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Old 03-05-2012, 07:31 PM   #301
Vincent
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That "challenge" you feel? It's called Cognitive Dissonance:
Thanks for the diagnosis Dr. Freud.
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Old 03-05-2012, 07:40 PM   #302
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As far as your links go, sorry, those are not credible given the source. That group is well known for hoaxes. Peer reviewed or published original research please.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Globa...ound-in-Turkey

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Dr. Price, who is director of the Center for Judaic Studies at the conservative Liberty University in Lynchburg, Va., was the archaeologist on the Chinese-led team in 2008 when this alleged discovery was first made. He says he has “difficulties with a number of issues related to the evidence at hand.”

Price declined to elaborate. However, a leaked email from Price – which he confirms that he wrote – shows that he has reason to believe that a group of local Kurdish men trucked wood up to the mountain and staged an elaborate hoax for the Chinese team.
I mean really, Noah's Ark of all things?
There have been multiple claims to have found Noah's Ark. Not all of them can be correct obviously. Perhaps none of them are. Whether any of them are deliberate hoaxes or honest enthusiastic mistakes, I don't know. But you may note that, as I am not convinced of the reliability of the finds, I did not post any of the Noah's Ark evidence. You found that all on your own.

If however you believe that the photographs of the chariot wheels and Solomons columns and the beach surrounded by water and mountains and the narrow valley through which the Israelites and subsequently the Egyptians trekked are all faked, then you are welcome to go down to Egypt yourself and take a looksee. That is if you need to hold the horse bones in your hands to believe that those horse bones actually rest on the ocean floor.

Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
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Old 03-05-2012, 07:50 PM   #303
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Could someone pass the popcorn please.
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Old 03-05-2012, 11:28 PM   #304
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"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."-Stephen F Roberts
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Old 04-05-2012, 10:08 AM   #305
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None of those quotes condone slavery, they only reference slavery, which as I said was a common and acceptable practice at that time. If God wrote letters about our modern day society he would probably reference our class structure, our politics, our social norms and our sins, but none of that would equate to condonation. He would only use those references to things we understand in order to teach us how we should live.
See, that's the problem with the Bible: it's a product of its times and the men who wrote it. If it were truly a product of God's Hand or guidance, surely the all-loving and all-knowing God would have condemned the ownership of other human beings, regardless of what prevailing thought about it was. Wrong is wrong, is it not?

But listen, we're obviously not going to agree about any of this, so there's little point in continuing.
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Old 04-05-2012, 11:01 AM   #306
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Ideas on Radio One this week pertains to this discussion nicely. Particularly the episode featuring John Caputo. http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/
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Old 04-05-2012, 02:17 PM   #307
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Has anyone seen the documentary "The Exodus Decoded"? I found it very interesting.
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Old 04-05-2012, 08:03 PM   #308
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I haven't no, but it appears that it was quite heavily criticized: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exo...ed#Credibility
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Old 07-08-2012, 01:01 PM   #309
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Seems that the religious extremists figure the atheists and Wisconsinites are to blame for the murders at the Sikh temple. Apparently not the white supremists - nor the Nazis.



Pat Robertson Blames Atheists And Those Who Hate God For Wisconsin Temple Shooting
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1749532.html

"...people who are atheists, they hate God, they hate the expression of God, and they are angry at the world, angry with themselves, angry with society and they take it out on innocent people who are worshipping God..."

"Whether it's a Sikh temple, or a Baptist church, or a Catholic church, or a Muslim mosque – whatever it is – I just abhor this kind of violence, and it's the kind of thing that we should do something about," Robertson said on The 700 Club.


Westboro Baptist Church Gloats Over Wisconsin Temple Shooting

http://www.inquisitr.com/293790/west...mple-shooting/

"Though members did their usual victim-blaming for the attack, the “church” leader Fred Phelps took it a step further, saying the attack came because God was angry that the Westboro Baptist Church members were once treated poorly in Wisconsin." "


Sikh temple gunman Wade Michael Page was a "gentle and kind and loving" child, stepmom says

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_1...-stepmom-says/

"In a 2007 performance in South Carolina, the group played under a giant swastika flag emblazoned with the face of Adolph Hitler."






And from among the Huffington Post article's comments was a link to this article...

