A LRT wake up for the SPR buisness district

[edmonton daily photo]

http://sf.streetsblog.org/2012/08/02...-rely-on-muni/

When the SF Municipal Transportation Agency proposed widening sidewalks at two stops on Carl Street in Cole Valley to improve conditions for nearly 6,000 daily passenger boardings on Muni’s N-Judah line, some vociferous merchants and residents complained about the loss of nine car parking spaces it would require. But with ongoing project construction detouring the N-Judah for several weekends this year, some merchants may be discovering the hard way what really brings business to the neighborhood: Muni.

Some business owners estimate their business has dropped 30 percent as a result of street closures on Carl for work on the rail replacement project, according to Juliet Pries, the owner of Ice Cream Bar on Cole Street. (Pries, who opened her shop after the project was planned, was not an opponent.) During the closures, the two N-Judah stops on Carl at*Cole and Stanyan Streets are moved to Frederick Street, which runs one block to the north, just off the neighborhood’s commercial strip. Trains are also replaced with shuttle buses, which are slower and carry fewer people, and many riders who are aware of the construction may avoid using the line. On an average day, the stop at Carl and Cole serves over 4,300 boardings alone, according to Transit Effectiveness Project data collected in 2007.



The bricked area used to be car parking

[Municipal Man of Mystery]

Property values and business tend to increase near LRT stations, but decrease near the LRT lines where there is no station nearby. It would be interesting to see if there have been any studies done with Edmonton in particular (ie: see the affect the south LRT extension has had on Southgate and Century Park).

[sundance]

This unfortunately is a reality in many cities that during construction, business falls off. It was the case of businesses on Jasper Avenue when they were building the LRT, it was the case in Phoenix in fact a family business of a friend folded because of the roads being closed.

It is short term pain for long term gain though. But my guess is they have nothing to worry about for 10 years judging by the speed the Millwoods Line is being built

[edmonton daily photo]

Sun dance you are missing the point.

They have lrt.. They are making a fuss about loosing 9 parking spots..

Meanwhile...

Lrt service, which they already had, had to be stopped and businesses are seeing up to a 30% drop in sales because they lost lrt traffic

Spr brz partners claim the sky will fall if lrt goes down spr and no one will shop and everything will fail...

The wake up call to spr is that lrt will be a bigger boost to the area than the few on street parking spots they will loose

A section

[edmonton daily photo]

Originally Posted by Municipal Man of Mystery

Property values and business tend to increase near LRT stations, but decrease near the LRT lines where there is no station nearby. It would be interesting to see if there have been any studies done with Edmonton in particular (ie: see the affect the south LRT extension has had on Southgate and Century Park).

The magic distance is 400m or a 5 min walk. With a stop at both ends of spr everything from 149 to 160 st falls into the golden zone

Again this is the wake up call to spr

[sundance]

No I'm not missing the point, I know some businesses on Stony Plain Road will fail during or shortly after LRT construction. However after it is done there are far more opportunities to attract more business from elsewhere.

They might lose some car traffic in the end but the pedestrian traffic should more than compensate.

[The_Cat]

I think that SPR businesses should also have problems with the current construction going on, if there will be problems with the LRT.

[jstock]

Maybe the businesses worried about loss of customers should run a better business. A devoted customer will continue to shop at a location regardless of construction issues.

[edmonton daily photo]

It so sad that lrt to SPR will take so long

[Chmilz]

You quoted the wrong line of the article...

“A lot of people get off that train and walk right past my business,” said Pries. “It’s definitely one of the reasons for choosing this location.”

That's the line you should have quoted to support the message you're trying to get across.

[edmonton daily photo]

I like this one...

Some business owners estimate their business has dropped 30 percent as a result of street closures on Carl for work on the rail replacement project,

I also wanted to highlight that some business owners were frustrated over the loss of 9 parking spots while they neglect the needs of nearly 6000 people that board the LRT right outside their business.

