Save millions in snow removal and have safe winter streets

[Jocelyn]

The recent cut backs to the Snow Removal Program in Edmonton were based on an audit that states:
In 2007 they went over budget for “Snow Storage” by $5,631,000 572% !!!!!!!!! Then in 2008 they went over budget again by $3,851,000 294%!!!!
WHY are we going over budget in “Snow Storage”.
The audit states that “Roadway Maintenance attributes $3.1 million of the over spending in 2008 to the underfunding of erosion control and snow site clean-up in the 2008 Budget. The remainingamount is due to more than anticipated hired equipment hours used to stack and movesnow to increase melting rates. They attribute $5.1 million of the over spending in 2007 to the under funding of environmental issues and pond clean-up in the 2007 Budget.”
Another question you may be asking is WHAT is “Snow Storage”. Well audit states
“The snow removal crews haul the snow to one of five
City-owned snow storage sites. Four of these sites are
also open to the public to dump snow. Roadway
Maintenance hires 12 dozers to pile the snow in the
winter and move it around to facilitate melting through
the spring and summer. Dollars are also spent on
cleaning and disposing of accumulated silt from the
bottom of the ponds, erosion control, and
environmental monitoring.”

The audit also states that In a price comparison with four other cities snow removal spending for 2008 Edmonton spent $46.7million 49% went to external service providers. Winnipeg came in a far second with $29.8 million and 27% for external service providers. Calgary $23.9 million with 5% to external service providers. Saskatoon spent $5 million and 5% for external service providers and Regina spent $4.2 and 14% went to external service providers.
Edmonton spent 16.9 million more than Winnipeg on snow removal in 2008. Also Edmonton spent 22.8 million of external service providers while Winnipeg spent 8million. Calgary only spent $1.1 million on external service providers.

I have more information on the Facebook Group Edmontonians Deserve Proper Snow Clearing and Removal.

I believe if money was put into fixing the Snow Storage Facilities and a proper cost analysis was done on hiring external services vs. buying more equipment that we could have the best of both worlds. Safer winter roads and cut over 10 million (or more) from the snow removal budget. I'm out to prove it and help change their mind. I could really use your help.

Thanks- Jocelyn

[Medwards]

Did you know that Calgary has chinooks, and a lot less snow that stays on the ground?
Calgary gets away with a lot less snow removal...

How about you take some time and compare actual service levels here? How many kms are cleared for how much money? otherwise, we are really just comparing apples to zucchinis.

[Titanium48]

Calgary may not be a valid comparison, but Winnipeg is. As for snow storage site cleanup costs, perhaps if the snow was plowed BEFORE dumping tonnes of sand and salt on the roads we could use far less sand and salt and it wouldn't cost so much to clean up the storage sites after the snow melts.

[lobbdogg]

we could just build a bubble over the city...

[nobleea]

if the city didn't "stack and move snow to increase melting rates" in the snow storage facilities/dumps, the mounds of snow would not melt over our short summers and would get bigger and bigger every year.

i think they should make it fun - every spring, have a big 'spring welcome party'. invite the military to wire the large snow dumps/storage with explosives and set it off while people watch from a safe distance.

[grish]

heated streets. heat every street and the snow removing budget would be nearly zero.

now, on a completely separate topic, how about reducing the heated street budget?

[Medwards]

^ would that create more or less potholes?

[Chmilz]

Less, potholes are created during freeze/thaw cycles. If the streets never froze, there'd be virtually no potholes.

Sidewalks would be skating rinks though, all the water would splash and freeze since they wouldn't be heated. Any objects splashed would eventually become ice sculptures.

[Chmilz]

We definitely need to take a look at how Winnipeg does their snow removal. Sure they spend less, but do they clear as much, as often, or as fast? Total cost doesn't say anything in relation to cost per km to plow, or cost per tonne to remove and store. 3 lane roads cost more plow than 1 or 2 lanes, since you need more trucks or graders.

[Sonic Death Monkey]

^ Also, Winnipeg is smaller with fewer roads, if I'm not mistaken.

[Jocelyn]

Yes I'm aware that Calgary has chinooks. They get less snow fall but so did Edmonton in the years the audit compared. The comparisons were done by the City of Edmonton auditor not myself. We are still spending double and even the City of Edmonton thinks that's wrong. The problem is they are making cut backs in the wrong areas instead of fixing the problem that is causing the over spending and that is SNOW STORAGE and the need for external service providers. In the mean time the roads aren't safe and they have lost the Graders they could depend on. (I'm sure losing the retainer did not make them happy and it when it snowed they were a no show.)

