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Thread: Valley Line LRT | Downtown to Millwoods | Under Construction

  1. #5901

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    So glad they voted this down.
    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits" - Einstein

  2. #5902

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    Hardly surprised this was turned down....I mean Kingsway and University Ave and 111 St are much bigger issues and we know how those places turned out.

    Anyhow, this wasn't the point in time to revisit the design, this should have been done years ago....like when we brought up this idea on this thread (still don't see why they didn't consider a cut and cover to cross Whyte versus a full blown elevated portion for 10 blocks)...

    In all honesty, being a tram system, the train can wait at certain key intersections like Whyte ave. No need to pre-empt signals for priority.

    Save the elevated designs for our actual LRT portions.

  3. #5903

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    Any word yet which Councillors were in favour and against?

  4. #5904

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    Quote Originally Posted by B.ike View Post
    In all honesty, being a tram system, the train can wait at certain key intersections like Whyte ave. No need to pre-empt signals for priority.
    The current LRT/tram system(as you call it) stops often before century park and clareview, it hasn't hurt ridership. I've been in Toronto subway stopped between stations as well (it wasn't so terrible, I was told it was normal). Depending on how close the station is, it might be possible to time departure as well. Stopping at one or two locations not at stations, just like current LRT, is not the big deal people are making it out to be, LRT is designed to speed up and slow down very fast.
    Last edited by moahunter; 18-04-2017 at 01:47 PM.

  5. #5905

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Let's look at a comparison
    Median family income in Montreal: 75k
    Median family income in Edmonton: 101k

    Premium - 35% - and that's all labor. I think you will find construction in particular, is a lot more expensive in Edmonton.

    http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tabl...il107a-eng.htm

    And like you say, that's just a projected cost. Given its Montreal, it could be a lot more once its built.
    $138M/km vs $88M/km is 57% higher.

    It is not all labor but I will humor your suggestion. [/COLOR]
    If you think it was such a bad deal - why didn't you put in a competitive P3 bid? I'm pretty sure they took the lowest cost of the consortium offers (which those companies based on the cost of construction in Alberta, not Quebec), but heck, we all know you could have done it cheaper with PRT or something else in your imagination...

  6. #5906

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    The current LRT/tram system(as you call it) stops often before century park and clareview, it hasn't hurt ridership. I've been in Toronto subway stopped between stations as well (it wasn't so terrible, I was told it was normal). Depending on how close the station is, it might be possible to time departure as well. Stopping at one or two locations not at stations, just like current LRT, is not the big deal people are making it out to be, LRT is designed to speed up and slow down very fast.
    I was alluding to road traffic concerns - not so much inconvenience to the riders (FWIW I've done my fair share of siting on the Dudley Menzies bridge between Grandin and Uni station). The concern over congestion was what prompted this whole review. Trams in European cities I've visited wait at certain intersections to give priority to traffic on a major road.

    Also I'm calling the low floor system (aka Valley Line) as tram because thats what the rest of the world calls them. (bombardier themselves call LRVs a tram).

    I call our existing system an LRT. I'm not using them interchangeably.

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    I also disagree with the 30 second wait estimate. This will create the exact same problems that have been noted at University Ave, 51st Ave, Whitemud ramps, near Kingsway. And those waits for cars are far over 30 seconds during peak hours.
    Next there is the cost of accidents, cars, LRTs, injury and death costs.
    Next there is a lost benefit of having the LRT travel faster which can move more people faster, attract more people from cars.

  8. #5908

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    Quote Originally Posted by B.ike View Post
    Also I'm calling the low floor system (aka Valley Line) as tram because thats what the rest of the world calls them. (bombardier themselves call LRVs a tram).
    We are getting the Flexity LRV, not the Flexity tram. You might as well call our original LRT a tram as well the Siemens vehicles also operated that way in some markets. The difference is simple, a tram runs in the street with traffic, and LRT runs in its own right of way and just crosses the road at a few locations, no different from any train. The Millwoods system will be virtually identical to the current system - they both run in ROW and cross roads occasionally, they both go through tunnel, the new line also has some elevated sections. The only difference is the barriers won't be as large.

  9. #5909

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    Oops, was hoping for better. It's not only about saving "30 seconds"; at-grade crossings over major roadways compromise the LRTs ability to increase frequency. For comparison, Calgary runs 3 minute peak frequencies on their system. I don't think any of our lines are (or will be) capable of that. Unfortunate

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    It would have been a lot of wasted money that could have gone towards option #4 for Nait instead.
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  11. #5911
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    Or running the Valley further west.

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    Disappointed, but used to it with this council. Can't wait for the election.

