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Thread: Gondolas across the River Valley as part of the LRT System

  1. #1

    Default Gondolas across the River Valley as part of the LRT System

    What about a gondola from Whyte Ave. by 103 St. over the End of Steel Park down to Telus Field Baseball Park with a station there and then up the 103 St. Hill to connect at the LRT Bay Station?
    Breezy Brian Gregg

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    Default Re: Gondolas across the River Valley as part of the LRT Syst

    Quote Originally Posted by Breezy_Bri
    What about a gondola from Whyte Ave. by 103 St. over the End of Steel Park down to Telus Field Baseball Park with a station there and then up the 103 St. Hill to connect at the LRT Bay Station?
    I love it.

    "Wish I thought of that"

    Maybe you can stretch the "ride" a bit to follow the river for a while. Doesn't need to be part of the transit system - maybe just an attraction of sorts. Either way, good idea.
    Chump

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    I think there needs to be a few inclined railways built, or outdoor escalators built to get people to and from the river valley to Strathcona and downtown. Maybe not a gondola per say, but some sort of way to move people in the area car free.

    Personally I also think the city needs to start a water taxi/river gondola service from Hawrelak Park to Rafters Landing and possibly to Rundle Park as well. That would get tourists and average citizens to use the parks more for at least 6-8 months per year..

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    how about nixing things like this in favour of LRT or new roads...i love creative ideas, but we need to put all we can into an expanded LRT.
    www.decl.org

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    LRT should be one of the biggest priorities for Edmonton when it comes to public transportation, but I think there is room for some of these ideas.

    For one thing, I'd love to see a much more permanent and noticable station for the street car that already travels from behind the barns to Jasper Ave over the high level bridge.

    Regarding a gondola or people mover, whatever it may be, I think it should originate from 82 Ave or from that same station I mentioned about for the street car. I believe it needs to be pretty close to whyte ave for people to really want to use it.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

  6. #6
    grish
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    hey! check out River Valley Tours by cable car i would live this to be more of a tourist thing, but also provide another transit means. Ian, this idea is more for the scenery, not meant to take away from LRT. (unless people mean it to be the transportation method for crossing the river in which case--build a bridge and/or develop LRT)

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    Quote Originally Posted by grish
    hey! check out River Valley Tours by cable car i would live this to be more of a tourist thing, but also provide another transit means. Ian, this idea is more for the scenery, not meant to take away from LRT. (unless people mean it to be the transportation method for crossing the river in which case--build a bridge and/or develop LRT)
    I might prefer it if it was more of a tourist / relax and enjoy the view thing. Not sure how feasible as part of transit.

    Regarding nixing this for LRT, you could say that about every non-LRT idea posted in this forum

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by grish
    hey! check out River Valley Tours by cable car i would live this to be more of a tourist thing, but also provide another transit means. Ian, this idea is more for the scenery, not meant to take away from LRT. (unless people mean it to be the transportation method for crossing the river in which case--build a bridge and/or develop LRT)
    I checked it out grish. I guess I am not the only one thinking about Gondolas but I am thinking about the tourist angle as secondary. I am thinking of it as part of the LRT system. Rapid transit from downtown to the baseball stadium and to Whyte ave. You could move a lot of people quickly acroos the river and back and I would bet it would cost less than building a new bridge. I wonder who knows the relative costs. I do know tunnels and bridges are expensive.
    Breezy Brian Gregg

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    they are expensive, but not as expensive as gondolas that fit cars and trucks. they too want to cross the river as quickly as possible.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by grish
    they are expensive, but not as expensive as gondolas that fit cars and trucks. they too want to cross the river as quickly as possible.
    if we just stick to Gondolas for people and maybe their bikes and forget about trying to put cars and trucks on too, we would need less busses on the bridges leaving more room for trucks and cars.
    Breezy Brian Gregg

  11. #11

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    Neat idea, but let's keep it strictly tourist-y. A la Louis McKinney Park or something. Not part of a staple transit system.

    Send the money to an expanded LRT.

  12. #12

    Default rapid transit alternatives

    Quote Originally Posted by onishenko
    Neat idea, but let's keep it strictly tourist-y. A la Louis McKinney Park or something. Not part of a staple transit system.

    Send the money to an expanded LRT.
    why keep it strictly tourist-y ?
    I think the idea of the LRT is to get people quickly and effeciently around the city. I am just suggesting that trains are not always the answer. With our river valley you have to deal with expensive construction of tunnels and bridges. The gondola that I am proposing is a direct route conecting the centre of Old Strathcona to the baseball stadium and to Bay Station on Jasper ave. I would like to see an engineer's comment on the relative costs of a gondola link compared to a rail link at this location. The other advantage of a gondola for this location vs rail is that you pretty well get to leave whats on the ground alone. As I said in the post above it would take busses off the bridges connecting to downtown and leave more room for trucks and cars. If you look at a map the right of way is pretty clear. Right now our LRT is one line. Most urban centres with rapid transit have branches. I don't know how old you are or how long you have lived in Edmonton but one thing that irks me from the past is that when CN closed and sold their downtown rail yard the city let it go. There was a rail right of way all the way from down town to St. Albert. The rails were there and everything. All that development Mac Ewan College, Oliver Square, etc. could have been built over the rail line. Now if we want LRT to St. Albert we have to take out roads and houses or tunnel. Before I could try and speak up about the lack of forsight in that move it was a done deal. I'm so glad now this C2e is happening. It gives more of a chance for people to present views on how the city develops.

    I wonder what is going to happen to the CP rail yards in Old Strathcona. Will it eventually be closed and sold and be covered in condos and then we will dig a tunnel under them to the airport ?

    It is the logical place to run rail service south and the Gondola I have suggested in this post topic, is the link between downtown and an eventual line to the airport.

    When we are considering how and where to spend money I think it is important to look at what we want to acomplish in the end and I think here that means transporting people quickly and effeciently.
    Breezy Brian Gregg

  13. #13

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    Gondola possibility for Calgary is up in the air
    *
    *
    BY RICHARD CUTHBERTSON, POSTMEDIA NEWS FEBRUARY 15, 2012
    *
    "CALGARY — An advocate of bringing ski hill transportation to the congested urban setting says gondolas may be Calgary's solution to fill in the gaps in its public transit system..."

    "...Jen Malzer said a gondola system can start as low as $5 million per kilometre, while the same stretch of LRT typically runs between $20 million and $80 million, depending on the configuration..."


    http://www.canada.com/Gondola+possib...512/story.html

    see this earlier discussion...
    http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/forum...read.php?t=527
    Last edited by KC; 16-02-2012 at 05:50 AM.

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    This might be an old idea getting a new coat of paint, but I wonder how much use it would get.