[Sonic Death Monkey]

^ You're certainly obsessed with this - even your Facebook profile pic is a snowplow!
What is the purpose of the snow storage anyway?

[Jocelyn]

My facebook profile pic is of the plow that did my street last night! )- I'm very happy about it. 1st time in 3 years that my street has been plowed. It's a beautiful thing. You are right I do seem more than a bit obsessed about the issue but I think it's a healthy obsession especially if I can get the folks at the City Hall to consider my idea. I'm not asking for them to change the snow removal program and plow everything all the time. I just think it needs to be done better and I think it CAN be done better. Thanks for posting!

[mark]

they should do an environmental impact assessment about just dumping the snow into the river. storm drains dump there with the same salt & car chemical crap that removed snow has, and there is really nothing downstream of us.

[Medwards]

Originally Posted by mark

there is really nothing downstream of us.

There's trees, and birds and animals, and the whole environment. Who gives a crap about that when we can SAVE MONEY!!!!

[RRH]

if 49% went to external contractors I wonder how much gouging took place during our recent "boom years"?

[Titanium48]

Originally Posted by mark

they should do an environmental impact assessment about just dumping the snow into the river. storm drains dump there with the same salt & car chemical crap that removed snow has, and there is really nothing downstream of us.

Very few storm sewers empty directly into the river. The combined sewers in the core go to the sewage treatment plant first, while most of the rest end up at a storm water storage lake. Either way, silt and oil gets removed before the water gets to the river.

[mark]

Originally Posted by Medwards

There's trees, and birds and animals, and the whole environment. Who gives a crap about that when we can SAVE MONEY!!!!

the 'contaminated' snow currently melts in one place, filtered by the ground, and goes into the water table or the river. if the magic part of that equation is filtration, why not do this:

build a platform in the river valley. fill it with layers of gravel, clay, whatever the best natural filtration system is. install some geothermal loops to create constant melting. dump all the snow on top. let it melt and filter and runoff into the river.

the one time cost of building would be massive but once it gets going it might be be cheaper than the current system. i'm just spitballin here. if i had my tablet installed i'd sketch what i have in mind... but you're gonna have to use your imagination for now. my point is that jocelyn is right-- there are probably a hundred better solutions than what the city is currently doing.

[Jocelyn]

Originally Posted by mark

the 'contaminated' snow currently melts in one place, filtered by the ground, and goes into the water table or the river. if the magic part of that equation is filtration, why not do this:

build a platform in the river valley. fill it with layers of gravel, clay, whatever the best natural filtration system is. install some geothermal loops to create constant melting. dump all the snow on top. let it melt and filter and runoff into the river.

the one time cost of building would be massive but once it gets going it might be be cheaper than the current system. i'm just spitballin here. if i had my tablet installed i'd sketch what i have in mind... but you're gonna have to use your imagination for now. my point is that jocelyn is right-- there are probably a hundred better solutions than what the city is currently doing.

I'd love to see that sketch! (I also am envious you have a tablet, what kind is it?) I also think the River would be an a viable option. In Halifax they dump it in the harbour (that's where I lived 3 years ago).

As for gouging I don't know that I would call it gouging just because the cost of labour during the boom went up all over Alberta during the BOOM years. (think about all the signs offering to pay $18/hour to work at a drive thru) The Grader Retainer that the city just bailed on was 3.4million but it was a 2 year deal. They say they are "saving" this money. It didn't snow that much in the past few years so they figured they were paying for something they were not using and wasting money hmmmmm there is something new to look into how much DID they use them?

We sure needed them last weekend and I'm sure it will snow again before the end of December. I hope they can work it out before then.

[moahunter]

Originally Posted by Medwards

Did you know that Calgary has chinooks, and a lot less snow that stays on the ground?
Calgary gets away with a lot less snow removal...

Talking to some colleagues in Calgary - we may see them paying more soon. People there are really mad about the recent snow storm and how it was cleared.

A bit like Edmonton a few years ago (when all the bedroom communities "bought up" the right to get shoveled first). We may be paying more, but the service is actually about right now, I think.

