Stranded at LHR thanks to Air Canada

[faraz]

So this past weekend, my family (pregnant wife and 8 month old infant) were set to fly from YEG to Istanbul via London. I had gone out of my way and chosen the direct LHR flight to support YEG and because it was the shortest route. Upon checkin at YEG, the Air Canada rep completely missed the flag on their system stating that my wife requires a visa to Turkey and checked us in.

So we flew to London and when we tried to board the British Airways flight to Istanbul, we were denied entry. So I went back to the Air Canada counter at LHR and the lady flat out refused to help me in any way other than to book a flight back to Edmonton. According to her, "it wasn't her problem that I was stranded without a destination."

Fortunately, I was able to find other airlines (Emirates, Turkish, etc.) whose reps were kind to go out of their way to think of different options for me to get out of the mess. To make matters worse, my daughter developed an allergic reaction. While I tried the different options proposed, none of them worked out and I had no choice but to catch the next flight back to Edmonton which required an overnight stay. UK immigration issued my wife a 24 hour visa so we don't have to sleep at the airport.

The next day we flew back to Edmonton only to discover that our luggage has been lost by AC. The AC team lead at YEG accepted that it was their mistake for letting us fly and should have stopped us from boarding (apparently the guy who checked us in is new and doesn't know all the rules.)

She asked me to contact customer relations who will do something for me. Since AC customer relations doesn't have a phone number, I emailed them with all the details and frankly, I'm not expecting much to come out of it very fast.

I should mention that before leaving, I had confirmed with the Turkish consulate in Toronto and the Ministry of Turkish Foreign affairs about visa requirement and my wife didn't require a visa before arrival. But apparently the airlines' systems are not upto date yet. This is why I feel that AC should have caught that instead of letting us fly plus they accepted their mistake.

I've asked AC to rebook my flight and compensate me for out of pocket expenses in London (~$500). Does anyone have a similar experience with AC and can you please let me know if they were helpful? I am willing to go as far as taking legal action to recover my costs and show AC they can't just screw over customers but of course that would be the last option.

Any advice on the matter?

[faraz]

I should mention that I fly overseas quite a bit and depending on AC's response, this could be the last time I fly AC to LHR direct. I'm a big supporter of YEG direct flights but I don't want to be held hostage because of it.

[edmonton daily photo]

Just stick to the fact that the AC attendant in London was wrong and be done with it.

If you muddy your message with all the other stuff you just sound like a complainer.

You did your research, you met the needs of the Turkish Gov't the London rep was wrong and they owe you. Then send documentation showing that a visa prior to arrival isn't required.

lets not pretend that mistakes don't happen on other airlines cause they do.

[faraz]

The reps in LHR were right in that their system stated my wife required a visa. But all of them (BA, Turkish, Emirates) said that AC should have caught that in Edmonton and not let you fly. This was even admitted to by the AC team lead in YEG.

But I like your point of not muddying the message. Thanks for that.

[Chmilz]

^^Agreed. Keep it simple and to the point. If you fly with AC a lot make sure you have a list of recent travels handy, most airlines are fiercely protective of repeat customers. Of course, be diplomatic, if they've already lost you as a customer there's no incentive for them to help you, but if helping you will retain a repeat customer, they have every reason to help you out.

[faraz]

EDP, everyone makes mistakes but when stranded in a foreign country with an infant and a pregnant wife, the matter becomes very serious. This is why I don't want to let the matter slide.

[EdmTrekker]

Originally Posted by faraz

I should mention that I fly overseas quite a bit and depending on AC's response, this could be the last time I fly AC to LHR direct. I'm a big supporter of YEG direct flights but I don't want to be held hostage because of it.

Your making it seem like YEG is a problem or that the flight to LHR was a problem. They were not. YEG is a great airport and the LHR flight quick and comfortable. Unfortunately your issue is with the Air Canada desk people thats all if the "flag issue"on the computer is their responsibility. Was it? Your flight from LHR was on British Airways...which means you had a separate ticket. Maybe the problem is BA or a travel agent in that they sold you a ticket without the Visa....as you say. Having been to Istanbul Atarturk, Visas are sold right in the hall prior to customs and have been for 30 years.

Good luck with your travel plans and give YEG a hug...its OUR airport

[faraz]

I'll still fly YEG but not necessarily AC.
Not sure why you think it's BA's fault when AC accepted their mistake.

[EdmTrekker]

Originally Posted by faraz

I'll still fly YEG but not necessarily AC.
Not sure why you think it's BA's fault when AC accepted their mistake.

AC does not book British Airways. You MUST have had 2 tickets separate tickets. AC is only responsible for your flight YEG to LHR and return. NOT the LHR to IST. I assume you used a travel agent - or you would know this or do know it because you booked 2 separate tickets.

[faraz]

Sorry to disappoint but it was not two separate tickets. My luggage was checked in from YEG to IST. Airlines don't have to be in an alliance to have connecting flights.

[EdmTrekker]

Originally Posted by faraz

Sorry to disappoint but it was not two separate tickets. My luggage was checked in from YEG to IST. Airlines don't have to be in an alliance to have connecting flights.

It was booked by a travel agent to have that happen. AC is star alliance and you would only be able to fly on Lufthansa in the first instance or Turkish Airlines if from other than a main HUB. You said you flew BA which means you used a travel agent or you bought 2 tickets. Its that plain and simple. In such instances - the AC portion of the ticket WILL have different rules and responsibilities. You really need to be better informed on purchase of tickets like that from travel agents.