[edmonton daily photo]

Originally Posted by Chmilz

You quoted the wrong line of the article...

That's the line you should have quoted to support the message you're trying to get across.

hehe I didn't have to.. you just did.. and we got thread participation!

GO TEAM

[armin]

Huge waste of money & resources.

The west end is big and running the LRT down STP is the dumbest, most counterproductive decision ever. For people who live in the deep west, you think they want to take an LRT that stops every few blocks?

And for businesses, i fail to see how removing their streetfront parking benefits them if the stops for the trains are so far apart that people have to walk several blocks to get to a stop.

really, the plan doesn't properly benefit anyone, and it tries too hard to be what it can't.

Pick speed over range.

STP can be handled by bus quite easily.

[The_Cat]

It's unfortunate to see that neighbourhoods like SPR don't cooperate on city initiatives like LRT. This neighbourhood has fought the city ever since annexation in the sixties.

[highlander]

400m is the sweet spot for getting from home to transit, the sweet spot on the work end is a little less, and the impact of lrt on small businesses more than a block or so from the stations will be small, but generally negative. In the very long term, LRT may spur density that helps the business districts, but that uncertain and a long way off.

You'll notice in the article that it's the transit riders who go there to catch the streetcar (and it could just as easily be bus) who end up patronizing the businesses. There's no mention of riders who get off the streetcar, walk 300m down the street, patronize a business and then walk back to continue on their way home, and that's because it rarely happens.

The couple blocks around the stations will benefit, though.

[RiverWalker]

Originally Posted by highlander

400m is the sweet spot for getting from home to transit, the sweet spot on the work end is a little less, and the impact of lrt on small businesses more than a block or so from the stations will be small, but generally negative. In the very long term, LRT may spur density that helps the business districts, but that uncertain and a long way off.

You'll notice in the article that it's the transit riders who go there to catch the streetcar (and it could just as easily be bus) who end up patronizing the businesses. There's no mention of riders who get off the streetcar, walk 300m down the street, patronize a business and then walk back to continue on their way home, and that's because it rarely happens.

The couple blocks around the stations will benefit, though.

If LRT ran to Whyte and 104th...(one stop) I am willing to bet that business in every direction would benefit big time. Forgetting the festivals that run a few weeks there in total every year - Whyte Ave is happening place. This could also happen on Stony Plain Road between 142 and 159. If the LRT stops are 143 and again at 156...this area could experience a renaissance - particularly if a farmers market opened up right on the sidewalks etc. on weekends. The possibilities are endless. This would drive property values of homes in the area up. If the local community does not want this - I say screw them. Lets save the cost of building transit stations on this part of the route and by-pass them. Either through them non-stop...or over to 107 Avenue. Frankly I don't have the time of day for folks that are naysayers and can see further than the end of their nose. What pisses me off as I live elsewhere and am prepared to support MY tax dollars to help create a great main street for Stony Plain Road - and they don't want it. No problem...lets spend more developing the Fort Road area...people there appreciate what is happening in their area...and Beverly and 118th Avenue east was not always part of Edmonton lest we forget. I am pretty sure an LRT line down 118th from/connecting to Coliseum to Victoria Trail would help revitalize the businesses and homes in the area. At least there would be ridership.

[edmonton daily photo]

Originally Posted by highlander

400m is the sweet spot for getting from home to transit, the sweet spot on the work end is a little less, and the impact of lrt on small businesses more than a block or so from the stations will be small, but generally negative. In the very long term, LRT may spur density that helps the business districts, but that uncertain and a long way off.

You'll notice in the article that it's the transit riders who go there to catch the streetcar (and it could just as easily be bus) who end up patronizing the businesses. There's no mention of riders who get off the streetcar, walk 300m down the street, patronize a business and then walk back to continue on their way home, and that's because it rarely happens.

The couple blocks around the stations will benefit, though.