    I was thinking of a gondola connecting South Campus Station to the Whitemud Equine Centre, with another spur to Fort Edmonton, and another to Valley Zoo and Hawrelak Park.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    Why would we need that?

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    Okay, maybe like South Campus-Whitemud Equine-Valley Zoo. I could see a few benefits:

    (1) Water taxis could operate in the vicinity of Fort Edmonton-Hawrelak Park during the summer months.
    (2) Another connection from South Edmonton to West Edmonton. How many transfers downtown would that save?
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  17. #17

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    This is a city not Disneyland.

  18. #18

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    You do realize we have regular transit service that goes between WEM and South Campus, which includes stops in both directions right at fort edmonton? We also have a seasonal bus that takes people on the hour to/from south campus directly to the entrance of fort edmonton...

    http://webdocs.edmonton.ca/transit/r...ture/RT595.pdf.

    http://webdocs.edmonton.ca/transit/r...ture/RT004.pdf

    http://webdocs.edmonton.ca/transit/r...ture/RT106.pdf

    https://www.edmonton.ca/transportati...p_Feb_2018.pdf
    Last edited by Medwards; 05-03-2018 at 12:51 PM.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by K364 View Post
    This is a city not Disneyland.
    Gondola above Boston proposed for city commuters
    Feb 28, 2018

    http://www.wcvb.com/article/gondola-...uters/18922276

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    The North Saskatchewan gondola wins best idea:

    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...t-live-tonight
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  21. #21

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    It has been 12 years since this was first proposed.

    In other countries, far less developed than Canada, in the past 12 years they have built efficient and effective, world class urban aerial tramways that are expanding as a comprehensive transit network with high ridership levels.

    (REPOSTED)

    11 urban gondolas changing the way people move

    https://www.curbed.com/2017/9/21/163...le-cars-cities
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mi_Telef%C3%A9rico









    One of the longest and most developed cable car systems in the world, the Mi Teleférico first opened in 2014 to connect the rich valley city of La Paz with the neighboring, much poorer hill-top city of El Alto. At 10 km long, the gondolas have helped to reduce travel time, traffic, and pollution.

    The Gondola Project reports that the Mi Teleférico has transported 50 million passengers in 2 years of operations and saved commuters 652 million minutes. The project was so successful that the city is now planning to build 7 more lines that will extend the system by 20 km. According to the New York Times, La Paz is the first city to use cable cars as the "backbone of a mass-transit system."


    Meanwhile, back in River City we just talk...
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 07-03-2018 at 06:50 AM.
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    Love it! Let's get it done.
    www.decl.org

    Ottawa-Edmonton-Vancouver-Edmonton

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    I think crowdfunding could help.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Love it! Let's get it done.
    I see that your opinion on this idea has reversed 180 degrees.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  25. #25

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    I like the idea but it’s like solar and wind - great when working but not always working. If people can accept some degree of unreliablilty yet still flock to it when it’s workkng that’s great, it would make a cool addition to the city.

    Those other cities have millions of people and possibly horrible alternative systems.

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    And do I see news stories that it is effected by -20 degree weather and blowing snow will not let the doors open / close ?
    Go ahead, speed pass me... I'll meet you at the next red light.

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Love it! Let's get it done.
    I see that your opinion on this idea has reversed 180 degrees.
    A change opinion is a sign of intelligence. Not sure what pointing out people’s changing opinions is a sign of. Probably nothing good.

  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry N View Post
    And do I see news stories that it is effected by -20 degree weather and blowing snow will not let the doors open / close ?
    Ever thought that these things are used at ski hills at the tops of mountains?

    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 07-03-2018 at 08:15 AM.
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  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Love it! Let's get it done.
    I see that your opinion on this idea has reversed 180 degrees.
    A change opinion is a sign of intelligence. Not sure what pointing out people’s changing opinions is a sign of. Probably nothing good.
    Was I being negative? I applaud that IanO, who was negative to the idea in 2006, is now being positive.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    hey! check out River Valley Tours by cable car i would live this to be more of a tourist thing, but also provide another transit means. Ian, this idea is more for the scenery, not meant to take away from LRT. (unless people mean it to be the transportation method for crossing the river in which case--build a bridge and/or develop LRT)
    Updated the link:

    2006
    river-valley tours by cable car
    http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/showt...s-by-cable-car

    If you want to see what negativity looks like check out the vote!

    2006
    Cheaper, Faster Transit: Aerial Tram
    http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/showt...it-Aerial-Tram

    2006
    Some ideas - brilliant and whacky
    Excerpt:
    “5. Instead of some silly gondola from Jasper Ave to the new McKinney Park, would it be feasible to tunnel a pedway from the Shaw or Canada Place to the park, or across the street from it?”
    http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/showt...ant-and-whacky

    2009
    River Valley Gondola - Bridging the City
    http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/showt...dging-the-City


    2012
    Gondolas for Edmonton?
    http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/showt...s-for-Edmonton
    Last edited by KC; 07-03-2018 at 08:37 AM.

  31. #31

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    ^^
    The Peak 2 Peak Gondola is a tri-cable gondola lift located in Whistler, British Columbia is the first lift to join the two side-by-side mountains. It held the world record for the longest free span between ropeway towers—3.03 kilometres (1.88 miles) until 2017 when the Eibsee Cable Car exceeded it by 189m. It is still the highest point above the ground—436 metres (1,430 feet.) The Peak 2 Peak Gondola was built by the Doppelmayr Garaventa Group in 2007 and 2008 at a cost of CDN$51 million.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_2_Peak_Gondola

    Statistics
    Length: 4.4 km/2.73 mi
    Capacity: 4,100 people per hour
    Line Speed: 27 km/hr (16.8 miles per hour)
    Ride Time: 11 minutes

    4.4 kilometers for $51M in very difficult to access terrain. $11.6 M/kilometer.

    I am just waiting for the COE Administration to poo-poo the idea as impractical, would cost a gadzillion dollars and take 100 years to build.

    ...and yes, there are wheelchair accessible gondolas.


    BTW, I WANT THIS!


    https://www.stanserhorn.ch/en/travel/cabrio/

    Rooftop access. Imagine crossing the river with a spectacular view from the roof of Edmonton's best transit system.

    COE Administration worries about suicide risk...

    Waiting for Moa to worry about fires and (insert disaster here)...
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 07-03-2018 at 08:44 AM.
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  32. #32

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    ^Cost 28.1M. You want to cry when you see something like that.

    WE can't have great things here apparently. What a fantastic experience that rooftop cable car would be.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  33. #33

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    EPRT must have a massive woody this morning.

  34. #34

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    envious?
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  35. #35

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    Wonderful, something else that'll keep breaking down.