[faraz]

EdmTrekker, not sure why you are so adamant about this when AC team lead at YEG accepted it was their mistake. Unless you are in the airline industry and know better than the AC team lead, I would drop this argument.

[lat]

Originally Posted by EdmTrekker

It was booked by a travel agent to have that happen. AC is star alliance and you would only be able to fly on Lufthansa in the first instance or Turkish Airlines if from other than a main HUB. You said you flew BA which means you used a travel agent or you bought 2 tickets. Its that plain and simple. In such instances - the AC portion of the ticket WILL have different rules and responsibilities. You really need to be better informed on purchase of tickets like that from travel agents.

wtf is your problem?

[kcantor]

from the government of canada website (emphasis added):

Whatever the purpose of their stay (work, tourism, business, studies), Canadians must be in possession of a visa to visit Turkey. Canadians are encouraged to obtain a visa at the nearest Turkish embassy or consulate prior to their arrival at any Turkish point of entry. Visas obtained upon arrival are subject to a cash only euro or USD payment.

also from the government of canada website:

Some countries will issue a visa upon your arrival, but it is not a common procedure. Visas must be obtained before leaving Canada. You may be denied entry if you do not have a visa upon arrival in another country.

from the government of turkey website:

Canada: Ordinary and official passport holders are required to have visa to enter Turkey. Ordinary passport holders can obtain three-month multiple entry visas at the Turkish border gates.

also from the goverment of turkey website however:

• Despite the visa regime applied towards the citizens of a country, the travel document holders of that country need to obtain visa from Turkish missions beforehand.
• All foreigners, except for those exempt from visa requirement, should obtain their visas at the Turkish missions. Those foreigners, who can obtain sticker type visas at the Turkish border gates, may also have their visas at the Turkish missions, alternatively.

from air canada's website:

You should check with your travel agent or the appropriate foreign diplomatic or consular missions about the visa requirements for the countries that you plan to visit or transit through.

• Obtain visas well in advance of your anticipated departure date; this may involve mailing your passport to the visa-issuing mission.

on air canada's site, it seems to be impossible to book a flight from edmonton to instanbul - it's either first to toronto or montreal and then munich or hamburg and then - through an alliance partner - to istanbul. it is impossible to book an air canada flight on their site from london to istanbul (or from munich or hamburg for that matter). travelocity will book edmonton to istanbul on the direct flight to heathrow and then british airways to istanbul and identifies it as a "change planes in london".

i don't know what their paperwork would look like (one "ticket" or two) or what a travel agent's paperwork would look like as opposed to what air canada's looks like but i'm not sure why you take offense at EdmTrekker thinking you had to have booked through an agent - even an online one like travelocity or price.com - without actually confirming that you did or did not book through an agent (something i don't see you denying). and if it was a "real" agent and not an on-line booking - and even possibly with an online booking - would that not just give you one more avenue to pursue for compensation?

i'm also not sure exactly what it is you expect air canada to have done? you say "they shouldn't have allowed you to board in edmonton" but that wouldn't have got you to your destination even if it would have complied with their policy on requiring a visa prior to boarding. it would seem to me that if visas are available at the airport in istanbul that it is that very policy that you feel is wrong given your circumstances in not having one, not their failure to enforce it (assuming you are traveling on a canadian passport and don't have any other circumstances that would require a prior visa issuance by turkey). and if that's the case, shouldn't your issue be with british airways who did not allow you to board at heathrow, not air canada for getting you that far?

i'm not trying to be argumentative but - as pointed out earlier - suggesting that you put aside your emotions about what was clearly a traumatic and unfortunate event and review what really took place and who may have shared some responsibility in creating that event. after all, ac may well have "accepted their mistake" but even if they hadn't made it you would not have arrived at your intended destination so i'm unclear as to what you might expect of them. as edp said, facts stated as briefly as possible will speak volumes and honey is more attractive than vinegar.

[faraz]

^So why do you think the AC team lead said it was AC's fault and even went as far as to ask me who the check-in agent was so they can speak with him on why he let us on?

[faraz]

I should re-iterate that my purpose on posting here was not to get advice on who is in the wrong. But rather on how to deal with customer relations at AC to obtain a positive outcome assuming some of you might have experience.

[faraz]

kcantor, I would have been perfectly happy not taking off if the visa issue had been pointed at YEG. Per AC's words, "this is part of our job that we are trained for." But to let us fly was a serious mistake. I'm not asking for anyone to get fired or filing a $20million lawsuit (ala AC's plunge passengers).

I would still have my tickets if I was made aware of this issue at YEG (albeit with a penalty for re-scheduling). But now I've lost our tickets completely. All I want is our tickets rebooked at no cost and London expenses for hotel/food paid.

[kcantor]

Originally Posted by faraz

^So why do you think the AC team lead said it was AC's fault and even went as far as to ask me who the check-in agent was so they can speak with him on why he let us on?

i didn't dispute that at all - just noted that it would not have gotten you to istanbul which i presume was the real objective.

