Toronto's Glass Condos Face Short Lifespan

Chris83 · 14-11-2011, 08:46 AM

Interesting article considering how many of these buildings our on our collective wishlist.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/torontos-gl...114359149.html

edmonton daily photo · 14-11-2011, 08:59 AM

I'm not sure wer have ever advocated for all glass towers a la Vancouver.

KC · 14-11-2011, 09:08 AM

A couple years ago I started the following thread which contains some great discussion points and links...

"Do glass walled buildings cost us all?"

http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/forum...ad.php?t=15660

.

moahunter · 14-11-2011, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo

I'm not sure wer have ever advocated for all glass towers a la Vancouver.

I think its more a case of wanting materials other than stucco. Its interesting that the article says glass is cheapest, but I guess (?) in Toronto nobody builds with stucco anymore, so they are comparing to stone and brick.

Quote:

Glass walls have been popular among developers and consumers alike because they’re cheaper than more traditional materials and make a good first impression. But they aren’t energy-efficient and come with a hidden price that could soar down the road, engineers say.

Floor-to-ceiling glass walls heat up and swell in the summer, freeze and contract in winter, and shift with the wind, engineers say. The insulating argon gas between the panes escapes, the seals are breached and the windows are rendered useless against the city’s weather.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/torontos-gl...114359149.html

KC · 14-11-2011, 09:22 AM

I like the idea of buildings with glassed over atriums (think "Melrose Place" with a roof). There's a few in Edmonton. I was surprised though that HUB mall was doing away with the glass roof. I guess once you get an enclosed space, people want to use it year round and eventually destroy the very thing that attracted people to the environment in the first place.

I think in Edmonton we need a uniquely Edmonton/northern climate based design that brings in loads of light while retaining if not adding heat and preventing material failure. Possibly some sort of insulated translucent roof or roofs with high quality skylights and lots of Southern and some eastern and west facing windows. Strategically placed transom windows would do wonders too.

As for the glass walled condos - they just need to redesign the windows to enable a pane of glass to be removed and the seal replaced every 20-30 years (like changing a filter). However as I've stated elsewhere soon well have solid walls with cameras mounted on the outside and huge flat screen TVs on the inside. Want to look outside turn on the camera. Want to see a view of the beach when it's -40 outside - just 'change the channel'. Same for apartment/condo door viewers - little motion detecting units with view screens in the condo and door cameras looking into the hall.

IanO · 14-11-2011, 09:25 AM

"At First Canadian Place, a retrofit will take three years and $130 million to complete."

You are comparing the tallest office tower to a glass condo? no.

"We believe that somewhere between, say, five and 15 [years], many, many of those units will fail,” said David House of Earth Development."

5 years... maybe if installed wrong or using a very inferior glazing unit. They should last 15-25years. Seals and caulking might need some help, but replacement is not 5-15years.

"Glass walls have been popular among developers and consumers alike because they’re cheaper than more traditional materials and make a good first impression."

This article seems to be not differentiating between Window Wall and Curtain Wall, 2 quite different things.

I do agree that in Colder climates, Toronto is borderline colder but more temporate than many think, glazing % should be 40-60%, not Vancouver 60-80+.

Yes they are less efficient, but many are willing to pay more for the views, I would.

An interesting article nonetheless.

IanO · 14-11-2011, 09:27 AM

" I was surprised though that HUB mall was doing away with the glass roof. I guess once you get an enclosed space, people want to use it year round and eventually destroy the very thing that attracted people to the environment in the first place."

$$$ and the will (or lack there of) to retain one of the most architecturally important buildings in this city.

KC · 14-11-2011, 09:42 AM

Interesting though... as with many things in life - people save up front but then gripe when they have to fork out money at the tail end - having long spent the savings on other things.

