Highway 63 to Ft. McMurray | Discussion

[The_Cat]

I believe a rest stop is part of the Highway 63 plan.

[jagators63]

facebook page have started for this hwy 63

https://www.facebook.com/pages/TWIN-...64676160295418


open letter to Premier Redford.

http://www.mcmurraymusings.com/2012/...n-redford.html

[Sonic Death Monkey]

Deputy PM responses to CBC and CTV:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...-twinning.html

Deputy Premier Doug Horner says twinning the dangerous highway right away isn't as easy as it sounds.

"When you think about the amount of traffic that's on the road today; when you think about the amount of environmental sensitivity with some of the crossings that we have to do; when you think about the actual terrain — is pouring more money at it going to make it faster?"

Horner says completing 30 or 40 kilometers a year is the best way to get all 250 kilometers done.

"I think that what we do need to do is make sure that we're doing it on an ongoing basis that we're not disrupting the traffic patterns."

http://edmonton.ctv.ca/servlet/an/lo...b=EdmontonHome

Deputy Premier Doug Horner responded to the growing outcry on social media to separate the north and southbound lanes of Highway 63, and called Friday's crash a tragedy, but also said he can't give a timeline for when the roadway will be completed.

Horner told CTV News crews are dealing with marshland along the route, which has seriously slowed work.

"If you've got a bottomless bog, how do you fill that?" Horner said. "So they've got to do some interesting things there.

"You've got to make sure the highway is safe when it's complete too, because you don't want the bottom falling out of it."

Regardless, Horner said the Redford government is doing the best it can. Since 2006, about 33 kilometres of Highway 63 has been twinned, with another 36 kilometres set to be completed by the fall.

"If it was in the premier's power to wave her wand today and have it twinned, it would be done," Horner said. "That's not in her power, but it is a priority of this government."

The Deputy Premier told CTV News he will meet with transportation officials and both of Fort McMurray's MLAs to see if there could be ways for the process to speed up. Horner also responded to allegations stating the project needs more money, he said it doesn't – the timeline is mostly driven by environmental and terrain challenges.

[River Valley Green]

It sucks. No one wants to see people die. But what are you going to do? It's a challenging terrain.

I've heard of young men bragging about how fast they can get home from Fort Mac. These guys are idiots, and that's not the gov's fault. They need to double the law enforcement on that road.

[The_Cat]

Is there any way to have some kind of rescue station halfway between Fort McMurray and Wandering River? It could have fire, police and advanced life support ambulance, and perhaps a STARS landing pad.

[Blueline]

I believe that there is a first responders set up but that doesn't stop the results of high speed collisions.
danielle was very helpfull with her comments again

[sundance]

Bottomless bog??? Since when? Does it go through the earths core to China? Yes its probably deep but there are ways to either bridge, fill it with light materials (styrofoam), reinforce the soil with geotextiles, remove the organic materials, not necessarily cheap ways which are probably the factors which are taking its time.

But the telling story is this quote "Since 2006, about 33 kilometres of Highway 63 has been twinned, with another 36 kilometres set to be completed by the fall" that is 5.5 km/year (11.5 km/year by maybe this fall). This tells me in spite of what Mr. Horner or Ms. Redford say this is not exactly a high priority to the government especially when you consider how much of Anthony Henday or Stony Trail was built in far less time

[Sonic Death Monkey]

It's taken 15 years to build 70 km of the Anthony Henday, with another 3 years to build the remaining 5 km.

[sundance]

They could have built Anthony Henday in 3 years all at the same time though. No reason except money (billions), and labor availability costs why they couldn't.

Southeast Anthony Henday 2004-2007 (3 years) 11 km of road, essentially 22 km as it is divided.
Northwest Anthony Henday 2008-2011 (3 years, are you starting to see a pattern here?) 21 km (again can be doubled 42 km)

My point is if Highway 63 was a priority with the government they could have built far more than they have with the years of back patting they have given themselves.

[Sonic Death Monkey]

Perhaps they need to do the P3 thing in order to speed up Hwy 63

[North Guy66]

Originally Posted by sundance

This tells me in spite of what Mr. Horner or Ms. Redford say this is not exactly a high priority to the government especially when you consider how much of Anthony Henday or Stony Trail was built in far less time

More like "not exactly a high priority to the previous governments".

Who were the former premiers, finance ministers, and Wood-Buffalo MLA in the last 15 years? Klein, Stelmach, Ted Morton, Stockwell Day, Guy Boutilier are all to blame for not making 63 a priority.

Ralph Bucks could of sped up the construction. But hey, I was happy buying a new camera from the $400 Ralph sent me 10 years ago.

[dmuzika]

The Calgary Herald posted an article "Are tolls the fairest way to build new highways?", http://blogs.calgaryherald.com/2012/...new-highways/?, posing the question of Alberta following in the footsteps of BC in constructing toll highways. Consider that BC's policy on toll highways (excluding toll ferries) is that there must be a viable toll-free alternative and tolls would only be implimented if there was a significant increase in capacity (the entire policy is at http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/Publications...ling/index.htm). This applied to the former toll section of the Coquihalla Hwy between Meritt and Hope where Kamloops-Vancouver traffic could avoid the tolls by taking Hwy 1 through Cache Creek and the Fraser Canyon, while Meritt-Hope traffic could take Hwy 5A & 3 through Princeton which was formerly the only way to go.

My question is would a twinned Hwy 63 between Wandering River (north of Hwy 55) and Hwy 881 (south of Fort McMurray) be a prime candidate to be Alberta's answer to the Coquihalla Highway while Hwy 881 would act as the toll free alternative? Once the costs of twinning Hwy 63 are covered, the tolls could be removed.

Any thoughts?

[Edmonton PRT]

Originally Posted by North Guy66

More like "not exactly a high priority to the previous governments".

Turning your underewear inside out does not make them fresh again...

[SP59]

This should be a 50/50 partnership with the feds and the province. The amount of money sucked out of the oil sands through income taxes should have paid for this long ago.

[howie]

Originally Posted by sundance

Bottomless bog??? Since when? Does it go through the earths core to China? Yes its probably deep but there are ways to either bridge, fill it with light materials (styrofoam), reinforce the soil with geotextiles, remove the organic materials, not necessarily cheap ways which are probably the factors which are taking its time.