[Jocelyn]

Oh yeah Calgary's snow removal program is far from a sweet deal that's for sure! In fact for residential it is worse! Calgary's policy is not to plow non essential residential streets unless there is more than 15cm of snow pack in Edmonton that number is 10cm the reason I know this is because it is mentioned as one of the other recommendations in the audit. Bob Dunford, the Director of Transportation Operations for the City of Edmonton, told me it's not happening yet. I believe it is next on the list. Bob is more optimistic than I am I suppose. Still waiting to hear back on the whole "Leader in Snow Storage" thing. I'd so love to have a personal tour! Hey a girl can dream.....And a woman can make it happen!

[sdimedru]

I acknowledge its great to continously improve, however I think the city did a great job this past weekend in making the streets managable.

[Jocelyn]

Really? Well I'm glad you are happy with the job they did. I found the streets to be far from managable. I think they did the best job they could with what they had and with the snow removal policy that council put in place in 2007. And to all the Graders that answered the city's call even though you lost your retainer "Thanks dudes!" I hope more answer the call when we need them. I'm sorry you lost your retainer but we still need to have safe roads and we can't do it without ya'! Somewhere there is a kid in the back of an ambulance very grateful you for doing such a good job. (too dramatic? poured it on a little too thick maybe? oh I got someone with that one come on admit it!)

[GreenSPACE]

meh, this doesn't seem as serious as it is presented. City spends money on snow removal as necessary, and it is unpredictable, so doesn't always budget for it. It's not rocket science, but the city could be more transparent about what the costs are. I don't think this is a case of them not doing anything at all, I think it has more to do with that they don't want to put a budget line item for something that they may or may not have to spend.

I think this issue is being way too over dramatized.

[Wrecker]

Originally Posted by Titanium48

Calgary may not be a valid comparison, but Winnipeg is. As for snow storage site cleanup costs, perhaps if the snow was plowed BEFORE dumping tonnes of sand and salt on the roads we could use far less sand and salt and it wouldn't cost so much to clean up the storage sites after the snow melts.

It is much faster to sand then to clear.

[GreenSPACE]

Originally Posted by sdimedru

I acknowledge its great to continously improve, however I think the city did a great job this past weekend in making the streets managable.

I agree, I don't know what the average driver has to complain about.

[MJ]

Originally Posted by Titanium48

Calgary may not be a valid comparison, but Winnipeg is. As for snow storage site cleanup costs, perhaps if the snow was plowed BEFORE dumping tonnes of sand and salt on the roads we could use far less sand and salt and it wouldn't cost so much to clean up the storage sites after the snow melts.

I don't see the logic here. Say on the first snow-fall, we clean first and then spread sand or salt. And even with this logic, we're taking a huge leap to consider everything cleaned off the roads has no contaminates we have to worry about. But say it works. What do you do when the second snow-fall comes? Can't exactly vacuum the first coating of sand/salt from the first snow-fall.

Or maybe the first coffee of the day hasn't clicked yet.

[Titanium48]

I'm not suggesting that no cleanup would be required, but if we could reduce our sand usage by 75%, there would be 75% less material that doesn't melt at the snow storage sites. That's 75% less to clean up at the end of summer. That's also 75% less sand forming an insulating layer on the outside of the snowpile as it melts, leading to a reduced need to move the snow around to ensure that it melts before the next winter.

[danimalrex]

The Russians have it right:

First of all, full disclaimer - they're not dormant Decepticons or armies of malevolent AI ready to tackle the world at the first notice. They are simply snow-blowers and jet-dryers used at some Russian airports, like the ones shown below - with Klimov VK-1 engines taken from MiG-15 planes.

http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2009...r-fun-and.html

[moahunter]

^That's awesome. But I'm not sure the silencers are good enough for a jet engine at 2am outside my house cleaning SPR

[Chump]

Originally Posted by danimalrex

The Russians have it right:

http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2009...r-fun-and.html

Sweet. Lets get some. Does the truck just blow itself backwards down the runway?

Do they make a sidewalk version?

[JJMorrocco]

Whatever happend to that 'snow eater' machine that a private busines purchased in Sh Park? I believe it used diesel to melt the snow, the water was then dumped down storm drains. It was said to be more efficient than hauling the snow, and then moving it around in piles...

[Escondido]

With all the money spent moving/storing the snow, etc, how about this idea:

Build seasonal bike lanes on all snow-route roads that are scheduled for snow removal. Then after the first snowfall, those lanes are closed down for the season. In spring, after they are melted, they can be cleaned and opened again for cyclists. Safer for cyclists, cheaper snow removal costs, safer roads because the snow doesn't take up half a lane while waiting for removal...

[newfangled]

^ I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but you basically just defined the city's current policy.

