Green Roof in Edmonton

[Channing]

The roof of the Williams Engineering Building is going to have a new roof installed in early April this year. WEC is working with novaNAIT who will use the roof as a teaching and demonstration pilot project for the next couple years. NAIT students will have a few test plots on the roof to test different plantings.

Eventually the roof will also have a weather station to help NAIT students correlate the changing weather to the green roof conditions.

[Ander]

YES!

hopefully this is an outrageous success and other roofs in the area get the same treatment

[Komrade]

Cool! Can these roofs be used to grow edible food also?

[Renton]

Absolutely Komrade, but that's an entirely different beast.

Something like that would require among other things: sufficient depth of planting medium, appropriate irrigation, and necessary drainage, not to mention the adequate infrastructure to support people on the roof (if it is to be an inhabitable amenity space for example, the membrane must be treated differently. Additionally, simple things like access and fire / health /safety have to be considered. The rules are obviously much different if the space is only intended to be accesses for mechanical / maintenance purposes).

A greenroof like the one depicted above could probably work with a relatively minimal amount of soil, or perhaps just a layer of rockwool / mineral fibre on top of the membrane. An 'intensive' system however would be far more substantial.

[Komrade]

Thats all good then. At least this is a first step to achieving the later.

[darrellinyvr]

The downtown Vancouver Library has a green roof, though there is no public access to it (stupid). Also one of the major hotels in the core have a section of green roof and grow their seasonal herbs and veggies. (I seem to recall it was the Four Seasons but don't quote me)

[IanO]

impressive Channing...

There might also be another 'green roof' coming soon to an office near yours as well.

[Channing]

I'd be excited to see that happen.

[Blueline]

So does this now the third or fourth green roof ?
Partial or otherwise
Manulife
124 street building (102 ave)
Stantec
??

[GreenSPACE]

http://www.millcreekflexhomes.ca will have a tiny greenroof. Supplied by Soprema.

[Tiran]

The new Fort Edmonton Administration building is supposed to have a green roof when it is built. At least that is what the funding announcment said.

[darrellinyvr]

Originally Posted by Tiran

The new Fort Edmonton Administration building is supposed to have a green roof when it is built. At least that is what the funding announcment said.

Being that it's Fort Edmonton and I am thinking of a historical context. isnt a Admiistative Building just a fancy name for a Sod Roofed house? Kidding! This is the prairies after all, if they re-worked that idea into a modern context it would be keeping in theme with the Park?

[kcantor]

as an aside, this is really a "vegetative" roof, most of which are "green" but most "green" roofs aren't "vegetative", they are primarily reflective.

[ChrisD]

^This is better than the asphalt or gravel roof alternatives.

[kcantor]

Originally Posted by ChrisD

^This is better than the asphalt or gravel roof alternatives.

i agree with you completely ChrisD - but so are the "non-vegetative" green roofs. as for whether vegetative is better than non, there are advantages to both in differenct circumstances. i was simply pointing out the difference, not taking sides.

[edmonton daily photo]

What is the difference between Vegetative and Green?

[kcantor]

Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo

What is the difference between Vegetative and Green?

a green roof is generally considered to be a roof that is "environmentally friendly" as opposed to the traditional asphalt/tar and gravel technology ChrisD mentioned. examples would include the one that started this thread that use vegetation whether active or passive; cool roofs whose high reflectivity reduces the urban heat effect of solar radiation; roofs used to house solar thermal panels; and roofs used to house photovoltaic panels.

[edmonton daily photo]

Ahhh so a Green roof can be more than just vegetative. If I am understanding you correctly.

[darrellinyvr]

Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo

What is the difference between Vegetative and Green?

I thought it was about $8.00 a plate depending on which restaurant you went to.

[kcantor]

Originally Posted by darrellinyvr

I thought it was about $8.00 a plate depending on which restaurant you went to.

only in yaletown... in edmonton it's about $3.50 a plate depending on which restaurant you go to...

[Helmut]

Originally Posted by Tiran

The new Fort Edmonton Administration building is supposed to have a green roof when it is built. At least that is what the funding announcment said.

You're correct. This was the initial plan for the administration building/point of entry at FEP, the building itself forming a kind of man-made hill that would blend seamlessly into the rest of the landscape (kind of like the Bentley plant in Crewe, England). However, costs escalated beyond what the city could afford and a different, entirely conventional vegetative roof-less plan was adopted. It's nearing completion now with move in slated for July.

I'm excited to see what kind of success the vegetative roof on the Williams Engineering building enjoys...hopefully it proves that green/vegetative roofs are the way of the future and not just a component of a fleeting "green fad".