  36. #36

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    No, the reliability of these systems are very high.*


    * as long as the COE has no fingers in the system...


    • Suggest a private company bid on a RFP to build, operate and maintain the system.
    • Fares integrated into the ETS system and fully transferable.
    • Land required on a COE 99 year lease arrangement at no cost to winning bidder.
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 07-03-2018 at 10:11 AM.
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    I just wanted to say a personal congrats to Gary and Amber. Whether or not this idea gets built, they put their energy and passion behind an idea and saw it through this competition. They are great folks, and a pleasure to work with. They have worked hard on other initiatives and it is refreshing to see one start to pay off for them.
    Tired of being taken advantage of .

  38. #38

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    I have a question. Did the committee factor in cost when it came to the selections? I mean, it's one thing to come up with a great idea. But it's another to come up with one that is actually cost-effective and feasible in terms of actually getting the millions and millions in funding and capital to make it work.

  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by River Valley Green View Post
    I have a question. Did the committee factor in cost when it came to the selections? I mean, it's one thing to come up with a great idea. But it's another to come up with one that is actually cost-effective and feasible in terms of actually getting the millions and millions in funding and capital to make it work.
    I think there’s a lot of subjectivity, randomness and random luck to such funding. Then in terms of seeking cost effectiveness - that’s really a secondary consideration in the real world of infrastructure spending. Take the Anthony Henday: Was it proven that it would be cost effective before it was funded?

    I also seem to recall an overpass being built by South Edmonton Common that cost well over $200 million and some of the discussions seriously revolved around what our city looked like with the problems and the lower cost solutions proposed. (Basically cost didn’t matter in that decision - until after the bills came in). Then there’s any added costs in our new “signature” bridge in the river valley over what a basic run of the mill bridge would have cost.

    So the reality is that the priority given to cost-effectiveness always varies by project and the values of the citizens and decision makers of the day. Many things in our city are likely money losers yet we love them and don’t question or criticize the losses. On other expenditures cost recovery is quite arbitrarily deemed paramount and entirely different qualitative and quantitative assessments are made of those expenditures.
    Last edited by KC; 07-03-2018 at 10:55 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Love it! Let's get it done.
    I see that your opinion on this idea has reversed 180 degrees.
    2006 is awhile ago, things change as do plans and needs.
    www.decl.org

    Ottawa-Edmonton-Vancouver-Edmonton

  41. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by River Valley Green View Post
    I have a question. Did the committee factor in cost when it came to the selections? I mean, it's one thing to come up with a great idea. But it's another to come up with one that is actually cost-effective and feasible in terms of actually getting the millions and millions in funding and capital to make it work.
    I think there’s a lot of subjectivity, randomness and random luck to such funding. Then in terms of seeking cost effectiveness - that’s really a secondary consideration in the real world of infrastructure spending. Take the Anthony Henday: Was it proven that it would be cost effective before it was funded?

    I also seem to recall an overpass being built by South Edmonton Common that cost well over $200 million and some of the discussions seriously revolved around what our city looked like with the problems and the lower cost solutions proposed. (Basically cost didn’t matter in that decision - until after the bills came in). Then there’s any added costs in our new “signature” bridge in the river valley over what a basic run of the mill bridge would have cost.

    So the reality is that the priority given to cost-effectiveness always varies by project and the values of the citizens and decision makers of the day. Many things in our city are likely money losers yet we love them and don’t question or criticize the losses. On other expenditures cost recovery is quite arbitrarily deemed paramount and entirely different qualitative and quantitative assessments are made of those expenditures.
    Yes, but what about this contest specifically? How much is the estimated cost of the gondola concept compared to the advent festival or saunas or treehouse? It seems a lot more. It just seems unfair to have a contest like this unless everyone has the same cost limitations to work within.

  42. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by River Valley Green View Post
    I have a question. Did the committee factor in cost when it came to the selections? I mean, it's one thing to come up with a great idea. But it's another to come up with one that is actually cost-effective and feasible in terms of actually getting the millions and millions in funding and capital to make it work.
    I think there’s a lot of subjectivity, randomness and random luck to such funding. Then in terms of seeking cost effectiveness - that’s really a secondary consideration in the real world of infrastructure spending. Take the Anthony Henday: Was it proven that it would be cost effective before it was funded?

    I also seem to recall an overpass being built by South Edmonton Common that cost well over $200 million and some of the discussions seriously revolved around what our city looked like with the problems and the lower cost solutions proposed. (Basically cost didn’t matter in that decision - until after the bills came in). Then there’s any added costs in our new “signature” bridge in the river valley over what a basic run of the mill bridge would have cost.

    So the reality is that the priority given to cost-effectiveness always varies by project and the values of the citizens and decision makers of the day. Many things in our city are likely money losers yet we love them and don’t question or criticize the losses. On other expenditures cost recovery is quite arbitrarily deemed paramount and entirely different qualitative and quantitative assessments are made of those expenditures.
    Totally agree. Different rules for different projects. I will add that if the COE Administration is behind it, the numbers do not matter and if someone asks, they can create numbers out of thin air.

    Want to get the project idea started and approved, send a half dozen COE Administration people and 3 Councilors to Bolivia and BANG!, the best idea since sliced bread...


    An aerial gondola with a practical public transit alternative goal is sorely needed. IMHO, it should run from Rexall to Whyte Ave is a straight line south would be a fantastic first step. If proved successful, then the same manufacturer/operator could be rewarded with a line from the UofA to Bonnie Doon Mall. Then a West Edmonton line from DT to WEM.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  43. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by River Valley Green View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by River Valley Green View Post
    I have a question. Did the committee factor in cost when it came to the selections? I mean, it's one thing to come up with a great idea. But it's another to come up with one that is actually cost-effective and feasible in terms of actually getting the millions and millions in funding and capital to make it work.
    I think there’s a lot of subjectivity, randomness and random luck to such funding. Then in terms of seeking cost effectiveness - that’s really a secondary consideration in the real world of infrastructure spending. Take the Anthony Henday: Was it proven that it would be cost effective before it was funded?

    I also seem to recall an overpass being built by South Edmonton Common that cost well over $200 million and some of the discussions seriously revolved around what our city looked like with the problems and the lower cost solutions proposed. (Basically cost didn’t matter in that decision - until after the bills came in). Then there’s any added costs in our new “signature” bridge in the river valley over what a basic run of the mill bridge would have cost.