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    I think the sad thing is that Edmonton doesn't do well with integrating car, pedestrian, bike and LRT traffic. Put a bike lane on the wrong street, people complain.

    I think the city would do good having a red-light left-turn signal on 83 Street Northbound.
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  14. #5914
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by B.ike View Post
    In all honesty, being a tram system, the train can wait at certain key intersections like Whyte ave. No need to pre-empt signals for priority.
    The current LRT/tram system(as you call it) stops often before century park and clareview, it hasn't hurt ridership. I've been in Toronto subway stopped between stations as well (it wasn't so terrible, I was told it was normal). Depending on how close the station is, it might be possible to time departure as well. Stopping at one or two locations not at stations, just like current LRT, is not the big deal people are making it out to be, LRT is designed to speed up and slow down very fast.
    Unless there is a breakdown, the LRVs on the existing line do not stop between stations and have priority at all intersections at all times. For safety reasons, there are crossing arms and warning bells at all level vehicle and pedestrian crossings.

    This is not overkill. The existing system enables trains to travel between Century Park and Clareview in about the same amount of time (33 minutes) as they will take to travel between Mill Woods and Downtown on the Valley Line.

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  16. #5916

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    ^ gotta agree with Gunter on this one.
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  17. #5917

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    Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. I feel a bit dirty admitting it, but I too gotta side with Lorne here too.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  18. #5918

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    Quote Originally Posted by East McCauley View Post
    Unless there is a breakdown, the LRVs on the existing line do not stop between stations and have priority at all intersections at all times. For safety reasons, there are crossing arms and warning bells at all level vehicle and pedestrian crossings.
    Simply not true - every time I have ridden it (which is quite a few times), it has stopped before Clareview or before Century Park. I don't know why, I'm guessing to get in phase or something.

  19. #5919

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    It stops before there to allow an outbound train to leave the station first.

  20. #5920

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    Gunter makes some good points. This whole Valley Line has been poorly planned from Day 1. Now that Council hasn't approved the elevated section at BD, it's going to be that much more difficult to approve grade separated sections where they'd be appropriate on the west leg.

    Having said that, the line is being built, there's no going back, and the elevated section would have at least made the SE leg workable. This route was approved years ago, before some of the current councillors were elected, so it's not completely their fault. But they had a chance to salvage something here, and they didn't.

  21. #5921

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    ^^Which is necessary because both trains need to use the cross-over to be on the correct side, which is only a conflict because the trains are scheduled to cross one of the major avenues at the same time to reduce impact on the light cycle there.
    There can only be one.

  22. #5922

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    ^ gotta agree with Gunter on this one.
    He nailed every criticism of LRT. I don't agree with is claim that we don't need it, however building it to spite our road infrastructure will be felt for decades. I like boasting about how Edmonton has relatively light traffic, yet every new LRT line makes it worse. That's not how it's supposed to work.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  23. #5923

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    Our city planners really need to decide what they are building. Is it rapid transit or a streetcar? Street cars can operate in their own ROW too. A streetcar has frequent stops. Rapid transit stops less frequently and travels faster.

    Its pretty easy to see the differences when going to a city like San Francisco. Subways, LRT, streetcars, tourist cable cars, trolleys, buses.

  24. #5924

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    So long as City Administration continues to weigh the possible development aspirations along the route higher than the efficiency of the line transit in this town will remain a black hole of money, time & effort.

    Highest fare, lowest fare recovery & a network designed without efficiency in mind, the hallmarks of ETS. I'm sure we'll get it right in 20 years, just as autonomous driving makes our relatively well-planned road network a true asset for modern transportation systems, or would have if we didn't intentionally jack it up to artificially prop up & incentivize mediocre-at-best transit.
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  25. #5925

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    ^ gotta agree with Gunter on this one.
    He nailed every criticism of LRT. I don't agree with is claim that we don't need it, however building it to spite our road infrastructure will be felt for decades. I like boasting about how Edmonton has relatively light traffic, yet every new LRT line makes it worse. That's not how it's supposed to work.
    Pretty sad state of affairs when Gunter can figure out what the COE cannot.

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  26. #5926

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    Where would the extra $220 million have come from this late in the game?
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  27. #5927

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    ^ That's only a guess, it might have been significantly less but since admin didn't get a quote from TransEd Partners we'll never know.

    The extra money could come from delaying the west part of the line for a year or so, or from lopping off the part past WEM that doesn't make much sense.

    Or from a tax increase, or debt.
    There can only be one.

