Shep teacher kicked out of for giving students zeros

[KC]

Personally I hate the extreme adherence to any policy to the point of stupidity. In this case either giving zeros or not giving zeros.

Now, if this were pay cheques not being delivered to those among the policy police, would the policy police be ok with a commitment by the system to prove in other ways that their work is valued? Maybe a certificate of achievement, a party or something. Maybe a "make up" cheque later in the school year.



Ross Sheppard teacher kicked out of class for giving students zeros (poll)
BY ANDREA SANDS, EDMONTONJOURNAL.COM JUNE 1, 2012 7:12 AM
*
http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...514/story.html

[lat]

If the student didn't do the work, they should get a 0.

Consequences.

Very simple.

I can't believe that this policy ever came into being in the first place. High school students are close to going out into the 'real' world. They must know the consequences of not doing their job. Some of the comments at the bottom of this article are interesting too. Support from a UofA prof that has to deal with students that have never gotten a 0 is very telling.

[lat]

Good piece from Staples on this too...

Yet almost all students, he says, will make some effort to catch up on their work when Dorval presents them with two sets of marks.

One set shows their average mark for all their completed tests and work, but not factoring in the work they have failed to complete.

The second set of averaged marks factors in the zeros the students will get if they fail to do all the required work. This second, lower set of marks usually does the trick, Dorval says. “I just get a flood of assignments in and students coming to me, ‘Can I make up this quiz?’”

The students have until the end of the school year to catch up, without any penalty. “I don’t give them any punishment at all or deduction.”

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...502/story.html

[richardW]

i think this whole no 0 policy is going to create major problems when this next generation of students hits the real world. This is completely ridiculous.

[Hull534]

When the Slacker students step out into the real world , The Zeros come no matter what. Unearned and False self esteem sets people up for failure. The students who do the work and honsetly earn the results will succeed. How can our tax funded education system set up students for failure in the world outside of school?

[SteveB]

Maybe poor little Johnnie is just misunderstood.......

You don't do the work, you get zero

In the real world, you don't do the work, you get fired

Schools should be getting tougher to teach children the realities of a 7 billion person planet.

[Chmilz]

Imagine the shock when the kid fails to do their work and gets fired from their job.

"But but but... I was taught I would get rewarded for what I did do "

[KC]

Originally Posted by richardW

i think this whole no 0 policy is going to create major problems when this next generation of students hits the real world. This is completely ridiculous.

"The real world". Yeah right.

There are so many little or no consequence instances of zero performance in the "real world" that it's mind boggling. e.g. Canada signed the Kyoto Accord

Moreover, have you ever heard of a case where more was promised than delivered? In the real world, deadlines are regularly extended, milestones not met, deliveries are late, promises are broken, rent cheques are late, banks bailed out, "connected" granted exceptional treatment... it goes on and on. Often the offending parties either suffer no consequences or even profit from their failures to perform as expected.

[Edmcowboy11]

It's completely the wrong message that the school is putting forward.

[Edmcowboy11]

Originally Posted by KC

"The real world". Yeah right.

There are so many little or no consequence instances of zero performance in the "real world" that it's mind boggling. e.g. Canada signed the Kyoto Accord

Moreover, have you ever heard of a case where more was promised than delivered? In the real world, deadlines are regularly extended, milestones not met, deliveries are late, promises are broken, rent cheques are late, banks bailed out, "connected" granted exceptional treatment... it goes on and on. Often the offending parties either suffer no consequences or even profit from their failures to perform as expected.

So are you saying that we should as a society keep allowing this and teach our youth to accept and strive for mediocrity?

[KC]

Originally Posted by Edmcowboy11

It's completely the wrong message that the school is putting forward.

I was so straight it makes me sick. When I later learned of how some kids 'gamed' the system I was the one that felt like a fool. The message this sends is very important - it tells the well behaved, rule abiding kids that that their way isn't necessarily the most rewarding or right way to success.

[KC]

Originally Posted by Edmcowboy11

So are you saying that we should as a society keep allowing this and teach our youth to accept and strive for mediocrity?

One bit of advice I got early held infinite wisdom. I would quietly get 100% or close to it on all my tests and then a few times the teachers would absolutely mortify me by pointing out my scores or having me stand up in the class. Then someone said, then why do you go for 100% when all you need is about 70%.

[Legacy]

EPSB's response.. their reasoning seems like a little BS to me:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/95460985/E...-Lynden-Dorval

[KC]

Originally Posted by Legacy

EPSB's response.. their reasoning seems like a little BS to me:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/95460985/E...-Lynden-Dorval

We demand black and white responses. "We will never negotiate with terrorists" - crap like that. Everyone knows that that is the real BS.

[Hull534]

^ The Schoolboards response seems more concrened that the floodgates of dissent may be opened if it does not quash this kind or resistance.

In giving this teacher a fail , it's policy seems to be hypocritical also.

[KC]

Originally Posted by Hull534

When the Slacker students step out into the real world , The Zeros come no matter what. Unearned and False self esteem sets people up for failure. The students who do the work and honsetly earn the results will succeed. How can our tax funded education system set up students for failure in the world outside of school?

"When they made Breakout for Atari, Wozniak and Jobs were going to split the pay 50-50. Atari gave Jobs $5000 to do the job. He told Wozniak he got $700 so Wozniak took home $350."

http://www.jamesaltucher.com/2011/02...ut-steve-jobs/

"The initial release of Oracle was Oracle 2; there was no Oracle 1. The release number was intended to imply that all of the bugs had been worked out of an earlier version."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Ellison

Book Description
Publication Date: November 11, 2003
"His rise to fame and fortune is a tale of entrepreneurial brilliance, ruthless tactics, and a constant stream of half-truths and outright fabrications for which the man and his company are notorious."
http://www.amazon.com/The-Difference.../dp/0060008768

Chretien believes all politicians lie like him
By Licia Corbella, Calgary Herald
December 17, 2011

"Chretien made a lot of promises to get elected and then broke
virtually every one. What makes Chretien's broken promises so galling
is that he KNEW even as he said them, that he had no intention of
keeping them. In other words, he bald-faced lied to Canadians
repeatedly. Other politicians break promises, but it's often
circumstances that cause those promises to be broken. They usually
mean them when they make them. Not Chretien.