Atheists Supply Less Than 1% Of Prison Populations, While Christians Make -Up 75%.

http://current.com/community/9283193...make-up-75.htm

excerpt:

"It's suprising how many people say to me, "You're an Atheist? You must
have no conscience about commiting crime then." Nothing could be further
from the truth. In fact, if we examine the population of our prisons, we
see a very different picture:

In "The New Criminology", Max D. Schlapp and Edward E. Smith say that two
generations of statisticians found that the ratio of convicts without
religious training is about 1/10 of 1%. W. T. Root, professor of
psychology at the Univ. of Pittsburgh, examined 1,916 prisoners and said
"Indifference to religion, due to thought, strengthens character," adding
that Unitarians, Agnostics, Atheists and Free-Thinkers are absent from
penitentiariers or nearly so.

During 10 years in Sing-Sing, those executed for murder were 65% Catholics,
26% Protestants, 6% Hebrew, 2% Pagan, and less than 1/3 of 1% non-religious.

Steiner and Swancara surveyed Canadian prisons and found 1,294 Catholics,
435 Anglicans, 241 Methodists, 135 Baptists, and ..."

Last edited by KC; 07-08-2012 at 01:04 PM..
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Old 07-08-2012, 02:14 PM   #310
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Why is anyone surprised (or concerned) at the idiocy that regularly falls out of the mouth of Robertson and Westboro?
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Old 07-08-2012, 10:51 PM   #311
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^ I'm certainly not surprised, but I always have some concern because some other religious wacko will probably feed on these guys' words and they might just be the tipping point for said wacko going out on another shooting spree.
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Old 08-08-2012, 12:17 AM   #312
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Well, in the Phelps' case, we can only hope that the wacko who goes on a shooting spree heads directly for them. If you haven't read up a bit on their shenanigans over the years, it's kind of like a car crash. You just can't look away.
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Old 10-08-2012, 08:30 AM   #313
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It seems that, "You're either with us, or against us" - under any doctrine including atheism.

"The heathen, broadly speaking, were never persuaded, never convinced, never won by the appeal of the new doctrine; they were either transferred by their kings into the Church like so many cattle, or beaten down into submission after generations of resistance and massacre." (source: see below)


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-.../2884487/posts
Harold Eberle: "Christianity Unshackled: Are You A Truth Seeker,"*Destiny Image Publishers, 2009

"Stalin was responsible for about 20 million deaths and Mao Zedong's regime for approximately 70 million.*
Pol Pot, who led the Communist Party faction known as the Khmer Rouge, killed over 1.5 million of his own Cambodian people.6 Add to these numbers the atrocities committed by Soviet dictators like Lenin, Khrushchev, and Brezhnev.
Also add atheists like Fidel Castro and Kim Jong-il. All total, atheistic regimes have slaughtered more than 100 million people within the last 100 years. That averages to more than 1 million people per year. "
http://books.google.com/books?id=GpbM9RHYO5AC&pg=PT236


SPREAD BY THE SWORD?
Is holy war against Christians and Jews—“infidels”—a perversion of Islam? Here’s the evidence, from Islamic texts and history.
by Mark Hartwig, Ph.D.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Terro...the_sword.html

"... Historian Bernard Lewis notes:

"For almost a thousand years ... Europe was under constant threat. In the early centuries it was a double threat—not only of invasion and conquest, but also of conversion and assimilation. All but the easternmost provinces of the Islamic realm had been taken from Christian rulers, and the vast majority of the first Muslims west of Iran and Arabia were converts from Christianity. North Africa, Egypt, Syria, even Persian-ruled Iraq, had been Christian countries, in which Christianity was older and more deeply rooted than in most of Europe. Their loss was sorely felt and heightened the fear that a similar fate was in store for Europe.[1]"


"When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to [accept] Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. ... If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah’s help and fight them.[12]"


http://holysmoke.org/hs00/by-sword.htm
"The summary of seven hundred years of Christian expansion on northern Europe is that the work was mainly done by the sword, in the interests of kings and tyrants, who supported it, as against the resistance of their subjects, who saw in the Church an instrument for their subjection. Christianity, in short, was as truly a religion of the sword as Islam.
"The heathen, broadly speaking, were never persuaded, never convinced, never won by the appeal of the new doctrine; they were either transferred by their kings into the Church like so many cattle, or beaten down into submission after generations of resistance and massacre. The misery and the butchery wrought from first to last are unimaginable. If the Spanish conquest of Mexico and Peru, with their Church-based policy of suppressing heathenism, be added to the record, the total of evil becomes appalling: for the Spanish Priest Las Casas estimated the total destruction of Native life (in South America) at twelve millions.