I don't get the "bottomless bog" argument, either. They've already built one half of a divided highway for the whole distance, haven't they? Been there for years. The "bottomless bog" was okay for that.

[The_Cat]

Is there a way to at least do the first stage (clearing the brush, addressing muskeg, while accounting for delicate issues like caribou season) over two or three years? Then construction could be done over a shorter time frame.

[sundance]

I read that at the current construction pace it will be twinned by about 2048, of course by then Edmonton could be 5 million and Ft McMurray might itself be 500,000.

[stinger11]

$540 Billion wealth fund? Do we not have the 3rd largest oil deposit on the planet? Check out Norways approach; what could we do with our potential? http://www.arcticgas.gov/norway%E2%8...as-development

[240GLT]

Originally Posted by howie

I don't get the "bottomless bog" argument, either. They've already built one half of a divided highway for the whole distance, haven't they? Been there for years. The "bottomless bog" was okay for that.

You've obviously never driven highway 63. I have, sometimes in a 1 tonne truck towing a flatdeck loaded down with equipment. Anyone who's workied in muskeg knows how difficult it can be. That highway that's "been there for years" is a bone rattling roller coaster for the last 100kms, thanks to the muskeg and heavy truck traffic.

[kkozoriz]

Originally Posted by stinger11

$540 Billion wealth fund? Do we not have the 3rd largest oil deposit on the planet? Check out Norways approach; what could we do with our potential? http://www.arcticgas.gov/norway%E2%8...as-development

Nah, Ralph Bucks and Dani Dollars make so much more sense....

[howie]

Originally Posted by 240GLT

You've obviously never driven highway 63. I have, sometimes in a 1 tonne truck towing a flatdeck loaded down with equipment. Anyone who's workied in muskeg knows how difficult it can be. That highway that's "been there for years" is a bone rattling roller coaster for the last 100kms, thanks to the muskeg and heavy truck traffic.

You're right, I've never driven Highway 63. However, that's not a prerequisite for having an opinion. I've driven on many roads that fit your description on other continents - some, very probably, a lot worse. This isn't the point, though. The argument is for twinning. A bone-rattling rollercoaster Highway 63 may well be, but at least with twinning, sudden veering off line and into the path of oncoming vehicles will be avoided.

There is already one road there, so I don't see the physical problem with adding a parallel road, say, 50 metres away?

[The_Cat]

Redford wants to make Highway 63 twinning a priority

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...003/story.html

[Alex.L]

I just hope that when they finally get it all twinned they put more law enforcement on it too. The thought of all the patch workers with a newfound sense of invincibility is an awfully scary thought.

[EveB]

Originally Posted by Ander

I just hope that when they finally get it all twinned they put more law enforcement on it too. The thought of all the patch workers with a newfound sense of invincibility is an awfully scary thought.

Yes, the way I read it, is there are two hazards on this highway. One is the risk of head-on collisions that the twinning will help solve.

But the bigger risk with the wetware issue of people being really proud of how quickly they can drive that route. Stupid risks creates stupid accidents on even the cleverest road design.

Eve

[Titanium48]

^ It won't stop the bozos who think its cool that they made it to Ft. McMurray in under 3 hours, but it would keep them out of the path of oncoming traffic when they try to pass when they shouldn't.

[lobbdogg]

Originally Posted by Titanium48

^ It won't stop the bozos who think its cool that they made it to Ft. McMurray in under 3 hours, but it would keep them out of the path of oncoming traffic when they try to pass when they shouldn't.

This. I'd be willing to bet some people who don't normally take big risks on most highways, end up doing so, because of the amount of traffic, and the somewhat lack of straight areas of the road that you can easily see what is coming up. Then factor in other things like weather, fatigue, and potentially impaired drivers.

There are those who will drive it like the indy 500 though, just for the sake of making the trip shorter.

[The_Cat]

I think one way of controlling the speed would be about five cameras spaced out every 50 km on Highway 63. Take a picture of all cars passing by at the checkpoints, then compare license plates at each checkpoint. If the time to travel 50 km is less than 25 minutes, the car or truck will be travelling at an average of over 120 km/h, good enough for a ticket.

[lobbdogg]

Originally Posted by The_Cat

I think one way of controlling the speed would be about five cameras spaced out every 50 km on Highway 63. Take a picture of all cars passing by at the checkpoints, then compare license plates at each checkpoint. If the time to travel 50 km is less than 25 minutes, the car or truck will be travelling at an average of over 120 km/h, good enough for a ticket.

So you're saying use photo radar for people with generally lots of money to blow?

When it comes to passing on a busy 2 lane highway, I can often get upwards of 140-150 km/h when passing, due to the fact that I see it more dangerous spending more time in the opposing lane, rather than just pulling out, passing, and get back into the proper lane. This is especially true when you have a winding, and hilly highway.

The real problem is the amount of traffic and the bad lines of sight. There will be some speeders, but like the speeders, you also have the slow drivers (which one is worse?) So you have drivers that are starting to pile up behind the slow moving vehicle, and then potentially poor decisions are made when attempting to pass. Given the highway, and the types of traffic that highway sees, its no wonder there is so many accidents.

I don't think simply saying that if everyone just drove 100 km/h, everyone would be safe. That just isn't reality. You get big trucks with large equipment on it, and they have to take it slower, so you end up with a pile of cars behind these trucks, doing sometimes 70 km/h up some of the hills, and I would say a lot of people will attempt to pass, rather than ride it out for the long trip to McMurray. People don't want to make that boring trip any longer than it needs to be, so risks are taken.

The road just simply isn't large enough to handle the traffic it sees anymore.

[Edmonton PRT]

Originally Posted by 240GLT

You've obviously never driven highway 63. I have, sometimes in a 1 tonne truck towing a flatdeck loaded down with equipment. Anyone who's workied in muskeg knows how difficult it can be. That highway that's "been there for years" is a bone rattling roller coaster for the last 100kms, thanks to the muskeg and heavy truck traffic.