In the October 1993..."
http://www.anticorruption.ca/forum/p...2e908f87a5b3d1

[lazymonkeygod]

Instead of firing this teacher (giving him a zero), the school board should arrange more meetings with this teacher to provide him more information on why they are trying the no-zeros policy, and allow this teacher a chance to change his mind on handing out zero. This would align well with their no-zero policy.

[KC]

Originally Posted by lazymonkeygod

Instead of firing this teacher (giving him a zero), the school board should arrange more meetings with this teacher to provide him more information on why they are trying the no-zeros policy, and allow this teacher a chance to change his mind on handing out zero. This would align well with their no-zero policy.

I love it!

By the way, a rumour I haven't heard is that the City police will start issuing tickets for ANY speeding infraction, even just 1 kph, over the clearly stated "maximum" limit - because this is the "real world".

[moahunter]

Per the letter though, the teacher was being an *******, not attending meetings or discussions. Seems the school wanted to discuss, and he refused.

I don't like the way schools "inflate" grades to make them seem more academic than they are, and I think its fine for that to be challenged, but you do have to respect your co-staff and bosses whereever you work.

[MajorDad]

I teach in a two year diploma program at NAIT in the Engineering Technologies.

The students who are coming from the "No-Fail" environment of the Grade School System get a rude awakening.

I tell them flat out that "You have a right to fail in this country and some of you will choose to excercise that right in this course and this program".

And yes, they do get "Zero" for missed assignments and missed exams.

Who wants to drive over a bridge designed by someone who missed that exam????

[Marcel Petrin]

Heck, in NAIT's trades programs if you're late to class twice they'll pretty much boot you.

[Redd Foxx]

Every once in awhile you kids make me laugh so hard that I have to jump in and talk.

Originally Posted by KC

By the way, a rumour I haven't heard is that the City police will start issuing tickets for ANY speeding infraction, even just 1 kph, over the clearly stated "maximum" limit - because this is the "real world".

This is where is spit my coffee onto the floor laughing so hard. For a kid who claims 100% and being so straight, your deductive reasoning is lacking. This was the final sour grapes to me. Life is more than marks, but the process of achieving marks and remediating your mistakes is the real world process.



By the way, the tolerances in speed are borne out of calibration differences, road conditions, and several court cases where all parties are made to come and discuss their position. You hardly present a good example here of a failure, more an example of how the process works. However, if you go outside the tolerances, you're ticketed.

Originally Posted by KC

One bit of advice I got early held infinite wisdom. I would quietly get 100% or close to it on all my tests and then a few times the teachers would absolutely mortify me by pointing out my scores or having me stand up in the class. Then someone said, then why do you go for 100% when all you need is about 70%.

|

Those same 70% kids put in 70% in the real world and then whimper when other harder workers get more. Try doing performance reviews, you readily see who sluffed through school at 70%. They didn't learn the lesson of applying yourself more means you usually get more.

Originally Posted by KC

I was so straight it makes me sick. When I later learned of how some kids 'gamed' the system I was the one that felt like a fool. The message this sends is very important - it tells the well behaved, rule abiding kids that that their way isn't necessarily the most rewarding or right way to success.

Sometimes people get lucky. Plus, your education should tell you when to apply and for what goals rather than think that just because you were a rule follower that you get 100% in everything. The ability to look at the assignment and judge the worth of appealing or which rules to break, when, and for what end are also skills you need to learn. Striving for 100% was your own goal.

Originally Posted by KC

"The real world". Yeah right.



There are so many little or no consequence instances of zero performance in the "real world" that it's mind boggling. e.g. Canada signed the Kyoto Accord



Moreover, have you ever heard of a case where more was promised than delivered? In the real world, deadlines are regularly extended, milestones not met, deliveries are late, promises are broken, rent cheques are late, banks bailed out, "connected" granted exceptional treatment... it goes on and on. Often the offending parties either suffer no consequences or even profit from their failures to perform as expected.

This is borderline pathetic. In the real world, if you miss deadlines, you may get an extension. However, I put my team through a root cause analysis (root canal) and if there are improvements, we make them. If there is outright performance issues on the part of a team member, discipline is delivered. Just like giving them a second chance to hand something in, we need the project delivered. However, the team does not get full marks. If you miss milestones, you lose your performance bonus.



Promises are broken all the time, but your reasoning completely omits the reality of consequences. You are extrapolating intentionally missing a physics assignment to politics. If you break your marriage promise, you get a divorce, alimony, child issues, etc. If you break your promise at work, you lose out on a promotion, a bonus, lose respect and credibility, or get fired. If your rent cheques are late, or you miss payments elsewhere, you pay a penalty including losing your possessions.



The banks got bailed out due to the worldwide crisis that would have happened, but that is far greater than a physics assignment and the desire to teach our children responsibility. Then you take the Kyoto Accord, a promise made by one political party, and then its removal by another and try to correlate it to this? The party removing this promise would know that there were consequences for this action and were probably willing to pay them. In the end, we voted for that party given the system we have, so if we as a whole want this promise back, we vote someone in that will honour the promise. Trying to correlate these to this teacher is like saying my response to your reasoning would be to retaliate with global thermonuclear warfare. You're making too much of a leap.

The real issue here is that if someone can’t even be bothered to hand in something as simple as a high school assignment, and I mean not even try or hand it in, they should be judged accordingly. In the real world, that action is met with absolute, black and white, no negotiation with terrorist failure.

[lat]

^ well said Redd...

[KC]

Oh my, it's been a lot of years since I was a kid. However, there no sour grapes on my part. With few exceptions I quite responsibly blame, though possibly irresponsibly congratulate myself for my situation.

I just think that nothing in the world is simplistic. On an exam where a kid that gets 50% right and 50% wrong gets a zero under a right-minus wrong methodology. Is a zero a reasonable score? I'd say, yes, if that is the 'rule'. An otherwise normally knowledgeable kid in a class of high achievers can fail under a normally distributed marking scheme (eg. stanine). Both are also representative of real world / work world situations as well. However, we all live in a world were exceptions/tolerances (statistically or legally proven out or not) are seen as reasonable and guidelines and policies often fall out of that experience.