"All this slaughter took place by way of expansion, and is exclusive of the further record of the slaughters wrought by the Church within its established field." --- Robertson - History of Christianity.

Last edited by KC; 10-08-2012 at 08:37 AM..
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Old 05-08-2013, 10:16 PM   #314
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Debating such philosophies is tough... I can't even comprehend our simplest physical reality let alone our spiritual reality.

More stars 'than grains of sand' - Telegraph

"There are 10 times more stars in the night sky than grains of sand in the world's deserts and beaches, scientists say.
Astronomers have worked out that there are 70 thousand million million million - or seven followed by 22 zeros - stars visible from the Earth through telescopes. The total is said to be the most accurate estimate yet of the number of stars."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...s-of-sand.html

Are there more grains of sand on Earth or stars in the sky? Scientists finally have an answer
It's an age-old inquiry, and it turns out the answer is as awe-inspiring as the question itself.
By Bryan Nelson Tue, Sep 25 2012 at 10:07 PM


http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/wil...tars-in-the-sk
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Old 12-08-2013, 11:18 AM   #315
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Where I am from; there are two religions: Catholicism, and Soccer. Both helped us lots to cope with poverty. Without Religion I would have become a ganster, drug dealer or another loser soccer star wannabe. The nuns of a sacred Hearts helped me and helped us. Soccer on the other hand was like your daily meal, you die if you do not play it.
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Old 12-08-2013, 12:22 PM   #316
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South America?
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Old 12-08-2013, 12:23 PM   #317
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Lol, who would have guessed? Faith and intelligence are negativley correlated. The smarter you are the more likely to be atheist, the more stupid you are, the more likely to be religious:

http://arstechnica.com/science/2013/...nce-and-faith/
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Old 12-08-2013, 09:00 PM   #318
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South America?
I'm guessing the green-and-white-hoops side of Glasgow.
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Old 13-08-2013, 12:35 AM   #319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
South America?
I'm guessing the green-and-white-hoops side of Glasgow.
I must admit, that was the first thing that crossed my mind too.
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Old 13-08-2013, 02:55 PM   #320
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Could be the green side of Edinburgh, too. "Sacred Hearts” wouldn't be coming from the mouth of a Hibs man, though. Other adjectives might apply.
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Old 13-08-2013, 04:35 PM   #321
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Could be the green side of Edinburgh, too. "Sacred Hearts” wouldn't be coming from the mouth of a Hibs man, though. Other adjectives might apply.
I think that's a fairly safe bet!
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Old 14-08-2013, 12:08 AM   #322
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I'm not so sure that Soccer_Addict is from Glasgow or Edinburgh, due to the use of the word "soccer".

Now, if he/she was called "Fitba_Addict".......
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Old 14-08-2013, 12:20 AM   #323
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stalin, pol pot, mao, the kim family, etc. etc., weren't killing people because they were atheists.. they were killing people because they were insane Psychopathic dictators with blood lust and had delusions of grandeur and wanted nothing other then complete and total deviotion to their belief systems which in and of itself is near religiious devotion having instilled themselves as gods to be worshiped, loved and feared... that's not atheism but totalitarian theism.. To call Stalin or any other dictator an atheist is to completely misunderstand the nature of their though processes and their Machiavellian desire to be gods.

An understanding of the psychology of dictators, dictatorships, and those oppressed via dictatorial regimes will show you that they aren't atheistic but highly highly theistic in their elements and are no different then being under the crushing rule of a highly militant fundamentalist religion..

Using them as an argument about atheism is just dumb..Because frankly none of them are. Their regimes aren't atheistic far from it... Just because you eliminate all traditional forms of religion doesn't mean that you haven't created your own religion.

The kim family are described as gods. Chairman Mao saved the Chinese people from slavery and is a saint. Marxism was the freeing of the people from the tyranny of the romanovs and stalin was the god like leader to be worshiped and revered for he protected the lands of the soviet union and gave them power. etc. etc. etc...

KC you are getting a picard face palm for this one..

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Old 14-08-2013, 02:06 AM   #324
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^ To infinity and beyond! Pondering the imponderable.