As for HUB - its like any neighbourhood. Neighbourhoods can get better or worse but seldom can just stay the same. When people maintain their homes some 'cheap' out and so the neighbourhood goes into relative decline, while others upgrade and the neighbourhood becomes relatively more desirable. I see this where people slowly remove aging trees, etc. without replacing them. Before long all you see is an avenue of now fully exposed, aging, often unkempt houses and so the relative property values go into decline.

moahunter · 14-11-2011, 10:24 AM

I guess its simply a matter of correctly factoring the cost of replacement into the condo fee, ideally right from the outset. Looking at the condo fees on Toronto glass buildings though, I don't think that's often the case, they seem very low.

IanO · 14-11-2011, 10:33 AM

^when you do your reserve fund review/audit/assessment, you do try to look out 5-10years in a capital plan to try to budget for these things, but at the same time, it is of the opinion of many associations that those are really better off not factored into the fees and simply done through a special assessment at that point. Perhaps with some reserve help. It is not often possible to have reasonable condo fees if you factor in a 10,000,000 window replacement for 2023. Many people do not save up for a roof repair but simply use a line of credit or move cash around to pay it off.

KC · 14-11-2011, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IanO

^when you do your reserve fund review/audit/assessment, you do try to look out 5-10years in a capital plan to try to budget for these things, but at the same time, it is of the opinion of many associations that those are really better off not factored into the fees and simply done through a special assessment at that point. Perhaps with some reserve help. It is not often possible to have reasonable condo fees if you factor in a 10,000,000 window replacement for 2023. Many people do not save up for a roof repair but simply use a line of credit or move cash around to pay it off.

Hilarious!

"That financial advice sounds strangely familiar, said the retiring baby boomer to the old politician."

Does it have a name? We could call it the Fukushima strategy in honor of planting massive risk in the financial sands of time.

edmonton daily photo · 15-11-2011, 08:45 AM

........ Really you are going to compare replacing windows to a nuclear disaster...

KC · 15-11-2011, 09:44 AM

No, of course not. Try thinking about it.

I'm comparing the decision making practices that fail to recognize and deal with new risks as they arise. In the 1970s the Fukushima plant was built (on a beach by the way) to standards that they thought were suitable at the time. Subsequently, they failed to recognize future risks and deal with them, or more accurately, they failed to deal with them, preferring to wait for the day of reckoning to come.

As far back as the mid 1960s, people recognized that the baby boom population would stretch resources when they retired starting around the year 2000. Now that that day has arrived we're hearing that the system is unprepared for the rising demand on the system, etc. and even moronic, nonsensical pronouncements that health care and other demographically tied costs (pension etc.) are rising at an unsustainable rate. Even crazy statements that these costs or payouts or whatever should only rise by the rate of inflation (with no mention of near doubling of populations within certain age cohorts every five to ten years)!

So, if correct, here people are with predictable multi-million dollar future liabilities (far far bigger concerns than things like grass cutting and fence painting) that are being shoved under the carpet until the day of reckoning where some owners then have to risk losing their homes or having to mortgage their futures (often again) or disrupt other thoughtful plans to deal with issues that appear out of nowhere and could easily have been built into a regular reserve plan. Early owners get a free ride while future owners get shock treatment.

PS - Yes I recognize that there may be inter-generational/inter-owner issues of sorts here but those are common in society. i.e. My elderly father was paying taxes for new infrastructure he would never use, and today's workers will be paying social benefits paid to older generations... It's crazy though not to prepare for the 'inevitables'.

thegongshow · 15-11-2011, 03:31 PM

KC calls it like it is

240GLT · 15-11-2011, 04:20 PM

Many curtain wall project had had major issues, up to & including delamination and gasket failures. These are especially bad because as you may expect to have to service or retrofit the system in, say 30 years, but you end up having to do it in 15 (or in the case of many Concord buildings in Van, a lot sooner) the costs need to be shunted on to the owners in the form of a special assessment. As a former condo owner who had a couple of minor S.A.'s, I'd say I'd much rather see my fees balanced to cover long term expensive items, rather than get hit with a huge bill for which I have to either refinance my place or dip into savings for. Ian is not correct, most responible homeowners recognize when their roof is at the end of it's useable lifespan, and budget accordingly. Using a line of creidt as a rainy day fund is not a good idea.