  28. #5928

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    Or perhaps lobbying the NDP for some of the carbon tax revenues earmarked for transit anyways.
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  29. #5929
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    I am quite certain this line will be a success. It will give people all along this line frequent fast, not rapid, public transport to downtown all day seven days a week. It will give them the connectivity and access like no other transportation system we have. We don't need a Go train to help accelerate the development of far off suburbs we need to improve the transportation system within the city. This line has the potential to encourage development whereas our current system is geared to the commuter.
    What makes me furious is council does not want the system to be the best it can be. They had an outcome that they wanted to achieve and made up a story to suit their purpose. The mayor is quote as saying "$220 mil to save a few seconds". Two lies in one we all know this is a grossly inflated figure and since when does 30 seconds become a few. Then to justify their decision they say it will take traffic off the road so it doesn't matter if motorists are delayed. Tell that to the people in Sherwood park who are trying to get downtown.
    This whole exercise was just a core up for the wrong decision they made initially. Making a mistake is not a sin not fixing is.


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  30. #5930

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    Forget Sherwood Park. I had to make a trip from Griesbach to Lendrum earlier this week. The best route was 97, high level, 111. No traffic at all, but I got hung up pretty bad at both NAIT and on 111 St from LRT. Traffic did not impede my progress, the trains did. And other than driving down residential streets, there was no "other route". The same is going to occur at 82nd. Anyone in Argyll, King Edward, and Avonmore that gets groceries at Bonnie Doon is hooped. What detour will they use? Even if they use 75 St, every road back toward the mall still has tracks across it.

    What a mess.
    Last edited by Chmilz; 20-04-2017 at 05:31 PM.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  31. #5931

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    No, no, no... don't worry, it's all gonna be good. They'll only be delayed 30 seconds by the trains... oh, wait, the intersection's failing and will be operating at level F in a few years anyway (so they say, believe them if you will). Well, they can all just use the train... oh, wait, it's a low capacity streetcar, but it'll be high frequency... oh, wait, they won't be able to run high frequencies because of the at-grade crossings.

    Yup, you're right, what a mess...

  32. #5932

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    And the traffic will freaking bad going east and west on 82nd ave so the recommendation is to take alternate routes which are also blocked and increase travel times or take transit which is buses also stuck in the same traffic waiting for slow streetcars going north and south.

    So after the lines opens way later than scheduled as the norm here in River City, then they will realize that they need to elevate the line in Boone Doon and have to make more long detours and even shut the streetcar down through that section until they can rebuild the line.

    Messy, messy and more messy
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 20-04-2017 at 07:36 PM.
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    A colleague of mine was in the area where the initial digging of the line is and she said there's framing going on. Can we get some photos here please?
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  34. #5934

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    Where?
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    I've seen drivers cut through neighbourhoods in South Edmonton to get to their houses, thanks to the LRT. I'd like to see overhead cameras like they have on the busy intersections, so they can adjust the lights.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  36. #5936

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    I am quite certain this line will be a success. It will give people all along this line frequent fast, not rapid, public transport to downtown all day seven days a week. It will give them the connectivity and access like no other transportation system we have. We don't need a Go train to help accelerate the development of far off suburbs we need to improve the transportation system within the city. This line has the potential to encourage development whereas our current system is geared to the commuter.
    What makes me furious is council does not want the system to be the best it can be. They had an outcome that they wanted to achieve and made up a story to suit their purpose. The mayor is quote as saying "$220 mil to save a few seconds". Two lies in one we all know this is a grossly inflated figure and since when does 30 seconds become a few. Then to justify their decision they say it will take traffic off the road so it doesn't matter if motorists are delayed. Tell that to the people in Sherwood park who are trying to get downtown.
    This whole exercise was just a core up for the wrong decision they made initially. Making a mistake is not a sin not fixing is.

    There are some good things about our current city council, but one of the greatest weaknesses or flaws is the tendency not to much scrutinize or question what they are fed by the administration. Some might say they are the most gullible council ever, but I am not sure that is quite right. I think they can be skeptical if they want, but generally choose not to be - perhaps they are just lazy or don't have the mentality of being a watch dog for citizens. A lot of problems could be avoided if they scrutinized the plans, proposals and statements of the city administration more thoroughly, but they don't seem to get that.

    Unfortunately, I am no longer surprised by how this council responds to critical response or alternative proposals from citizens - they are generally ignored or dismissed.

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    I think our more recent councils are better than the ones under Jan Reimer or Cec Purves. One group could complain at the 11th hour, and a project wouldn't go ahead.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  38. #5938

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post

    There are some good things about our current city council, but one of the greatest weaknesses or flaws is the tendency not to much scrutinize or question what they are fed by the administration. Some might say they are the most gullible council ever, but I am not sure that is quite right. I think they can be skeptical if they want, but generally choose not to be - perhaps they are just lazy or don't have the mentality of being a watch dog for citizens. A lot of problems could be avoided if they scrutinized the plans, proposals and statements of the city administration more thoroughly, but they don't seem to get that.