I am sorry but you need to do more research because you are wrong... not to mention the proven track record LRT has on development and property values. You can't tell me that if the area attracts more middle income people that SPR won't benefit.

[Medwards]

You need to re read what highlander has written before you swoop down with you condescending think-you-know-it-all attitude

No opinion is ever wrong. It's an opinion not fact. And highlander hasn't stated anything that's wrong.

Now go post some random blog that you've only half read and barely digested and continue trying to act as a know it all

[edmonton daily photo]

Originally Posted by armin

Huge waste of money & resources.

The west end is big and running the LRT down STP is the dumbest, most counterproductive decision ever. For people who live in the deep west, you think they want to take an LRT that stops every few blocks?

And for businesses, i fail to see how removing their streetfront parking benefits them if the stops for the trains are so far apart that people have to walk several blocks to get to a stop.

really, the plan doesn't properly benefit anyone, and it tries too hard to be what it can't.

Pick speed over range.

STP can be handled by bus quite easily.

I think there are better threads for this but I will simply say that the SPR transit route has the capacity that demands LRT.

I respect that you have different feelings but the research i have done/doing would lead me to disagree with you.

[EveB]

No, EDP, I think you are missing the point. The people near the stops do benefit. Some of them big time. But the businesses between the stops don't really unless they are true destination businesses. For instance, I used to walk from the 39th Station in Calgary to a wool / needlework shop. There were not a steady stream of people walking from the train stop. Most people who shopped there came by car because it was a significant walk through a not terribly salubrious part of town. When knitting became fashionable and shops opened up on 4th Street (well served by busses) I transferred my business.

When I'm riding the Edmonton train I see many businesses that I might want to shop at but then the train keeps on going and going and I realize it will be a trek to meander back. And I don't.

And I am a dedicated transit rider and walker. But the fact is that things I might want to buy are in shops that are more accessible to me. I don't have to hike into unknown territory to get stuff. Unless, that is, it is a destination shop like the lone knitters shop I mentioned earlier.

Property values near the train stops increase in value. Those that are located along the line but away from the stops stay the same or decrease.

Eve

[edmonton daily photo]

So you are telli me that apx 800 - 1000m of shops and businesses won't benefit from 2 lrt stops when you yourself admitted that you walk some 600 meters to access lrt currently?

Again lrt will be a huge positive for spr in the jasper gates area as it will bring increase traffic that is pedestrian minded and will bring in more people with better incomes, spur development which adds to densification and promotes the environment required for independent buisness to thrive. You can't tell me that everyone on whyte ave parks directly inform of the store they wish to visit, leave the store, move it 20 feet to the next one, get out shop, get back in their car, move it 20 feet..... And so on and so on... No they walk!

[Medwards]

Where will this increase in traffic come from? Don't buses already go down spr?

[highlander]

Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo

I am sorry but you need to do more research because you are wrong... not to mention the proven track record LRT has on development and property values. You can't tell me that if the area attracts more middle income people that SPR won't benefit.

um....
I DID mention development, and it will happen on stony plain road, but it will take a very long time. Think decades. Generations, even, before stony plain road is a destination shopping district. Even 124st which is much closer to downtown and already has a few destination stores (MEC) won't be instantly transformed by the arrival of an LRT stop.

And you need to work on your debate skills.

[highlander]

Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo

I think there are better threads for this but I will simply say that the SPR transit route has the capacity that demands LRT.

I respect that you have different feelings but the research i have done/doing would lead me to disagree with you.

capacity never, ever, demands LRT.

Demand (ridership, both existing and future) requires capacity.
There is already considerable capacity on SPR. And considerable ridership on existing buses. How many of those riders get off the buses today to shop on SPR?

Very few, I'd wager. Just like relatively few of the thousands of riders on SPR buses get off / on at stop on that stretch.
Because the most of the demand filled by existing capacity (buses) on SPR is not actually demand for travel to SPR, it's demand to get from the greater west end to downtown or the university or a host of other places that are not the commercial strip on Stoney Plain Road.