I have often said that curtain wall is not a preferrec finishing system for residential buildings. As these buildings age it is becoming more & more clear that I am right, & would not buy into a curtain wall building.

IanO · 15-11-2011, 04:50 PM

^I might not be 'correct', but reserve funds are for 'anticipated future costs', not failing windows.

240GLT · 15-11-2011, 06:00 PM

^ Windows are an "anticipated future cost" as they will need to be replaced at some point. If you know that the future cost to replace a glazing system like a curtain wall will be much higher than replacing sealed units, that should be taken into account and probably budgeted for much sooner. Not such a big deal for the shiny & new glass & granite crowd who view their new condo as a stepping stone and who will upgrade to a different style of dwelling as their needs change, but for long term ownership and future resale value it should be a consideration.

Chris83 · 16-11-2011, 08:11 AM

Good update from CBC for those of us who don't understand window walls (or building mechanics in general):

The Slow Motion Failure of Toronto's Glass Condos
http://www.cbc.ca/toronto/features/condos/

Thermal Window Failure: How it Happens
http://www.cbc.ca/toronto/features/condos/seals.html

bolo · 16-11-2011, 04:35 PM

Do we have anything in Edmonton like this (outside of the CBD commercial towers?) Uptown has a lot of floor to ceiling windows, would they have the same problems?

edmonton daily photo · 16-11-2011, 04:38 PM

Ian can you explaine the difference between glass wall and glass Curtain wall?

lat · 16-11-2011, 04:48 PM

Curtain walls are walls that aren't load bearing, I believe. Any all-glass wall would then be considered a curtain wall, since glass can't bear the load of the building.

IanO · 16-11-2011, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bolo

Do we have anything in Edmonton like this (outside of the CBD commercial towers?) Uptown has a lot of floor to ceiling windows, would they have the same problems?

A great example of window wall.

The century also utilizes window wall on corner units.

Curtain wall, as the name implies, is literally a glass curtain over a space that is supported off the structure via a metal frame. Spandrel is the typically colored or non transparent horizontal pieces that conceal the slab. Mullions, both vertical and horizontal, are the aluminum "caps" between glazing units that visuallytieeverything together.

Marcel Petrin · 17-11-2011, 08:32 AM

For those wondering, here's a thread at SSP that discusses the difference between window and curtain wall a bit: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=143090

As far as I understand it, curtain wall is a better, more efficient system but also significantly more expensive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bolo

Do we have anything in Edmonton like this (outside of the CBD commercial towers?) Uptown has a lot of floor to ceiling windows, would they have the same problems?

I'm not well versed in either of the systems, but One River Park, Century Park, Illuminada, Uptown, Lessard House, and several other projects have at least some window or curtain wall systems. Some a lot more than others obviously. I don't know which are curtain vs. window wall.

But as you mention, Edmonton has a couple dozen office towers with curtain wall, and last I checked they're not all getting re-skinned despite most being well past 20 years old. The original article in the top post doesn't really seem to differentiate between the two systems. Is one more prone to failure than the other? Sounds like curtain wall tends to last a lot longer than window wall.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 240GLT, crossposted from SSP

Procatically no resi buildings are pressurized

All multi-unit residential buildings are pressurized, I'm not sure what you're getting at there.

240GLT · 17-11-2011, 08:41 AM

^ yes common areas but not suites. Suites are almost always negative to hallways. I was talking about building performance as it relates to curtain wall structures.

When I refer to pressurization I am talking about keeping the building positive to the outside, this is where curtain wall buildings perform. apartments with operable windows and exterior doors kind-of negate that effect.