    So the reality is that the priority given to cost-effectiveness always varies by project and the values of the citizens and decision makers of the day. Many things in our city are likely money losers yet we love them and don’t question or criticize the losses. On other expenditures cost recovery is quite arbitrarily deemed paramount and entirely different qualitative and quantitative assessments are made of those expenditures.
    Yes, but what about this contest specifically? How much is the estimated cost of the gondola concept compared to the advent festival or saunas or treehouse? It seems a lot more. It just seems unfair to have a contest like this unless everyone has the same cost limitations to work within.
    These ideas were not rated by their exponential different costs. You could combine the treehouse, sauna and gondola into one project if you were creative. LOL

    yes, really



    https://velvetescape.com/sauna-gondola-yllas-finland/
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    At $20 mill, I could buy in - not so much at $60.

    But, to be picky, I wonder how many people are going to get on an off at Rossdale? Well, maybe if Triple A B/ball comes back.

    Like I said, that's being picky - done right, I can see this being really popular with both locals and tourists.
    ... gobsmacked

  45. #45

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    Exponentially a better cost/benefit ratio than the funicular project.
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  46. #46

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    ^If you include or exclude the staircase, park, overpass, and elevator to the River Valley?
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GenWhy? View Post
    ^If you include or exclude the staircase, park, overpass, and elevator to the River Valley?
    All included, absolutely. The gondola if properly done would serve as an actual significant piece of transportation infrastructure. The funicular far less so, although I suppose it's purty. That's of course assuming the gondola is in the same ballpark price wise as the funicular. If Administration finds a way to turn it into a 100 million dollar monstrosity, which I suppose is possible, then not so much. Heck, a gondola link between DT and Whyte in some ways obviates or at least significantly delays the need for central LRT, if it's well connected to the existing lines.
    Last edited by Marcel Petrin; 07-03-2018 at 02:13 PM.

  48. #48

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    Burnaby Mountain gondola last I saw was around $120 million.
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    Quote Originally Posted by River Valley Green View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by River Valley Green View Post
    I have a question. Did the committee factor in cost when it came to the selections? I mean, it's one thing to come up with a great idea. But it's another to come up with one that is actually cost-effective and feasible in terms of actually getting the millions and millions in funding and capital to make it work.
    I think there’s a lot of subjectivity, randomness and random luck to such funding. Then in terms of seeking cost effectiveness - that’s really a secondary consideration in the real world of infrastructure spending. Take the Anthony Henday: Was it proven that it would be cost effective before it was funded?

    I also seem to recall an overpass being built by South Edmonton Common that cost well over $200 million and some of the discussions seriously revolved around what our city looked like with the problems and the lower cost solutions proposed. (Basically cost didn’t matter in that decision - until after the bills came in). Then there’s any added costs in our new “signature” bridge in the river valley over what a basic run of the mill bridge would have cost.

    So the reality is that the priority given to cost-effectiveness always varies by project and the values of the citizens and decision makers of the day. Many things in our city are likely money losers yet we love them and don’t question or criticize the losses. On other expenditures cost recovery is quite arbitrarily deemed paramount and entirely different qualitative and quantitative assessments are made of those expenditures.
    Yes, but what about this contest specifically? How much is the estimated cost of the gondola concept compared to the advent festival or saunas or treehouse? It seems a lot more. It just seems unfair to have a contest like this unless everyone has the same cost limitations to work within.

    Yes and no. C2E ran a similar contest called Great Ideas for a Greater Edmonton early in our days. The top ten ideas were voted on and cost was not a criterion. The main reason is to see the creative juices flow, and an audience can readily put their ideas of feasibility into the equation. The next steps were to see if champions were found and things accomplished. http://connect2edmonton.ca/showthrea...;-for-Edmonton

    10, 9, 7, and 4 are done or being done.

    I too wonder about the costs of this idea, but compared to many of the others, I think this one had the best traction to at least get submitted for a feasibility study. Just my $0.02
    Tired of being taken advantage of .

  50. #50

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    Substantially more than privately built systems but an economic benefit nonetheless

    https://www.translink.ca/-/media/Doc...B496FEE689C0CF
    How much would a gondola cost to build and run, and how would that compare tobusiness-as-usual diesel bus service over a 25-year period?
    Two ropeway suppliers were contacted to establish costs for gondola construction and
    operation. More conventional estimating practices were used for civil works, producing a
    capital cost estimate of $120 million, with annual operating costs of $3 to $3.5 million (all in
    2011 dollars). Over 25 years, this combined for a life-cycle cost of $157 million –
    approximately $10 million (net present value) more than the estimated costs of maintaining
    and expanding the bus service. Longer-term capital costs were estimated to be lower than
    diesel buses.


    Would the benefits of an alternative system justify the costs?The study calculated the monetary value of the following benefits:
     1.5 – 1.6 million annual hours of travel time savings for current riders
     500,000 annual hours of auto travel time savings for those expected to switch to the
    more efficient system (155,000 without Evergreen)
     26.1 – 29.2 million fewer vehicle kilometres travelled annually
     $4.1 – 4.5 million in lower auto operating costs
     $3.1 – 3.4 million in reduced collision costs
     6,900 – 7,100 tonnes in reduced GHG emissions (~$130,000 in potential carbon credits)
     Common Air Contaminant (CAC) reductions

    The total value of these benefits, over the 25-year life-cycle, totalled more than $500 million,
    creating a benefit-cost ratio (BCR) of 3.6. A BCR greater than 1.0 indicates that benefits
    surpass costs.
    A BCR of 3.6 indicates that significant benefits would result from
    implementing the project when considering a 6% real discount rate. Even when considered
    without the Evergreen Line, a BCR of 3.25 was projected.
    A market sounding with potential builders and operators concluded that a gondola could be
    built cost-effectively using either DB+OM (design-build and operate-maintain in a joint
    procurement) or DBFOM (design, build, finance, operate, maintain) strategies. A traditional
    procurement (design-build with TransLink to operate and maintain) is also considered
    feasible. If the project is approved, the exact procurement method would be determined
    based on market conditions at the time of procurement.
    Accordingly, this business case indicates that the benefits of improved service exceed costs,
    making a gondola a cost-effective means of meeting existing and future travel demand and
    promoting transit usage. The project also meets transportation, financial, environmental,
    urban development, social and community, and deliverability objectives.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenWhy? View Post
    Burnaby Mountain gondola last I saw was around $120 million.
    Looks like that was actually pretty comparable in terms of distance, if not elevation gain/lost. So maybe it is a bit of a pipe dream, if that's in the ballpark.

  52. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    No, the reliability of these systems are very high.*


    * as long as the COE has no fingers in the system...


    • Suggest a private company bid on a RFP to build, operate and maintain the system.
    • Fares integrated into the ETS system and fully transferable.
    • Land required on a COE 99 year lease arrangement at no cost to winning bidder.
    How is integrating ETS and the city giving a lease on land not "having a finger in the system"?