The whole debate gives me a buzz, so just decide how to figure out which position is correct, and make it so.

Though, as an agnostic looking at the scale of the universe, I'd have to say there is a God. Probability weighs in favour of it. We just haven't met it yet. So in other words, for now, whatever now is, being agnostic is the only intelligent choice in the matter.



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Old 14-08-2013, 02:14 AM   #325
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^ To infinity and beyond! Pondering the imponderable.

The whole debate gives me a buzz, so just decide how to figure out which position is correct, and make it so.
Indeed/+1. The buzz is great with this one..

But I still contend that Dictators view themselves as gods and as such warrant being classified as their own religion (discounting those that say they are muslim, christian or what have you but even then it's usually heavily perverted such that it no longer conforms to the original ideals of said theistic beliefs)...
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Old 14-08-2013, 07:25 AM   #326
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I'm not so sure that Soccer_Addict is from Glasgow or Edinburgh, due to the use of the word "soccer".

Now, if he/she was called "Fitba_Addict".......
True, but maybe he or she is just Canadianising 'football' just to avoid the usual confusion. I never used the word 'soccer' before coming here.
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Old 14-08-2013, 07:34 AM   #327
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^real football is played with an oval ball, it was invented when Richard Web Ellis picked it up and created a fast rugged game for strong athletic men and women.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugby_Football_Union

Soccer is an OK pasttime for those who are a bit weaker, just like religion.

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Old 14-08-2013, 08:08 AM   #328
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^real football is played with an oval ball, it was invented when Richard Web Ellis picked it up and created a fast rugged game for strong athletic men and women.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugby_Football_Union

Soccer is an OK pasttime for those who are a bit weaker, just like religion.
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Old 14-08-2013, 10:35 AM   #329
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Learn from the wisdom of John Cleese.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sD_8prYOxo
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Old 14-09-2013, 07:01 AM   #330
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Bertrand Russell's attempt to explain his thoughts...

"An atheist, like a Christian, holds that we can know whether or not there is a God. The Christian holds that we can know there is a God; the atheist, that we can know there is not. The Agnostic suspends judgment, saying that there are not sufficient grounds either for affirmation or for denial. At the same time, an Agnostic may hold that the existence of God, though not impossible, is very improbable; he may even hold it so improbable that it is not worth considering in practice. In that case, he is not far removed from atheism. His attitude may be that which a careful philosopher would have towards the gods of ancient Greece. If I were asked to prove that Zeus and Poseidon and Hera and the rest of the Olympians do not exist, I should be at a loss to find conclusive arguments. An Agnostic may think the Christian God as improbable as the Olympians; in that case, he is, for practical purposes, at one with the atheists."
What is an Agnostic? (1953).

"Many agnostics (including myself) are quite as doubtful of the body as they are of the soul, but this is a long story taking one into difficult metaphysics. Mind and matter alike, I should say, are only convenient symbol in discourse, not actually existing things."
What is an Agnostic? (1953).

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Bertrand_Russell
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Old 20-10-2013, 06:45 PM   #331
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Stumbled across some interesting archaeological evidence of a worldwide flood.

The world's highest lake is lake Titicaca which sits on the border of Bolivia and Peru in the Andes mountains. On the bottom of the lake there are ancient ruins as though it was once dry land. This in and of itself is not particularly compelling, but perhaps the millions of fossilized sea shells along the shore of this lake make it a little bit more interesting. Then add to that the fact that this lake is home to sea horses typically found only in salt water seas. How did they get there?

Is this proof of Noah's flood? Proof by definition leaves no room for other explanations, but it is supporting evidence at the very least. In fact, there are a number of submerged cities along coast lines in various parts of the world which suggest that those areas were once dry land. One could argue that it is a real possibility that some of these underwater cities "slid into the water" due to an earthquake or other seismic event, but lake Titicaca's sea horses and sea shells instead suggest not that the city came down into the water, but that the water came up to the city.
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Old 21-10-2013, 08:19 AM   #332
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Sea levels rise and fall, continents move around and also rise and fall. There is absolutely no compelling evidence that there was a worldwide flood event 4,000-6,000 years ago. There's plenty of evidence of large, regional floods because those kinds of events happen on a regular basis around the world. And when all you know of the world around you is a few dozen or hundred kilometers around you, then such an event may as well have been a worldwide flood for all you know. Damn near every major religion and culture has their own flood myth, because of that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_myth

Not to mention that worldwide sea levels increased significantly from about 20,000 years ago to 8,000 years ago due to the end of the last ice age and melting glaciers. So it's likely many cultures did experience floods, but at different times.