[edmonton daily photo]

Yes and at a certain capacity it becomes more cost efficient to use lrt... Are you going to move 500 people on 10 busses that Cary 50 people and pay for 10 drivers or are you going to move them all on one or two lrt trains

The spr ridershipndemands a higher capacity service...

As for the rest. I point to my signature

[highlander]

Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo

Yes and at a certain capacity it becomes more cost efficient to use lrt... Are you going to move 500 people on 10 busses that Cary 50 people and pay for 10 drivers or are you going to move them all on one or two lrt trains

The spr ridershipndemands a higher capacity service...

As for the rest. I point to my signature

I think you mean demand when you say capacity. If so, you're right, but only to a point: if there were a faster parallel route, say, on 100ave, all the 'connecting at jasper place' demand would no longer be demand for service on SPR.

And you should be careful what you Wish for. Stoney plain road's actual density and development pattern is a lot like 118ave. Base on demand elsewhere on the line, ETS decided that the #8 demanded 60' articulated buses, but that has meant that 118avenue ( I stress: very similar to SPR) gets a 60' bus every 15 minutes. It used to have a 40' bus every 7.5 during rush hour. So with the "upgraded" service, real service quality went down.

[highlander]

The actual data: sept 2011, 2 way transit ridership on SPR is...3100 each way, enough for a full 40' bus every 15 minutes. Or an LRT every 2 hours.

[highlander]

Incidentally, there are more bus riders on 118ave approaching coliseum station from each direction that there are on SPR map

[armin]

STP is a nice neighborhood once you clean i up. It has amazing walkability, but the main problems are the lack of companies coming in and gentrifying the neighborhood.

It's like all the money stops on 149th street and you enter a whole new environment that is really overlooked.

JP terminal has easy access to west ed, downtown, north side, and the south side via Meadowlark. You could fill that area with low rise condos easily, which is part of the city's plan, but you really don't need the LRT for that because there is already fantastic bus service.

STP between 149th & 156th has great shopping/restaurant potential but no one is going to invest while the city debates the topic.

[edmonton daily photo]

Originally Posted by highlander

I think you mean demand when you say capacity. If so, you're right, but only to a point: if there were a faster parallel route, say, on 100ave, all the 'connecting at jasper place' demand would no longer be demand for service on SPR.

And you should be careful what you Wish for. Stoney plain road's actual density and development pattern is a lot like 118ave. Base on demand elsewhere on the line, ETS decided that the #8 demanded 60' articulated buses, but that has meant that 118avenue ( I stress: very similar to SPR) gets a 60' bus every 15 minutes. It used to have a 40' bus every 7.5 during rush hour. So with the "upgraded" service, real service quality went down.

No I mean capacity... Everything has a certain capacity. Roads.. Have a capacity.
The city is growing we have to find a way to increase the capacity of spr.. And you need to do it without building more road... We will also need to move more people faster.. We need to increase the capacity of public transport because high demand routes are overcrowded.. LRT wil also get rid of all bus traffic on spr from 149 to 156 helping to keep the capacity for automobiles at acceptable levels

So please don't tell me what I mean ok....

This is about increasing capacity. We know we have demand

[AShetsen]

The city is suffering from transportation over-capacity. We have all these wonderful roads. Not enough of them have enough worthwhile destinations to stop driving, get out, and walk.

[edmonton daily photo]

Not on spr...

We are talking about a stretch of 1km. You can't make it better by going..... Look this road 5 blocks away is really great!

If you are talking jasper ave that s a seven lane roadway, than yes

[Medwards]

Please don't tell me what I mean while I tell you what you mean... Says edp.