Originally Posted by faraz

I should re-iterate that my purpose on posting here was not to get advice on who is in the wrong. But rather on how to deal with customer relations at AC to obtain a positive outcome assuming some of you might have experience.

you have received some good advice on obtaining a positive outcome, not only from air canada but potentially from british airways. you may also want to point out to the turkish consulate and their ministry of foreign affairs what took place as a result of your relying on the information they provided you. and there is always your travel agent - or site - if there was a travel agent or site involved in booking your ticket(s).

Originally Posted by faraz

kcantor, I would have been perfectly happy not taking off if the visa issue had been pointed at YEG. Per AC's words, "this is part of our job that we are trained for." But to let us fly was a serious mistake. I'm not asking for anyone to get fired or filing a $20million lawsuit (ala AC's plunge passengers).

I would still have my tickets if I was made aware of this issue at YEG (albeit with a penalty for re-scheduling). But now I've lost our tickets completely. All I want is our tickets rebooked at no cost and London expenses for hotel/food paid.

without having all of the facts and information available to you - ie was the heathrow to istanbul segment paid to air canada or was a ticket issued by british airways and was that ticket(s) issued directly or was there an agent in between (in fact if not in person) - i'm not sure your expectations are realistic, at least not without british airways also being at the table because if they had allowed you to board on the basis a visa could be acquired at istanbul, this thread wouldn't exist. there are at least three or four parties "at the table" here - in addition to yourself - and you might not be advancing your case as expeditiously or as far as possible by insisting that only air canada should be involved in keeping you whole.

[JustYeggin]

Last year, I flew IAD-FRA-IST. NO issues at all. I arrived in IST and made my way to the visa desk, paid my 60 bucks and in less than 20 minutes, I was out in a taxi. I have a Canadian passport. My wife, US passport.

Getting a visa to enter Turkey is soooooo easy.

I am not sure I understand this thread.

[jbubble]

I have found AC customer relations to be very good.

However as has been pointed out, the visa should have been obtained beforehand and that is no ones responsibility other than the traveller. Of course there is the option of obtaining as you enter which is also doable. If you had a 24 visa for the UK why not just pop down to the Turkish embassy in London and catch the BA flight the following day. BA very likely would have changed the flight for you.

So do not expect anything from AC, not their issue.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JustYeggin

Last year, I flew IAD-FRA-IST. NO issues at all. I arrived in IST and made my way to the visa desk, paid my 60 bucks and in less than 20 minutes, I was out in a taxi. I have a Canadian passport. My wife, US passport.

Getting a visa to enter Turkey is soooooo easy.

I am not sure I understand this thread.

Me too. Ten years ago, I flew YYC-YUL on Air Canada and YUL-CDG-IST on Air France. I bought the sticker-type visa at the airport, for $35 USD. At no time did I have any issues. (Well, except for missing my connection in CDG, that's 9 hours I'll never get back...)

I am astonished that British Airways would not let you board.

[LO 044]

I'm confused. Didn't the Turkish Consulate tell you your wife doesn't need a visa? If they said your wife needed a visa then you would have simply not even boarded the flight regardless of what the AC employee told you at the airport. I would be asking the Turkish consulate for an explanation.

Any way you put it, Visa's are the complete responsibility of the traveller. You could complain to AC about rudeness but that's about it. kcantor pointed out the government of Canada website. What did the Turkish consulate website say? I would never trust any airline employee for visa / immigration details but i would trust a country's consulate.

Judging by Adam's comments, it seems BA also didn't know what they were doing.

I am flying back on the LHR-YEG flight in the middle of July with a preganant wife and 1.5 year old daughter. We will see what my experience is like. I have heard from many that staff at LHR are quite rude and the airport is less than stellar for connections.

[faraz]

Thanks for the comments everyone.
There are a few aviation rules which I had plenty of time to discover while I was stranded at LHR:

1. the rules for visa/immigration in the airlines' system trumps everything else. Meaning the Turkish embassy in London or even Ottawa could have called and it would make no difference. The check-in agents are required to follow what's in their system. Period.

2. In the aviation world, it is the responsibility of the airline that does the initial boarding to check if the traveller's documents are upto date to reach their final destination. If not, the airline needs to point that out and not let the traveler fly. If that is not done, the airline has not done their job and are responsible. So while leaving Canada, it would be AC and coming back it would be BA's responsibility to check all the documents before departure.

3. Finally, AC accepted their mistake and therefore all of this discussion is a moot point. I use to think I know a lot about aviation rules reading C2E, Airliners, skyscraper, etc. and perhaps that's how others on here feel too.

[edmontonenthusiast]

That is really horrible, faraz. Don't really have much advice other than stuff that's been said, though people are being a little unhelpful to you. You had the crappy circumstance, and people decide to question you. Gotta love critical and overanalyticals.

Anyways, yeah, just avoid Air Canada if possible. If another company can do it and it isn't much longer or much more expensive, it's worth it if you don't mind that. Never had that bad of an issue, but never really had much good from them (aside from arriving in new destinations, which you'd get from any airline). If you want to support the Canadian economy, do Westjet or Air North. Otherwise, leave it to the European, U.S., and certain Asian airlines.

[jbubble]

Originally Posted by edmontonenthusiast

That is really horrible, faraz. Don't really have much advice other than stuff that's been said, though people are being a little unhelpful to you. You had the crappy circumstance, and people decide to question you. Gotta love critical and overanalyticals.