Nothing that was not handled many times before. Hwy 63 exists, putting a second road beside it is no more of a technological feat than building the original decades before. We have countless roads accross muskeg all over Canada, from the AHD west of Edmonton, the Alaska Hwy, the Transcanada in Northern Ontario etc. That argument is a excuse for doing nothing while people die?

[240GLT]

^ not saying that at all, I am saying that it is not as simple as just laying down a parrallel sheet of asphalt and calling it a day, as some here suggest. Lots has changed since the original road was built (volume and weight of traffic) and the original road is under constant repair, so whever needs to be done to twin it will take some time and cost a lot of money. Yes of course lets get it done, but you can't say that it is a simple and easy fix.

You're right, I've never driven Highway 63. However, that's not a prerequisite for having an opinion

Sigh... and there in a nutshell is the problem with intrernet forums.... you can have an opinion even if you don't have a clue

[The_Cat]

One advantage of twinning, people won't be headed towards you at 200 km/h or greater.

Perhaps the province could target the most dangerous sections of highway first. Also, I'd like to see what the long-term plan is for Highway 28.

[RichardS]

Originally Posted by 240GLT

^ not saying that at all, I am saying that it is not as simple as just laying down a parrallel sheet of asphalt and calling it a day, as some here suggest. Lots has changed since the original road was built (volume and weight of traffic) and the original road is under constant repair, so whever needs to be done to twin it will take some time and cost a lot of money. Yes of course lets get it done, but you can't say that it is a simple and easy fix.

Agreed. This will be a significantly larger effort than the Henday or Stony Trail. I wish people would stop trivializing this work.

Originally Posted by lobbdogg

So you're saying use photo radar for people with generally lots of money to blow?

(...)

I don't think simply saying that if everyone just drove 100 km/h, everyone would be safe. That just isn't reality. You get big trucks with large equipment on it, and they have to take it slower, so you end up with a pile of cars behind these trucks, doing sometimes 70 km/h up some of the hills, and I would say a lot of people will attempt to pass, rather than ride it out for the long trip to McMurray. People don't want to make that boring trip any longer than it needs to be, so risks are taken.

The road just simply isn't large enough to handle the traffic it sees anymore.

You both have a point.

Yes, the road is beyond capacity. Yes, on an overcapacity two-lane, just driving the limit is not the only answer, but it is a good practice to enforce.

As for photo radar, I say hell yes. If these folks have the disposable income to pay the fines, ok. Thank you for contributing in excess to the coffers of the Highway 63 improvement fund...and yes...the revenues go to this. If you want to push your rig rocket so fast just to try to make your brass bull balls go horizontal, then pay the fare.

Oh, and add two more words...toll booths. If you want this done uber quick, there you go. Have the EZ tag solution implemented, oil companies can have employees expense this, contractors bury it in the rate base, and then it truly is a user pay system for those making the traffic the problem.


Meanwhile, a couple more flights wouldn't hurt.

[Sonic Death Monkey]

A toll booth only works if there's an alternative free route in place (e.g. Coquihalla vs Hwy 1 via Hell's Gate). Is Hwy 881 ok for that?

[dmuzika]

Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey

A toll booth only works if there's an alternative free route in place (e.g. Coquihalla vs Hwy 1 via Hell's Gate). Is Hwy 881 ok for that?

I would argue "yes", Hwy 881 would be an ok alternative route. One argument I've heard is that toll highways would increase traffic on parallel secondary highways, however when the toll Coquihalla Highway opened, it did reduce traffic on TCH 1 through the Fraser Canyon. How many people on these boards took the Coquihalla to Vancouver even if there was a toll? My guess would be most people paid it and took the superior highway.

I would also argue that the Fort McMurray-La Loche winter road desperately needs to be upgraded to an all-season, paved highway. The distance would only be approx 115 km and it would link to another southbound highway (SK Hwy 155) that could serve as an alternate route in the event of forest fires, etc. that could potentially close both Hwy 63 and Hwy 881.

[Titanium48]

^ The coquihalla was a new divided highway in an area which previously only had logging roads, so of course it reduced traffic on alternate routes. A tolled highway 63 would almost certainly increase traffic on 881. The question is by how much.

[Sonic Death Monkey]

Just brainstorming from the Coquihalla comparison....but maybe an entirely brand-new divided toll highway is an idea? Say, between the town of Athabasca and Fort Mac, which follows the Athabasca River?

[dmuzika]

Originally Posted by Titanium48

^ The coquihalla was a new divided highway in an area which previously only had logging roads, so of course it reduced traffic on alternate routes. A tolled highway 63 would almost certainly increase traffic on 881. The question is by how much.

The Coquihalla was built its alignment because Hwy 1 could not be widened through the Fraser Canyon, there was literally no room for the extra lanes. Hwy 63 does not have the same issue and could be twinned.

Has anyone taken Hwy 881 between Lac La Biche and Fort Mac? What's the road like now that it's paved?

[KC]

Interesting to note that in this latest horrific accident speed wasn't the cause, if anything, lack of speed (or acceleration) was. Also, people don't seem to understand how driving dynamics and psychology change when auto and small truck drivers are stuck following behind large trucks, motorhomes, etc. for long periods of time. Just the lack of forward visibility affects followers. So does the seemingly unnatural speed changes and any buffetting about by changing wind currents.

As gor the twining solution, personally, I've never understood how we can get away with extracting so much wealth from the Ft. mcMurray region, without some sort of protest movement to give some of it back. Alberta as a whole wouldn't put up with such treatment by Ottawa!

Anyway, it seemed odd that the twinning project just extended existing twinned highway.

- I would have twinned short predictable sections all the way up to serve a predictable passing locations. ...and put up a LOT of signs in to advertise the fact.

- I would have twinned the most unsafe sections as a priority.

- I would have at least added passing lanes to the most unsafe and notorious sections if for some reason a short twinned section wouldn't work without eating to much of the budget.




Note: with low oil prices it would seem to make sense to take advantage of them and their commensurate low labour and equipment costs - and higher availability. . Too bad "Intelligent" wasn't part of the "Alberta Advantage".


.

[KC]

Originally Posted by The_Cat

One advantage of twinning, people won't be headed towards you at 200 km/h or greater.