Citysource · 18-11-2011, 03:40 PM

While not the same a res condo perhaps a similar approach can be taken: While working for years in the HSBC Canda Place (10250-101 St) I have observed the building owners doing a revolving re-fit of the sealed window units. As individual units fail they are popped out in the summer time and replaced with entirely new units.

Oddly, the same approach is used on our residential condo building (The Marquis). By way of a bizzare and perhaps shady court order all exterior windows and patio doors in this particular condo tower are the legal propery (on title) of each condo owner and not the condo board. The reson this was done was to avoid the need to do an entire re-fit all at once.

14-11-2011, 08:46 AM	#1
Chris83 Partially Addicted to C2E Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Edmonton since 2009	Toronto's Glass Condos Face Short Lifespan Interesting article considering how many of these buildings our on our collective wishlist. http://ca.news.yahoo.com/torontos-gl...114359149.html __________________ APPI Candidate

14-11-2011, 08:59 AM	#2
edmonton daily photo Addicted to C2E Join Date: May 2008	I'm not sure wer have ever advocated for all glass towers a la Vancouver. __________________ "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

14-11-2011, 09:08 AM	#3
KC Addicted to C2E Join Date: Mar 2006	A couple years ago I started the following thread which contains some great discussion points and links... "Do glass walled buildings cost us all?" http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/forum...ad.php?t=15660 . Last edited by KC; 14-11-2011 at 09:30 AM..

14-11-2011, 09:22 AM	#5
KC Addicted to C2E Join Date: Mar 2006	I like the idea of buildings with glassed over atriums (think "Melrose Place" with a roof). There's a few in Edmonton. I was surprised though that HUB mall was doing away with the glass roof. I guess once you get an enclosed space, people want to use it year round and eventually destroy the very thing that attracted people to the environment in the first place. I think in Edmonton we need a uniquely Edmonton/northern climate based design that brings in loads of light while retaining if not adding heat and preventing material failure. Possibly some sort of insulated translucent roof or roofs with high quality skylights and lots of Southern and some eastern and west facing windows. Strategically placed transom windows would do wonders too. As for the glass walled condos - they just need to redesign the windows to enable a pane of glass to be removed and the seal replaced every 20-30 years (like changing a filter). However as I've stated elsewhere soon well have solid walls with cameras mounted on the outside and huge flat screen TVs on the inside. Want to look outside turn on the camera. Want to see a view of the beach when it's -40 outside - just 'change the channel'. Same for apartment/condo door viewers - little motion detecting units with view screens in the condo and door cameras looking into the hall. Last edited by KC; 14-11-2011 at 09:29 AM..

14-11-2011, 09:25 AM	#6
IanO Addicted to C2E Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Edmonton	"At First Canadian Place, a retrofit will take three years and $130 million to complete." You are comparing the tallest office tower to a glass condo? no. "We believe that somewhere between, say, five and 15 [years], many, many of those units will fail,” said David House of Earth Development." 5 years... maybe if installed wrong or using a very inferior glazing unit. They should last 15-25years. Seals and caulking might need some help, but replacement is not 5-15years. "Glass walls have been popular among developers and consumers alike because they’re cheaper than more traditional materials and make a good first impression." This article seems to be not differentiating between Window Wall and Curtain Wall, 2 quite different things. I do agree that in Colder climates, Toronto is borderline colder but more temporate than many think, glazing % should be 40-60%, not Vancouver 60-80+. Yes they are less efficient, but many are willing to pay more for the views, I would. An interesting article nonetheless. __________________ inspiration or mediocrity www.decl.org Ottawa-Edmonton-Vancouver-Edmonton

14-11-2011, 09:27 AM	#7
IanO Addicted to C2E Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Edmonton	" I was surprised though that HUB mall was doing away with the glass roof. I guess once you get an enclosed space, people want to use it year round and eventually destroy the very thing that attracted people to the environment in the first place." $$$ and the will (or lack there of) to retain one of the most architecturally important buildings in this city. __________________ inspiration or mediocrity www.decl.org Ottawa-Edmonton-Vancouver-Edmonton