Anyways, yeah, just avoid Air Canada if possible. If another company can do it and it isn't much longer or much more expensive, it's worth it if you don't mind that. Never had that bad of an issue, but never really had much good from them (aside from arriving in new destinations, which you'd get from any airline). If you want to support the Canadian economy, do Westjet or Air North. Otherwise, leave it to the European, U.S., and certain Asian airlines.

Have fun getting to Europe with Westjet and Air North.

[edmontonenthusiast]

Hence the "Otherwise..." section. Wow.

[faraz]

Originally Posted by edmontonenthusiast

That is really horrible, faraz. Don't really have much advice other than stuff that's been said, though people are being a little unhelpful to you. You had the crappy circumstance, and people decide to question you. Gotta love critical and overanalyticals.

Anyways, yeah, just avoid Air Canada if possible. If another company can do it and it isn't much longer or much more expensive, it's worth it if you don't mind that. Never had that bad of an issue, but never really had much good from them (aside from arriving in new destinations, which you'd get from any airline). If you want to support the Canadian economy, do Westjet or Air North. Otherwise, leave it to the European, U.S., and certain Asian airlines.

Thanks EdmontonE. I mostly travel to Asia overseas so I will be seriously considering Emirates, Qatar, Etihad, KLM, etc. from now on. They might cost more but their service is top notch, just one of the many reasons they are routinely considered the best in the world.

[53latitude]

Not sure why this happened to you, I flew YEG-LHR-IST on AC/Turkish Airways last summer. I received my tourist visa upon arrival. No issue at all. I understand the frustration with Air Canada's reponsed at LHR, but maybe your issue should be more with British Airways and their corporate policy of making you obtain an entrance visa to turkey prior to arriving?

[Gord Lacey]

Sounds like the biggest problem is that BA has incorrect information in their system as to the visa requirements.

Do you have any kind of coverage on a credit card that would have been used for the tickets? Not sure if it would be applicable here because of the visa requirements, but it's another avenue to explore.

[FlyFlyAway]

Originally Posted by EdmTrekker

AC does not book British Airways. You MUST have had 2 tickets separate tickets. AC is only responsible for your flight YEG to LHR and return. NOT the LHR to IST. I assume you used a travel agent - or you would know this or do know it because you booked 2 separate tickets.

From http://www.aircanada.com/en/travelin...ket/index.html:

Non-Star Interline E-Ticket Partners
.
.
BA British Airways

Interline means, among other things, a single ticket with flights from both airlines. In addition, Air Canada will issue a ticket with a BA flight included. Just because they don't post (many of?) those flights on their web site booking tool, does not mean that they don't sell it. In this case, through a travel agency.

Here's an AC-ticketed example for a flight July 12 (courtesy ITA Software):

Edmonton (YEG) to Istanbul (IST) - Thu, Jul 12
Edmonton (YEG) to London (LHR) - Thu, Jul 12
Air Canada 898 Dep: 10:25PM Arr: 2:05PM 8h 40m Boeing 767 Economy (B)
Layover in LHR Fri, Jul 13 3h 40m

London (LHR) to Istanbul (IST) - Fri, Jul 13
British Airways 680 Dep: 5:45PM Arr: 11:40PM 3h 55m Airbus A320 Economy (B)

Fare construction (can be useful to travel agents)
YEA AC X/LON BA IST Q15.05 2260.04BWFFEO NUC 2275.09 END ROE 0.99644 XT 25.91CA 25.00SQ 1.25XG 42.30UB 208.00YQ

[McBoo]

Considered Turkey myself and was aware you could get a visa right at IST, so it does seem that BA was the real problem.

That aside - hope you get compensation from some responsible party.

And if you decide to ultimately boycott the LHR flight, please consider using a U.S. gateway city - thereby still supporting YEG.

[FlyFlyAway]

Faraz, first my sympathies on an unpleasant experience. Regardless of cause or outcome, having a trip interrupted is unfortunate and difficult to deal with. I hope your heart rate has returned to normal, and I'm glad to hear that you're not giving up on air travel.

Based upon your original post, I'm still not 100% clear on what occurred. As such, clarifying the comments to Air Canada (as you've already indicated will be done) will be helpful. I find putting "the facts" in the lead section, followed by your reaction and emotions at the time. Admit that you're not the expert, but this is "what you experienced/felt/saw", is a useful construction for a customer feedback letter. And remember, if you want something, if you know what you want, state it clearly upfront (i.e. lead paragraph) and then restate it at the end. Leave "threats" such as not flying with their airline for a follow-up letter - they already know your business is at risk without you stating it.

