Newsflash: Edmonton crosswalks are dangerous!

[Sonic Death Monkey]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...ians-safe.html

While the city continues to target jaywalkers with a ticketing blitz, some pedestrians are saying they don’t feel much safer between the white lines.

"People are just not paying attention and it's that simple," said Lance Woodward, as he stood on the corner of Jasper Avenue and 114th Street.

“You’ll be halfway through an intersection, out 10 feet, and someone will go bombing through there. Not even looking."

Others on the street tell tales of impatient drivers and close calls.

According to data from the city’s Office of Traffic Safety, just shy of 2,000 pedestrians were hit by vehicles between 2006 and October of 2011.

Of those, over 1,200 were crossing with proper right-of-way, compared to 383 who weren’t crossing legally.

Another 119 pedestrians were hit while on the sidewalk.

How about installing lighting and amber signal lights at these crosswalks?

[Medwards]

I think a road diet would be better, especially jasper ave west. Also 114 and jasper already had a full set of lights...

[KC]

Crosswalk safety (idea)
http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/forum...ight=Crosswalk

[MylesC]

I call hyperbole. Are there stupid drivers in Edmonton, yeah, but there are stupid drivers everywhere. As a pedestrian I feel nothing but safe in Edmonton. This is especially true as I'm almost hit daily walking to and from UCLA during the school year.

More lighting, blah, blah, blah, isn't going to do anything - the people that don't pay attention, try to run the light, etc, will STILL DO SO.

It's also a two-way problem. Some drivers are stupid but some pedestrians are flipping IDIOTS as well. I really don't care about jwalking....heck, people do it all the time in London and Athens, but they do it intelligently.
Dashing into the road when there is clearly traffic about to ‘intersect’ you is just moronic.

[EveB]

I second Myles's assertion that endlessly fiddling with the lights will have minimum impact. It might have a small impact on those intersections where there really is a lighting deficit *and* the driver is making a conscientious effort. But there are some drivers (not many, but some) who regard anything in their way with hostility. I've had drivers gun the gas, and pull out of their lane to try to get through a crosswalk more quickly when the other traffic was stopped for a pedestrian. My quick reflexes come in handy.

I have also had the pleasure when foolishly accepting an industrial area job in Calgary of trying to walk on the side of a freeway to get to work. People would speed up and buzz me with their cars. I was amazed. In comparison, walking in central areas is a breeze.

The number of people who get hit while they happen to be on the sidewalk should give the "pedestrians are always at fault" crowd something to think about.

Pedestrians are sometimes at fault. They cross as if the cars will magically come to a stop for them. Most of the time that's true, except when it's not.

Eve

[nobleea]

Spike belts that pop up when the pedestrian crosswalk light it on.

Should take care of things real quick.

[Chmilz]

Everyone's at fault. Some drivers are completely tuned out, and some pedestrians walk into oncoming traffic with their nose in the air and not a care about the laws of physics.

When I drive, I pay attention to pedestrians. When I'm a pedestrian, I make eye contact with drivers, wait until it's safe, and wave to thank them for not turning me into roadkill.

[lobbdogg]

Originally Posted by Chmilz

Everyone's at fault. Some drivers are completely tuned out, and some pedestrians walk into oncoming traffic with their nose in the air and not a care about the laws of physics.

When I drive, I pay attention to pedestrians. When I'm a pedestrian, I make eye contact with drivers, wait until it's safe, and wave to thank them for not turning me into roadkill.

This is what will keep you safe at the end of the day. Look out for yourself, don't expect others to be looking out for you.

However, people getting hit on the sidewalk is a different animal altogether, and I would say is 100% the driver's fault in almost all situations.

[jstock]

The one at 104 ave and 106 st is bad as well. I asked the city for crossing lights and they pretty much told me to go screw myself.

[Sonic Death Monkey]

I've always advocated that all crosswalks should have amber signals. No more crosswalks with red lights, no more crosswalks without signals. There should be consistency here, not the patchwork flip-a-coin options the city seems to employ.