    If you don't want the city involved, lease land from private owners and run your own fare system.

  53. #53

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    Doing a RFP and offering a lease arrangement is not specifying the project or placing their finger into the project but you have to be realistic if you want to get the project off the ground.

    You can't buy parkland or COE ROW. Private companies can't expropriate land either.
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 07-03-2018 at 08:33 PM.
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  54. #54

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    A $25 to $50M project is reasonable for most private systems of this size. The Burnaby Mountain on looks like Vancouver was turning it into a large public works project.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  55. #55

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    Then the city is going to be involved. Or should the CoE simply sign off on whatever is placed in front of them, regardless?

    I think that this is an interesting idea with a lot of potential but the city is foing to have a finger in regardless of your feelings on the matter.

    It would be like handing over road planning and construction to a private entity and then not stopping them when they want to revive the Mill Creek Freeway.

  56. #56

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    No. Please don't be overly simplistic. In any RFP there is a scope. You identify the problem and set parameters such as an aerial tramway that is handicapped accessible, a certain minimum capacity, operating hours, noise levels, site limitations etc.

    If one proposal has 40, four passenger cars, with steel truss towers and costs $30M to build and $5M to operate vs another with four, bigger 40 passenger cars, tubular style towers, costs $40M but operates for $3M a year; the COE evaluates the proposals.

    The finger reference is not demanding that the project have a grandiose design with terminals that look the Art Gallery and unrealistic expectations of the private operator to COE union transit workers and mechanics or force them to include a budget for public art etc...

    Portland's expensive terminal building


    Compared to privately built version



    Let's just put the transit user utility and cost efficiency as a priority rather than making some 'signature' COE megaproject.

    Project creep and scope creep must be controlled https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scope_creep
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 07-03-2018 at 09:17 PM.
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    I've ridden the one in Hong Kong. I doubt this will be built in my lifetime, but I'd sure ride it if I could.
    Fly Edmonton first. Support EIA

  58. #58
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    There's a cool one in Koblenz, Germany that I've ridden. It goes across the Rhine River up to the castle that overlooks the city. The gondolas all have a neon strip on the side, so they are quite visible and attractive at night.
    Fly Edmonton first. Support EIA

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    Personally I don’t get the point of this. Yet another “transportation” option... how many options do we need? We can’t seem to get even one of our current choices done right, so why another that doesn’t actually go anywhere? To use it, you have to drive or take another form of transit just to get there, then transfer and go to one of your 2 destination stations and then get off and transfer TJ continue your journey. Whyte ave has bus, the seasonal tram from 109 to Old Strathcona, eventually LRT, and now this? If this tram is only going to be 3 stops then I do not support any money going into this at all. If it was something that was going from WEM to Whyte instead of the WLRT then it might actually be useful, but this is just another one of our half brained ideas that doesn’t actually do anything meaningful for anyone who lives here and has to pay for it.

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    I like the Gondala better the food truck Ferris wheel.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  61. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by etownboarder View Post
    Personally I don’t get the point of this. Yet another “transportation” option... how many options do we need? We can’t seem to get even one of our current choices done right, so why another that doesn’t actually go anywhere? To use it, you have to drive or take another form of transit just to get there, then transfer and go to one of your 2 destination stations and then get off and transfer TJ continue your journey. Whyte ave has bus, the seasonal tram from 109 to Old Strathcona, eventually LRT, and now this? If this tram is only going to be 3 stops then I do not support any money going into this at all. If it was something that was going from WEM to Whyte instead of the WLRT then it might actually be useful, but this is just another one of our half brained ideas that doesn’t actually do anything meaningful for anyone who lives here and has to pay for it.
    In the other discussion on the LRT option for Whyte Ave, you simply stated, "Why not?" indicating that you supported a very expensive LRT from DT to WAve.

    The advantage of the aerial gondola urban transit idea is that unlike LRT:


    1. the construction and operating costs are far less.
    2. low community disruption
    3. proven successful projects worldwide
    4. no at grade crossings
    5. direct DT to WAve connection to link the 'Twin Cities'
    6. NO schedules, 10 passenger/12 second frequency, Mi-Teleferico example
    7. direct service with 3 or 4 stations (add station at Jasper Ave.)
    8. LRT feeder
    9. reduces bus demand for river crossings
    10. breaks ETS transit monopoly
    11. effective, efficient and economical transit.
    12. expandable, as stated earlier, with additional routes to UofA-BD Mall, DT to Jasper Place, JP to WEM
    13. tourist attraction for visitors and Edmontonians alike
    14. dining car service option



    Got me convinced by #4
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 08-03-2018 at 06:43 AM.
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  62. #62

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    ^ I actually have no qualms if this were run by ETS and they just charge me the standard fare.

    I would still change the line slightly so that the stations would be: MacDonald Drive (ATB building), Rossdale, End of Steel Park, Whyte Ave (by washrooms)....and potentially an extension to Churchill square (though not needed).


    Personally, I all up for a 10 minute connection between Churchill Square and Whyte Ave (including walking and waiting times).

    An odyssey on a bus could take anywhere from 20 to 30 minutes. Once you factor in parking, driving would take that long as well.

    Would have loved for something like this in my bar hopping days...

  63. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Love it! Let's get it done.
    I see that your opinion on this idea has reversed 180 degrees.
    2006 is awhile ago, things change as do plans and needs.
    It was a good idea in 2006 and its a good idea now. Hell it was a good idea when Spokane put up their gondola riverpark ride way back for their Worlds fair. Given the cablevision connection of Edmonton receiving Spokane coverage and broadcasts we, as Edmontonians were very familiar with the project at that time. Indeed this could have been one of the first initiatives when the capital park system was opened here.

    We could have been front runners in something like this, that is actually interesting, cost efficient, and a superior form of transit for almost 50yrs.

    We'll spend countless bucks on initiatives that are meaningless, that nobody cares about, few people even wanted and we turn away from spectacular possibilities like this every time.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  64. #64

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    Most innovative transit ideas have been quashed by the public transit monopoly and powerful transit unions. Something COE Councilors have told me even on schedule and route changes. Even the taxi industry is against such projects.