[highlander]

[QUOTE=edmonton daily photo;457005][QUOTE=highlander;456984]

Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo

No I mean capacity... Everything has a certain capacity. Roads.. Have a capacity.
The city is growing we have to find a way to increase the capacity of spr.. And you need to do it without building more road... We will also need to move more people faster.. We need to increase the capacity of public transport because high demand routes are overcrowded.. LRT wil also get rid of all bus traffic on spr from 149 to 156 helping to keep the capacity for automobiles at acceptable levels

So please don't tell me what I mean ok....

This is about increasing capacity. We know we have demand

Why exactly does stoney plain road need more capacity if the actual demand is to get past it from further est to downtown? why not 100 ave? why not a new bridge like the 87ave proposal?

There is very limited demand to go to or from that stony plain business district, so limited capacity on spr is required. Actual demand for travel to SPR could be met by a 2 lane road with buses in mixed traffic.

[The_Cat]

Perhaps side streets (150-155 Street) could allow for more parking, if they haven't done so already. The bus lane is already in on SPR eastbound, and the distance to the nearest station will be three blocks or less. I think it's time for these businesses to grow up. If they shut down, it's because of their own incompetence.

It would be great to see them promote more bike traffic when they're right next to MacKinnon Ravine and the river valley.

[sundance]

Some businesses will fail and not because of incompetence. How many businesses can withstand a 25-30% drop in business for the 1-2 years while the street is being worked on? Some businesses don't have that large of reserves to make it.

Plus some businesses may fail because of a change in demographics, is that incompetence?

[edmonton daily photo]

Sun dance there are ways to protect biz during construction.. Vancouver had grants you could apply for.

It's not the construction that's important in the op isn't the fact that without lrt some businesses are seeing a huge drop in profit.

[The_Cat]

Do these businesses also get a tax break during construction?

[moahunter]

^does the city normally give tax breaks when roads are improved? Did this happen on Alberta Avenue? Would be a bad precedent I think. Seems to me the key is to construct this fast, put some incentives and penalties in the P3 to ensure this happens. I don't see why it should take more than a year to lay some track and lines.

[edmonton daily photo]

There are ways to reduce the impact.. It likely has to be a combination of speed of construction and financial support.

The area will def be better for it once the transit is up and running

[Medwards]

But transit already runs through this area. You've yet to identify where this increase in traffic is going to come from? If you are referring to current transit customers, they can already get off the bus here... And they don't. Some how lrt is a cure all for crappy neighborhoods? This theory sure worked well in belvedere...

[moahunter]

Originally Posted by Medwards

Some how lrt is a cure all for crappy neighborhoods? This theory sure worked well in belvedere...

One suburban style station on a rail ROW didn't help much, true. Now if they had got an urban system with easy access to stores, maybe it would have helped.

[Medwards]

we already have an urban style, with stops every 1 block or so on SPR. It's called a bus. It sure doesn't seem to be helping the businesses along SPR. So your saying that adding LRT along this route will suddenly generate transit riders who want to stop n shop on SPR, even though they already have this option with a bus? Or maybe you are saying LRT will generate new transit customers, customers who will want to stop on SPR? If so where are these new transit customers going to come from?

[Chris83]

^
I live along the proposed route and would be far more inclined to take the LRT there. Imagined or not, the perceived convenience, simplicity, safety and scheduling of an LRT is generally more appealing to folks than the bus.

[EveB]

This is not about the SPR as such, but I too prefer the LRT to most busses. Some bus routes are fine, the 7 that takes me home now is usually fine. But in areas where there are, for instance, lots of baby carriages, busses with their lack of entrances and exits can be quite tricky to ride. Sometimes, on Route 3 to downtown (and back home), I've had to stand, not because the bus was full but because the front of the bus was obstructed. There's been more than once where I've had to miss my stop because both exits were jammed with people and their knapsacks and carriages. This rarely is a problem on the train.

Eve

[The_Cat]

Does anybody along SPR go outside of their neighbourhood? It would be great to be able to like in a neighbourhood that has access to many areas of the city, thanks to LRT. It would also be great to be able to have more frequent bus service, thanks to redeployment of buses.