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Air/Rail Links Edmonton continues to improve its ranking as a major transportation hub for northern Canada and beyond. New air routes, more cargo, Port Alberta, a major rail operations centre and the related infrastructure are all part of this increasingly critical component of the region’s economic growth. Contribute your ideas and comments here.


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Old 04-11-2014, 09:57 AM   #2101
The Man From YEG
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That may be but from what I understand from what I have been advised were the yields those engineers and manufacturers weren't filling it up or the ones from here were still flying via YYZ as AC SuperElites or Elites. Perhaps now that AC has 'enhanced' the domestic Altitude programme they will recognize the error of their ways.
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Old 04-11-2014, 10:10 AM   #2102
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I don't know who is advising you, but the route numbers were not bad. UAL restructuring is what took a toll on that route.
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Old 04-11-2014, 10:24 AM   #2103
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True. United just cut 63 aircraft, hence their sudden balance sheet turnaround. Probably a necessary rationalisation after the Continental merger.

I would guess it's actually close to the top of their list for reinstatement, but not if Delta or AA beat them to it of course.

New York is definitely a priority, and United's Newark gateway is a very competitive option TransAtlantic.
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Old 04-11-2014, 01:17 PM   #2104
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^^ Would the route numbers that were not bad be referring to passenger headcount or to yields?
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Old 04-11-2014, 02:33 PM   #2105
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New York was not a terrible performer for YEG. I watched the loads quite closely and did not see anything very far below 70%, infact most were more in the 80% range.

New York is not a very strong market from Alberta as a whole, YYC has only one year round flight by AC using a Embraer 190 operated once daily and is joined by a summer only westjet flight that's uses a 737-600/700 mix.

Seasonal edmonton-New York is feasible, but only as a seasonal link.
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Old 05-11-2014, 12:06 PM   #2106
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I'm guessing our next route will be Nanaimo, Prince George, Penticton or Fort St. John on Encore.
I'll add Honolulu to my list. When WestJet gets their 767s, HNL is a possibility.
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Old 05-11-2014, 12:24 PM   #2107
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ORD on AA. UAL just reduced to 1x daily in Jan-March.
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Old 05-11-2014, 06:49 PM   #2108
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^Seconded.
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Old 06-11-2014, 03:16 PM   #2109
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Our inside man tuffyy on SSP is hearing rumblings of BA coming to YEG as well........

Edit, sounds likes a shared route with YYC and uses a 787.

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Old 06-11-2014, 04:53 PM   #2110
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Oh my! That is very interesting.Perhaps they're trying to squeez out a certain Airline that has treated this city like second class or are they just countering KML?
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Old 06-11-2014, 05:19 PM   #2111
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Either way, we've got to have YEG-LHR/LGW. There has to be more onward connections from those two than from Amsterdam.
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Old 06-11-2014, 05:27 PM   #2112
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I wonder if this is a endeavour of EIA or just BA's natural intent. As well, can our market absorb another carrier for Europe?
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Old 06-11-2014, 08:05 PM   #2113
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Either way, we've got to have YEG-LHR/LGW. There has to be more onward connections from those two than from Amsterdam.
In 2010 LHR had 180 destinations (heathrow website), AMS had 274 (Wikipedia)

Last edited by Brentk; 06-11-2014 at 09:15 PM..
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Old 06-11-2014, 09:15 PM   #2114
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Amsterdam admittedly doesn't have the connections we need to South Asia. KLM flies to Delhi only.
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Old 07-11-2014, 01:14 AM   #2115
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You could probably just use Pearson in that case. Where in South Asia did you have in mind? Pakistan?
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Old 07-11-2014, 01:32 AM   #2116
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Oh my! That is very interesting.Perhaps they're trying to squeez out a certain Airline that has treated this city like second class or are they just countering KML?
Four things I can think of:

1 - Even if we land BA daily there would still be hundreds of YEG-Europe customers transferring at other North American airports. i.e., excess unserved demand.

2 - AC running away and crying "unprofitability" to mommy Rovinescue left even more unserved, but actually so did United cutting Newark. United's hub at Newark I think is the best endowed Transatlantic gateway on this side of the pond and a lot of their customers were using it thus.

3 - London is the number one Transatlantic origin and destination for Edmonton.

4 - AC to London was kindof a dead-end anyways, since Star Alliance partner BMI disappeared. BA at London would also have numerous transfer routes to offer, and many of those customers would be business class.