[Marcel Petrin]

I don't think we need more lit crosswalks. If anything I think those make the problem worse, because many drivers seem to be under the impression that they only have to stop for pedestrians at lit crosswalks, otherwise they can just blow through.

What needs to be done is a serious enforcement blitz at well used crosswalks. The one by Joey's on Jasper Avenue is notorious, as is the one by Earl's. 3 of 4 lanes of traffic will come to a stop, a pedestrian will be halfway across the roadway, and some jackass will STILL blow through either oblivious or just not caring.

I bet if you asked the average driver whether they were required to stop at an unlit crosswalk for a pedestrian, they would say no. And further, they'd be shocked at how expensive the fine is and how many demerits it is.

[Sonic Death Monkey]

Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin

I don't think we need more lit crosswalks. If anything I think those make the problem worse, because many drivers seem to be under the impression that they only have to stop for pedestrians at lit crosswalks, otherwise they can just blow through.

Which is why there should be consistency as to how crosswalks are deployed.

[EveB]

The lack of consistency in even the crosswalks that are fully controlled is quite irritating also. There's a crosswalk I use daily where you have to push the pedestrian button if you want to see the walk signal on the next cycle (this is the crosswalk that gets you to the south entrance of the Health Sciences station). Many people forget. Because that cycle is so long we wind up crossing when the walk light should have happened.

Other crosswalks, I have to look around and there is no such button to push. It's sort of random.

Eve

[240GLT]

More signalled crossings, especially at high traffic volume crossings is a very good idea. In our neighborhood, the crossing of 112th ave at 84th street should be signaled as it is heavily used by people walking to the LRT, and people often won't stop for pedestirans. The other one is at 82street, just north of the LRT tracks. Crossing there is downright dangerous sometimes. Lots of people walk to the Stadium Plaza for shopping, and cross at that location.

My pet peave is the timing of the crossing lights. You hit the button, and have to wait seemingly forever for the light to change. Most people get frustrated and just cross when they have a window to do so, then a few minutes later the light changes and cars have to stop for no reason.

[MrOilers]

Sometimes I think this city has a jaywalking problem because the wait times at some pedestrian lights are ridiculously long.

Crossing 103 Ave downtown (walking from MacEwan to Norquest, for instance, takes a couple of minutes for the lights to change, and a lot of people just walk across while their lights are red.

[nobleea]

Not blaming the victim here, but some pedestrians could use a little common sense. Don't mill about and chat with your buddy at the edge of a crosswalk. If you want to cross and someone is already in the crosswalk with vehicles stopped, try and cross with them rather than waiting 2 cars and doing it over again.

And drivers need to quit stopping for cyclists in crosswalks. It creates a belief that they have the same rights as a pedestrian in a crosswalk, which is not right. If a cyclist is dismounted, then they do. Otherwise it'll create a misconception that cyclists can bike across crossings. After they've been hit by a car, might be a bit of a shock to find out they've got to pay for damages to the car. Just the same as if a motorbike biked across a crosswalk.

[Chmilz]

Originally Posted by MrOilers

Sometimes I think this city has a jaywalking problem because the wait times at some pedestrian lights are ridiculously long.

Crossing 103 Ave downtown (walking from MacEwan to Norquest, for instance, takes a couple of minutes for the lights to change, and a lot of people just walk across while their lights are red.

5 minute light cycles for the whole 7 cars per hour that use 103ave... those lights from 102st to 109st need to be flashing red.

[Chmilz]

One area where I find drivers more at fault is when making left hand turns. I cross 97st at 142ave all the time, and drivers making the left turn onto 97st from 142ave just don't even look. I can be in the middle of the street and almost every damn time have to wave my arms, yell, or jump out of the way to avoid being hit by someone putting the pedal to the metal to make that turn.

Some of the problem can definitely be attributed to intersection design, but folks need to look before making a turn.

[azzey]

^ Protected left turns (advance phase) for motorists can help with this, but I agree--far too many people just go without checking for pedestrians.