    Unfortunately, I am no longer surprised by how this council responds to critical response or alternative proposals from citizens - they are generally ignored or dismissed.
    I have seen this first hand. I have seen dozens of educated and well informed citizens, including UofA professors and other people with more education than those on City Council, make balanced and well presented arguments that were contrary to the proposals made by the Administration and almost always, the Administration wins. I have suggested for years that the Office of the City Auditor which is a well managed and respected department be expanded to be given the mandate to be City Council's version of the US Congressional Budget Office to get a balanced second opinion with an objective to do proper cost/benefit analysis.

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  39. #5939

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    This thread is typically full of blowhards defending their right to drive without interruption.

    Unfortunately they can have no such right.

    Public transport outweighs all private conveyances.

    Get used to it.

  40. #5940

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    ^ umm, no.

    The 'blowhards' have concerns that the line as designed will not function well, and will impede all modes of transport in the Bonnie Doon area. Bus riders, cyclists, pedestrians, taxi riders and LRT riders will all be affected by this poor design, as will drivers and passengers in private autos as well as commercial traffic.

    I have no intention of 'getting used to' poorly designed and implemented transportation projects in this city.

  41. #5941

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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    This thread is typically full of blowhards defending their right to drive without interruption.

    Unfortunately they can have no such right.

    Public transport outweighs all private conveyances.

    Get used to it.
    Better transit does not mean, cripple all your other opponents.

    ETS/LRT doing a Tonya Harding on City traffic
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  42. #5942

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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    This thread is typically full of blowhards defending their right to drive without interruption.

    Unfortunately they can have no such right.

    Public transport outweighs all private conveyances.

    Get used to it.
    How come people defending safe, protected cycle lanes are "filthy degenerates" while people defending personal conveyance in accordance with public transport are only "blowhards"? Inconsistency notwithstanding, my lord man, you're getting soft. Pretty soon people will only be annoying and pedantic or even selfish..

    Next thing you'll be blowing internet kisses. I rue to see the day.
    Last edited by Replacement; 22-04-2017 at 07:10 AM.
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    We had our Zone A citizen working group update meeting yesterday which went well.

    Some new renderings, station details and schedule update.

    Perhaps the most important update was the extent of construction information/plan for 102ave. Image to follow.
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    I'm not sure if this is within the scope of the LRT, but is there talk of a pedway to the renovated library?
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    ^Why would there be a pedway? The valley line stops right outside at grade.
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    Especially since the library is under renovations until or about phase 1 of Valley gets to Churchill.
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  48. #5948
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    The pedway could connect between the Library and LRT, or the tunnel to City Centre Mall.
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  49. #5949
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    I'm sure the boffins have something superlative in mind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    We had our Zone A citizen working group update meeting yesterday which went well.

    Some new renderings, station details and schedule update.

    Perhaps the most important update was the extent of construction information/plan for 102ave. Image to follow.
    Pedestrian and Cyclist corridor I presume? Or better streetscaping?
    There was no need to change that plaque. We are the City of Champions.

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    http://transedlrt.ca/advisories/41a-...trail-closure/

    Another example of how this project seems to run counter to city plans regarding pedestrian access. (first is Louise Mckinney Park EW trail closed for 4 years - only trail on downtown side of river valley) This trail is closed completely for two and a half months with no alternative way or side route. Go on the road it seems. Guess Vision Zero is only working on vehicular issues and not pedestrian dangers. But for cars we will pave over green area to give you a temporary way out. Sigh!
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    I wonder if construction scaffolding could be placed on the respect bike trail, like office construction.
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  53. #5953

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    Quote Originally Posted by booster View Post
    http://transedlrt.ca/advisories/41a-...trail-closure/

    Another example of how this project seems to run counter to city plans regarding pedestrian access. (first is Louise Mckinney Park EW trail closed for 4 years - only trail on downtown side of river valley) This trail is closed completely for two and a half months with no alternative way or side route. Go on the road it seems. Guess Vision Zero is only working on vehicular issues and not pedestrian dangers. But for cars we will pave over green area to give you a temporary way out. Sigh!
    We'll pave over green areas for cars, and then build a track across that road so those cars can sit there with the pedestrians, wondering if the city actually has any sort of plan.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  54. #5954
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    Valley Line LRT Bridge Construction

    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    I hope that tree sacrifice for a access road was worth it, and we wont have the same fiasco with this as they do downstream with Waterdale.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  56. #5956
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    Upstream

  57. #5957
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    I know, just wondering who was up ready to correct me. Got to keep the conversation going you know
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    Lol

  59. #5959

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    Lol. The humanity.