Really hope we get it, and it's year-round.
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Old 07-11-2014, 02:41 AM   #2117
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You could probably just use Pearson in that case. Where in South Asia did you have in mind? Pakistan?
From Heathrow, one can connect to Delhi, Mumbai, Hyderabad, Chennai, Bengaluru, Colombo, Dhaka, Karachi, Lahore and Islamabad.

From Amsterdam: Delhi and Mumbai.

From Toronto: Karachi, Lahore and Islamabad.

London is still an important airport to be connected to. Having British Airways on the route would make those connections easier than on Air Canada.
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Old 07-11-2014, 03:23 AM   #2118
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^ Definitely. Also even where they fly to the same transfer destinations, it gives us price competition.
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Old 07-11-2014, 09:08 AM   #2119
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by howie View Post
Either way, we've got to have YEG-LHR/LGW. There has to be more onward connections from those two than from Amsterdam.
In 2010 LHR had 180 destinations (heathrow website), AMS had 274 (Wikipedia)
Thanks, Brentk. If you include Gatwick, that adds a further 200 destinations.
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Old 07-11-2014, 09:16 AM   #2120
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Transferring from Air Transat at Gatwick wouldn't be as seamless as using KLM all the way through to your final destination, bottom line is AMS > LHR (having both is the best of both worlds).

Last edited by Hilman; 07-11-2014 at 09:18 AM..
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Old 09-11-2014, 01:54 PM   #2121
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YYC-Beijing?

http://www.shanghaidaily.com/article...aspx?id=251576
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Old 09-11-2014, 02:00 PM   #2122
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^been talked about ever since the Nexen purchase, and the airport expansion, I thought it might come soon too, given Harpers trip over there.
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Old 09-11-2014, 02:42 PM   #2123
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I've been on 13 trans-pacific flights the past few years, and have never needed to use YYC-NRT. This will be no different.
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Old 09-11-2014, 04:42 PM   #2124
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^ Likewise.
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Old 09-11-2014, 05:03 PM   #2125
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Would this be the much talked about shared flight between yeg and yyc?
If not why would I go to YYC if YVR or SEA would be a better option?
Would a YYC flight have enough load?
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Old 09-11-2014, 06:06 PM   #2126
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Would this be the much talked about shared flight between yeg and yyc?
If not why would I go to YYC if YVR or SEA would be a better option?
Would a YYC flight have enough load?
I hope so, but am guessing just YYC. I took NRT-YYC, convenient, but prefer vancouver's intl departures.
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Old 10-11-2014, 11:46 AM   #2127
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Effective June 15, WestJet increases Abbotsford service to 3 daily from 2 daily. Extra service is on Encore. Timed perfectly for connections.

Depart Abbotsford at 6:20 a.m.
Arrive Edmonton at 9:02 a.m.
Depart Edmonton at 10:00 p.m.
Arrive Abbotsford at 10:56 p.m.

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Old 15-11-2014, 09:14 PM   #2128
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Would be great to see UA return with EWR this summer as well as BA to LHR as rumored.

Considering that much of the EWR market would be onward connections though, I think we would be close to an overcapacity situation if both flights come to fruition.
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Old 15-11-2014, 10:25 PM   #2129
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Do we actually have concrete facts and metrics that many depart to NY for connections. From casual dialogue with many strangers, they head to NY to visit or want to visit the city. It's safe to say, it is one of the top 5 world destination for non connections. That said, it is not entirely imppossible for people to use them as connectors.

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Old 16-11-2014, 12:01 AM   #2130
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Good point, the thing with London and New York is that the cities themselves are (much) bigger origin/destinations than Amsterdam or Keflavik. But the transfers are definitely significant.

United at Newark, not including Central/East Asia or US/Canada (from Wikipedia):



Source
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Old 16-11-2014, 06:54 PM   #2131
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Sooo...what's this about a rumored BA route, Greatest X?

thegx on SSP:
Quote:
Very interesting, a reply from BA in 2013:

"We constantly review our network to make the best use of our fleet. We don't however have plans to add Edmonton at the moment."

And now this:

"Keep an eye on our website and the truth shall be revealed soon."

and

"You'll find out soon enough"

They didn't deny it like they did in the past...
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Old 16-11-2014, 07:13 PM   #2132
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According to tuffy on SSP, who told us about Reykjavik, Dallas and Amsterdam before they were announced, BA will be adding Edmonton to its current LHR-YYC schedule.

Then someone on Twitter asked BA if they were adding YEG, and their replies which are quoted above seem to indicate something might happen.

Lastly, according to tuffy...