Perhaps the province could target the most dangerous sections of highway first. Also, I'd like to see what the long-term plan is for Highway 28.

Yes! However I'd guess that the 200 km/h situations are rare in terms of dangers. I'd guess that less obvious driver error, such as attempts to pass, drifting over the centre line, etc likely cause the most accidents. However speed one the part of oncoming vehicles makes a seemingly safe pass attempt extremely hazardous - and - worse - the perceived blame automatically falls on the one trying to pass!

[dmuzika]

Originally Posted by The_Cat

One advantage of twinning, people won't be headed towards you at 200 km/h or greater.

Perhaps the province could target the most dangerous sections of highway first. Also, I'd like to see what the long-term plan is for Highway 28.

Alberta Transportation - Edmonton & Area Highway Projects, http://www.transportation.alberta.ca...ontonarea.aspx

See "Hwy 28A/Hwy 28" for Edmonton-Gibbons
See "Hwy 28" for Gibbons-Hwy 63

(side note: I would love to see Hwy 28 cosigned as Hwy 28/63 and Hwy 28A renumbered as Hwy 63, makeing Hwy 63 a true Edmonton-Fort McMurray Highway)

Alberta Transportation - Northeastern Highway Projects, http://www.transportation.alberta.ca...northeast.aspx

See "Hwy 63" - there are three different links to the subsections of twinning Hwy 63

[East McCauley]

dmuzika alluded to this, but there is at present not one continuous highway between Edmonton and Fort McMurray. Until you make the final turn N 7 km east of Grassland, Highways 28A/28/63 were pieced together from a number of east/west and north/south highways and township roads. What results is a series of awkward 90 degree bends.

The ideal alignment for a true Edmonton-Ft Mac highway (from north of Gibbons until beyond Grassland) would be northeasterly. It would not only make the trip safer but also shorter. But it involves property acquisition for a new right of way in certain sections. Fields would have to be divided at weird angles complicating the operation of large farm equipment.

[Edmonton PRT]

Originally Posted by East McCauley

The ideal alignment for a true Edmonton-Ft Mac highway (from north of Gibbons until beyond Grassland) would be northeasterly. It would not only make the trip safer but also shorter. But it involves property acquisition for a new right of way in certain sections. Fields would have to be divided at weird angles complicating the operation of large farm equipment.

Funny, but the PC's had no problem in acquiring the lands for a EDM/Calgary HSR line but cannot acquire lands to make a decent alignment. I would have thought that a new highway along the Manning past the Gibbons turnoff along the north bank of the N.S. River between Redwater and Fort Sask. to Hwy 831 North would save a lot of time. Maybe we just have to wait for some MLA's to acquire lands on the projected route so they can profit from the ROW expropriation.

[East McCauley]

^It would likely be more cost-effective to use as much of the existing highway ROW as possible. In the places with 90 degree corners create a shorter alignment by having the road run NE rather than north, east and north again (a hypotenuse of the triangle so to speak).

What's the source for the claim that the province has acquired land for an Edm/Calgary HSR line? News to me.

[bulliver]

I'm not saying the highway doesn't need to be twinned, as it absolutely does, ASAP, however, the highway itself is not particularly challenging to drive. Pretty much every highway in BC is more twisty and mountainous, and they don't have near the crash/fatality rate as 63.

Short term...it would be nice to have more enforcement to try and curb these retard rig-pigs that speed excessively putting everyone else at risk. I've driven 63 many times, and the amount of morons that drive like total tools never ceases to astound me.

[Sonic Death Monkey]

But do any of the highways in BC have the same level of heavy equipment traffic that Hwy 63 has?

[RichardS]

Originally Posted by Titanium48

^ The coquihalla was a new divided highway in an area which previously only had logging roads, so of course it reduced traffic on alternate routes. A tolled highway 63 would almost certainly increase traffic on 881. The question is by how much.

Given how much further east 881 is, I wouldn't think it would be too drastic...plus, the toll would be an employment expense for many...so if you want to drive that much further to save $5 or $10...when the point is that you are in a hurry in the first place...

...but then...given the driving habits on 63...maybe I'm giving some too much credit?

Originally Posted by East McCauley

^It would likely be more cost-effective to use as much of the existing highway ROW as possible. In the places with 90 degree corners create a shorter alignment by having the road run NE rather than north, east and north again (a hypotenuse of the triangle so to speak).

What's the source for the claim that the province has acquired land for an Edm/Calgary HSR line? News to me.

I agree...make some of the more challenging sections a bit shorter. We are not trying to engineer an autobahn....

...as for getting HSR only ROW's...I don't think that has actually happened. ...if I recall correctly, the province is looking into a TUC similar to the Henday/Stony Trail to....well....have a Transportation Utility Corridor to run power lines, pipe lines, maybe a road...and maybe HST could use it. ...but then, I'm only going from memory on this one...

Originally Posted by bulliver

I'm not saying the highway doesn't need to be twinned, as it absolutely does, ASAP, however, the highway itself is not particularly challenging to drive. Pretty much every highway in BC is more twisty and mountainous, and they don't have near the crash/fatality rate as 63.

Short term...it would be nice to have more enforcement to try and curb these retard rig-pigs that speed excessively putting everyone else at risk. I've driven 63 many times, and the amount of morons that drive like total tools never ceases to astound me.

...this is key...HWY 63 is more about silly driving and impatience due to heavy loads than twinning. Increase all types of enforcement on 63 and 881. However, it does need twinning. I would even suggest that the Coq example also be applied now to HWY 1 between Banff gates to Kamloops and Jasper Gates to Kamloops for HWY 5/16. Those roads are nuts, but HWY 5 has the nature given route that looks easier to pave than the original Coq was...

[bulliver]

Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey

But do any of the highways in BC have the same level of heavy equipment traffic that Hwy 63 has?

No they don't but that is not the point.

Idiots will drive like idiots whether there are oversize loads or not, and they will drive like idiots whether the highway is twinned or not.

The problem is these guys who have been in the bush for 3 weeks and want to get back to the city to get drunk/laid/high/whatever. These are the guys bombing down the road doing 140, 150 and faster putting _everyone_ at risk. Twinned or not, the highway needs more enforcement and a greater police presence. And they need to start charging the real excessive speeders with dangerous driving rather than handing out a speeding ticket that takes these guys all of a day's labour to pay off.