"Those same 70% kids put in 70% in the real world and then whimper when other harder workers get more. Try doing performance reviews, you readily see who sluffed through school at 70%. They didn't learn the lesson of applying yourself more means you usually get more." - Redd Foxx

I think you'd love what Oprah once said. Something to the effect that : 'The harder someone works the luckier they get'. As for the 70% performer, well, we were all totally capable of getting 90%+ on all our exams throughout school and university. (Some employ poor study tactics, suffer from poor memory skills, etc.) I didn't find many that did perform at the 90%+ level. I sure didn't. Everyone slacks off at some times in their lives and works flat out in others. Circumstances beyond their control also enter the picture.

On the reality of consequences, I'm saying that they aren't always evenly if at all applied. That's the real world. Politicians can sign agreements like Kyoto, promise to rework the GST, etc and then take zero action to fulfill the requirements, and then get re-elected. (I guess they scored zero on some assignments but still pulled off a pass.)

Don't get me wrong, personally I believe in the concept of giving out zeros for undelivered assignments etc. However, I do like to play the devil's advocate to hash out the other than most simplistic positions. For any policy out there, there was probably some reasonable justification for it being instituted.

[East McCauley]

Originally Posted by moahunter

Per the letter though, the teacher was being an *******, not attending meetings or discussions. Seems the school wanted to discuss, and he refused.

I don't like the way schools "inflate" grades to make them seem more academic than they are, and I think its fine for that to be challenged, but you do have to respect your co-staff and bosses whereever you work.

From reading the letter, this is how I see it as well. As a teacher, Dorval has all sorts of proper channels to try to get a policy he disagrees with changed. Instead, he chose to act in an improper way.

This type of insubordination would not be tolerated in very many workplaces. As a supervisor, I would also be displeased to see a letter dealing with a personnel matter end up in a daily newspaper. Dorval deserves a grade of 0 for his actions.

[lazymonkeygod]

Originally Posted by East McCauley

From reading the letter, this is how I see it as well. As a teacher, Dorval has all sorts of proper channels to try to get a policy he disagrees with changed. Instead, he chose to act in an improper way.

This type of insubordination would not be tolerated in very many workplaces. As a supervisor, I would also be displeased to see a letter dealing with a personnel matter end up in a daily newspaper. Dorval deserves a grade of 0 for his actions.

Schools are not allowed to give him a "grade of 0". They should write him up as "unable to comply" and try to get him to comply with policy rather than firing him.

[Legacy]

EPSB: Why they grade students the way they do:
http://news.epsb.ca/2012/05/why-do-w...the-way-we-do/

"The School Act authorizes suspensions for only three reasons: if there are reasonable grounds for believing the teacher has been guilty of gross misconduct, neglecting the teacher’s duty or neglecting to obey a lawful order of the board."

I don't see how Mr Dorval's suspension is justified by those three reasons. The only grey area here would be "gross misconduct," and there doesn't seem to be any apparent evidence of that.

"Lawful Order of the board?" It's plainly stated in the first paragraph that "Edmonton Public Schools does not have a district-wide no zero policy." Maybe they're suspending him because he's violating a "lawful order of the school," but definitely not the board for obvious reasons.

[KC]

Add up all the executive, legal and administrative time now devoted to this issue and it would have been a lot cheaper to try to pay the student(s) to do their homework.

[East McCauley]

^Legacy, I'm not sure if you've ever been in a supervisory or management position and have had to make the decision to suspend or terminate an employee. It is the toughest part of a supervisor's job because you know that in most cases a person's livelihood and future employment prospects are at stake. In a unionized workplace especially, there is the additional concern about potential employer liability if you aren't on unassailable legal ground.

IMO, if there was a modicum of truth to the facts as set out in the Superintendent's letter, in most workplaces this would be grounds for not only suspension but termination. The fact that a confidential letter ended up in the hands of the Journal is only a confirmation that the original decision was the correct one.

With 35 years of service, Dorval is likely in a position to leave the teaching profession with a full pension. What better way than to leave than on some point of great principle. These actions are far from heroic and deserve a grade of zero.

Judging from many of the comments on this forum and reader comments in the Journal, this action may also be a great platform launch for a new career as a school trustee.

[Chmilz]

Copy/paste in case you want to voice your concerns to all the elected trustees:

Michael.Janz@epsb.ca, Catherine.Ripley@epsb.ca, Heather.MacKenzie@epsb.ca, Dave.Colburn@epsb.ca, cheryl.johner@epsb.ca, ken.shipka@epsb.ca, christopher.spencer@epsb.ca, sarah.hoffman@epsb.ca, leslie.cleary@epsb.ca

[The_Cat]

People have to learn that a "zero" or "fail" is not a punishment, it's a measurement of performance. If Mr. Dorval passed or graded this student it would, in effect, be instilling false self-esteem, which would not benefit the student.

[KC]

Originally Posted by East McCauley

^Legacy, I'm not sure if you've ever been in a supervisory or management position and have had to make the decision to suspend or terminate an employee. It is the toughest part of a supervisor's job because you know that in most cases a person's livelihood and future employment prospects are at stake. In a unionized workplace especially, there is the additional concern about potential employer liability if you aren't on unassailable legal ground.

IMO, if there was a modicum of truth to the facts as set out in the Superintendent's letter, in most workplaces this would be grounds for not only suspension but termination. The fact that a confidential letter ended up in the hands of the Journal is only a confirmation that the original decision was the correct one....

Judging from many of the comments on this forum and reader comments in the Journal, this action may also be a great platform launch for a new career as a school trustee.

"confirmation that the original decision was the correct one.". Oh my. Fodder for the ethics class.

[Transplanted_Edm]

I agree with both the teacher and the school board on this one.

Fully agree with the teacher's opinions but he didn't use the right channels or methods to get his point across. Sounds like this had been discussed several times and he was warned and yet continued to defy school policy. Can hardly imagine he didn't know it would end this way. He chose to make a statement and deliberately push the boundaries until he got fired and generated some publicity about it.