[Gene Krupa]

The roof of the rehabilitated Immigration Hall will have a green roof. Constructed last year, it will have its planting completed in late Spring 2010.

[Sonic Death Monkey]

Article from today's Journal:
http://www.edmontonjournal.com/enter...330/story.html

[Channing]

Photos taken last week by a Williams Engineering Employee.

[booster]

Thanks for the pictures!

Makes the look down that much better for Telus building people and Hotel Mac guests who have windows facing it. Gets rid of a little grey.
I would love to do that with our building, but alas I don't think the owner is interested.

[Ander]

all the concrete downstairs doesn't look so bad from that angle. Kudos to W.E on their green-roof. I wish Scotia Place would consider doing something like this over the main entrance to their building.

[IanO]

Very impressive (initially) and I do look forward to how it "weathers" and what you learn from it.

kudos to WE

[Rick987]

Originally Posted by Helmut

...hopefully it proves that green/vegetative roofs are the way of the future and not just a component of a fleeting "green fad".

If I was a betting man I would put my money down on it enjoying the same kind of legacy as other great ideas such as Poly-B piping and pine shakes.

[kcantor]

Originally Posted by Rick987

If I was a betting man I would put my money down on it enjoying the same kind of legacy as other great ideas such as Poly-B piping and pine shakes.

there's some - like the fairmont waterfront's herb garden in vancouver (which like the royal york in toronto also now has honeybee hives) - that have been in place quite successfully for a long time:

[Rick987]

^ I am not suggesting that there won't be (or are not already) any success stories.

I am am just hedging that as they become more popular and ultimately more dumbed down by the developers and designers, less maintained by the building owners and so on the more we will see the predictable problems and outcry over maintenance, replacement and damage repair costs.

I am already shaking my head at lack of thought that is going into the details I am seeing on stuff being proposed. I don't expect it to improve much until the people responsible experience some problems first hand but when that happens the consumer confidence will already have been shaken.

And none of that even touches on the extremely marginal benefits of have a green roof on the average project to start with.

[IanO]

Added insulation, cooling, reduced heat island effect, new bird/insect haven, prettier, protects roof membrane...

yup marginal benefits indeed

[ChrisD]

^Exactly, I mean, who wants to save on operating costs...

[Ander]

WEM should green roof the whole building

[kcantor]

Originally Posted by ChrisD

^Exactly, I mean, who wants to save on operating costs...

i think this is one of those things that makes sense because it can be a "right thing to do" for the building's occupants and for those that look at it (much like good architectural design and urban edges also have "value" even though they don't have a "payback period") and for those that live in the cities that utilize them.

however, i would doubt whether there is as much - if any - actual payback from a living/green roof as there would be from a well insulated highly reflective roof. and when you factor in the substantial additional roof loading that is needed not only for the soil but for the retained water and ice that accompanies it and the additional structural requirements that may be needed all the way through to the building's foundations and pay for them all you may never see a payback.

that doesn't mean green roofs shouldn't be done, just to note that there is a tendency today to "oversell" things because they're "green" and "more efficient" and "they pay for themselves" when that shouldn't necessarily be the reason to choose them. because when they don't perform the way they were oversold or save money the way they were represented, they lose value that shouldn't have been promised in the first place when they should be just as valuable without them.

[AqibS]

Originally Posted by Ander

WEM should green roof the whole building

baby steps...

[Blueline]

Does anyone know if the green areas on the Manulife podium fall into the green roof catagory ?
If so that has quietly been around for years

[Marcel Petrin]

Originally Posted by Rick987

such as Poly-B piping

You realize that virtually every residential building built in Alberta is likely done with PEX right? It's basically the exact same thing, but with a slightly different plastic.

[IanO]

Originally Posted by Blueline

Does anyone know if the green areas on the Manulife podium fall into the green roof catagory ?
If so that has quietly been around for years

well there are green parts...

but from my knowledge of it, it is more planter style no?

[Rick987]

Originally Posted by IanO

Added insulation, cooling, reduced heat island effect, new bird/insect haven, prettier, protects roof membrane...

yup marginal benefits indeed

You seem to have beaten me to my own response with what you wrote a couple posts later.

As I said, 'marginal' benefits. Not 'no' benefits. Which is what you seem to basically agree with.

To me it seems like a flavour of the month trend with, and if not done carefully, great potential for problems and added costs down the road.

[Rick987]

Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin

You realize that virtually every residential building built in Alberta is likely done with PEX right? It's basically the exact same thing, but with a slightly different plastic.

Yup, I'm well aware of what's used in the industry.

Basically but not exactly is the key. If Poly-B wasn't problematic then there would be no 'basically...but with a slightly different plastic' and Poly-B would still be in use.

[IanO]

^.....