14-11-2011, 09:42 AM	#8
KC Addicted to C2E Join Date: Mar 2006	Interesting though... as with many things in life - people save up front but then gripe when they have to fork out money at the tail end - having long spent the savings on other things. As for HUB - its like any neighbourhood. Neighbourhoods can get better or worse but seldom can just stay the same. When people maintain their homes some 'cheap' out and so the neighbourhood goes into relative decline, while others upgrade and the neighbourhood becomes relatively more desirable. I see this where people slowly remove aging trees, etc. without replacing them. Before long all you see is an avenue of now fully exposed, aging, often unkempt houses and so the relative property values go into decline.

14-11-2011, 10:24 AM	#9
moahunter Addicted to C2E Join Date: May 2007 Location: Edmonton, Alberta	I guess its simply a matter of correctly factoring the cost of replacement into the condo fee, ideally right from the outset. Looking at the condo fees on Toronto glass buildings though, I don't think that's often the case, they seem very low.

14-11-2011, 10:33 AM	#10
IanO Addicted to C2E Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Edmonton	^when you do your reserve fund review/audit/assessment, you do try to look out 5-10years in a capital plan to try to budget for these things, but at the same time, it is of the opinion of many associations that those are really better off not factored into the fees and simply done through a special assessment at that point. Perhaps with some reserve help. It is not often possible to have reasonable condo fees if you factor in a 10,000,000 window replacement for 2023. Many people do not save up for a roof repair but simply use a line of credit or move cash around to pay it off. __________________ inspiration or mediocrity www.decl.org Ottawa-Edmonton-Vancouver-Edmonton

15-11-2011, 08:45 AM	#12
edmonton daily photo Addicted to C2E Join Date: May 2008	........ Really you are going to compare replacing windows to a nuclear disaster... __________________ "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

15-11-2011, 09:44 AM	#13
KC Addicted to C2E Join Date: Mar 2006	No, of course not. Try thinking about it. I'm comparing the decision making practices that fail to recognize and deal with new risks as they arise. In the 1970s the Fukushima plant was built (on a beach by the way) to standards that they thought were suitable at the time. Subsequently, they failed to recognize future risks and deal with them, or more accurately, they failed to deal with them, preferring to wait for the day of reckoning to come. As far back as the mid 1960s, people recognized that the baby boom population would stretch resources when they retired starting around the year 2000. Now that that day has arrived we're hearing that the system is unprepared for the rising demand on the system, etc. and even moronic, nonsensical pronouncements that health care and other demographically tied costs (pension etc.) are rising at an unsustainable rate. Even crazy statements that these costs or payouts or whatever should only rise by the rate of inflation (with no mention of near doubling of populations within certain age cohorts every five to ten years)! So, if correct, here people are with predictable multi-million dollar future liabilities (far far bigger concerns than things like grass cutting and fence painting) that are being shoved under the carpet until the day of reckoning where some owners then have to risk losing their homes or having to mortgage their futures (often again) or disrupt other thoughtful plans to deal with issues that appear out of nowhere and could easily have been built into a regular reserve plan. Early owners get a free ride while future owners get shock treatment. PS - Yes I recognize that there may be inter-generational/inter-owner issues of sorts here but those are common in society. i.e. My elderly father was paying taxes for new infrastructure he would never use, and today's workers will be paying social benefits paid to older generations... It's crazy though not to prepare for the 'inevitables'.