If we are talking about the "real world", then I would say people often don't agree with directives from their supervisor or place of employment but need to obey them if they are legal.

I read through the Ross Sheppard assessment policy and it's a total joke, but the teacher is welcome to resign if he does not feel he is able to teach by those standards.

[Thomas Hinderks]

Originally Posted by Transplanted_Edm

I agree with both the teacher and the school board on this one.

Fully agree with the teacher's opinions but he didn't use the right channels or methods to get his point across. Sounds like this had been discussed several times and he was warned and yet continued to defy school policy. Can hardly imagine he didn't know it would end this way. He chose to make a statement and deliberately push the boundaries until he got fired and generated some publicity about it.

If we are talking about the "real world", then I would say people often don't agree with directives from their supervisor or place of employment but need to obey them if they are legal.

I read through the Ross Sheppard assessment policy and it's a total joke, but the teacher is welcome to resign if he does not feel he is able to teach by those standards.

Everyone has a different perspective.

A family member's son graduated from Shep last year and I have been told (right or wrong) this had been discussed and the teacher had attempted to go through channels and was completely shut down.

Seems to me after 35 years he came to the conclusion this was the (figurative) "hill to die on" for the sake of the students in the long term.

While some may criticize him, others the policy, one thing is for sure...

You have to admire someone that stands for what they believe is right and is willing to go to the wall to make a difference when there was no gain for him.

I know (3) things
1) I agree with the position he took
2) EPSB is out to lunch allowing this policy
3) My youngest will never attend a school where the principal involved is in charge.

My opinion

[overoceans]

KC raises some interesting points in his devil's advocacy.

I don't know if his comparison with broken political promises is all that apt, since politics is one field that everyone recognizes as being conducted by rather different standards, probably due to the nature of the democratic process, where you get elected by appealing to various interest groups, who are often in conflict with one another, and can't always say exactly what you mean, or deliver exactly what you promised.

I think we all know that when, let's say, Alison Redford says on the campaign trail "I will support funding for Project X in Calgary", there's a chance that that won't happen, due to other forces that might come into play after the election(eg. the rest of Alberta might express deep resentment at having to fund the project, and threaten to vote her out next time).

But when a boss says "Following a three month probationary period, all new employees will be given a pay increase", we pretty much expect that that's going to happen, and would feel cheated if it doesn't. Whether we would have any LEGAL recourse might depend on whether or not the pay raise was written into the contract. Election promises, to get back to that, are NOT legally binding contracts.

I'm undecided as to where school assignments should place in the continuum spanning from signed business contracts to informal verbal assurances. I will say that the school system I went through in the 1970s/80s was AT LEAST as lax as the one described by this Ross Shep controversy. It was always a question as to whether or not a teacher would issue a final grade strictly according to the test scores, or whether he's factor in things like effort, attitude, etc(I managed to pass a Mickey Mouse law course, even though I inadvertantly skipped an exam to play hooky, and admitted as much to the teacher). But I suspect our graduating class included the same ratio of doctors, lawyers, teachers, well-paid blue collar laborers, as any previous.

When I got to Grant MaxEwan in the late 80s, things were even more touchy-feely. I managed to pass a computing science class, despite learning absolutely NOTHING, because the prof included some softball questions("Are computers a good infleunce on society?") on the final exam. I will observe that most of the university-transfer students in that program did not seem to go onto university, and if they did, quit after a few months. I managed to get through uni, but with a lot of extensions on papers etc.

[Transplanted_Edm]

I guess the teacher effectively did resign since he knew it would end this way. Crafty of him for doing so by "forcing" the board to suspend him, then going public in a way that brought some attention to the issue vs. just leaving quietly when faced with educational policies he fundamentally didn't agree with.

He achieved his goals and is teaching according to his principles, which is commendable. But he shouldn't be complaining about the outcome now.

[jagators63]

lesson learned the hard way for Dorval and the students, if Dorval is suspended from the school, he should accept his mistakes and for the students, it is wake up call for them, failing the grade means sending students back for summer months. is it really worth it for the students ??

[KC]

Originally Posted by overoceans

KC raises some interesting points in his devil's advocacy.

I don't know if his comparison with broken political promises is all that apt, since politics is one field that everyone recognizes as being conducted by rather different standards, probably due to the nature of the democratic process, where you get elected by appealing to various interest groups, who are often in conflict with one another, and can't always say exactly what you mean, or deliver exactly what you promised.

I think we all know that when, let's say, Alison Redford says on the campaign trail "I will support funding for Project X in Calgary", there's a chance that that won't happen, due to other forces that might come into play after the election(eg. the rest of Alberta might express deep resentment at having to fund the project, and threaten to vote her out next time).

But when a boss says "Following a three month probationary period, all new employees will be given a pay increase", we pretty much expect that that's going to happen, and would feel cheated if it doesn't. Whether we would have any LEGAL recourse might depend on whether or not the pay raise was written into the contract. Election promises, to get back to that, are NOT legally binding contracts.

I'm undecided as to where school assignments should place in the continuum spanning from signed business contracts to informal verbal assurances. I will say that the school system I went through in the 1970s/80s was AT LEAST as lax as the one described by this Ross Shep controversy. It was always a question as to whether or not a teacher would issue a final grade strictly according to the test scores, or whether he's factor in things like effort, attitude, etc(I managed to pass a Mickey Mouse law course, even though I inadvertantly skipped an exam to play hooky, and admitted as much to the teacher). But I suspect our graduating class included the same ratio of doctors, lawyers, teachers, well-paid blue collar laborers, as any previous.

When I got to Grant MaxEwan in the late 80s, things were even more touchy-feely. I managed to pass a computing science class, despite learning absolutely NOTHING, because the prof included some softball questions("Are computers a good infleunce on society?") on the final exam. I will observe that most of the university-transfer students in that program did not seem to go onto university, and if they did, quit after a few months. I managed to get through uni, but with a lot of extensions on papers etc.

Politics is the "real world" too. As we're all taught, "there's no guarantees in life".

If they'd left the zero tolerance (pun intended) control in teachers' hands at least there'd be a randomness to the process. That might make it harder for students and schools alike to game the system.