[jagators63]

800 people took part in the rally.


http://www.globaltvedmonton.com/twin...155/story.html

[jagators63]

I believe that BC highway is more dangerous than hwy 63 because sometimes rocks is falling from the cliff and could hit cars or any kind of transportation.

[sundance]

Trans-Canada east of Golden where its not improved could be more dangerous than 63 but the very nature of that road means people won't attempt to do 160 km/h.

[jagators63]

public protest on hwy 63 will not going to help much but cost money. why can't people just slow down and use drive wisely on this hwy. there is lots of time to drive to and from Fort McMurray. People have to be patient when it comes to building twinning the hwy.

[soycd]

Skewed priorities:

The new Edmonton Remand Centre is on schedule to be completed later this year, but inmates will have to wait until April 2013 before they can call the largest jail in Canada their new home.

The overcrowding has been blamed for dozens of attacks and assaults inside the centre. Since 2000, there have been four homicides at the facility, and guards have long complained that overcrowding has made conditions increasingly volatile and dangerous.

The new $600-million remand centre is significantly larger than the current one downtown.

Link -> Edmonton Sun

The fiery crash Friday killed a Fort McMurray pastor, his wife and one of their two young sons. Travelling with them was a man and his pregnant wife. She died in the crash. He remains in hospital.

All three occupants of the second vehicle also died.

Forty-six people have died on Highway 63 since 2006.

Roughly 19 kilometres south of Fort McMurray has already been twinned, while the province hopes to have another 36-kilometre section north of Wandering River paved by fall 2013.

That leaves 185 kilometres to be twinned, a project expected to cost at least $1 billion.

Link -> Edmonton Journal

Yes, I realize there is provincial funding for the highway and federal funding for the remand, but are our priorities as a society just a bit mixed up when we put forth the safety of inmates before that of our public?

Seriously, who decides what gets spent, where? Uhmmm, the oilsands are contributing a heck of a lot more than prisoners in remand ever will and why do we cater to them? Is it because of the unions that the guards are members of? Is this how this gets built while we have poor access to the economic heart of Canada?

Something is not right.

[jagators63]

after 7 people were killed in the accident , Cops have decided to blitz on the hwy 63 and it turns out there is 663 drivers being ticketed. now you see there is no need for twinning the hwy 63 because of this.

http://www.edmontonsun.com/2012/05/0...-on-highway-63

[bulliver]

^ I can't tell if you are being sarcastic. It most certainly does need to be twinned, but it needs more enforcement as well.

[Edmonton PRT]

Originally Posted by jagators63

after 7 people were killed in the accident , Cops have decided to blitz on the hwy 63 and it turns out there is 663 drivers being ticketed. now you see there is no need for twinning the hwy 63 because of this.

http://www.edmontonsun.com/2012/05/0...-on-highway-63

What were the police doing BEFORE the accident?

[Sonic Death Monkey]

Hwy 63 requires twinning regardless of speed enforcement. The commercial and equipment traffic alone warrants it. But it also requires at least 1 or 2 full-service rest stops on the route.

[Alex.L]

Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT

What were the police doing BEFORE the accident?

They doubled their presence during the blitz, so they were still out there before. Still enforcing. Still handing out tickets. Double the enforcement means double the tickets.

Doubling the enforcement permanently costs money.

[Replacement]

Originally Posted by lobbdogg

So you're saying use photo radar for people with generally lots of money to blow?

When it comes to passing on a busy 2 lane highway, I can often get upwards of 140-150 km/h when passing, due to the fact that I see it more dangerous spending more time in the opposing lane, rather than just pulling out, passing, and get back into the proper lane. This is especially true when you have a winding, and hilly highway.

The real problem is the amount of traffic and the bad lines of sight. There will be some speeders, but like the speeders, you also have the slow drivers (which one is worse?) So you have drivers that are starting to pile up behind the slow moving vehicle, and then potentially poor decisions are made when attempting to pass. Given the highway, and the types of traffic that highway sees, its no wonder there is so many accidents.

I don't think simply saying that if everyone just drove 100 km/h, everyone would be safe. That just isn't reality. You get big trucks with large equipment on it, and they have to take it slower, so you end up with a pile of cars behind these trucks, doing sometimes 70 km/h up some of the hills, and I would say a lot of people will attempt to pass, rather than ride it out for the long trip to McMurray. People don't want to make that boring trip any longer than it needs to be, so risks are taken.

The road just simply isn't large enough to handle the traffic it sees anymore.

I would say that if you have to hit 140-150K to pass someone quickly the likelihood that the vehicle you are passing is already going at a pretty decent clip that didn't require passing..

As far as the rest the easier answer is passing lanes every 20k or so. I don't see why we need more than that.

[Replacement]

Originally Posted by KC

Interesting to note that in this latest horrific accident speed wasn't the cause, if anything, lack of speed (or acceleration) was. Also, people don't seem to understand how driving dynamics and psychology change when auto and small truck drivers are stuck following behind large trucks, motorhomes, etc. for long periods of time. Just the lack of forward visibility affects followers. So does the seemingly unnatural speed changes and any buffetting about by changing wind currents.


.

The psychology needs to change first and foremost. In most any other part of the globe stand still traffic that can go on for hours is a given that people experience on occassion. A person I guess could spend all of that time raging, gripping the steering wheel, and looking furiosly for passing options to attempt to kill themself and others or adjust their mindset. Its a traffic jam, not a mindblowing calamity. Enjoy the reduced pace, breathe a little, put some tunes on the radio.

That aside my own approach in those situations of miles of back up is to just stop somewhere half decent for awhile and leave the white knucklers fighting it out getting somewhere fast like their lives depended on it.

That said pull outs, rest stops, places of interest stops need to be considered as well as regular passing lanes.

2 laneing it all will only result in more speed, more calamity, and idiots flying right off of the roads in winter speed racing conditions...

[soycd]

Originally Posted by Replacement

The psychology needs to change first and foremost....

KC brought up some interesting points.