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Old 21-10-2013, 08:33 AM   #333
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I knew I count count on you for a response Marcel.

I find it somewhat amusing that you say there is evidence of large regional floods but no evidence of a worldwide flood. It's funny because the same evidence supports both theories, yet you dismiss one outright and fully support the other.

If this type of evidence does not support the Noah flood in your mind, then what type of evidence would?
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Old 21-10-2013, 08:45 AM   #334
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A comprehensive hypothesis that could convincingly explain not just the geology side of things, but also the biological side. How could you explain the massive biodiversity we see across the entire planet that is clearly supported by the fossil record and DNA studies, if the entire planet or even most of it was flooded at some point in the past several thousand years?

The answer is, you absolutely can't. And that's not even getting into the geological side of things. Where would all this water have come from? And gone to? The Earth is largely a closed system. How could sea levels rise thousands of feet so quickly, and then receded as quickly? It's just not physically possible. And if it did somehow happen, the evidence of it would be overwhelming, widespread, and painfully obvious. Instead we have people like you cherry picking completely unrelated pieces of evidence that are easily explained otherwise to try to support your ignorant, bronze age beliefs and acting all indignant when someone points at them and laughs.

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Old 21-10-2013, 09:02 AM   #335
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As far as Lake Titicaca goes, it's been a freshwater lake continuously for at least the past 370,000 years, ergo, it never flooded with salty sea water: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Titicaca

Quote:
The Lake Titicaca drilling project[20] recovered a 136-m-long drill core of sediments from the bottom of Lake Titicaca at a depth of 235 m and at a location just east of Isla del Sol. This core contains a continuous record of lake sedimentation and paleoenvironmental conditions for Lake Titicaca back to about 370,000 BP. For this period of time, Lake Titicaca was typically fresher and had higher lake levels during periods of expanded regional glaciation that corresponded to global glacial periods. During periods of reduced regional glaciation that corresponded to global interglacial periods, Lake Titicaca had typically low lake levels.
As far as the ruins go, they're not any more than 1,000-1,500 years old. So you're only off by about 4,000-5,000 years there: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2000/aug/24/bolivia

Quote:
While a submerged city has not been found, Mr Epis said the ruins appeared to be 1,000 to 1,500 years old. It thus predates the Incas and could point to the Tihuanaco people, who lived on Titicaca's shores before becoming part of the Incan empire.
That article also mentions that the ruins were about 60 feet deep. Lake Titicaca is at about 12,000 feet above sea level. What's more likely, that the level of the lake fluctuates a few dozen feet over thousands of years, or that the entire world was suddenly flooded by sea levels rising tens of thousands of feet globally in a matter of days?



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Originally Posted by Vincent
This in and of itself is not particularly compelling, but perhaps the millions of fossilized sea shells along the shore of this lake make it a little bit more interesting.
No, it really doesn't. We find fossilized sea shells on mountain tops. All that means is that at some point, tens or hundreds of millions of years ago, those mountain tops were below sea level, because of plate tectonics and continental drift.

But I see after a quick Google for "fossilized sea shells mountain tops" where you're getting this garbage from:

http://www.creationscience.com/onlin...ciences16.html

"Scientific creationism." Hilarious!
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Old 21-10-2013, 12:39 PM   #336
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I find it odd that so many (not all) Christians accept that Jesus used stories (parables) as important teaching tools, yet insist that everything else in the bible is strictly literal.

In other words, they rightfully understand that the messages behind the stories are more important than the literal stories themselves, but only when Jesus uses them.
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Old 21-10-2013, 01:20 PM   #337
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When Jesus used parables he made it clear that he was using stories to illustrate a point. However, you are correct in saying that there are many other examples of allegory in scripture. Noah's flood likely is not one of them, at least not to the extent that this event wiped out all of humanity other than Noah and his family because the whole point of the event was to destroy the evil that had overtaken man.

I could allow for the possibility that the flood covered only the known world as opposed to the entire world, but since scripture is the overriding source of information on this I can't ignore the following "I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish."