Hilarious, on your computing class. I too once received a very respectable mark in a university class were I too understood near nothing of what the teacher was supposedly trying to teach. The night prior to the final exam I told my parents that I wasn't even going to write the final exam. They told me to go and just give it a try. My answers were beyond pitiful but it turned out, I suppose, that the rest of my class knew even less than me.

[Edmonton PRT]

I received a resume last week that proudly stated that he had a 80% attendance record in highschool and I found no indication that he graduated. I thought to myself, 80% attendance is missing one entire day each week.

Funny, for some reason he did not get the job.

In my day, not too long ago, students recieved awards for perfect attendence. 80% attendance in a work environment is a failing grade, which employer is going to put up with a person who misses 50+ days a year?


If you don't complete your University assignments, You know what? THEY KICK YOU OUT, end of story.

If an employer asks his staff to do a job such as, meeting a customer, install a piece of equipment, submit a budget, balance the cash, clean the floor, etc. and the employee fails to do the assigned job within a reasonable time. You know what? THEY LOSE THEIR JOB, end of story.

If you don't pay your loan or mortgage, You know what? THEY TAKE YOUR CAR OR YOUR HOUSE, end of story.

If you don`t pay your taxes (including school taxes) You know what? THEY TAKE YOUR MONEY from your paycheck, end of story.

The teacher is right. Life is tough and sending out kids into the tough world where they are unprepared for reality.

Better to get a zero on an assignment and learn to make a effort to achieve than getting by with zero education and ending up a ZERO.

[lat]

I like that. Better to get a zero, than be a zero.

[Edmonton PRT]

Originally Posted by KC

I too once received a very respectable mark in a university class were I too understood near nothing of what the teacher was supposedly trying to teach. The night prior to the final exam I told my parents that I wasn't even going to write the final exam. They told me to go and just give it a try. My answers were beyond pitiful but it turned out, I suppose, that the rest of my class knew even less than me.

I am still amazed that the UofA and other institutions grade on the curve. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grading_on_a_curve

This predetermined statistical method makes it assured that a certain number will always pass regardless of ability or inability. If 50% are determined to pass, in one year, a gifted class with a real test average of 80%, only 50% pass, in another year full of dunces with a 40% real test average, 50% will pass, maybe none deserving to. It is not only the students who are statistically marginalized or predetermined (read pre-judged) but also the teacher. The teacher knows full well that no matter what his/her effort, the same amount will pass. If a teacher strives for the best output from the class and helps them by excellent class preparation extra instruction, intensive classes and high standards, the predetermined number will pass. Another teacher can just sit at their desk, run a automatic power-point presentation while sleeping, pass out assignments and tests, offer no after class support and still have the exact number pass as the teacher who strives for excellence.

School boards who accept mediocrity from their student also accept mediocrity from their staff and actually punish those students and teachers who want to achieve more.

I will take a society based on meritocracy over on based upon mediocrity, ever time.

mediocr-e, ity
adjective
1. of only ordinary or moderate quality; neither good nor bad; barely adequate: The car gets only mediocre mileage, but it's fun to drive. Synonyms: undistinguished, commonplace, pedestrian, everyday; run-of-the-mill. Antonyms: extraordinary, superior, uncommon, incomparable.

2. not satisfactory; poor; inferior: Mediocre construction makes that building dangerous. Synonyms: meager, low-quality, second-rate; so-so. Antonyms: excellent, superior.

meritocracy
noun, plural mer·i·toc·ra·cies.
1. an elite group of people whose progress is based on ability and talent rather than on class privilege or wealth.
2. a system in which such persons are rewarded and advanced: The dean believes the educational system should be a meritocracy.
3. leadership by able and talented persons.

Peter Principle
noun
any of several satirical “laws” concerning organizational structure, especially one that holds that people tend to be promoted until they reach their level of incompetence.

[KC]

Meritocracy. Again that's not the real world. We all want to think we can have a level playing field with the same black and white rules applying to all. However, the real world is messy and rewards and ability are not even distributed to all. Some kids face very adult-like issues well before the average or pampered student does so. Yet they are kids with the minds of kids. I can imagine that the policy is trying to recognize this fact of life and cut them some slack in the hope that one mistake won't follow them for the rest of their lives like a criminal record.

In fact in the real world a lot of activity is very grey and not black and white. Hockey tickets are given out, meals and drinks paid for... all as personal bribes or rewards for (in appreciation of) making deals etc. It's not a level playing field and never has been.

[Transplanted_Edm]

Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT

I am still amazed that the UofA and other institutions grade on the curve. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grading_on_a_curve

This predetermined statistical method makes it assured that a certain number will always pass regardless of ability or inability. If 50% are determined to pass, in one year, a gifted class with a real test average of 80%, only 50% pass, in another year full of dunces with a 40% real test average, 50% will pass, maybe none deserving to.

University classes can often have over 100 students. I think there is some confidence that the chances of getting "a year full of dunces" doesn't happen based on statistics and the fact that the students academic record gets examined as part of gaining admission into the program in the first place.

Common sense tells you that out of 100 people you will have some much stronger than the others, a group with basically equal ability, and a few who will struggle.

[jagators63]

I prefer giving students an "F" rather than zeros because students did not complete the paper but got some correct answers on the paper , so anything less than 50 % mark is still consider as fail.

[EveB]

Originally Posted by jagators63

I prefer giving students an "F" rather than zeros because students did not complete the paper but got some correct answers on the paper , so anything less than 50 % mark is still consider as fail.

How can the teacher know you have some answers right on a paper that isn't handed in or a test that isn't taken?

Eve

[jagators63]

Originally Posted by EveB

How can the teacher know you have some answers right on a paper that isn't handed in or a test that isn't taken?

Eve

I'm sure teacher did ask students to hand in thier paper, only to find the paper wasn't finished, teacher gave them zeros instead of an F because teacher never bother check some correct or wrong answers. sounds to me, teacher is rushing to judgment by giving them zeros without checking all the answers in the exams, essays or whatever ?