Also, City drivers have no clue how to highway drive. It's comparable to a young inexperienced driver.

Example 1: Slowing down and allowing distance between you and that slower-moving transport truck ahead of you. No use crawling up his butt when there are curves and double solids every where. Wait until that long stretch of road ahead beckons before you attempt to pass.

Example 2: Disregarding your own speed to everyone else's. I've seen it time and time again when the nut bar pulls out into the passing lane just when Speedy Gonzolas is just about to fly past. If you have Speedy creeping up quickly in the rear view don't pull out to pass that trasport you've been tailing for the last mile. Hold back and let Speedy go, then make your move. Also, if you're in the passing lane and again you see him in the rear view, get over into the driving lane.

Example 3: Passing lane is for passing. Driving lane is for driving. Do NOT drive in the passing lane. It's that whole, "slower traffic stays to the right".

There are more and more, the point is city driving and highway driving are not the same. I wish people would understand and make that distinction.

[Sonic Death Monkey]

^ I've witnessed the same bad driving habits from rural drivers. Let's quit generalizing here, shall we?

[lat]

Originally Posted by soycd

...City drivers have no clue how to highway drive...

OK Mr. Bickman...

[Replacement]

I don't see a problem with what Soycd raised. It may seem like a generalization but theres some important points there that contributes something and that are dynamic related. i.e. is a driver experienced in driving city or highway?

They are completely different things requiring different skills many more of which could be mentioned. As a defensive driver it is very evident to me when I see "city drivers" engaging in city driving style while on the highway. For instance riding bumper. Drives me batty when I see somebody riding a bumper while going 110km/hr. It connotes a complete misunderstanding of reaction times or stopping distances at that high speed.
By people that either don't care, don't comprehend, or have never witnessed how badly, how quickly, things can happen on a highway just around the bend..

Driver habits being explained either by stupidity or ignorance and take your pick.

[Alex.L]

^they probably shouldn't be explained by geography though. Bad drivers (and good drivers) come from and are driving to everywhere.

[Replacement]

Originally Posted by Ander

^they probably shouldn't be explained by geography though. Bad drivers (and good drivers) come from and are driving to everywhere.

Could be a question of dominant driver habits taking hold due to how much city vs highway driving like I cited in my example. Might even occur in an autopilot/subconscious type level with the person being either preooccupied, unaware, or ignorant of the risks involved.
I really think that some people might be tailgating on the highway because they are not really thinking actively about what they are doing. Because I'd like to think that peoples attitude to highway driving isn't "game of chicken". Although watching many people passing I often wonder if that is the mindset. While feeling sorry for any passengers or oncoming cars.

When I'm on a longhaul 2 lane stretch I don't mind being a safe distance behind a semi. Takes more time to get somewhere but less chance of a head on collision or hitting a deer or moose. My driving habit revealing what I think about others highway driving habits. Basically that I don't trust them.

Highway 5 between Blue River and Jasper has gotta be a vehicular homicide stretch if I've ever seen one on a weekend. More people than ever in a rush to risk their lives getting somewhere quicker.

[jagators63]

I believe that speeding or dangerous driving is the cause of all accidents on hwy 63. If drivers stick to speed limit that post on the hwy, it will save your life.

2 weeks ago where 7 people were killed on that hwy was speeding because one pick up truck was caught in a fire after after the impact, that led me to believe that the speeding is the true cause of an accident.

[Marcel Petrin]

That's a sweeping statement. The weather was likely at least a small factor in that specific accident, and surely factors in many others. Not to mention that even if both vehicles were traveling the legal limit, a head on collision would still likely have killed most of the occupants. Speed was a factor, but not the sole factor.

[Edmonton PRT]

Originally Posted by soycd

There are more and more, the point is city driving and highway driving are not the same. I wish people would understand and make that distinction.

I did not know there were two types of drivers licences required for Alberta drivers. News to me. I guess with your reasoniing, we should ban rural drivers from entering the cities.

[soycd]

Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT

I did not know there were two types of drivers licences required for Alberta drivers. News to me. I guess with your reasoniing, we should ban rural drivers from entering the cities.

It appears that many have misunderstood my comments, however Replacement gets it.

It's not where you are from, but rather it is the type of driving you do.

City drivers = ones that drive in the city. They may drive on a highway maybe a couple of times a year.

Highway drivers = those people that spend many hours a year on the long stretches of highways (both 4 lane and double lane).

The 4-lane between Edmonton and Calgary is full of city drivers (or, inexperienced highway drivers).

If you are unable to make this distinction chances are you are a city driver, and if that is indeed the case, then you should work on improving your driving skills (they may keep you alive).

[Edmonton PRT]

No, I do both, plus I have driven highways extensively including cross Canada trips, thousands of miles on gravel roads, and in large cities like Dallas, Montreal, Toronto, Los Angeles, New York, Atlanta, San Francisco and many others. I drive defensively and don't take risks.

Maybe you should take care with your assumptions and insinuations.

[Edmonton PRT]

Originally Posted by Replacement

I don't see a problem with what Soycd raised. It may seem like a generalization but theres some important points there that contributes something and that are dynamic related. i.e. is a driver experienced in driving city or highway?

They are completely different things requiring different skills many more of which could be mentioned. As a defensive driver it is very evident to me when I see "city drivers" engaging in city driving style while on the highway. For instance riding bumper. Drives me batty when I see somebody riding a bumper while going 110km/hr. It connotes a complete misunderstanding of reaction times or stopping distances at that high speed.
By people that either don't care, don't comprehend, or have never witnessed how badly, how quickly, things can happen on a highway just around the bend..

Driver habits being explained either by stupidity or ignorance and take your pick.

I see the same bad habits on highways, Whitemud, Yellowhead and even residential streets.

You have no way of knowing that the idiot who is tailgating or riding a bumper while going 110km/hr is a city driver or a country driver. You are just assuming. It could be a worker from Bon Accord who lived on a farm all his life and has driven the 63 dozens of times and is just in a rush, bored of the highway, half drunk or just plain stupid. Or they could be from Gander, or lived in Toronto for years or who knows? I have seen two idiot drivers pass on ridiculously icy roads in in a Camero and a pick up tailgating the other as they passed, only to end up in the ditch a kilometer down the road after hitting a fox. When both drivers got out, they both were wearing their EPS uniforms. Never assume you know who is driving like an idiot.