    Example In late 2012, a widespread aerial gondola system was proposed for Austin, Texas in an effort to expand mass transit options in the rapidly growing city.[10] The proposal was rejected by the local transit agency in 2017.

    https://lintvkxan.files.wordpress.co...osal-final.pdf
    http://kxan.com/2017/03/24/proposal-...-move-forward/
    https://www.bizjournals.com/austin/n...e.html?ana=fbk
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gondol...rban_transport
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  65. #65
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    In London you can use your Oyster card to ride the Emirates gondola. They figure out how to divvy up the revenues.
    “Canada is the only country in the world that knows how to live without an identity,”-Marshall McLuhan

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    I’m having a hard time believing everyone on this forum thinks it is a good idea.
    “Canada is the only country in the world that knows how to live without an identity,”-Marshall McLuhan

  67. #67

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    Any idea deserves scrutiny. My only concern is if the COE Administration does a study or funds a third party to do a study, the bias may be placed on the status quo or negate the gondola idea for the much more expensive and intrusive Whyte Ave LRT proposal which would not receive the same level of scrutiny. We saw this in the trolley vs hybrid diesel bus study that was a complete fraud.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    I’m having a hard time believing everyone on this forum thinks it is a good idea.
    Iverson didn't seem overjoyed, I think its hilarious. Carrie Doll said some weird things, I wanted to say fhs, calm the farm Carrie, it's a few gondolas. She was like Sally fields, they like us, they really like us

    Let's Edmonton see the price tag..$$$$$$$$$...

  69. #69

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    Spokane Fall skyride


    The $2.5 million Spokane Falls SkyRide is one of only a handful of lifts in North America owned by city government. Doppelmayr CTEC built the pulse gondola in 2005 to replace a Riblet version that debuted in 1974. Riders board at the drive station in downtown Spokane’s Riverfront Park. The gondola travels down through the park, across the Spokane River and under a four-lane bridge before turning around. All this happens in only 1,120 feet. It takes 15 minutes to ride round-trip at a painful 150 feet per minute (the design speed is 600 fpm.) The gondola’s turnaround station on the far bank of the river does not have loading/unloading or even an operator.


    simple station

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    I’m having a hard time believing everyone on this forum thinks it is a good idea.
    Iverson didn't seem overjoyed, I think its hilarious. Carrie Doll said some weird things, I wanted to say fhs, calm the farm Carrie, it's a few gondolas. She was like Sally fields, they like us, they really like us

    Let's Edmonton see the price tag..$$$$$$$$$...
    They're talking big bucks here.

    If the gondola is just a ride from the North edge of the River Valley to the South edge then fine. If this is like a ride stretching from downtown to the University, um, no.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  71. #71
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    How many people live in Strathcona, and how many live downtown? I could see Gondola-Oriented Developments (GODs).
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    After thinking about this for a bit I have some concerns:

    I can get to the South Side from Grandin station in less then 5 minutes on the LRT.

    The gondola concept, doesn't need multiple stops other then getting on & off.

    Its just another revenue stream for the city to make money. Ads on cars to follow next, wait for it.

    Worried about grade separation downtown traffic? Don't bring anything downtown other then buses or bikes.

    What happens when the gondola gets stuck like the LRT has (often) on the middle of the bridge, with no power, at -20?

    What about operating costs? No it won't be apart of ETS's budget.

    Food service? Bring something from Tim's

    Trash left over on the gondola car.

    Gondola security personal.

    Kids (and some adults) putting dirty footwear on the seats.

    Gondola and the whole project is stupid.

    I got more
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  73. #73

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    You could argue that about anything on public transportation...
    On a good day you could take the #7 to/from the proposed gondola stop locations in 15-20 minutes. With Rossdale development, and construction in maybe 2030 (a ballpark maybe more realistic start, post LRT line expansions), who knows.
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

  74. #74

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    This could be a real attraction if done right, and a really useful service if the station are well located.

    Way better than an LRT crossing that's 100' from an existing LRT crossing.

    I know that a rossdale stop would be helpful for the eventual redevelopment of rossdale, but for an attraction I would take a straight-shot high-level crossing over a multi-stop option.
    There can only be one.

  75. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    I’m having a hard time believing everyone on this forum thinks it is a good idea.
    It's a really really stupid idea. 630ched ran a big part of their show on what an awesome idea this was... uhh really???

  76. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    After thinking about this for a bit I have some concerns:

    I can get to the South Side from Grandin station in less then 5 minutes on the LRT.

    The gondola concept, doesn't need multiple stops other then getting on & off.

    Its just another revenue stream for the city to make money. Ads on cars to follow next, wait for it.

    Worried about grade separation downtown traffic? Don't bring anything downtown other then buses or bikes.

    What happens when the gondola gets stuck like the LRT has (often) on the middle of the bridge, with no power, at -20?

    What about operating costs? No it won't be apart of ETS's budget.

    Food service? Bring something from Tim's

    Trash left over on the gondola car.

    Gondola security personal.

    Kids (and some adults) putting dirty footwear on the seats.

    Gondola and the whole project is stupid.

    I got more
    I don't understand why you chose Grandin (which is basically Oliver) to southside. Why didn't you say from Stadium to Whyte Ave, it takes about 30-40 minutes by bus/LRT combo.

    Gondolas don't come to a full "stop"

    Grade separation is what makes an aerial tramway effective for moving people

    Governments - for better or for worse - aren't in the business to make money...

    Let's just keep weather off the discussion...these aerial trams work in very extreme weather conditions from the 35C+ south american climate to the -30C Rocky Mountains.

    I can tell you operating it will be cheaper than operating the Centre LRT

    Security will be the same as taking the LRT

    Trash is left on buses and LRT all the time

    Seats are often dirty an stained on buses and LRT

    Let's be objective here....

  77. #77

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    If security is an issue then we should just forget about driverless cabs. Just an on-board camera per gondola should be enough .
    There can only be one.

  78. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    I’m having a hard time believing everyone on this forum thinks it is a good idea.
    Iverson didn't seem overjoyed, I think its hilarious. Carrie Doll said some weird things, I wanted to say fhs, calm the farm Carrie, it's a few gondolas. She was like Sally fields, they like us, they really like us

    Let's Edmonton see the price tag..$$$$$$$$$...
    They're talking big bucks here.

    If the gondola is just a ride from the North edge of the River Valley to the South edge then fine. If this is like a ride stretching from downtown to the University, um, no.
    A lot cheaper than building another LRT bridge to Old Strathcona

    B.ike skewered all your weak arguments. I like the one "What happens when the gondola gets stuck like the LRT has (often) on the middle of the bridge, with no power, at -20?"

    Answer: Everyone dies and they don't get a refund on their fare. OK, Satisfied??

    Real Answer: Same thing that they practice for when they do safety drills on extreme aerial gondolas like Peak 2 Peak at Whistler, 3,000 meters between towers and 436 meters above the ground....



    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 08-03-2018 at 05:52 PM.
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  79. #79

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    IMPROVING TRANSIT CULTURE – CULTIVATING A SENSE OF OWNERSHIP AND PRIDE
    http://gondolaproject.com/2014/08/12...hip-and-pride/



    Excerpt

    The Metro Medellin (which manages the Colombian city’s HRT, BRT, LRT and CPT) was the first public transportation company in Latin America to implement the idea of including students aged 18–25 years old in their operations staff.