[EveB]

In this case, the teacher gave the student every chance to hand in their paper or do replacement work. Ditto the tests. When we are talking about incomplete grades we are not talking about a paper that is partially done, we are talking about a paper that doesn't even exist. Thus the term's work (with its roster of papers, quizzes and exams) is "incomplete". The teacher gives every chance to hand *something* in, and if even that minimal requirement isn't met, then that teacher gave them a zero on that part of the course. This, according to the Ross Shepherd principal, is not allowed because ... oh, I don't know what because ... but because that student's feelings might be hurt and we can't have that.

I don't know what public interest you think might be served by graduating students who are incapable of even making an effort. It is not good for the students. In this case, the teacher was a Physics teacher. I can assure you that these students will not get a break if they take a University physics course. University physics profs have no problem giving zeroes for work that is not handed in or giving extreme failing grades if the work is nonsensical.

Eve

[Medwards]

Originally Posted by jagators63

I'm sure teacher did ask students to hand in thier paper, only to find the paper wasn't finished, teacher gave them zeros instead of an F because teacher never bother check some correct or wrong answers. sounds to me, teacher is rushing to judgment by giving them zeros without checking all the answers in the exams, essays or whatever ?

did you even read the article in the link?

[Medwards]

Back when I was a student not so long ago, I saw teachers hand out zero's if you were late... even if it was complete.

[jagators63]

when I was in High school 30 yrs ago, teachers don't give out zeros at all and just giving out any marks even it is complete or not.

[KC]

They ought to give out noughts when naughty.


Good article...
http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...502/story.html

[Edmonton PRT]

Originally Posted by Transplanted_Edm

University classes can often have over 100 students. I think there is some confidence that the chances of getting "a year full of dunces" doesn't happen based on statistics and the fact that the students academic record gets examined as part of gaining admission into the program in the first place.

Common sense tells you that out of 100 people you will have some much stronger than the others, a group with basically equal ability, and a few who will struggle.

But the skill and teaching ability of the professor can vary wildly. Even in highschool I remember a popular Math 30/31 teacher who left midyear on an Austrialian exchange. The stern Aussie teacher we received made math a drag and his unrelenting loading up of work overwhelmed even the brightest student and the class average dropped by more than 10 points.

[Gord Lacey]

Yup, very, very true EPRT. I remember my Social Studies grades in High School: 78, 52, 81. Something look a little odd there? Grade 11 I had a senile old man that didn't like me for whatever reason, taught horribly, and almost failed me. He retired the next year, though I think that was about 5 years too late. First week of Grade 12 and my teacher was trying to drop me to Social 33 based on my previous mark. Yikes.

[Edmonton PRT]

Gord, that was scary, I think I had the same teacher for 11th grade math as you.

[Blueline]

"The Mooks Shall Inherit The Earth"
This is what a lack of incentive to do at least the minimum breeds

[KC]

We want to hold kids to an unwavering standard yet as adults we frequently to skirt our responsibilities...

Another "real world" example in the news today... (I bet all involved grew up in the era of a zero is a zero but it obviously didn't help.)

Two Ontario First Nations show signs of ongoing mercury poisoning:*report
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/06...cury-poisoning

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/p...japanese-study

"What is “shameful” is that this has been allowed to go on for 40 years with little government acknowledgement or help for the people afflicted, said Ontario Regional Chief Angus Toulouse."



http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/...s-mercury.html

"The compensation is based on a point system for the severity of symptoms. However, the three-decade-old agreement has no provision to adjust the payments for inflation."

[jagators63]

I believe that Dorval should accept suspension from the school rather than fight against the school.

[Thomas Hinderks]

Originally Posted by KC

We want to hold kids to an unwavering standard yet as adults we frequently to skirt our responsibilities...

Another "real world" example in the news today... (I bet all involved grew up in the era of a zero is a zero but it obviously didn't help.)

Two Ontario First Nations show signs of ongoing mercury poisoning:*report
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/06...cury-poisoning

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/p...japanese-study

"What is “shameful” is that this has been allowed to go on for 40 years with little government acknowledgement or help for the people afflicted, said Ontario Regional Chief Angus Toulouse."



http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/...s-mercury.html

"The compensation is based on a point system for the severity of symptoms. However, the three-decade-old agreement has no provision to adjust the payments for inflation."

The example you give is a perfect example of what the no-zero policy creates...lack of accountability.

As a parent of both an elementary school student and a University student I have watched the effects of the school system since my time as a student.

No Zero is in my opinion a symptom of a much greater problem.

[MrOilers]

I had high school teachers who handed out zeros.

But they always let students submit the work later, before the end of the term to help erase those zeros (with a penalty, of course), and students saw first-hand how much the zeros actually affected their grade.

[KC]

Originally Posted by Thomas Hinderks

The example you give is a perfect example of what the no-zero policy creates...lack of accountability.

As a parent of both an elementary school student and a University student I have watched the effects of the school system since my time as a student.

No Zero is in my opinion a symptom of a much greater problem.

I totally agree with you there, but again my thinking is likely overly simplistic on this issue so I have to challenge my thoughts on this.

I'd guess that our school system doesn't offer much in the way of alternatives for those kids that have never "fit the mould" very well, or have other issues (teen rape, pregnancy/abortion, bullying, drugs, child molestation, depression, authority issues or whatever) that are interfering with their productivity that moment in their lives. On "accountability," I just have to think of the 1930s and 40s, to imagine scenarios where some kids in being accountable, sacrificed their school work.


Here's an article with some interesting comments about people of the fringe of society:

"Entrepreneurs also display a striking number of mental oddities. Julie Login of Cass Business School surveyed a group of entrepreneurs and found that 35% of them said that they suffered from dyslexia, compared with 10% of the population as a whole and 1% of professional managers."

"Recruiters have noticed that the mental qualities that make a good computer programmer resemble those that might get you diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome: an obsessive interest in narrow subjects; a passion for numbers, patterns and machines; an addiction to repetitive tasks; and a lack of sensitivity to social cues."

"Where does that leave the old-fashioned organization man? He will do just fine... Someone has to ensure that dull but necessary tasks are done."