If I read this thread correctly, the following occurred:
1. Upon checking in and receiving a boarding pass from an AC agent at YEG, the (inexperienced) customer service agent failed to note a visa requirement check for the final destination in his/her system, failed to confirm that passenger(s) had met the visa requirement, and allowed passenger(s) to board an initial flight segment. If the visa requirement proved accurate, passenger(s) and party would either be stranded at connecting airport (LHR), or refused entry at destination (IST).
Q: Did you receive a boarding pass for the BA flight in Edmonton? Did BA discover this at their visa/document check desk, or were you required to get a boarding pass inside security at Heathrow? Typically you have to re-check on interline non-alliance, but thought I'd ask.
2. Upon re-check and/or document/visa check - which does not include baggage since baggage was (correctly) checked through to IST - the BA customer service agent identified a visa requirement in his/her system, attempted to confirm that the visa requirement was met, at which point you discovered that you did not meet the visa requirement as listed in the BA system. As required, BA did not allow you to board the connecting flight, and BA referred you to your originating carrier as they are responsible for returning you to your origin since you did not meet the conditions of carriage for your destination.
3. The AC customer service agent did not feel it was their responsibility to return you to your origin due to a visa requirement issue. Depending upon the information available to that agent, and your explanation of the situation, this could be understandable...but it would appear to be an incorrect assessment by the agent. The more clarity you can bring to this portion of your flight experience, the better the case you have on compensation. Try to remember exactly what was said, in addition to your feelings about the helpfulness of the agent. Compare and contrast to the assistance you received from other airlines' customer service agents. Understand that once AC realized that they failed the visa check, something you weren't aware of until you returned to YEG, they are responsible for your carriage. That doesn't mean they have to put you on the next flight (or even next week's flight), or put you in a hotel, or arrange for a 24-hour UK visa. Those are things they can do, and in this case apparently chose not to.
Q: Who was your ticketing carrier?
4. Q: When did the checked bags get lost? After your visa check? Or did you promptly receive your checked bags from BA once denied boarding, use them overnight, then check them with AC on your return flight only to have them fail to arrive with you in YEG? If you did not receive them from BA, that's BA's fault. Once the BA agent denied you boarding, the agent should have made you aware of where and when your checked luggage would be made available to you.
5. Upon arrival in YEG, a very helpful and considerate (correct?) team lead provided an explanation of the situation, apologized for the incorrect procedures at YEG, and indicated that AC customer service could further assist you to resolve this situation and in your future travel planning. Hence, the e-mail to customer service.... You hope that the team lead was not incorrect in their understanding.
6. On top of the challenges with the visa check process, on top of the issue with returning you to your origin, there is an issue with the actual requirements for a visa. Since AC and BA seem to be in agreement (as they should - they use the exact same source for their information: http://www.iatatravelcentre.com/ is the human-friendly version of it), it is difficult to fault an agent for enforcing the rules as they know them. However, the airlines and their IATA association can be faulted - and can be held responsible - for the inaccurate information they are using. If you can provide proof that you did not require a visa, then the entire mess that you and your family ended up in could have been avoided. This link should be all that is required for a Canadian passport holder to allow a supervisor to permit travel to IST airport, should be all that is required for an AC senior customer service agent to accommodate your rebooking to IST with their apologies for the confusion. What that apology looks like is in part up to you - what are you asking from AC? In your correspondence, note the recent "update" to the visa information (if that's applicable in your wife's case - not sure if she carries a Canadian passport), and express understanding that a computer system or an agent can make mistakes. Mistakes can be remedied by helpful customer service agents, preferably before your trip is disrupted, but in this case with appropriate consideration after the fact.

Hopefully this walk-through helps you construct future written correspondence with Air Canada and British Airways. In my experience, Air Canada and British Airways may generally provide you with fully re-booked travel, if your experience is as you described above. Beyond that, you could expect a very small credit - $500? - towards future travel with the airline you booked your flight with. This is to demonstrate their good faith belief that their customer service during your trip did not meet the airline's high expectations, not necessarily to compensate you for a mistake the airline made. If you want compensation, small claims court is over there. Good luck. Personally, I would ask for a higher level of credit that reflects the seriousness of the combined customer service failures during my trip...but I think that's what you can expect. A travel agent could offer better advice.

If you booked with a human-staffed travel agency, I'd also speak with them about why they didn't flag the visa requirement to you at booking. A skilled and knowledgeable agent would have noted past visa requirements if those requirements had recently changed, or if airlines regularly have issues with visa requirements to your destination. Of course, "Expedia" and the like do it differently...much more self-serve.

As for your evaluation of Air Canada's service...in my experience, Air Canada has just slightly below-average customer service. To be honest, it's BA's service at document check I'd be steamed at, but only if I knew that I didn't need a visa prior to arrival at IST. Your inability to pursue the matter with them when your documents were checked - for whatever reason - is the underlying cause of the interrupted trip. I've also been through document checks, and know that passengers and agents are at their very worst at that point in the boarding process. Errors and disagreements and poor personal relations are extremely common. It's one reason that airlines try to do those checks during the check-in process, when they hopefully have their best-and-brightest available to assist, and when there's usually more time available for both the airline (trying to get their flight out on-time) and the passenger. Subject to your clarification of the events, I wouldn't look to avoid Air Canada based upon having your trip interrupted. I might avoid Air Canada depending upon your LHR experience, but would expect an AC credit would be sufficient to demonstrate that their service wasn't satisfactory, and have you (without you family) give them a second chance to prove their worth. But sure, when flying with children I'd look elsewhere until AC proved themselves to you. As for BA, if their only mistake was using inaccurate information in their system, and you felt that they did OK in their relations with you, great. If they didn't respond to your assertion that you didn't need a visa, or if they didn't provide your checked luggage in a professional manner, then I'd consider avoiding BA before I worried about AC.

In my opinion, AC didn't offer you any customer service upon check-in in YEG. BA offered you some service - you'll have to tell us whether it was good, bad, or ugly. AC offered you poor customer service in LHR. Again, assuming your understanding of the situation (and my reading of it above) is factually correct.

I wish you the very best of luck in your future flights, whatever happens. Hopefully Air Canada feels that your experience is unusual and deserves their consideration and a reasonable attempt to regain your future business.