[Escondido]

Actually I am being serious. I understand that some cyclists rely on the biking infrastructure even in the winter, and I would agree that there should be some maintained bike routes for that. But my suggestion is a win-win for the cyclists who don't ride in winter (which I think there are many cyclists who are hard-core in summer and quit for the winter, such as myself). I'd be more than happy if the city installed bike lanes on arteries such as 82 St, 107 Ave, etc and I think that if we can show it is financially beneficial for them to do it (ie snow removal costs go down because those bike lanes can be used for snow removal purposes in winter), than it may actually happen. I would LOVE to have great cycling infrastructure in summer and if the cost of that is that most of that infrastructure is closed for the winter season, I'm all for it.

[grish]

I think the snow storage is actually a good opportnity to create energy efficient cooling systems. Store snow in such a way that air can be circulated through pipes in the snow and then used to replace AC in nearby office buildings. Create a sand recovery and cooling industry similar to Toronto's deep water cooling systems.

[kcantor]

Originally Posted by grish

I think the snow storage is actually a good opportnity to create energy efficient cooling systems. Store snow in such a way that air can be circulated through pipes in the snow and then used to replace AC in nearby office buildings. Create a sand recovery and cooling industry similar to Toronto's deep water cooling systems.

that would be cool if you can pardon the pun. it might not work downtown where most of our office buildings are because of the logistics -not just acquiring a site large enough but handling the tandem dump truck traffic of getting the snow there from the rest of the city - but for something like south campus or the research park or even for the international airport where there's probably very little sand/chemicals in what comes off the runways...

[grish]

yes, it could be most definitely for industrial use or the airport... i wish I knew someone who is developing the commercial space at the international to consider developing this idea further... know anyone like that, ken?

[kcantor]

Originally Posted by grish

yes, it could be most definitely for industrial use or the airport... i wish I knew someone who is developing the commercial space at the international to consider developing this idea further... know anyone like that, ken?

not sure the best person to start with on something like this - maybe paul garbiar?

[KC]

The irony seems to be that without blinking an eye we spend $200+ million on overpasses that benefit only a portion the city's population but resist spending on something that will benefit almost all Edmontonians.

Also I think some of the costs can be attributed to poor design or poor construction / planning / costing foresight. Lack of boulevards, lack of vacant lots, etc for snow storage etc.

[sundance]

Actually the city seems to me to have a good approach to hauling snow with 1 exception. That exception is they tend to (as was previously mentioned) put down and and gravel before even putting their blades down. The gravel trucks have blades it seems to me to be a no-brainer.

As for the facilities they are fairly environmentally freindly, snow melts the melt water is captured in basins filtered by sand gravel and earth so most of the salt, and hydrocarbons do not enter streams or the water table.

Winnipeg for a comparison, yes they spend more on snow removal but far less on side street maintenance. Not to mention once you get off of the perimeter highway in Winnipeg the traffic there makes Calgary's traffic jams look like a Sunday drive. Winnipeg is happy they will get a BRT system from downtown south to the University area, let alone all quadrants of the city or LRT. Its a question of where do you want the money to go, there is only so much money to go around. The 23rd Avenue interchange was needed, snow removal is needed at a certain point, filling potholes is needed, but the pot is only so big, you need to prioritize and different cities have different priorities.

[Blueline]

grish, the central hall at the int. is already HVAC temp modified by their "shark tank" which is basically a huge water filled box that is used as a heat sink.
The idea of using snow is great except for all of the detritus that comes with it. Not insurmountable though

[MrOilers]

After having to drive around the ridiculous snow-filled, gridlocked mess in Calgary all last week, I will never complain about Edmonton's snow removal ever again.

[MikeK]

^ I hear you.

After having spent Christmas and New Year's at my brother's place in Vancouver in 2008-2009 when Vancouver had this insanely heavy snowfall, I won't be complaining about Edmonton's snow removal.

[Edmonton PRT]

In Portland Oregon last year they had a heavy snowfall. The city does not have any snow removal equipment. The city ground to a halt and even the bus system did not operate for the two weeks before Christmas until it melted. Many retailers and restaurants nearly went our of business.

[JJMorrocco]

Originally Posted by grish

I think the snow storage is actually a good opportnity to create energy efficient cooling systems. Store snow in such a way that air can be circulated through pipes in the snow and then used to replace AC in nearby office buildings. Create a sand recovery and cooling industry similar to Toronto's deep water cooling systems.

Why not just a Geothermal system if you are going to invest that much in infrastructure? That way you could heat the place in winter?