    Gone but not forgotten. RIP Riverdale lilac bush

    http://globalnews.ca/news/3469279/go...le-lilac-bush/

  60. #5960

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    Was good for a lark
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  61. #5961

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    Oh FFS. Is that lilac on your property? No? Then faff off. If you want a f-ing lilac bush, plant one. These people, the entitlement.
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    COE will repopulate the subdivision so its no big deal. Oh and its not like the lrt is going through somebody'd flag shop or a renovated drug store. Ooops, did I say that out loud?
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    Riverdale has a group of people who are great at getting press.
    Lilacs grow like weeds here.

  64. #5964
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    This is the kind of B. S. that dominated Edmonton politics during the days of Jan Reimer. Nothing ever got done.
    Last edited by The_Cat; 25-05-2017 at 10:04 AM.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    Jan Reimer.

    What a blast from the distant past.

    Remember the beaver pelt flap ?

  66. #5966
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    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  67. #5967
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    Have they begun to lay track yet?
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  68. #5968

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    Track is the least of my worries. Will we have rolling stock?

    Toronto does not and they ordered them 8 years ago!


    INSIDE BOMBARDIER’S DELAYED STREETCAR DELIVERIES
    "NOT IN SERVICE"

    Toronto was supposed to have 121 new streetcars by now. We have received only 35.
    That’s the crux of the problem with the state of the TTC’s $1-billion contract with Bombardier for 204 low-floor Flexity streetcars to be delivered by 2019. Almost eight years into the deal, Bombardier has repeatedly failed to meet its delivery deadlines, demonstrated quality-control problems that have dragged on for years, and promised that improvements that would double or triple the speed of delivery were around the corner.
    In the meantime, the TTC has had to pay millions to keep its old fleet on the road while we wait, and has sometimes been forced to supplement overloaded lines with bus service that draws capacity from other parts of the city. When the old cars break down — sometimes disabling an entire line — people are left standing on street corners in the cold.
    We need those streetcars. And once we get them, we like them and so does the TTC.
    To meet its most recent delivery targets, Bombardier will need to deliver as many cars to Toronto in the next eight months as it has in the past six years combined. And if it succeeds, it will need to deliver almost twice as many next year as it did this year to stay on track.
    The questions are obvious: why should anyone believe they can now do what they have failed to do in the past? And how exactly has this gone so wrong for so long?
    When the TTC signed this contract, it was not supposed to be a risky proposition. This was the largest single order of streetcars in the world, placed with one of the world’s largest manufacturers of those vehicles. The model is customized for Toronto’s system and differs in many ways from others around the world — for example, it has a different track gauge, needs to climb higher slopes and is fully wheelchair accessible — but it is based on a successful product line. For nearly two decades, Bombardier has produced similar new-era, low-floor streetcars in Europe from its plant in Bautzen, Germany, with few detectable problems. Bombardier now boasts it is the most popular light rail vehicle in the world.
    And yet, at its plants in Thunder Bay, Ont., and Sahagun, Mexico, all of that experience and expertise seems to have escaped it.
    “I know it is incredible that a car builder with decades of experience could not pull a credible schedule together,” Stephen Lam, the head of TTC’s streetcar department, wrote in an email to fellow executives in June 2015 obtained by the Star through a freedom-of-information request, saying the company had demonstrated itself to be “just incapable of sticking to a plan.”
    Among the key themes that emerged:

    • A failure to properly plan and design vehicles to fulfil the contract’s terms and meet the TTC’s demands. (more)
    • Persistent manufacturing quality issues. (more)
    • An inability to co-ordinate a global production line. (more)
    • An inability to manage a supply chain. (more)
    • A tin ear to public and government partner concerns, particularly puzzling coming from a company whose customers are public agencies and which has received government bailouts. (more)
    • Repeated failure to properly diagnose problems to be able to set and meet a revised schedule. (more)
    Read the whole 10,000 word investigative report. Read it and weep... http://projects.thestar.com/bombardier-ttc/
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

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    Hueman said he doesn’t expect the 26 LRT cars to be delayed, even though supplier Bombardier is facing major delays for similar cars in Toronto. That city ordered custom cars to fit a specific rail spacing or track gauge, he said. Edmonton’s are standard cars. The first four or five cabs have already been built.
    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/local-news/construction-on-all-13-kilometres-of-valley-line-track-hits-edmonton-this-summer
    “Canada is the only country in the world that knows how to live without an identity,”-Marshall McLuhan