[howie]

The permutations of all this are endless. Just drive with a keen eye, common sense and good judgement, and take nothing for granted. In the end it's up to the individual.

[lat]

Originally Posted by howie

The permutations of all this are endless. Just drive with a keen eye, common sense and good judgement, and take nothing for granted. In the end it's up to the individual.

Unless someone tries to pass over a crest and you're coming the other way. Doesn't matter how diligent you are then.

[lobbdogg]

Originally Posted by jagators63

I believe that speeding or dangerous driving is the cause of all accidents on hwy 63. If drivers stick to speed limit that post on the hwy, it will save your life.

2 weeks ago where 7 people were killed on that hwy was speeding because one pick up truck was caught in a fire after after the impact, that led me to believe that the speeding is the true cause of an accident.

I wasn't aware that the only way a vehicle will catch on fire, is if it is caught in a head on collision, where one of the vehicles was speeding. So if I'm going 110 km/h and get in a head on collision, there will be a fire, simply cause I was doing 10 km/h over the limit?

Did it ever occur that it could be that, the vehicle attempting to pass, pulled out when it was unsafe, and the other vehicle didn't have a chance to brake, or simply get out of the way? Reports did say that there was poor visibility at the time due to weather.

Simply saying that everyone going the speed limit will solve all of highway 63's traffic problems is pretty narrow thinking. What about things like distracted driving, driver fatigue, poor weather, etc? I would argue that these factors are more likely to be the culprits of the problems on that highway, than just some people going faster than others.

Not trying to support people that do 140+, but I'd rather take my chances with someone doing 140+ and who is paying attention/not distracted, than someone doing the speed limit, and who is distracted, or tired, or their mind just isn't on the road.

[Edmonton PRT]

^ Agreed. All it takes on a two lane highway to have a head on collision is a distracted or tired driver that creeps 3 feet to the left.

[Edmonton PRT]

People are also forgetting other accidents with professional drivers on the road to Fort Mac



http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/02...-bus-rollover/



http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/...5cf70f&k=34674

[Replacement]

Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT

I see the same bad habits on highways, Whitemud, Yellowhead and even residential streets.

You have no way of knowing that the idiot who is tailgating or riding a bumper while going 110km/hr is a city driver or a country driver. You are just assuming. It could be a worker from Bon Accord who lived on a farm all his life and has driven the 63 dozens of times and is just in a rush, bored of the highway, half drunk or just plain stupid. Or they could be from Gander, or lived in Toronto for years or who knows? I have seen two idiot drivers pass on ridiculously icy roads in in a Camero and a pick up tailgating the other as they passed, only to end up in the ditch a kilometer down the road after hitting a fox. When both drivers got out, they both were wearing their EPS uniforms. Never assume you know who is driving like an idiot.

Fair comment. Obviously though when theres someone tailing me close behind my thought is never city driver/rural driver, its aggressive idiot that wants to cause an accident.
I was just backing Soycd as it seemed people jumped on him on a misinterpretation. I was just agreeing that habits could lead to certain driving tendencies. Although my statement was in retrospect wrong.

But heres a question. What posesses any person to tailgate me when I'm in the slow lane and theres several lanes of traffic open? When I see this I get the impression that some steroidal(tongue in cheek comment) control freak that wants to push my bumper expects that I should just get out of the way or go faster and can't be bothered changing lanes to get past me. This happens to me more than it should and I always drive speed limit(or a little over) or according to road conditions. I kind of find it funny, except then I realize I got a real nutcake behind me.

[Edmonton PRT]

I agree. Tailgating is both stupid and completely useless. People tailgate cube vans and trucks just a half car length behind at 80, 90 or more KPH where they cannot even see you and you cannot see around or have enough time to react if they brake. If idiots tailgate I start to weave in my lane like a race car driver warming his tires. They usually back off. If not, the four way flashers get turned on.

I once watched a guy tailgate a car with his big 4x4, trying to intimidate him by making ramming motions, by speeding up and slowing down and coming within a few feet of his bumper. I laughed my head off when the car turned on his lights of the ghost car. I wonder what size of ticket he got? Me, if I was the officer, after ripping up his license, I would have pulled out my Glock and shot out his four tires and a couple in his engine block.

[Medwards]

tailgaters sure back off quickly when you move on to the shoulder a bit and your tires start kicking back gravel/snow/slush...

[Sonic Death Monkey]

Global News - Driving Hwy 63
Fri, May 11 - It's called the "highway of Death" for a reason. Kendra Slugoski drives Hwy 63 with an experienced truck driver to find out just how dangerous the route to Fort McMurray can be.

http://www.globaltvedmonton.com/vide...p=1&s=dd#video

[jagators63]

Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey

Global News - Driving Hwy 63
Fri, May 11 - It's called the "highway of Death" for a reason. Kendra Slugoski drives Hwy 63 with an experienced truck driver to find out just how dangerous the route to Fort McMurray can be.

http://www.globaltvedmonton.com/vide...p=1&s=dd#video

I saw on the morning news yesterday about this and it does prove many cars , vans and pick up trucks were speeding along the hwy.

[Sonic Death Monkey]

^ You must be blind, not just deaf. How else can anyone miss in this video the long lines of slow-moving rigs hauling houses and large equipment? Or the trucker mentioning the lack of passing lanes for 100 km?

[lobbdogg]

Originally Posted by jagators63

I saw on the morning news yesterday about this and it does prove many cars , vans and pick up trucks were speeding along the hwy.

The only thing that video shows is that the road is too small for the volume & type of traffic it gets. You cannot determine how fast anyone was going in it to say everyone was speeding.

[Sonic Death Monkey]

Alberta Transportation - Hwy 63 page
http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/4942.htm

[The_Cat]

I think this picture explains a lot:

[The_Cat]

If possible, I think Alberta Transportation should shoot for the following goals:

(1) Clear the trees around Mariana lake by Fall 2012.

(2) Grade and pave around the cleared area, by 2013 if possible.

