    http://dailysunknoxville.com/next-ge...rice/920014787

    By now, you would have heard of Renault’s plan to release an $8,000 electric vehicle in China and its collaboration with Nissan to share the same electric car platform for the upcoming Leaf/Zoe.

    But, wait. There’s more. Mitsubishi is reported to be joining in on this platform sharing and it is slated to get its own electric car based on this new platform.

    This platform sharing will greatly benefit Nissan as the automaker would be able to reduce the pricing of the future Leaf to about 2 million yen ($17,000), or 20 percent lower than it’s current base price.

    In the US, that would be about $24,500 or $17,000, after federal credit cut, and it would be lower than the current $30,680 MSRP for the entry level 30kWh Leaf, despite the assumption that the next-gen Leaf will be coming with a high base capacity battery for that price.
    Looks a lot nicer than the current leaf:

    Last edited by moahunter; 21-12-2016 at 08:39 AM.

  40. #40
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    Default Tesla Passes Ford in Market Valuation

    Ford, which reported net income over the last five years totaling $26 billion, towers over Tesla on most metrics. Tesla lost $2.3 billion during the same five-year span. Revenue was $151.8 billion last year for Ford, compared with Tesla’s $7 billion.Tesla sold about 40,697 vehicles in the U.S. last year, according to registration data compiled by IHS Markit. Ford delivers that many F-Series trucks about every three weeks.

    But Tesla has long been valued like a technology stock, in part because of what Kallo called Musk’s “star power.” Also the CEO of rocket manufacturer SpaceX, which has grand plans to colonize Mars, Musk has demonstrated his pull on Wall Street. He’s raised about $8 billion from equity and debt offerings since 2010, according to data compiled by Bloomberg.
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...livers-model-3

    Some people compare Elon Musk to Steve Jobs. But keep in mind that Jobs failed in his first go round with Apple.

  41. #41

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    ^its really hard to understand what is going on there. With revenues of only $7b, I don't get how Tesla is going to turn a decent net profit anytime soon. Of course, I could be wrong, maybe the model 3 will be more profitable than the S, maybe the gigafactory will change the industry. Then again, maybe those maybes won't happen.

    And just to rub it in, Ford yesterday, GM today:

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/tesla-gm-ford-1.4054630

    A day after doing the same to Ford, Tesla Motors overtook GM to become the most value valuable car company in the U.S. by market value on Tuesday.

    Tesla shares gained more than one per cent on the Nasdaq on Tuesday, changing hands at just over $300 US a share. That gives the company a total value of $52.7 billion.

    That's more than GM's $49.6 billion valuation. Tesla chief executive Elon Musk says he expects the company to sell 500,000 cars next year. GM, meanwhile, sold more than 20 times that many last year.

    "If you look at the different auto companies on paper, it does seem a bit proposterous, where Tesla is at this moment, versus some of the more established auto companies," Jessica Caldwell, director of industry analysis with automotive research firm Edmunds, said in an interview with CBC's On The Money on Monday.
    Last edited by moahunter; 04-04-2017 at 10:39 AM.

  42. #42

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    But Tesla has long been valued like a technology stock
    That is key really. Over valuated like x, y, z tech/social media companies.

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