    All the train lines of the Metro Medellin are exclusively driven by more than 250 students that spend half of their time in a post-secondary school, and the rest of the day driving high technology trains (a job that also provides a paycheque to fund their higher-education studies).


    The drivers are chosen from a rigorous screening process due to the high importance profile that the job demands — after all, they are responsible for thousands of lives on a daily basis. Medellin’s cable-car system, Metrocable, uses a similar staff structure, as all of their customer-service related activities are carried out by students from across the city.

    While it’s impressive to see how Metro Medellin has transformed the lives of students who would otherwise struggle financially to complete their professional endeavours, there’s a further upside to the student employment program: strengthening the connection between the community and the transit service that has transformed Medellin.


    Creating a sense of ownership in this industry is not easy. Firstly , you need a system that does the job efficiently. Then— and this is where it gets complicated — you need a service that delivers its users benefits beyond their private agendas.

    Transit agencies must strive towards providing programs and services that address and respect the needs of the people it serves. Once you do that, a system can begin to close the gap between the provider and user, and help foster the notion that, for the riders, the system truly is there own.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

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    I think there should be transit security at both ends to ensure responsible ridership. We don’t need idiots jumping inside the gondolas.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    We don't know what the cost of a new LRT bridge would be like in 30-50 years.

    In 30-50 years can planet earth even survive global warming in that time.

    As for this topic:

    I for one would never get into one of those Gondala's with strangers.

    What if I'm sharing a car with somebody that has a medical situation in one of those things? So being a good natured human being that I am decides to help, and gets slapped with a Law suit?

    Will these things be allowed wheelchair access? Can I bring my service dog aboard?

    How much will the ride cost? What will be the hours of operation?........
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  82. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    We don't know what the cost of a new LRT bridge would be like in 30-50 years.

    In 30-50 years can planet earth even survive global warming in that time.

    As for this topic:

    I for one would never get into one of those Gondala's with strangers.

    What if I'm sharing a car with somebody that has a medical situation in one of those things? So being a good natured human being that I am decides to help, and gets slapped with a Law suit?

    Will these things be allowed wheelchair access? Can I bring my service dog aboard? (Answer to both, Yes)

    How much will the ride cost? What will be the hours of operation?. (Answer:I had suggested same as ETS wit full transfeabiliry. Hours suggest 6 am to 1 am?)
    Bolding is mine

    I guess you have never gone skiing or used an elevator in your life, have you?
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 09-03-2018 at 02:08 PM.
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  83. #83

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    I’ve always thought this was a cool idea. However there will be problems. It’s a gondola system and they have problems. So design around those foreseeable problems and schedule around operational issues and build in flexibility, etc.

    So we plan around them. Winds will be an obvious issue. (Hail, freezing rain, etc) High winds can buckle and bend entire bridge beams, they can push semis over, etc. So winds can be expected to interrupt service. Similarly we have had some steep roads coming out of the river valley and they affect travel when they get icy so we adjust. Gondola cables and unprotected towers will likely ice up to, so we’d adjust.



    Here’s an example of another system with a self-evident reliability problem:

    Service restored after power outage halted C-Trains though downtown during morning commute
    Service returned to normal by noon, cause of the outage remains unclear

    CBC News
    September 21, 2017
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...tage-1.4300177
    Last edited by KC; 09-03-2018 at 02:16 PM.

  84. #84

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    Gondolas have been around for 100 years. The engineering parameters and failure modes are well known. The safety of gondola travel is amongst the safest and most reliable of any travel mode.

    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 09-03-2018 at 02:21 PM.
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  85. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Gondolas have been around for 100 years. The engineering parameters and failure modes are well known. The safety of gondola travel is amongst the safest and most reliable of any travel mode.
    And service will therefore face interruptions to avoid failure. We should all be fine with that. Just don’t create a false sense of security in terms of reliable continuous service that people expect to depend on.

    (I’ve skied a quite a bit. I remember the pre-lift Banff Sunshine ski hill bus service - now those stinky exhaust spewing trips up the hill provided minor thrills up until about the ‘90s but the lift was a huge step forward in “green” transport. Reliability? Probably suffered. The lift always seems to stop a lot. Breakdown? Not sure. Volume and speed likely spiked via lift so reliability in that sense of the measure probably improved.)
    Last edited by KC; 09-03-2018 at 02:30 PM.

  86. #86

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    May I ask about the reliability and on time performance of the Metro Line? I do recall that they had a couple of delays, no?
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  87. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    May I ask about the reliability and on time performance of the Metro Line? I do recall that they had a couple of delays, no?
    And so... clearly poor design and/or grand expectations can wreck the image of a potentially great service.

  88. #88

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    ...and so Boliva can make it work and young adults can operate it but you think Edmonton cannot?
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  89. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    ...and so Boliva can make it work and young adults can operate it but you think Edmonton cannot?
    Are you asking me? I think it’s totally workable here - within its design constraints. Being fully integrated into the transport system though would have to account for added factors other parts of the system don’t face. (Just like adding solar, wind, etc to the current traditional mix of sources.)

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    We don't know what the cost of a new LRT bridge would be like in 30-50 years.

    In 30-50 years can planet earth even survive global warming in that time.

    As for this topic:

    I for one would never get into one of those Gondala's with strangers.

    What if I'm sharing a car with somebody that has a medical situation in one of those things? So being a good natured human being that I am decides to help, and gets slapped with a Law suit?

    Will these things be allowed wheelchair access? Can I bring my service dog aboard? (Answer to both, Yes)

    How much will the ride cost? What will be the hours of operation?. (Answer:I had suggested same as ETS wit full transfeabiliry. Hours suggest 6 am to 1 am?)
    Bolding is mine

    I guess you have never gone skiing or used an elevator in your life, have you?
    Water skiing or snow skiing? I used to water ski on Cultuce lake in the 1970's, but snow skiing no.

    I got stuck in the Corona station elevator once. A few weeks ago Corona station was on (power outage) running lights. I'm not sure if there was anyone on that elevator at the time. This was at around 9pm.
    Last edited by envaneo; 11-03-2018 at 01:43 AM.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  91. #91

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    Why would you be so fearful of stepping into a gondola with other people? Are you claustrophobic or was the stuck elevator experience was such a dramatic event for you? I have ridden elevators and gondolas, chair lifts, people movers, roller coasters etc. and usually if there is some time, you end up talking and meeting nice people. I was on several gondolas last summer in Switzerland, France and Austria including a standing only one with 12 people in a 10 person capacity, squeezed in like sardines. About 6 of them broke out in some old folk song and lots of laughter. Too bad I did not know enough Dutch.