Disclaimer: I'm not in the airline or travel business, none of the above should be considered advice. Just happen to be a traveller who's been in situations requiring additional customer service before.

[faraz]

Thank you FFA for a thoughtful response.

1. I did not receive boarding passes for BA as I was told they would be obtained at Heathrow.

2. Correct

3. When I approached AC rep in Heathrow and explained the situation, she said all she can do is send me back. I said that's fine but can you please provide me the phone number for Turkish embassy in London or Ottawa so I can speak with them about this. That didn't get very far. I was able to get Emirates checkin agents to pull up numbers for London embassy. But since it was a Saturday, everything was closed.

4. Since I was in transit, the bags were not made available to me. Even with a 24 hour stay, the bags stayed with the airline. I checked with the AC agent the next day if ALL of my bags were on the flight back to Edmonton and she said yes. Not sure why she said that.....

5. Correct. She was very helpful and considerate.

6. My wife has a Canadian PR so when I got in touch with the Turkish consulate in Toronto, they informed me that rules have changed to allow PR card holders of OECD countries to get visa on arrival. BUT apparently this info was not in AC and BA's system (ie. AC's system still indicated she needed a visa but that was missed).

I know many people are going to blame the Turkish embassy and yes they do share some blame but it is the job of AC reps to check for these things and refuse boarding. I am also taking this up with Turkish embassy so they are not off the hook.

7. BA's rep was helpful and actually spoke to me nicely and explained the situation. Turkish Airlines and Emirates reps also went out their way to think of options I can try. AC rep first refused to do much and then got into a shouting argument with the customer after me. I should mention the AC counter wasn't busy and she was looking at me as I ran back and forth from one counter to another to try and get some help.

In my dealings with the various airlines' reps, they all indicated that AC was at fault to let us fly from YEG and they should try and help me in some way now (which to AC was sending us back).

8. AC is great as long as there no issues of any kind. But as soon as you have to rely on their personnel, that's where it goes downhill. Not all are bad but enough are that they continually lose reputation (losing money is more the responsibility of higher brass).

Excellent advice FFA and I will be sure to implement this in my dealings with customer relations. I expect a negotiation so lets see what happens.

[LO 044]

It is amazing that the last 5 people responding including myself point to BA as the problem of not letting you on the flight (which makes complete sense) yet you still seem intent on blaming AC for doing everything wrong and everyone else not doing enough wrong for you to be upset with them. (Turkish Consulate, British Airways, etc.).

Hopefully your one (i assume) bad experience doesn't paint all the AC employees in a bad way. I assume you would not have the same service agents the next time you fly. You always hear about bad news but no one ever starts a topic here on how the flight and customer service was good.

[faraz]

LO, as mentioned before, AC has already admitted to their mistake so if some people on an internet forum say otherwise, it doesn't make much difference to me.

I sincerely appreciate those who proposed solutions on how to deal with customer relations which is what I was looking for to begin with.

[FlyFlyAway]

Originally Posted by faraz

4. Since I was in transit, the bags were not made available to me. Even with a 24 hour stay, the bags stayed with the airline. I checked with the AC agent the next day if ALL of my bags were on the flight back to Edmonton and she said yes. Not sure why she said that.....

I'm not certain as I've never been denied boarding on an international connection, but once you clear immigration, you should have had special request access to your bags. Neither BA (who has responsibility for your bags once they get on the conveyor belt @ LHR) nor AC knows where you're headed once denied boarding. Of course, you were a long ways from clearing immigration when working the transfer desk. But once you decided to stay the night, BA should have assisted upon request. But glad you were pleased with their response. And yes, your bags should have made the AC flight if still at LHR, especially when you asked them to check. Interlined baggage is worthless if AC can't find bags assigned to your PNR that BA is storing....

Even if you can't clear UK immigration, there should be provision for you to obtain your checked luggage while in transit. Presumably not very common - Tom Hanks stranded in Paris perhaps?

In my dealings with the various airlines' reps, they all indicated that AC was at fault to let us fly from YEG and they should try and help me in some way now (which to AC was sending us back).

Oh absolutely - you could have settled the visa issue from your comfy sofa at home, and been on your way (hopefully) the next day. Who knows - couple of phone calls that night from the airport, and you might have even made your original flight? I'm just pointing out that BA, if so disposed and aware, could have confirmed their visa requirement information prior to denying boarding. As you learned, difficult to do on a Saturday, but the airlines have way more tools at their disposal than a stranded passenger at an airport transfer desk.

You did not mention supervisors or senior staff while @ LHR - those are the only folks I trust to deal with an unfortunate situation like yours. I don't want to waste front-line staff's time dealing with an issue they are ill-trained for and not compensated to deal with. Front-line staff are asked to solve simple problems efficiently (i.e. fast!). Your challenge was never simple, and probably could not be solved quickly. Better to let them yell quickly and efficiently at other passengers.

8. AC is great as long as there no issues of any kind. But as soon as you have to rely on their personnel, that's where it goes downhill. Not all are bad but enough are that they continually lose reputation (losing money is more the responsibility of higher brass).