Yesterday morning I was driving southbound on 97th St and stopped for a pedestrian in the crosswalk...and got rear ended as a result. Would crossing lights have helped avoid the collision in this case? Probably, but low volume crosswalks don't really warrant having lights installed, and motorists should be paying attention anyway.

I do agree with not stopping for cyclists riding through crosswalks. I've almost hit a few who don't even look for traffic and just go--without even stopping.

[AShetsen]

Pedestrians, even careless ones, can be watched for and in most cases stopped for easily, because they are rather slow. In any case pedestrians have absolute right of way.

What is irritating is the cyclists who use the crosswalks as pedestrians without ever getting off their bikes. They dart out far too quickly. Often they don't even look at the road even as they break the traffic laws.

[Chmilz]

To be fair I cross 97st on my bicycle, but I also hit the button, wait for the signal, and cross slowly.

I don't particularly care how someone crosses a crosswalk, but they need to do it smart, and drivers need to obey the rules. If as a pedestrian you simply run or ride out into the street when a car is 10 meters away and you get hit, that's on you. If as a driver there's pedestrians waiting at a crosswalk and you can stop, you damn well better try and stop.

Though, the cut and dry is, no matter who has the right of way, only one party generally dies. As a pedestrian I may have the right to jump in front of your car, but that doesn't make it wise.

[Komrade]

People who are walking need to be the ones to pay attention and GET THE **** OUTTA THE WAY OF SOMETHING THAT CAN KILL YOU!

Even if the driver is in the wrong, do you want to be hit to prove a point?

Jaywalking isnt the issue. Its people who think cars will stop for them because they are 'supposed' to. Ill never test that theory. Run across from corner to corner. Head out of your phone.

[kgb81]

we should change the laws to mirror europe... where the vehicle has the right of way. Only makes sense since it would put the onus on the pedestrian to look out for their own well being.

[The_Cat]

I think it might be great to have traffic light cameras for these intersections, especially with pedestrians:

[exiledincgy]

Having just moved to the Lower Mainland, pedestrians have it great in Alberta. I try and cross a very minor residential streeet with two children under the age of 4 and cars refuse to stop here unless you are actually in front of them. This is a regular occurance. I am standing on the road or even crossing it already and cars on the other side will not stop. In parking lots people will speed up to get past someone trying to get to their car. While driving in a parking lot at Save On a guy actually passed me to get to the exit first. In my humble opinion overall pedestrians have it much better in Alberta than in BC.

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by Chmilz

To be fair I cross 97st on my bicycle, but I also hit the button, wait for the signal, and cross slowly.

I don't particularly care how someone crosses a crosswalk, but they need to do it smart, and drivers need to obey the rules. If as a pedestrian you simply run or ride out into the street when a car is 10 meters away and you get hit, that's on you. If as a driver there's pedestrians waiting at a crosswalk and you can stop, you damn well better try and stop.

Though, the cut and dry is, no matter who has the right of way, only one party generally dies. As a pedestrian I may have the right to jump in front of your car, but that doesn't make it wise.

FYI - it's perfectly legal to ride your bike in a crosswalk. But if you're riding, you won't be considered a pedestrian.

Cyclists are not legally required to dismount at crosswalks and there is nothing to prohibit a cyclist from riding along a crosswalk.

[Replacement]

Originally Posted by AShetsen

Pedestrians, even careless ones, can be watched for and in most cases stopped for easily, because they are rather slow. In any case pedestrians have absolute right of way.

What is irritating is the cyclists who use the crosswalks as pedestrians without ever getting off their bikes. They dart out far too quickly. Often they don't even look at the road even as they break the traffic laws.

As a regular cyclist of course I look if I can proceed at an intersection crossing and with the walk sign. I prefer to not get off the bike. Its one of the ramifications of the city making "bike paths" where I have to intersect a roadway about 50 times. You really think I should get on and off the bike each time?

ftr I do get off at major intersections and walk the bike across as drivers tend not to allow a crossing even with walk sign.

[Replacement]

This seen a few days ago.