Why Business Needs People With Asperger's Syndrome, Attention-Deficit Disorder And Dyslexia, The Economist, Jun. 5, 2012, 12:13 PM
http://www.businessinsider.com/why-b...yslexia-2012-6

[Thomas Hinderks]

KC

I'd guess that our school system doesn't offer much in the way of alternatives for those kids that have never "fit the mould" very well, or have other issues (teen rape, pregnancy/abortion, bullying, drugs, child molestation, depression, authority issues or whatever) that are interfering with their productivity that moment in their lives.

I am currently living this with my son in early elementary school who has defined issues and frankly there is a ton of programs available if you take the time to dig, work at finding the solutions and make the effort to support the child.

There are also some great teachers and programs in EPSB, but the staffing is inconsistent/subject to short notice change and the programs constantly changing in their theories.

Children in this type of programming rely on consistency...in our case my son has had (2) different teachers in (1) year and is facing another for next year as teachers on leave return and replace those that have been in place for long periods.

This might be fair for the teachers but it is not for the kids working through the programs to get them back in the main stream.

On "accountability," I just have to think of the 1930s and 40s, to imagine scenarios where some kids in being accountable, sacrificed their school work.

You don't have to go back that far by any stretch...I had to pass up the ability to deal with family factors in my early 20s...I know many in my peer group that had to do the same. Accountability is a very important part of how I work and there are many others that are the same. The issue is those we do not hold accountable.

Lack of accountability starts at a young age in today's world. From elementary where I have seen parent blatantly deny children's misbehavior in school settings in spite of the facts, right through high school, into the work place and throughout our political system.

Society as a whole needs to start holding people accountable for their actions and frankly that needs to start in school.

My Opinion

[KC]

More thoughts on accountability.

A few years ago I was downtown picking up a security clearance from the City Police and got talking with the cop behind the counter. She surprised me when she said that it's sad giving reports to some older guys that did some stupid little thing as kids and it will likely keep them from getting a job years later.

Society has its extremes, from no kid left behind to ensuring some kids are forever left behind.


10 Things Your Commencement Speaker Won't Tell You
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...400453796.html

"1. Your time in fraternity basements was well spent.

The same goes for the time you spent playing intramural sports, working on the school newspaper or just hanging with friends. Research tells us that one of the most important causal factors associated with happiness and well-being is your meaningful connections with other human beings. Look around today. Certainly one benchmark of your postgraduation success should be how many of these people are still your close friends in 10 or 20 years."...

"3. Don't make the world worse. I know that I'm supposed to tell you to aspire to great things. But I'm going to lower the bar here: Just don't use your prodigious talents to mess things up. Too many smart people are doing that already. And if you really want to cause social mayhem, it helps to have an Ivy League degree. You are smart and motivated and creative. Everyone will tell you that you can change the world. They are right, but remember that "changing the world" also can include things like skirting financial regulations and selling unhealthy foods to increasingly obese children. I am not asking you to cure cancer. I am just asking you not to spread it."...

"8. Don't model your life after a circus animal. Performing animals do tricks because their trainers throw them peanuts or small fish for doing so. You should aspire to do better. You will be a friend, a parent, a coach, an employee—and so on. But only in your job will you be explicitly evaluated and rewarded for your performance. Don't let your life decisions be distorted by the fact that your boss is the only one tossing you peanuts. If you leave a work task undone in order to meet a friend for dinner, then you are "shirking" your work. But it's also true that if you cancel dinner to finish your work, then you are shirking your friendship. That's just not how we usually think of it.

9. It's all borrowed time. You shouldn't take anything for granted, not even tomorrow. I offer you the "hit by a bus" rule. Would I regret spending my life this way if I were to get hit by a bus next week or next year? And the important corollary: Does this path lead to a life I will be happy with and proud of in 10 or 20 years if I don't get hit by a bus."...


.

[jagators63]

Education experts and officials are defending the controversial no-zero approach used in most Edmonton public high schools, despite public backlash unleashed last week after a high school teacher who gave zeros was suspended.

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...552/story.html

[AShetsen]

As KC's pointed out, neither a no-zero nor some sort of all-zero policy has much relation to the way things work in practice. I don't think the message the school board's no-zero policy sends is any worse than the message of all the enthusiastic fail-them grumps, which is anger and frustration pure and simple.

[deedub35]

As a former teacher (taught for 10 years) before becoming a full time general contractor I noticed a few things that didn't sit well with me about the education system.

The system is trying to go for a 100% success ratio. So they are trying to eliminate all fails as the student is going through K to 12.

They don't fail kids in elementary or junior high. They are passed on with their peer groups. I taught high school math, general science, and physics. By the time they reach high school there a clear gap in student performance. In grade 10 math some can't multiply without the use of a calculator while in the very same class there are some that could teach the course. I know from former colleagues that in grade 10 english some can barely form a logical paragraph while some can write amazing essays.

Every few years they change the curriculum. The math curriculum is so watered down now that there is virtually no calculus in there. When I taught there was a pure stream (for those wanting to go to university), applied stream (with no hard stuff), and 14 (really low teach life skills like money management, etc.)

My former school instituted the no zero policy years ago. I hated it but wasn't about to lose my job to make a point. Students had the entire year to make up any assignments they missed. And to boot they had the option to rewrite exams.

So glad I got out of the profession.

[Marcel Petrin]

It's actually fairly interesting to see studies that reflect that kind of attitude, that show that even at post-secondary levels far more students get A's these days than they did a few decades ago.

http://www.economist.com/node/21552214

Some other strains of inflation have more serious economic effects. One example is grade inflation, the tendency for comparable academic performance to be awarded higher grades over time. In Britain the proportion of A-level students given “A” grades has risen from 9% to 27% over the past 25 years. Yet other tests find that children are no cleverer than they were. A study by Durham University concluded that an A grade today is the equivalent of a C in the 1980s. In American universities almost 45% of graduates now get the top grade, compared with 15% in 1960. Grade inflation makes students feel better about themselves, but because the highest grade is fixed, it also causes grade compression, which distorts relative prices. This is unfair to the brightest, whose grades are devalued against those of average students. It also makes it harder for employers to identify the best applicants.