I've found that true of all airlines. My props are saved for JetBlue, usually WestJet, and, in rare cases, Alaska. Everybody else I deal with (and those three as well, to a lesser extent perhaps) struggle through irregular operations, each with their own set of individual poor choices and worse attitudes. From what I've heard and read and slightly experienced, Air Canada might be a tad worse, but far far from horrible. I noticed a positive mention of KLM above - I really struggle with that description, but each of us has our own opinion.... And the new Middle Eastern airlines have lots of challenges dealing with exceptions too, so I'm reading. Best service for me seems to come from major hub/HQ locations. LHR is an AC hub, but so far away...? CDG was my unfortunate run-in w/ AC staff.

I expect a negotiation so lets see what happens.

Let us know how the negotiation goes. My experience is that both parties need some leverage in order to enter negotiation. Hopefully your book of business is sufficient for your voice to matter.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by faraz

LO, as mentioned before, AC has already admitted to their mistake so if some people on an internet forum say otherwise, it doesn't make much difference to me.

I sincerely appreciate those who proposed solutions on how to deal with customer relations which is what I was looking for to begin with.

Any advice on the matter?

We advised. You didn't listen. Okay, then. Go blame Air Canada for starting the Crimean War, for all I care.

[Transplanted_Edm]

Originally Posted by faraz

Thanks for the comments everyone.
There are a few aviation rules which I had plenty of time to discover while I was stranded at LHR:

2. In the aviation world, it is the responsibility of the airline that does the initial boarding to check if the traveller's documents are upto date to reach their final destination. If not, the airline needs to point that out and not let the traveler fly. If that is not done, the airline has not done their job and are responsible.

But if I read this thread correctly, it was an error on BA's part (wrong info in their computer) that said your wife needed a visa to board the leg of the flight from Heathrow to Istanbul.

So how is it possible for AC to be aware that BA has an error in their computer system? I think as far as AC was concerned when you first boarded at Edmonton, you met all the visa requirements or could buy a visa upon arrival in Istanbul if needed. So they let you board, not knowing that another airline would incorrectly deny you boarding later.

[Gord Lacey]

I think that's the point he's trying to make, Transplanted_Edm - the AC computer showed that his wife needed a visa, but this wasn't brought to their attention at YEG, they were allowed to board the plane, and then the BA computer showed the same incorrect information but they were denied boarding. They SHOULD have been stopped at YEG, but weren't, so it's AC's fault.

At least that's my understanding.

[faraz]

Correct Gord Lacey. Both had the same incorrect information. BA caught it, AC didn't.

[kcantor]

Originally Posted by faraz

Correct Gord Lacey. Both had the same incorrect information. BA caught it, AC didn't.

although to be fair, if i am following the facts correctly, even if air canada did have the correct information in their computer, then what would have taken place is still exactly the same as what did take place - they would have allowed you board and british airways would not have allowed you to board based on the incorrect information in their computer...

and if british airways had the correct information in their computer, they would have allowed you to board at heathrow irrespective of air canada's not having "responded correctly to incorrect information"...

[JustYeggin]

You are able to get a visa stamp at the port of entry in Turkey. You are not required to have a visa stamped on your passport beforehand. It is BA's fault not AC's.

From : http://www.mfa.gov.tr/visa-informati...eigners.en.mfa

Canada: Ordinary and official passport holders are required to have visa to enter Turkey. Ordinary passport holders can obtain three-month multiple entry visas at the Turkish border gates.

[faraz]

kcantor, I believe all airlines use the same system for visa requirements so there shouldn't be a difference between AC and BA's systems. I wish BA would have missed this too just like AC and there would have been no problems

Justyeggin, my wife has Canadian PR for which the rules changed 3 months ago to allow visa on arrival.

[FlyFlyAway]

Originally Posted by kcantor

...
then what would have taken place is still exactly the same as what did take place - they would have allowed you board and british airways would not have allowed you to board based on the incorrect information in their computer...

Not quite exact...where would you want to sort out a visa issue, at home in Edmonton, in the Edmonton airport (knowing you could go home if it didn't work out), or the transfer desk at Heathrow.

More to the point, where do you want your pregnant wife and infant to be while you're sorting things out?

[faraz]

Plus if AC catches it in Edmonton, we don't lose our tickets.

[kcantor]

Originally Posted by FlyFlyAway

Not quite exact...where would you want to sort out a visa issue, at home in Edmonton, in the Edmonton airport (knowing you could go home if it didn't work out), or the transfer desk at Heathrow.

More to the point, where do you want your pregnant wife and infant to be while you're sorting things out?

to be honest with you, there are probably three options among that line of choices.

clearly, the first preference would be to sort it out in edmonton but if i had to make a choice from the other two as to whether i would want to sort it out and potentially be stranded if i couldn't, i think i would pick heathrow over atarturk for my pregnant wife and infant.

on the other hand, if that is the criteria and if there was an option to secure a visa prior to even leaving for edmonton's airport vs trying to secure a visa having arrived in atarturk, i know which of those i would choose (or which of those my wife would insist i choose on our behalf ).

it's the old "what can go wrong at some point in time certainly will go wrong" so the more things you can eliminate and the more things you can control the fewer things you will need to end up sorting out regardless of where you are.

[faraz]

Spoke with the consul general at the Turkish consulate today and he was pretty upset the airlines' don't have the latest rule changes in their system since it's been 3 months.

Also spoke with an aviation consultant who works for American Airlines in JFK (high school friend) and he believes AC is responsible.

[Brentk]

Faraz, reading through this article you take no precentage of the responsiblity for this issue. HOw is this only the airlines fault?

[faraz]

Everyone is required to do their due diligence -- myself, AC, and BA.