I pull off 23avenue enroute to Tokyo Express. This is a main traffic area with several restaurants and cars going by all the time. A teenage girl is standing there right in the main road entranceway to all these restaurants texting on her phone. I repeat just standing there. Anybody coming off 23ave can't see her until you make your turn as trees block the view. Fortunately I'm normally alert and don't run her over. I come to a complete stop. Somebody else coming into the stripmall almost rear ends me. Traffic is backing up to 23avenue. The girl is still standing there texting. Right in the middle of traffic. She starts glaring at me as I look for a way around her(she's completely blocking off egress) and acts flustered that she has to move herself onto a grassy area to complete her messaging. I mean the nerve of me to expect a road to actually be a road.
I would've wasted words on this individual but it was pretty clear she just doesn't get it. The world was turning only for her.

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by Komrade

People who are walking need to be the ones to pay attention and GET THE **** OUTTA THE WAY OF SOMETHING THAT CAN KILL YOU!

Even if the driver is in the wrong, do you want to be hit to prove a point?

Jaywalking isnt the issue. Its people who think cars will stop for them because they are 'supposed' to. Ill never test that theory. Run across from corner to corner. Head out of your phone.

I hope you realize pretty much every single person in the world is aware that if they get hit by a speeding car they can be killed. Telling people that is insulting, akin to saying they are too stupid to realize it.

Suggesting the problem is caused by those who cross according to the laws and get hit anyway is somewhat specious. It leads to a point where pedestrians are expected to be so careful they end up stuck on a corner forever.

To be clear - the problem is drivers who don't stop when they are supposed to, even when other drivers stop.

As someone mentioned above - the key is to look the driver in the eyes.

Another problem, in my opinion, is the courts being far too lenient on drivers who break the law. For example, this driver, who drove through a marked crossing, despite other cars stopped for a pedestrian, and ended up killing someone. Result - a $1500 fine, suspended licence for 30 days and ordered to perform 150 hours of community service.

A $1500 fine for killing someone?

" “I will never forget, because I can’t. I looked down for three seconds to light a cigarette. It takes three seconds for a person to die.”"

He also hit another pedestrian who suffered only minor injuries because he was able to dive out of the way in response to one of the stopped vehicles honking their horn. The victim was wearing headphones, which isn't at all her "fault". Cars had stopped for both pedestrians, who clearly believed it was safe to cross, with good reason.

I can't imagine driving through a crosswalk without looking at all. Here's what the judge had to say:

"“This is not criminal behaviour, this is not deliberate behaviour,” said provincial court Judge Larry Anderson. “People need to pay attention when driving, but human nature leads to lapses.”"

That's a ridiculous ruling in my opinion. Someone was killed! It's "human nature" to drive through a marked crosswalk without looking??????? God I hope not, or we're all doomed.

[AShetsen]

Originally Posted by Replacement

As a regular cyclist of course I look if I can proceed at an intersection crossing and with the walk sign. I prefer to not get off the bike. Its one of the ramifications of the city making "bike paths" where I have to intersect a roadway about 50 times. You really think I should get on and off the bike each time?

Yes, if you expect the right of way.

Here's why: if you are not a pedestrian, you are a vehicle of some sort. Which has the right of way on a big road, not on the small roads intersecting it.

A car driver who makes a habit of crossing, say, 109 street from 79 avenue without stopping and making sure it's possible to cross without forcing the traffic to break will soon enough provoke an accident. After that insurance will take over.

What I am complaining about are the cyclists -- they exist -- who just dart out without stopping, without looking, and implicitly expect the traffic to yield for them.

If you want the automatic right of way assigned to pedestrians at a crosswalk, have the human decency to become a pedestrian and dismount. Which if you do, fine. But the problem is, others do not.

Or if not, cross in such a way no-one will have to brake for you. Which again you say you do. But again others do not.

Cyclists are too fast to brake for easily and safely.

[Replacement]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

I hope you realize pretty much every single person in the world is aware that if they get hit by a speeding car they can be killed. Telling people that is insulting, akin to saying they are too stupid to realize it.