  70. #5970
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    26 cars (assuming two-car trains and 13 km of track) means a train every two km.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  71. #5971
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    Hueman said he doesn’t expect the 26 LRT cars to be delayed, even though supplier Bombardier is facing major delays for similar cars in Toronto. That city ordered custom cars to fit a specific rail spacing or track gauge, he said. Edmonton’s are standard cars. The first four or five cabs have already been built.
    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/local-news/construction-on-all-13-kilometres-of-valley-line-track-hits-edmonton-this-summer
    Yes, different situation but I share Edmonton PRT's concerns in this. I smell a huge lawsuit looming if the cars aren't delivered.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  72. #5972
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Cat View Post
    26 cars (assuming two-car trains and 13 km of track) means a train every two km.
    I could be wrong but I think they are single seven segment cars about twice the length of the current stock.
    “Canada is the only country in the world that knows how to live without an identity,”-Marshall McLuhan

  73. #5973

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    ^^ Edmonton has a odious 'track' record of transit project issues and many of the large transportation projects like bridges have been legendary fiasco's.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  74. #5974
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    ^ Waterdale, Groat just to name a few. Don't get me wrong PRT, I'm in favour of this project. What gives me pause is the full delivery of the cars for this project. We all know the TransEd basics, yada, yada, yada, cars, project timelines, bla, bla, bla. Still I'm not very confident in Bombardier knowing their well documented history.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  75. #5975

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    ^ Waterdale, Groat just to name a few. Don't get me wrong PRT, I'm in favour of this project. What gives me pause is the full delivery of the cars for this project. We all know the TransEd basics, yada, yada, yada, cars, project timelines, bla, bla, bla. Still I'm not very confident in Bombardier knowing their well documented history.
    They dropped the ball on the TTC stuff, but they have a long history of also delivering on time. Perhaps you need to check your sources of 'well documented history'. While it is too long to list here, here is a list of lines they have supplied for: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombar...s_and_services

  76. #5976

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    Here is a well documented history.


    Bombardier Inc’s problems go far beyond planes: How a failure to deliver streetcars on time has ripple effects across Canada https://www.google.ca/amp/business.f...oss-canada/amp

    Edmonton Transit’s Quinn Nicholson recently toured a few excavation projects under a main east-west artery in Toronto where a 19-kilometre light rail train will eventually run beginning in 2021. But one thing was missing from the spokesman’s tour of this $5.3-billion project, the largest transit expansion in Toronto’s history: the train.

    London’s city council has lambasted Bombardier Inc. for “duping” the British capital into awarding it a train-signalling contract that it was incapable of delivering, creating “nothing short of a disaster” for the London Underground. Continue reading.

    Bombardier Inc. had agreed to deliver the prototype five-segment light rail vehicle for this line under Eglinton Ave. 18 months ago. Toronto is still waiting.

    These delays hit home for Nicholson, since Edmonton recently inked a deal with Bombardier to deliver the trains for its Valley Line, which broke ground last month with a target to open in 2020. “Obviously, the citizens of Edmonton have been watching the situation in Ontario with some trepidation,” he said.

    They have reason to worry. The delay in Toronto is just one part of a huge production snafu for Montreal-based Bombardier, which blames supply chain issues for epic delays in delivering vehicles from its plant in Thunder Bay, Ont. Those problems appear set to ripple across the country. Altogether, six rapid transit systems across Canada have ordered trains from troubled Bombardier Transportation.
    Sept 2016
    S&P Global Ratings has moved Bombardier Inc.’s debt rating deeper into speculative territory, downgrading it to B-minus from B after the company cut its 2016 CSeries delivery forecast in half.
    The inside story behind the bungled Bombardier C Series
    The C Series has a lot going for it, but management missteps have brought Bombardier to the brink
    https://www.google.ca/amp/www.maclea...-c-series/amp/

    List of C Series orders and deliveries.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...and_deliveries



    And to top it off
    Bombardier delays most executive pay hikes amid rise in public anger
    https://www.google.ca/amp/s/sec.theg...Fservice%3Damp
    Bombardier Inc. is postponing most of its planned pay hikes to six top executives in the face of widespread public outrage and growing pressure from across the political spectrum in Quebec.

    The about-face came in the wake of renewed signs of public anger over the hefty hikes. About 200 protesters descended outside Bombardier’s headquarters in downtown Montreal on Sunday to criticize the increases, which were characterized as “inappropriate” and “indecent” in light of taxpayer aid and company layoffs. The Canadian plane and train maker had awarded five top executives and executive chairman Pierre Beaudoin $32.6-million (U.S.) last year, a nearly 50-per-cent increase from the year before.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  77. #5977
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Here is a well documented history.

    London’s city council has lambasted Bombardier Inc. for “duping” the British capital into awarding it a train-signalling contract that it was incapable of delivering, creating “nothing short of a disaster” for the London Underground. Continue reading.
    So we aren't the only city in the world that had got duped on signalling...