ME
Called Turkish embassy to check visa requirements. Made sure we had all the documents required before travel. There is no reason or way for me to know/think that the airline's systems don't have the same info as the embassy.

AC
Required to check if the passenger documents match what their system requires. This happens when the checkin agents put in their final destination and the passport, the system shows what the requirements are. AC agent misses this.

BA
Same as AC but they did not miss the check.

[rime ice]

1) keep all reciepts and costs incurred because of this oversight.

2) It may take several weeks to get answer as these incidents are viewed and evaluated individually.

3) You may or may not get compensated to the level you are looking for. Sometimes its credit for future travel and other times some costs may be covered.

On a side note be careful when going from AC Ticket stock 014 to OAL stock. If you miss your cnx AC is not responsible for travel beyond LHR. Best to travel on Star Alliance all the way through. AC cannot access your record and change cnx flight, this surprises many people when LHR is running late and in danger of misconnecting to your flight ex LHR.

[faraz]

Thank you rime ice.
For your last paragraph, you are saying to stick with full ticket Star Alliance or One World? So in case of missed flights, something can be done since they belong to the same alliance?

[rime ice]

Yes, I have seen instances where pax are paying very low fare not knowing the risks and their flight gets delayed or xxld. They seem to think AC can rebook their whole itinerary, when in fact they can only adjust the AC portion in their system. You have to arrange all the mis cnx flights yourself. And also are subject to the other airlines change fees etc.

Best to book with an alliance all the way through your itinerary. My choice is *Alliance! You save money the other way, but take a chance if there is irrops.

[Gord Lacey]

I book everything through my TD Travel Visa because I know I have tons of coverage for travel if something goes wrong. I know I've said this before, but look at your credit card to see if there's something that you'd be covered for.

[faraz]

Originally Posted by Gord Lacey

I book everything through my TD Travel Visa because I know I have tons of coverage for travel if something goes wrong. I know I've said this before, but look at your credit card to see if there's something that you'd be covered for.

Thanks Gord Lacey. I use to have a travel card with all the coverages but just discontinued it!

I will check with the existing card to see what they might cover.

[Gord Lacey]

Check the bank website to see if they have the cardholder agreement as a PDF. I know TD has all theirs online, so I assume the other banks do as well.

My wife had a bad experience traveling to Germany a few years ago, and she didn't have any coverage with the credit card (I had it through mine, but not hers). Now we make sure to use our travel Visa for everything... and haven't had any problems (of course).

[edmonton2001]

Most if not all major airlines use a program called Timatic to check visa requirements.

From reading this thread, I do feel very bad for the experience this passenger had. From the results in timatic below, there should have been no reason to refuse boarding by AC or BA but the nationality of the person that was refused, I don’t think, was not mentioned yet so that may change the results of the search. From what was read, since a visa had to be issued even to enter the UK, they probably were not Canadian or from a western country.

If you want to figure out who was actually wrong, fill everything in to that and try to decipher what it says. Its either going to be AC for boarding someone they shouldn’t have at YEG heading for Turkey or BA for not reading this information right as it can be confusing. Some agents will just read the first line where it says "Visa Required" and start looking for a paper visa within the passport or not fill out the residency part of the form of which can make a difference. If you want my opinion, post or PM me the nationality of the person who was denied.

http://www.staralliance.com/en/servi...sa-and-health/
http://www.iata.org/ps/publications/Pages/timatic.aspx
http://www.timaticweb.com/


/ 25JUN12 / 0656 UTC



National Canada (CA) /Embarkation Canada (CA)Transit United Kingdom (GB) /Destination Turkey (TR)ALSO CHECK DESTINATION INFORMATION BELOW


United Kingdom (GB)


VISA NOT REQUIRED.Additional Information:
- There is no passport control on traffic between "Great Britain & Northern Ireland" and "Ireland (Rep. of)". For details, click here

United Kingdom (GB)
No vaccinations are required to enter the United Kingdom from
any country.


Turkey (TR)


Passport required.- Passport and/or passport replacing documents must be valid for the period of intended stay.Visa required, except for Those of Turkish origin holdingforeign passport and a National ID Card issued by Turkey
("Nufus Card").Visa Issuance:Visa required, except for Holders of normal passports canobtain a multiple entry visa on arrival, for a max. stay of 3
months: Minors:- Up to/incl. 18 years of age may be included in parent's passport. Additional Information:
- If it appears from the documents of a non-Turkish passenger that their original nationality was Turkish,
For details, click here - Visitors who require a visa, must also hold proof of hotel reservation and documents for their next destination .
- Visitors exceeding the period for which they are allowed to stay For details, click hereWarning:- Visitors who require a visa and do not hold return/onward ticket could be refused entry .


Turkey (TR)
No vaccinations are required to enter Turkey from any country.
Recommended:- Malaria prophylaxis. Limited malaria risk - exclusively in the benign (P. vivax) form - exists from May to October mainly in the south-east of the country. There is no malaria risk in the main tourist areas in the west and south-west of the country. Recommended prevention in risk areas: II.

CHECK TINEWS/N1 - EUROPEAN UNION: NAMED CHILDREN INPARENTS' PASSPORT OR TRAVEL DOCUMENTTimaticweb Version 1.3
25 June 2012

[faraz]

Edmonton2001, I used the system and it says visa required to enter Turkey for my wife.