"Well from all I've heard it does sound like you'll have a 787 flight sooner than later."
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Old 16-11-2014, 10:52 PM   #2133
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So I would guess BA picking up the London to Edmonton route would be the end of AC flying that route.
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Old 16-11-2014, 10:53 PM   #2134
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Looks promising, but I'll count my chickens after they hatch.

BA would be a much better flight for us to LHR. AC can't really do many transfers from LHR that they couldn't more profitably from YYZ. BA can add in a lot of transfer possibilities from all over Eurasia/Africa.

The trick with BA is they've bet so heavily on premium seats with their aircraft configuration, and I'm not sure if it will help them or hurt them to alternatingly dog-leg through the other Alberta city.

More than ever we need people to Fly Edmonton First. We know we can in theory harness tremendous leakage through other Canadian airports, but now that we are getting options like KLM and Icelandair, we have to put our money where our airport is.

Luckily, unlike our previously sole trans-atlantic provider, KLM, Icelandair, and hopefully BA have no incentive whatsoever to route us through other Canadian airports.
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Old 21-11-2014, 11:45 AM   #2135
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There has been discussion on this board about how airlines make route decisions on yield and not just on the number of people in the seats. I have a question for anyone who has detailed knowledge of the airline industry. How do airlines allocate revenue internally for accounting purposes for the millions of connecting passengers? Let me give an example:

I entered YEG to AMS in June on KLM website and the cost of return flight was $1049.

I entered YEG to Rome (FCO) on KLM connecting through AMS on the exact same dates and the cost was $997.

Forgetting about the fees and taxes included in the cost, how does KLM allocate the revenue internally to determine the profitably of each flight? On the first example, obviously all of the $1049 gets allocated to the YEG-AMS flight. In the second example do they allocate $997 to YEG_AMS and zero to AMS-FCO in which case YEG-AMS would be profitable and AMS-FCO would lose money or do they allocate $500 to YEG-AMS and $497 to AMS-FCO in which case YEG-AMS would lose money and AMS-FCO would be profitable.

I ask the question because there are many connecting passengers on almost every flight of every airline. Therefore these internal assumptions determine whether or not flights are profitable. As an example, there has been discussion on this board about why United cut the YEG-EWR flight when the number of passengers on each flight was at a reasonable level. How United allocated the revenue from connecting passengers determines to a large extent whether or not the flight was profitable. An airline could make a certain flight APPEAR profitable if it wanted to or unprofitable simply by the revenue assumptions.

The second question is how does the above scenario make sense for the cost to be less to fly from YEG-FCO than to stay in AMS? They are actually paying me $52 to go to Rome rather than staying in Amsterdam.

I appreciate any information anyone can provide on this issue.

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Old 21-11-2014, 12:25 PM   #2136
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I entered YEG to AMS in June on KLM website and the cost of return flight was $1049.

I entered YEG to Rome (FCO) on KLM connecting through AMS on the exact same dates and the cost was $997.
That's bizarre. I'd like to know the answers to those questions as well.
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Old 21-11-2014, 12:38 PM   #2137
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Wow. Great questions. To begin with I don't have a detailed knowledge of the airline industry, I just have the basics of economics, industrial organisation, and corporate strategy, and thus I can't really do more than speculate on your first question. Perhaps you'll get better answers from someone else, (and perhaps you won't. )

a.
To begin with, all prices are charged at the level the competitive market will bear. If Air Canada charges $1050 to Amsterdam and $998 to Rome (both via Toronto), KLM has no choice but to acknowledge that, regardless their own cost structure. Same reason gas station prices aren't correlated with oil prices.

b.
To second, airline seats are perishable products, just like heads of lettuce. It's better to sell a seat for reeeeal cheap than it is to not sell it for anything. Some flights make more money than others, some lose money, but once the aircraft are committed to their routes, they're committed.

c.
Thus from points a and b, if KLM predicts unsold capacity on both YEG-AMS & AMS-FCO, it only makes sense to match or beat AC on FCO, and why not overcharge on AMS, if $1050 is the going rate?

If on the other hand they were predicting AMS-FCO being sold-out, they wouldn't need to bother matching.


Finally about the internal allocation stuff, I have no idea, but how I would make choices to pioneer and keep or discontinue routes would be:
  1. estimate the number of aircraft my corporate structure could justify (based on things like hub airport capacity, winable passenger totals, and access to capital, etc)
  2. pit routes against each other for estimated net profitability (how many O&D vs transfer plus seat class breakdown plus cargo minus costs of execution)
  3. basically commit to a route for a year and wait to see how it pans out.