    We get it, Bombardier has a checkered past and on-going issues. By all accounts Edmonton's cars are already in production and scheduled to be delivered around 2 years prior to line service.
    Is this going to be a daily thing for the next year until the first train gets put in the garage that maybe Bambardier is dropping or will drop the ball?

    In 2019 you can look back and say "I told you so", though I'm not sure who you are saying it to? The City (and anyone who cares) is already well aware of the potential issue.

  78. #5978
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    ^^ Edmonton PRT: Thanks. Not much time this afternoon to answer #5979 (way too much to read )

    ^ Dan C. Thanks for the education. Yours truly is never that petty to say "I told you so."
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  79. #5979

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    SLRT told ya so? Check
    Nait LRT told ya so? Check
    SELRT told ya so? Pending

  80. #5980

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    Oh Medwards! Don't keep score...
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  81. #5981

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Oh Medwards! Don't keep score...
    PRT 216

    COE 1

    Undetermined 2



    There's money in betting against the City. I tells ya.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  82. #5982

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Oh Medwards! Don't keep score...
    C2E 21,614

    COE 1

    Undetermined 2



    There's money in betting against the City. I tells ya.
    Corrected that for you...
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  83. #5983
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    I wonder about the retaining wall on Connors Road. How stable will the fill be north of Connors? Should they build another wall on the ski hill as well?
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  84. #5984
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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    ^ Waterdale, Groat just to name a few. Don't get me wrong PRT, I'm in favour of this project. What gives me pause is the full delivery of the cars for this project. We all know the TransEd basics, yada, yada, yada, cars, project timelines, bla, bla, bla. Still I'm not very confident in Bombardier knowing their well documented history.
    A little off topic but wow what a coincidence. Literally, as I was reading your comment, I was watching the Seinfeld episode "The Yada Yada". Crazy coincidence!

  85. #5985
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    ^ LOL.

    I'll be a believer when I see the cars on the tracks on opening day.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  86. #5986

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    ^ LOL.

    I'll be a believer when I see the cars on the tracks on opening day.
    and moving faster than 15K/hr and without a bunch of clipboards standing there watching all the switches and signals...

    I'm thankful COE is at arms length on this project. That can only be a good thing.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  87. #5987

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    ^ LOL.

    I'll be a believer when I see the cars on the tracks on opening day.
    I'm willing to bet that if you don't see cars on the tracks, it won't be opening day. lol

  88. #5988

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    snip
    So, two cases out of 100's when it comes to rail directly and then quoting a separate arm of the company that has nothing to do with rail? Not exactly compelling and overwhelming evidence. But hey, continue the cherry picking all you want. I heard Fox News is hiring.

  89. #5989

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    If things were going so rosy at Bombardier, why oh why has their credit rating been dropped and they need multiple government handouts?
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  90. #5990

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    If things were going so rosy at Bombardier, why oh why has their credit rating been dropped and they need multiple government handouts?
    Because in the Aerospace industry, most new planes lose money for the first several years of manufacturing, and therefore its Aerospace arm, Bombardier doesn't really have any previous products to offset the said losses of entering into the mainstream passenger jet industry. They spent $5.4 billion on development of the CSeries up to 2015. I mean, they wrote off $3.2 billion, which isn't terribly surprising. Other aircraft manufacturers, have a long history of losing money initially on new jets. Unfortunately for Bombardier, they don't have as much of a cushion.

    Bombardier took orders of $8.5 billion for the 2016 FY, and have a backlog of $30.1 billion just for Bombardier Transportation. Yes, the TTC cars are part of that backlog, and make up $1.2 billion, but that is guaranteed, it is the option to purchase extra cars amidst the debacle of the backlog that is at issue. The option is for 60 additional cars at $361 million. Regardless, that is 3.9% of their backlog on the Transportation end. You can read more of their financial report starting at page 83 here: http://ir.bombardier.com/modules/mis...rt-2016-en.pdf.

    While things aren't rosy in their Aerospace division, the entire company isn't really belly up at all, and suggesting it is, would be hyperbole.

  91. #5991

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    credit rating = hyperbole

    Got it! Thx
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  92. #5992

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    credit rating = hyperbole

    Got it! Thx
    Did you even read what I said? Their credit rating isn't indicative of the entire company. Jesus man. Wait wait, how does this work?

    I just write thx? Thx!

  93. #5993
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    Quote Originally Posted by lat View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    ^ LOL.

    I'll be a believer when I see the cars on the tracks on opening day.
    I'm willing to bet that if you don't see cars on the tracks, it won't be opening day. lol
    Yeah, like way latter then opening day
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  94. #5994

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    ^The point being they can't have an opening day without trains. No trains= No opening. The first day you see trains with passengers will be opening day, whether it's on schedule, early or late.
    There can only be one.