[jagators63]

Originally Posted by lobbdogg

The only thing that video shows is that the road is too small for the volume & type of traffic it gets. You cannot determine how fast anyone was going in it to say everyone was speeding.

How do you explain that the cops ticketed over 500 drivers for speeding on that hwy 63 ??

[Edmonton PRT]

Hwy 881 takes a full 2 hours longer. Not really a viable alternative

Are they doing any upgrades south of Grassland?

[Sonic Death Monkey]

^ Hwy 885 south of Grassland, I believe.

Having at least one rest stop between Grassland and Fort Mac c/w full-plumbing washrooms would help too, like the one on the QE2 south of the Wetaskiwin interchange.

[sundance]

Sadly while the government is building rest areas they don't think heat is necessary. There is no way that when its 40 below I'm going into one of their concrete pit toilets. A good example of this is the new one on Yellowhead between Vegreville and Elk Island. If you insulate the structures adequately and use metal fixtures the only vandalism you have to worry about is litter or graffiti.

Looking at the map I can see the government is trying to pat itself on the back saying how wonderful we are rather than actually do anything. They are praising themselves for clearing trees and paving the road, yes those steps are needed.
In the 240 km you have about 1/8th that will be twinned by the end of the year
7 passing lanes NB and SB that is about 30 km between passing lanes (not needed in the twinned area)

I think people would rather see the government build 2 mile sections of twinned roads spaced 10 miles apart rather than a 20 mile section twinned in one area.

[Edmonton PRT]

I think most people would like to see the entire highway twinned.

[sundance]

Indeed I do too, but Rome, the Great Wall of China, Anthony Henday or Highway 63 weren't build in one day it will take time. If you didn't have muskeg it would take a P3 probably 3 years to complete, adding muskeg into the process it could take 10 or more.

So while the process is ongoing you can build many short segments spaced apart or larger segments spaced further apart. This way people are less likely to pass when they know a passing lane or twinned section is only 5 miles away. If they know they have to wait 20 minutes behind somebody they will take more chances.

[Edmonton PRT]

Hwy 63 was a problem 15 years ago, the PC's just put the whole project on the backburner and by 2002 it was well known as the highway of death. I guess that billions of dollars of oilsands development just went unnoticed.

[Sonic Death Monkey]

The province's highest priority 10-15 years ago was Hwy 43 to Grande Prairie, which used to be the "Highway of Death" but was the primary route to the Mackenzie and Alaska Highways. But now that they're about done twinning Hwy 43, they could certainly now afford to throw more resources at Hwy 63 twinning.

[jagators63]

Last weekend RCMP and Alberta Sheriffs issued 336 tickets on Highway 63 and other roads between Thursday and Sunday.

there is another proof that twinning 63 is no real need for that.

http://metronews.ca/news/edmonton/22...on-highway-63/

[Medwards]

why is there no need for twinning the highway? Maybe we shouldn't maintain anymore either. I bet the police will still hand out tickets though.

[FlyFlyAway]

^Alright, I'll bite. (Playing devil's advocate, as I support twinning.) The primary reason not to twin is that daily volume south of Highway 881 is projected at just 8500 vehicles/day by 2018, factoring in all planned/projected regional development as of 2010. In 2008, it was measured at just 3500 vehicles/day. 2011 Automated counts (not the most reliable, but...) put peak volume at 511/hour; daily average at 4200. None of these counts justify twinning the highway. Other traditional factors, such as visibility, don't enhance the argument for twinning.

To put those in perspective, the numbers are 25% lower than the quietest stretches of Highway 1 (W of Lake Louise; Bassano, Sask Border). They are 80% lower than the quietest stretch of QE2 between Edmonton and Calgary, and 30% lower than the #2 north of Morinville. (Which, funny enough, AT is studying twinning.) Highway 43 has higher volumes. Even the Yellowhead at Jasper Park Gates has higher volume than 63 did. The drive into Stettler (2 lane) has similar volume. Only Highway 4 - and only right at the border - has lower volume than 63 among twinned highways in our province.

What those numbers don't reflect is the type of traffic (mix of commercial trucks to passenger vehicles), including the extreme number of oversized loads, the significant length of highway with very few services or rest areas to encourage vehicles to stop, the aggressive nature of many who treat the drive as a commute rather than rural highway travel, and the presumed very high frequency of 20+vehicles/minute (suggesting traffic backups).

Do those factors justify twinning? Probably not - passing lanes, rest stops w/ services, and increased traffic enforcement probably address these factors. Does the billions of provincial tax dollars from that region allow it to be twinned? Certainly. Does the lack of reasonable driving alternatives create a moral argument for twinning? I think so. Alberta twinned the Yellowhead long before it was necessary, mostly because we could. (Especially east of Vegreville - there's still no transportation requirement for it to be twinned today.) Don't see why we can't do it with Highway 63, especially with the obvious growth approaching that would justify twinning.

But you asked why there's no need to twin 63. The numbers - combined with alternative transportation options like the charter flights and buses from Edmonton and Calgary - suggest one argument.

[azzey]

^ Well put.

[sundance]

Note your peak volume of 511/hour, if we extrapolate that to a daily volume (which isn't reality) you arrive around 12,000 cars / day which is well over the 5,000 cars/day that AB Transportation uses to determine when a road needs to be twinned.

This highway doesn't get a uniform level of traffic, on Friday afternoons and evenings SB is extremely busy on Sundays NB is extremely busy, while on noon Tuesday it is a lot lighter.

A similar situation is Trans Canada between Banff and Calgary, for the most part the twinned sections are fine EXCEPT for Friday nights and Sunday nights where it is essentially a traffic jam for 100 km.

Should there be more police yes, should there be more passing lanes yes, and yes there should be more twinned sections. The province should work with Saskatchewan on getting the La Loche road built too, in the case of fires it might be the only road link available.

[240GLT]

Originally Posted by Medwards

tailgaters sure back off quickly when you move on to the shoulder a bit and your tires start kicking back gravel/snow/slush...

That was my favorite tactic on the way back to Calgary from the ski hill on Sunday afternoons.... the highway is packed and the jerk in the Audi/BMW/whatever is 3 feet off my back bumper...... enjoy a face full of gravel, dip$hit!