    Never been attacked, no medical emergencies or accidents. Relax and enjoy the ride and maybe talk to the person next to you...
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  92. #92

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    It’s almost certain that there would be some sort of issue. Attacks or whatever (likely drug related as intoxicated people leave the bars and pile into confined spaces, but also mental illness, etc...). It would be on camera and arrests would occur when people get off. No different than trains/subways, planes and boats. Buses see problems too but they can stop and everyone can bail out.

    The loading stations could work wonders by controlling access and spreading out and separating users that might otherwise face conflict. Like a group of old people that might break out into song and harass the otherwise cornered youth.
    Last edited by KC; 11-03-2018 at 09:34 AM.

  93. #93

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    You don't have to enter a gondola if you feel uncomfortable with the other person. Just don't board and take the next on 15 seconds behind.

    This is not an issue and cctv can be installed in every gondola.

    I wish people would look at the positives rather than shaggy dog stories and absolute worst cases. It is like no one would want to take an ETS bus because "remember that time some crazy person cut off the head of another passenger on a bus somewhere..."

    Let's be reasonable and not use false arguments.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  94. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    You don't have to enter a gondola if you feel uncomfortable with the other person. Just don't board and take the next on 15 seconds behind.

    This is not an issue and cctv can be installed in every gondola.

    I wish people would look at the positives rather than shaggy dog stories and absolute worst cases. It is like no one would want to take an ETS bus because "remember that time some crazy person cut off the head of another passenger on a bus somewhere..."

    Let's be reasonable and not use false arguments.
    Exactly. Case in point we took a bus home from Citadel Theater last Friday. We get on the #8 home. Laying passed out in the middle of the bus and occupying a whole seat, with some vomit on himself as well as looking like he had rolled in dogshit is some crazy looking dude that's muttering. Driver is calling security 3 times while driving bus trying to setup up a security rendez vous to get this guy removed from the bus. In the meantime people just have to sit far away as possible as it looks like more vomit is coming. Now THAT is a disgusting scenario that is increasingly common place on ETS busses and that Patrons cannot avoid as the next bus is 30mins later at that time, not 15secs later. You don't even know entering the bus that this problem is occurring. You don't realize the full ramifications of a drunk out of his mind possibly mentally ill person being on the same bus. Unlike a Gondola you don't know who or what you encounter on an ETS bus until you are on and its too late. Not like you have a choice which one to get on.

    KC should try to cite gondola assaults that has occurred. This would also be a particularly stupid venue in which to try to perpetrate an assault as it apparently needs to be mentioned that the perp can't escape either. Just have security waiting for them to detain them for arrest when they get off.
    Last edited by Replacement; 11-03-2018 at 11:43 AM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  95. #95
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    It would be a stupid venue, but, in the deranged state of mind which is often impulsive, the individual is not necessarily considering the venue and its confines. The damage is done by the time the perp is delivered to security.
    Nisi Dominus Frustra

  96. #96

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    ^^ Thank you. Too bad you had to experience such a sight.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  97. #97

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    ^The number 8 bus is deplorable. Possibly due to one end of the route being Abbotsfield. The amount of people you find passed out on that route is more than one would think on a weekend night particularly. This being a bus where you most definitely have to check seats before sitting down. You get people on this bus so drunk out of their heads that they urinate on the seats.

    ETS just lets these people on the busses as per policy for the drivers to not get involved in a one on one encounter. So that they just allow the person on no matter what mental state, and then figure out what to do with them and hope that nothing really bad occurs. The person could be literally dripping in their own vomit or urine and they are allowed on the bus. The security response to these events seems really slow. We got on DT and the guy was till on the bus drunk and hallucinating when we got off at MWTC. So that in a 40minute timespan Security had still not dealt with the matter. Nor were they there waiting at MWTC. We waited 10mins there for our transfer and security had still not arrived to deal with the person. So we're talking one hour or more with no security response. The driver was visibly frustrated with the situation. That bus was basically just shutdown at that point due to the problem.
    Last edited by Replacement; 11-03-2018 at 12:07 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  98. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by howie View Post
    It would be a stupid venue, but, in the deranged state of mind which is often impulsive, the individual is not necessarily considering the venue and its confines. The damage is done by the time the perp is delivered to security.
    But the point being this is fear mongering. To this extent we could worry about getting attacked anytime we walk down a street, anytime we leave the house. Thing is its easy to google bus assaults. (and ETS drivers do not intervene, they are instructed not to) and I couldn't google one gondola assault occurring anywhere anytime. Again gondolas are confined places for both the attacker and the potential victim. Perps, even dissociated perps typically are not attracted to confined places. Perpetrators often think out their escape routes in advance of the crime. Unless one could fly or be spider man a Gondola wouldn't offer one..

    The vast majority of sexual assaults of strangers are planned actions. They involve preying, premeditated, and actions that are often serial in nature. Again those that practice such don't want to be caught. They want escape routes.

    A gondola in anycase is no different, , from a confined pov where anybody else could get in, than almost any highrise elevator. The elevator being worse if the perp can get it to malfunction or stop. The elevator is also completely confined and not visible. Gondolas interiors are visible with their large windows.
    Last edited by Replacement; 11-03-2018 at 12:22 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  99. #99

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    And I fully expect that any proposal for a gondola will have detractors who will fear monger because they are against the idea and will use any means to kill the idea. Those who have a vested interest such as planners and contractors who prefer expensive LRT projects and those at ETS who want to protect their jobs and monopoly. Such opponents do not have an objective point of view or the benefits to the transit user. Self interest in the status quo is the greatest threat to any new idea.

    BTW gondolas are far from a new idea and are as old as the automobile but far less hazardous or inefficient transport.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  100. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    And I fully expect that any proposal for a gondola will have detractors who will fear monger because they are against the idea and will use any means to kill the idea. Those who have a vested interest such as planners and contractors who prefer expensive LRT projects and those at ETS who want to protect their jobs and monopoly. Such opponents do not have an objective point of view or the benefits to the transit user. Self interest in the status quo is the greatest threat to any new idea.

    BTW gondolas are far from a new idea and are as old as the automobile but far less hazardous or inefficient transport.
    People have really narrowly defined ideas of public transportation in Edmonton. Which is odd as one would think a Northern outpost would be pretty open and welcoming to opportunities.

    I love going to places where you get to experience several different modes of transportation. Lower mainland for instance. Floatplane, gondola, water taxi, Skytrain, sea bus, commuter trains etc all possible in one day.

    Here we get a Funicular that seems and looks almost a carbon copy of the one at SCC. Decades later, 2 blocks over. Because in Edmonton, this is imaginative..
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

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