"All life under the heavens" implies a world wide flood unless there was no life (animal or otherwise) outside of Mesopotamia, which seems unlikely.
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Old 21-10-2013, 01:20 PM   #338
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But I see after a quick Google for "fossilized sea shells mountain tops" where you're getting this garbage from:

http://www.creationscience.com/onlin...ciences16.html

"Scientific creationism." Hilarious!
I hadn't actually seen that site before but thanks for the link! What exactly about it do you find "hilarious"?
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Old 21-10-2013, 01:31 PM   #339
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When Jesus used parables he made it clear that he was using stories to illustrate a point. However, you are correct in saying that there are many other examples of allegory in scripture.
How does one tell "allegory" from "history"?

That is a serious question, and a very important one.


I can accept everything in Genesis chapters 1-11 as allegory, but not as history. In fact, I think it's pretty clear that it is intended to be allegory - that it's fallacious to accept those stories as literal events (not that there aren't important messages that can be gleaned from the stories)
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Old 21-10-2013, 01:53 PM   #340
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How does one tell "allegory" from "history"?
There is no consencus on that. Even amongst Christians. In fact, there is heated debate. Thankfully it's not a salvation issue.
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Old 21-10-2013, 01:56 PM   #341
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Noah's flood likely is not one of them, at least not to the extent that this event wiped out all of humanity other than Noah and his family because the whole point of the event was to destroy the evil that had overtaken man.
We actually have reasonably good historical records of human migratory patterns over the past 100,000 years, derived from archaeological, genetic and linguistic evidence. How do you square such well supported scientific evidence with your belief that all of humanity descends directly from Noah, which has no scientific basis whatsoever?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_migration

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"All life under the heavens" implies a world wide flood unless there was no life (animal or otherwise) outside of Mesopotamia, which seems unlikely.
So fish, amphibians, cetaceans, algae, plankton, etc, etc, etc all don't count? Man is God ever a bad biologist.

But seriously though, you truly believe that Noah fit all of the different species of terrestrial plants and animals on his Ark? How do you account for the present biodiversity on our planet? Keep in mind that there are millions of different species of plants, animals, insects, bacteria, fungi, and so on. The vast majority of which Noah had no practical way of acquiring and saving given his geographic location. Did that all arise in the 5,000-6,000 years since the Flood?

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I hadn't actually seen that site before but thanks for the link! What exactly about it do you find "hilarious"?
The very basis of Creationism is outright rejection of science.

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Old 21-10-2013, 03:17 PM   #342
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So fish, amphibians, cetaceans, algae, plankton, etc, etc, etc all don't count? Man is God ever a bad biologist.
Fish were not required to board the ark. They can swim.

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But seriously though, you truly believe that Noah fit all of the different species of terrestrial plants and animals on his Ark? How do you account for the present biodiversity on our planet? Keep in mind that there are millions of different species of plants, animals, insects, bacteria, fungi, and so on. The vast majority of which Noah had no practical way of acquiring and saving given his geographic location. Did that all arise in the 5,000-6,000 years since the Flood?
The exact words of scripture actually states "Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive."

So it was the animals that move along the ground, and it was God who made the animals come to Noah. He didn't have to go out to find them.

I believe that Noah's ark saved all the animals that needed to be saved in order for us to have the biodiversity we have today.

I wasn't born yet so I can't say for certain how it all went down, but it's possible that insects survived on floating debris and carcasses. It's also possible that God recreated those insects after the flood.

Plants grow out of the ground so there was no need for them to be preserved during the flood. When the ground re-emerged, so did the plants. Kind of like what happens after a forest fire. Bacteria is everywhere, in everything and on everything so that's a non-issue as far as I'm concerned.

Noah wouldn't obviously have had "millions" of species on the Ark. That would be impossible. Birds, mammals and reptiles only were required. So with those three groups we're talking about thousands of different species identified today (maybe 25,000), but how many of those are hybrids or subspecies? If you take out the hybrids and subspecies how many animals are we left with? I'm not sure, but it would have to be a number that could fit on the ark.
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Old 21-10-2013, 04:04 PM   #343
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The very basis of Creationism is outright rejection of science.
Not necessarily.

I try to stay out of these arguments but many of us believe in creation, and evolution as God's tool. Read Dr. Francis Collins' The Language of God. Scientific discoveries only validate my beliefs.
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Old 21-10-2013, 04:05 PM   #344
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Fish were not required to board the ark. They can swim.
Ah, so the Bible was just contradicting itself when it said "I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish."