15-11-2011, 03:31 PM	#14
thegongshow Partially Addicted to C2E Join Date: May 2007 Location: In a van down by the river	KC calls it like it is __________________ It's not EIA it's YEG

15-11-2011, 04:20 PM	#15
240GLT Addicted to C2E Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: North central	Many curtain wall project had had major issues, up to & including delamination and gasket failures. These are especially bad because as you may expect to have to service or retrofit the system in, say 30 years, but you end up having to do it in 15 (or in the case of many Concord buildings in Van, a lot sooner) the costs need to be shunted on to the owners in the form of a special assessment. As a former condo owner who had a couple of minor S.A.'s, I'd say I'd much rather see my fees balanced to cover long term expensive items, rather than get hit with a huge bill for which I have to either refinance my place or dip into savings for. Ian is not correct, most responible homeowners recognize when their roof is at the end of it's useable lifespan, and budget accordingly. Using a line of creidt as a rainy day fund is not a good idea. I have often said that curtain wall is not a preferrec finishing system for residential buildings. As these buildings age it is becoming more & more clear that I am right, & would not buy into a curtain wall building. __________________ Parkdale

15-11-2011, 04:50 PM	#16
IanO Addicted to C2E Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Edmonton	^I might not be 'correct', but reserve funds are for 'anticipated future costs', not failing windows. __________________ inspiration or mediocrity www.decl.org Ottawa-Edmonton-Vancouver-Edmonton

15-11-2011, 06:00 PM	#17
240GLT Addicted to C2E Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: North central	^ Windows are an "anticipated future cost" as they will need to be replaced at some point. If you know that the future cost to replace a glazing system like a curtain wall will be much higher than replacing sealed units, that should be taken into account and probably budgeted for much sooner. Not such a big deal for the shiny & new glass & granite crowd who view their new condo as a stepping stone and who will upgrade to a different style of dwelling as their needs change, but for long term ownership and future resale value it should be a consideration. __________________ Parkdale Last edited by 240GLT; 15-11-2011 at 06:09 PM..

16-11-2011, 08:11 AM	#18
Chris83 Partially Addicted to C2E Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Edmonton since 2009	Good update from CBC for those of us who don't understand window walls (or building mechanics in general): The Slow Motion Failure of Toronto's Glass Condos http://www.cbc.ca/toronto/features/condos/ Thermal Window Failure: How it Happens http://www.cbc.ca/toronto/features/condos/seals.html __________________ APPI Candidate

16-11-2011, 04:35 PM	#19
bolo Addicted to C2E Join Date: Jan 2011	Do we have anything in Edmonton like this (outside of the CBD commercial towers?) Uptown has a lot of floor to ceiling windows, would they have the same problems?

16-11-2011, 04:38 PM	#20
edmonton daily photo Addicted to C2E Join Date: May 2008	Ian can you explaine the difference between glass wall and glass Curtain wall? __________________ "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

16-11-2011, 04:48 PM	#21
lat Addicted to C2E Join Date: Jan 2007	Curtain walls are walls that aren't load bearing, I believe. Any all-glass wall would then be considered a curtain wall, since glass can't bear the load of the building. __________________ done.

17-11-2011, 08:41 AM	#24
240GLT Addicted to C2E Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: North central	^ yes common areas but not suites. Suites are almost always negative to hallways. I was talking about building performance as it relates to curtain wall structures. When I refer to pressurization I am talking about keeping the building positive to the outside, this is where curtain wall buildings perform. apartments with operable windows and exterior doors kind-of negate that effect. __________________ Parkdale

18-11-2011, 03:40 PM	#25
Citysource Partially Addicted to C2E Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Edmonton	Phased approach While not the same a res condo perhaps a similar approach can be taken: While working for years in the HSBC Canda Place (10250-101 St) I have observed the building owners doing a revolving re-fit of the sealed window units. As individual units fail they are popped out in the summer time and replaced with entirely new units. Oddly, the same approach is used on our residential condo building (The Marquis). By way of a bizzare and perhaps shady court order all exterior windows and patio doors in this particular condo tower are the legal propery (on title) of each condo owner and not the condo board. The reson this was done was to avoid the need to do an entire re-fit all at once.