Suggesting the problem is caused by those who cross according to the laws and get hit anyway is somewhat specious. It leads to a point where pedestrians are expected to be so careful they end up stuck on a corner forever.

To be clear - the problem is drivers who don't stop when they are supposed to, even when other drivers stop.

As someone mentioned above - the key is to look the driver in the eyes.

Another problem, in my opinion, is the courts being far too lenient on drivers who break the law. For example, this driver, who drove through a marked crossing, despite other cars stopped for a pedestrian, and ended up killing someone. Result - a $1500 fine, suspended licence for 30 days and ordered to perform 150 hours of community service.

A $1500 fine for killing someone?

" “I will never forget, because I can’t. I looked down for three seconds to light a cigarette. It takes three seconds for a person to die.”"

He also hit another pedestrian who suffered only minor injuries because he was able to dive out of the way in response to one of the stopped vehicles honking their horn. The victim was wearing headphones, which isn't at all her "fault". Cars had stopped for both pedestrians, who clearly believed it was safe to cross, with good reason.

I can't imagine driving through a crosswalk without looking at all. Here's what the judge had to say:

"“This is not criminal behaviour, this is not deliberate behaviour,” said provincial court Judge Larry Anderson. “People need to pay attention when driving, but human nature leads to lapses.”"

That's a ridiculous ruling in my opinion. Someone was killed! It's "human nature" to drive through a marked crosswalk without looking??????? God I hope not, or we're all doomed.

Disagree here Jim. The way I approach crosswalks and how I was taught to is to consider each lane way with caution. It was drilled into me as a child to NEVER take if for granted that all lanes are stopped.

While 2000 vehicles hitting pedestrians in the quoted time span is indication of horrible attention while driving it is pedestrians too who can save the day through greater vigilance(or at all).
Sure legally cars and vehicles have the responsibility. But there should still exist notions of defensive use by all users. Cars, pedestrians, bikes, etc.

I believe responsibility, and modeling that responsibility, should be evoked by all. I wonder if the product of what we're seeing on all sides is people no longer listening to generational advice, and parenting when it comes to safety first. We're missing the boat in an important aspect of streetsafe socialization.

This is a region Jim where several people have walked into moving trains. Clearly theres some pedestrian fault as well.

[Replacement]

Originally Posted by AShetsen

Yes, if you expect the right of way.

Here's why: if you are not a pedestrian, you are a vehicle of some sort.

A car driver who makes a habit of crossing, say, 109 street from 79 avenue without stopping and making sure it's possible to cross without forcing the traffic to break will soon enough provoke an accident. After that insurance will take over.

What I am complaining about are the cyclists -- they exist -- who just dart out without stopping, without looking, and implicitly expect the traffic to yield for them.

If you want the automatic right of way assigned to pedestrians at a crosswalk, have the human decency to become a pedestrian and dismount. Which if you do, fine. But the problem is, others do not.

Or if not, cross in such a way no-one will have to brake for you. Which again you say you do. But again others do not.

Cyclists are too fast to brake for easily and safely.

I assure you I approach each intersection with caution(I have to) as you can't take any action for granted on the roads out there.

Heres one driver check that gets commonly missed. I'm on a MAIN designate bike path. Its intersecting with a side road in which the driver has the stop sign and is turning right. I'm going straight through. Guess what % of drivers in this city look ONLY to their left for oncoming traffic and don't even once glance right. I can't even make eye contact with these people. They don't attend to the bell either. Most times they are completely blocking the path way as they wait to merge into traffic. It could be a pedestrian, bike, stroller, anything approaching. What it represents is a cognitive slip up in peoples driving habits. Look both ways ALWAYS. You never know.

A side story. Driving on a rural range road in winter a few years ago, come to stop at stop sign at intersection of a highway. Of course I'm looking left to see if traffic is coming and if I have a considerable break that allows me to enter highway. But I look right as well as I always do just in case(so few driver actually do this) before pulling out. Of course some ahole is passing somebody right there, right in the right lane I'd be merging into, despite a solid line, despite road conditions, some jackass just had to pass somebody on a highway at a marked intersection. I shook my head knowing this would've been a head on collision and instant death at the hands of the speeding pickup. I'm convinced this driver had no conception of what he'd actually done or why he shouldn't.