" and if not done carefully, great potential for problems and added costs down the road."

sorta like global warming if we dont make change now?

[Rick987]

^ Really? Green roofs will solve, make an impact, a dent, any difference at all on global warming?

I would love an explanation on how that happens.

[IanO]

^it is part of a much larger solution to the above and if incorporated more often would positively contribute to a many faucets of our climate woes.

[Rick987]

Originally Posted by IanO

^it is part of a much larger solution to the above and if incorporated more often would positively contribute to a many faucets of our climate woes.

OK, but how?

Even more specifically, 'how' as it applies to Edmonton and Edmonton's climate?

[IanO]

refer to post 31.

[Chris83]

Originally Posted by Rick987

OK, but how?

Even more specifically, 'how' as it applies to Edmonton and Edmonton's climate?

Worldwide, buildings produce approximaely 40% of total carbon emissions and 80-85% of a buildings energy usage comes from heating, cooling and hot water.

Green roofs reduce the overall energy consumption of a building; while their effect may be more prominant in warmer climates, this does not preclude their benefits in a place like Edmonton. The amount of research in cold climate green roofs is relatively minimal, however, research is ongoing and is displaying the benefits of such roofs.

Here is a couple links:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1126141309.htm
http://ec.europa.eu/environment/etap...greenroofs.pdf

Also, while many may consider the benefits of a few green roofs to be a drop in the bucket, don't forget that it was the cumulative effects of many drops in the bucket that got us into our current dilemma.

[Rick987]

Originally Posted by IanO

refer to post 31.

Post 31 doesn't explain anything.

No offence but it would appear that you have bought what the sales brochure is selling without actually digging into the details.

[noodle]

http://www.greenroofs.org/index.php/...-roof-benefits
http://www.greenroofs.org/resources/..._Mandatory.pdf

[IanO]

^none taken for I have read the brochures, attended classes on green roof certification, and often investigate them to potentially apply to projects I work directly on.

I have drank the koolaid, but the koolaid is legit.

[Rick987]

Originally Posted by IanO

^none taken for I have read the brochures, attended classes on green roof certification, and often investigate them to potentially apply to projects I work directly on.

I have drank the koolaid, but the koolaid is legit.

Ok so given that I'll ask again, aside from the generic talking points made in post 31 how do green roofs address our climate woes in any significant way, particularily here in Edmonton?

As a means to help address climate change through construction it's 90% gimick VS 10% effective (arbitrary percentages picked to make a point).

[IanO]

^principally in an R value increase in your roof insulation to reduce cooling needs in summer and more importantly heating needs in winter.

[Rick987]

Originally Posted by IanO

^principally in an R value increase in your roof insulation to reduce cooling needs in summer and more importantly heating needs in winter.

The thing is that the added R value from a green roof is less efficient per inch than the added R value from simply adding more insulation at the same depth.

For example if you had an R-18 roof (usually the baseline roof R-value of the roofs referenced in in the green roof studies) and added a 6" deep green roof, you would reduce the heat loss by 25%. Not bad.

Now if you added a further 6" of insulation to an R-18 roof you would reduce the heat loss by about 66%.

Added to that there are no addition costs due to structural concerns as well as there are no irrigation concerns (which in itself is crazy when you consider the whole green roof concept is supposed to be about protecting the environment).

[IanO]

Again, it is a component of a more comprehensive strategy that CAN be effective and if used in combination with other strategies will have more far reaching effects than added insulation.

[Rick987]

Originally Posted by IanO

Again, it is a component of a more comprehensive strategy that CAN be effective and if used in combination with other strategies will have more far reaching effects than added insulation.

Perhaps and as I said I would love to see an explanation of what that is.

You said "principally" it's an R-value issue. In isolation I disagree but maybe the total strategy has something that I am missing.

[Marcel Petrin]

Originally Posted by Rick987

Yup, I'm well aware of what's used in the industry.

Basically but not exactly is the key. If Poly-B wasn't problematic then there would be no 'basically...but with a slightly different plastic' and Poly-B would still be in use.

Most of the problems with poly-b were overblown in Alberta, really. There were very few failures because of the fittings used and our climate. Where there were a lot of failures was where plastic fittings were used, or in very warm climates like Arizona where the water lines were run in attic spaces where the temperature would exceed the rating of the pipe (pressure rating goes down as temperature goes up).

Most local opposition to poly-b was simply "old-school" plumbers who simply didn't like flexible tubing in general, and for some decent reasons (looks like crap, easier to puncture during or after construction, and so on).

http://www.municipalaffairs.gov.ab.c...s/ss/polyb.pdf

Four failures in Alberta, all of which were installation and not material problems. Out of around 148,000 residences.