In United's case on Newark, especially using the aircraft they had allocated to the route, I suspect it was profitable or close enough to keep building the route, but corporately they needed to revisit point [1] above, and cut 10% of their aircraft because they were gas guzzling antiques. Then when they revisited point [2] above, Edmonton-Newark fell below, for example, Austin-Newark.
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Old 21-11-2014, 12:48 PM   #2138
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^Called yield optimization.

And typically, when you are flying direct to a hub (and it is your final destination), you pay more for convenience.

It's not any different than pricing YEG-IAH vs YEG-IAH-TPA as an example.

YEG-IAH will cost twice as much as YEG-TPA through IAH.
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Old 21-11-2014, 02:38 PM   #2139
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  1. pit routes against each other for estimated net profitability (how many O&D vs transfer plus seat class breakdown plus cargo minus costs of execution)
Thanks for the excellent response JayBee. I think your analysis is probably close to the truth. To use another example, people on this board have often asked why Air Canada has several direct flights from YYC to U.S. and none from YEG. My question is how does Air Canada determine the profitability of it's YYC-LAX route which would contain multiple connecting passengers from YEG? I suspect there are sufficient O & D passengers on most YEG-YYC flights to make it profitable. Therefore, do they internally allocate most of the cost paid by the YEG passenger to the YYC-LAX portion of the flight? When you add in the YYC-LAX O& D passengers, this would make the YYC-LAX flight APPEAR to be very profitable. This would give them no reason to consider adding a YEG-LAX flight. On the other hand, if you change the allocation of the revenue from the YEG-YYC-LAX passengers to allocate more to the YEG-YYC portion of the flight, the YEG-YYC is more profitable and the YYC-LAX is less profitable.

The reason I'm raising these questions is that my hunch is that airlines make these allocations to justify the previous decisions they have already made. In other words, allocate revenue to the international flights from the hubs to make them appear profitable at he expense of non hub airports like YEG. This makes it much more difficult for non-hub airports to get and keep flights because the airlines internal accounting makes them look less profitable.

That's why I choose direct flights from Edmonton and refuse to connect through places like YYC. If we don't use our flights and show the airlines they can make money, no one else will.

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Old 21-11-2014, 02:42 PM   #2140
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I had a discussion with a former WJ executive not so long ago. Another factor to keep in mind, is it isn't always optimal to have full planes, some empty seats is a good thing. The reason is, Airlines make a killing from last minute business customers who are price takers, they will pay double or more for a last minute flight. If you oversell all the seats before that last week, you lose that high yielding revenue, so full planes, means missed revenue / profits, prices too low.
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Old 21-11-2014, 03:29 PM   #2141
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Some airlines purposely do not sell a few seats until the date of flight for walk ups.
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Old 21-11-2014, 07:51 PM   #2142
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That's why I choose direct flights from Edmonton and refuse to connect through places like YYC. If we don't use our flights and show the airlines they can make money, no one else will.
Absolutely agree.
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Old 22-11-2014, 02:51 PM   #2143
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Minor update, WestJet is now codesharing on AA's DFW and LAX flights.
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Old 22-11-2014, 03:27 PM   #2144
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I think it would be great to re-introduce a flight to NYC, wherever AA flies, given the codeshare.
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Old Yesterday, 08:12 PM   #2145
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I heard a rumour about Qatar airways starting to Calgary, a bit of googling revealed this

http://careers.qatarairways.com/qata...acancyID=78606

Does this mean anything?
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Old Yesterday, 08:16 PM   #2146
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This is a recruitment that is happening across Canada, and does not mean they will be flying to Calgary. I don't think they have the rights at the moment.
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Old Yesterday, 08:17 PM   #2147
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^
Quote:
Willingness to relocate to Doha, Qatar
Not necessarily. Possibly because they want to poach Westjet and AC crews based there.
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Old Yesterday, 10:17 PM   #2148
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^
Quote:
Willingness to relocate to Doha, Qatar
Not necessarily. Possibly because they want to poach Westjet and AC crews based there.
Lol...Doha, Qatar...yeah sure...and that also read "Qatar Airways will be holding a Cabin Crew Open Day in Calgary in August 2014". If you search here you will see there are NO jobs in Calgary available or for Canada. They must be fully staffed lol

http://careers.qatarairways.com/qata...spx?lang=en-US

and then there is this: note the absence of flights planned for anywhere in 2015

http://www.anna.aero/2014/08/06/qata...-destinations/
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