[AShetsen]

By the way, about accountability in the real world. Any good manager knows the real goal is to get the most out of the people available to do the work at hand. Beyond an initial get-acquainted period there's seldom any need to dismiss anyone for incompetence, and the supervisors very quickly adjust the tasks they give out to the person's real abilities.

[bolo]

Is half the grade 12 mark still determined by standardized testing? If so, our grading is still much more harsh than other provinces (like Ontario where a class average would be 80%). In many regards, I don't fully agree with the policy either. But in the real world, if it gives Edmonton students a fair shake at other universities against their grade inflated peers, then I can understand things. No offense to the UofA, it's a top tier school in many regards, but there are very good programs in other universities that Alberta students don't get a fair shot at.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grade_inflation#Ontario
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grade_inflation#Alberta

Alberta’s focus on standardized exams keeps grade inflation in check, but can put Albertan high school students at a disadvantage relative to students in other provinces. However, Alberta has the highest standards in Canada, and produces students who are among the best in international comparisons.[25] By preventing grade inflation, Albertan high schools have been able to greatly ameliorate the problem of compressing students with different abilities into the same category (i.e. inflating grades so that a student in the 98th percentile, for example, cannot be distinguished from one in the 82nd percentile).

Anyways, from what I've been reading. The whole no zeros policy isn't there to pass people who don't do work (they still fail the course with an incomplete). It's there to not skew their marks to misrepresent their actual knowledge of the course material. So in essence, they are just removing the bad attitude and effort component from grading. I don't necessarily agree with that either (I value effort and attitude in the workplace), but I can at least see where they are coming from.

[deedub35]

Originally Posted by bolo

Is half the grade 12 mark still determined by standardized testing? If so, our grading is still much more harsh than other provinces (like Ontario where a class average would be 80%).

Yes. Oh did you know that the year end diploma exams some of them are multiple choice only? My last year of teaching was 2009 and the math exams eliminated the written component.

[Edmonton PRT]

Provincial funding formula encourages grade inflation, critics of no-zero policy say

The Alberta government funds high schools based on the number of students taking each credit course. That funding is clawed back when a student earns a final mark lower than 25 per cent. Funding is also clawed back for students who earn a final mark between 25 and 50 per cent if they don’t attend at least half their classes or complete at least half the course work.
If a teacher boosts a student’s 20-per-cent grade to 25 per cent, the school keeps its money, he said.
The no-zero approach also helps keep overall grades up because zeros for missed assignments would drag them down, he said.
“It improves completion rates artificially and it inflates grades,” said Davies.
“It is a pressure on teachers and I think a lot of them resent being put in that position, where they are forced to give students marks that have not been earned. They do that to maintain the funds. Education has been under a lot of stress, financially.”

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...215/story.html

[sundance]

Ah nice to see such leadership from the school trustees
---
No debate by public school trustees on the "No Zero" policy
Public school trustees didn't debate trustee Michael Janz's motion to have the board's policy committee review district assessment practices.
http://www.630ched.com/Channels/Reg/...spx?ID=1720060

[Edmonton PRT]

Originally Posted by sundance

Ah nice to see such leadership from the school trustees
---
No debate by public school trustees on the "No Zero" policy
Public school trustees didn't debate trustee Michael Janz's motion to have the board's policy committee review district assessment practices.
http://www.630ched.com/Channels/Reg/...spx?ID=1720060

I see that the school trustee cannot be trusted to do their assignments on time.

Give them a failing grade... ZERO

[sundance]

Finally they decide that maybe waiting until September is a bad idea...
---
Edmonton trustees discuss "no zero" policy
Brenton Driedger 630 CHED 6/26/2012
...
Edmonton Public school trustees are holding a special meeting at 1pm Tuesday, and Michael Janz is calling for a review of student assessment policies. This comes after Lynden Dorval ... was suspended for giving zeros to students. The "no zero" policy at Ross Shep was brought in by the principal.
...
http://www.630ched.com/Channels/Reg/...spx?ID=1728024

[Chmilz]

http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/201...-zeros-policy/

Looks like they're trying to fire him. I hope this is political suicide for the entire board.

[bolo]

^Don't really have an issue with that. An employee violating company policies should be fired.

If anything, this will play right into Dorval's crusade to garner public support against the "no zeros" policy. And my guess is that the policy will be changed/refined for public approval, but not abolished. I think the policy as intended, and the policy as executed are not consistent and that definitely needs to be changed.

[EveB]

In the first Dorval interview I heard, he made it clear that he knew that his job was on the line and he was sort of okay with that. He made the calculations vis a vis distance to retirement, etc., and decided he could afford it rather than continuing a policy that violated some pretty basic principles for him.

I want to stress, that it is also clear from what Dorval said, that he did exactly what the board said he should, i.e., chasing the students for their assignments, trying to figure out blockages, etc. It was only when all this failed that he assigned zeros.

I have a feeling that this is going to end up badly for the board. I also understand that, having violated a clear policy, that Dorval will probably be fired for that. He'll leave a legacy however.

Eve

[Gord Lacey]

Originally Posted by Chmilz

http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/201...-zeros-policy/

Looks like they're trying to fire him. I hope this is political suicide for the entire board.

Whoa, whoa, whoa... it's not the board that's trying to fire him, it's the principal at his school. The board is looking at whether there needs to be changes to the Edmonton Public School policy that allows individual schools to not assign zeros. Now, whether or not they decide a school can assign a zero, it may not save Dorval's job. He's not being fired because he didn't give zeros, he's being fired because he disobeyed a superior.

[Chmilz]

Well then fire him I guess. Makes no difference, the education system is less concerned about education and more concerned about self esteem anyway. Passing students is simply a way of crowd-funding for the schools, so they just make them feel warm and fuzzy before they get unleashed into reality.

[moahunter]

The grade issue is interseting. My gf just got told by a professor or hers that everyone in her class will get an A+ because he doesn't believe in grades. None of the students are complaining, but I wonder if this is what education is really about, I'm not sure its right that the teacher or a professor is a god unto themselves, with no standard oversight.

[Pastaboy]

Time to pull out the old saying and add a new line:

Those who can; DO
Those who can't; TEACH
Those who can't teach; TEACH TEACHERS
Those who can't do anything become administrators and teaching consultants.