Thats going off topic but is a message of why good driving habits are important.

[Komrade]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

I hope you realize pretty much every single person in the world is aware that if they get hit by a speeding car they can be killed. Telling people that is insulting, akin to saying they are too stupid to realize it.
.

What im saying is no matter what the law is, I never use it as a safety net to my advantage. Always look where you are going. Watch the cars. Cross only when its SAFE. A little white man on a light doesnt mean its safe (even tho its supposed to). Cars can kill you. Get the **** out of their way by any means.

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by Komrade

What im saying is no matter what the law is, I never use it as a safety net to my advantage. Always look where you are going. Watch the cars. Cross only when its SAFE. A little white man on a light doesnt mean its safe (even tho its supposed to). Cars can kill you. Get the **** out of their way by any means.

I get what you mean. I think we all do. That's my point. We all know cars can kill us. We all know we shouldn't cross when it's unsafe. Telling us to look where we are going presumes we're stupid. Sorry if I come across as dumping on you.

I refuse to live in fear of drivers. I'm cautious, as we all are, but we can easily put too fine a point on it. If I'm crossing in a marked crosswalk, and it looks like a vehicle is going to stop, I'm going on faith that they will, and keeping an eye on them.

I refuse to defer to cars all of the time, as is suggested by your post. It's a bit of a red herring, and blames the victim, when 100% of the blame is bad drivers.

The vast, overwhelming majority of drivers will stop. I look in the eyes of the driver if possible, but I'm not going to live in fear of the extremely small percentage who won't. That only leads to paralysis for me.

[AShetsen]

^Just one question. When you cross in a marked sidewalk and expect cars to stop, do you do it on foot (with or without bike in hand) or are you riding?

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by Replacement

Disagree here Jim. The way I approach crosswalks and how I was taught to is to consider each lane way with caution. It was drilled into me as a child to NEVER take if for granted that all lanes are stopped.

While 2000 vehicles hitting pedestrians in the quoted time span is indication of horrible attention while driving it is pedestrians too who can save the day through greater vigilance(or at all).
Sure legally cars and vehicles have the responsibility. But there should still exist notions of defensive use by all users. Cars, pedestrians, bikes, etc.

I believe responsibility, and modeling that responsibility, should be evoked by all. I wonder if the product of what we're seeing on all sides is people no longer listening to generational advice, and parenting when it comes to safety first. We're missing the boat in an important aspect of streetsafe socialization.

This is a region Jim where several people have walked into moving trains. Clearly theres some pedestrian fault as well.

Are you advising us not to step in front of a train? Hey, thanks.

Anyone foolish enough to step in front of a train isn't likely to heed any advice. Trains aren't supposed to stop, and can't.

I have a big problem with the all too common refrain that starts "I know what the law is, but ...". We all get it as cyclists - from some drivers who don't believe bicycles belong on the road at all. (as in "I know bicycles are legally allowed on our roads, but if they get hit by a truck it doesn't matter that they were in the right").

What that really says is motor vehicles come first, despite the rules of the road. It's an excuse to make cyclists, and pedestrians, second class citizens because someone else is bigger.

We're too quick to turn and blame the victim. Let's keep the focus on the real problem - bad drivers.

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by AShetsen

^Just one question. When you cross in a marked sidewalk and expect cars to stop, do you do it on foot (with or without bike in hand) or are you riding?

I don't expect cars to stop in either case. I take a look, as almost everybody does.

Vehicles are supposed to stop for pedestrians, of course. When I'm walking, I'm a pedestrian. When I'm on my bike, I'm not. I NEVER get off my bike to walk across a crosswalk. It would take me all day to get to work if I did.

In my experience most drivers are courteous, and will stop for me as I wait on my bike at a crossing. They know they don't have to. They do it because they are being considerate and nice. I appreciate it.