  95. #5995

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    *touches nose*
    Last edited by lat; 02-06-2017 at 12:48 PM.

  96. #5996
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    Looks like all hell breaks loose at 83 Street and 95 Avenue June 26.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  97. #5997

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moodib View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    If things were going so rosy at Bombardier, why oh why has their credit rating been dropped and they need multiple government handouts?
    Because in the Aerospace industry, most new planes lose money for the first several years of manufacturing, and therefore its Aerospace arm, Bombardier doesn't really have any previous products to offset the said losses of entering into the mainstream passenger jet industry. They spent $5.4 billion on development of the CSeries up to 2015. I mean, they wrote off $3.2 billion, which isn't terribly surprising. Other aircraft manufacturers, have a long history of losing money initially on new jets. Unfortunately for Bombardier, they don't have as much of a cushion.

    Bombardier took orders of $8.5 billion for the 2016 FY, and have a backlog of $30.1 billion just for Bombardier Transportation. Yes, the TTC cars are part of that backlog, and make up $1.2 billion, but that is guaranteed, it is the option to purchase extra cars amidst the debacle of the backlog that is at issue. The option is for 60 additional cars at $361 million. Regardless, that is 3.9% of their backlog on the Transportation end. You can read more of their financial report starting at page 83 here: http://ir.bombardier.com/modules/mis...rt-2016-en.pdf.

    While things aren't rosy in their Aerospace division, the entire company isn't really belly up at all, and suggesting it is, would be hyperbole.
    Why is the aerospace industry so heavily subsidized and as it is perhaps it needs to die. The last thing any country should want is to support a private firm in the worst type of return industry found anywhere.

    Why should Canadians care that Bombardier is in the Aerospace industry? Does it make Canada look any better to have such a chronically failing organization be high profile in this type of industry?
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  98. #5998

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    ^you are diverting the thread re Aerospace - we have bombardier threads on that. I'm not a fan at all of Bombardier, but aside from the TTC situation (which seems very unique re what TTC wanted, not off the shelf like Edmonton is getting), and London signaling (everyone seems to mess up signaling when historical systems are integrated with modern), generally I think its a very good thing if the jobs are in Canada. Unlike the aerospace, and aside from that one bad contract in Toronto, Bombardiers rail division is a Canadian success story, and these Flexity trains run extremely well in LRT systems all over the world. Lets see if they deliver, I think they will, because under the P3 it will kill them if they don't.
    Last edited by moahunter; 07-06-2017 at 08:57 AM.

  99. #5999

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^you are diverting the thread re Aerospace - we have bombardier threads on that. I'm not a fan at all of Bombardier, but aside from the TTC situation (which seems very unique re what TTC wanted, not off the shelf like Edmonton is getting), and London signaling (everyone seems to mess up signaling when historical systems are integrated with modern), generally I think its a very good thing if the jobs are in Canada. Unlike the aerospace, and aside from that one bad contract in Toronto, Bombardiers rail division is a Canadian success story, and these Flexity trains run extremely well in LRT systems all over the world. Lets see if they deliver, I think they will, because under the P3 it will kill them if they don't.
    How am I diverting when I just made one response to an ongoing sidebar OTHER posters were having on the subject?

    One of the biggest obvious considerations in this line is whether we get rolling stock on this line ontime. Its not at all OT to the thread imo.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  100. #6000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^you are diverting the thread re Aerospace - we have bombardier threads on that. I'm not a fan at all of Bombardier, but aside from the TTC situation (which seems very unique re what TTC wanted, not off the shelf like Edmonton is getting), and London signaling (everyone seems to mess up signaling when historical systems are integrated with modern), generally I think its a very good thing if the jobs are in Canada. Unlike the aerospace, and aside from that one bad contract in Toronto, Bombardiers rail division is a Canadian success story, and these Flexity trains run extremely well in LRT systems all over the world. Lets see if they deliver, I think they will, because under the P3 it will kill them if they don't.
    How am I diverting when I just made one response to an ongoing sidebar OTHER posters were having on the subject?

    One of the biggest obvious considerations in this line is whether we get rolling stock on this line ontime. Its not at all OT to the thread imo.
    You're right this is on topic and something of a concern at least in the backs of minds by most Canadians. There were assurances made during Iveson's facebook live thing a few months ago that the city, construction companies, and financiers all were doing periodic inspections at Bombardier to ensure that production targets are being met as they go along. One thing that wasn't answered however was what happens if the schedule falls of it's tracks?
    There was no need to change that plaque. We are the City of Champions.

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