Why are so many so quick to blame the pedestrian?

[Replacement]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

[Are you advising us not to step in front of a train? Hey, thanks.

Anyone foolish enough to step in front of a train isn't likely to heed any advice. Trains aren't supposed to stop, and can't.

I have a big problem with the all too common refrain that starts "I know what the law is, but ...". We all get it as cyclists - from some drivers who don't believe bicycles belong on the road at all. (as in "I know bicycles are legally allowed on our roads, but if they get hit by a truck it doesn't matter that they were in the right").

What that really says is motor vehicles come first, despite the rules of the road. It's an excuse to make cyclists, and pedestrians, second class citizens because someone else is bigger.

We're too quick to turn and blame the victim. Let's keep the focus on the real problem - bad drivers.

My response was merely to counter your take that its always the drivers fault. Pedestrians sure do share the blame in the carnage that occurs out there. Its not simply "blaming the victim" as you put it but people adopting safer habits so that they don't become a victim. The train example was just meant to exhibit how theres instances where the pedestrian is clearly solely at fault. My post #28 gives another example.

You seem to have an all or nothing polarized take on this.

[MrOilers]

Originally Posted by kgb81

we should change the laws to mirror europe... where the vehicle has the right of way.

No way. Everyone has a right to walk, but driving is a privilege.

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by Replacement

My response was merely to counter your take that its always the drivers fault. Pedestrians sure do share the blame in the carnage that occurs out there. Its not simply "blaming the victim" as you put it but people adopting safer habits so that they don't become a victim. The train example was just meant to exhibit how theres instances where the pedestrian is clearly solely at fault. My post #28 gives another example.

You seem to have an all or nothing polarized take on this.

Sorry, I should have stuck a smiley with the train comment - a poor attempt at levity.

Remember, we're talking about a hypothetical situation here, and the discussion immediately turns to blaming the pedestrian. I do have an all or nothing take on this, as does the law. My problem, as I stated, is with the "I know it's the law, but ...". I've heard it so many times as a cyclist that it gets under my skin. I can't count the number of times I've been told, to my face, with best intentions, that if I get hit by a car it doesn't matter if I'm in the right, I'm still going to be killed. Do they think somehow I don't know that, that I haven't figured that out?

It comes across, to me at least, as suggesting it's not really the law, more like a soft guideline, and as an attempt to somehow diminish my rights, blaming me, in advance, despite being in the right place and doing the right thing.

It also deflects the blame away from the driver. The fact they may have a vehicle that weighs a ton in no way diminishes their 100% culpability. In fact, it should put an exclamation point on their responsibility to pay attention and drive according to the law.

It is "blaming the victim" to suggest a pedestrian who obeys the laws is at fault. Outside of someone hiding in the bushes and darting out in front of traffic, or something similarly spectacularly stupid, it's a drivers responsibility to pay attention and drive according to the rules.

[banisheddragon]

Everybody is so focused on placing blame...

Rather than placing blame we could focus on fixing the problem, human beings...not "pedestrians" or "cyclists" are being killed. Part of the equation to eliminating this is changing the ways our cities are built, incorporate slower speed limits, I read somewhere that a collision travelling 50km/hr has a 90% chance of being fatal, however if you reduce the speed to 30km/hr this is dropped to 10%.

Lets provide the separation for cyclists from the vehicular traffic with separated lanes.

Roadways at intersections and crossings should be redesigned to bring focus onto the fact that humans are crossing the street on foot. this can be done by narrowing the street as you approach an instersection or crossing. This can also be done by elevating the crossings and intersections to truly bring attentions to those on foot. Measures should be done to reduce speeds at crossings and intersections, people should not be blowing through an intersection at anytime.

Lets change laws such that those that gain the privilege to drive, drive with the care that is required when you are taking others lives into your hands.

What is very surprising is that drinking and driving is still socially acceptable.

Lets stop blaming the victim and get the right design so that humans can get where they need to, and not at the expense of the vehicles.

Walking lights should always give those crossing the lead into the intersection first to make sure that they are visible to drivers.