Fish are alive and under the heavens. Heck, cetaceans have the breath of life in them. God should probably have used an asteroid or something instead of a piddly flood, amirite?

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So it was the animals that move along the ground, and it was God who made the animals come to Noah. He didn't have to go out to find them.
Oh, okay, that totally explains how marsupials only extant on the Australian subcontinent managed to not only survive the flood, but make their way both to and from the Middle East across the ocean.

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I wasn't born yet so I can't say for certain how it all went down, but it's possible that insects survived on floating debris and carcasses. It's also possible that God recreated those insects after the flood.
So why did God bother with the Ark in the first place then? Seems like he made Noah do a lot of work for nothing if he was just going to "poof" all the insects back in to existence. Why not do the same for animals?

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Noah wouldn't obviously have had "millions" of species on the Ark. That would be impossible. Birds, mammals and reptiles only were required. So with those three groups we're talking about thousands of different species identified today (maybe 25,000), but how many of those are hybrids or subspecies? If you take out the hybrids and subspecies how many animals are we left with? I'm not sure, but it would have to be a number that could fit on the ark.
No, it doesn't "have to be" just because you or the Bible says so. There is no compelling evidence that there was a global flood in Biblical times. There is no compelling hypothesis that could explain either the flood itself, nor how the entire planet could so quickly repopulate with humans, let alone animals.

The entire thing is fairy tale dreamed up by bronze age man to explain as best they could the origins of man and Earth with the knowledge they had at the time. A few thousand years later, it's time to move on from beliefs that are so laughably silly on their face.

What you are claiming flies in the face of the mankind's accumulated knowledge from the past couple centuries in a multitude of unrelated scientific disciplines. It's silliness.
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Old 21-10-2013, 04:14 PM   #345
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Ah yes, mankind's accumulated knowledge. We are just so darn smart, aren't we?
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Old 21-10-2013, 04:14 PM   #346
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Not necessarily.

I try to stay out of these arguments but many of us believe in creation, and evolution as God's tool. Read Dr. Francis Collins' The Language of God. Scientific discoveries only validate my beliefs.
You mean the book where Collins rejects young earth creationism and intelligent design? Young earth creationism, which is clearly what is being espoused by Vincent and discussed here, is what I was referring to. Collins believes in "theistic evolution", which is not actually a scientific theory but a viewpoint or opinion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theistic_evolution

And it's a silly one, at that. God of the gaps, basically.

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Old 21-10-2013, 04:17 PM   #347
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Ah yes, mankind's accumulated knowledge. We are just so darn smart, aren't we?
Yes, we are. And getting smarter all the time!
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Old 21-10-2013, 04:17 PM   #348
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Creationism, yes. Young earth? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe the creation story spans over 6,000 years or 6,000,000 years. I don't really know. What I do know is that the "days" of creation can not be what we would consider days, since the sun was not set in the sky until the fourth "day".
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Old 21-10-2013, 05:41 PM   #349
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^how do you decide which stories to follow, and which to ignore? For example, you seem happy about the Noah story, but are you as comfortable with Jericho where god cheers on as his chosen people murder women and children in an ethnic cleansing? Is it any wonder christians felt justified in doing the same? If this god were a human we would charge with war crimes. IMO one must have very dubious morals to worship such.
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Old 21-10-2013, 07:34 PM   #350
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Yeah, like I said it's been awhile so I'm sure I'm forgetting a whole whack of horrific things God supposedly did in the Bible, but I'd have to say one of my favorites was always Passover:

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About midnight I will go throughout Egypt. Every firstborn in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn of the slave girl, who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well. There will be loud wailing throughout Egypt—worse than there has ever been or ever will be again.
God is a real jerk, apparently. The cows too?! Doesn't matter how good the parents were, because their ruler was mean to Moses God went through and killed everyone's first born. He's also apparently not too sophisticated because he'd pass over the homes with lamb's blood on the door. So much for omniscience, eh?

The Bible isn't even consistent with itself, let alone actual history. There's numerous, numerous inconsistencies that cannot be reconciled. A small and simple one is how exactly Judas died. Did he hang himself? Or did he fall down in a field he purchased with his bowels gushing out? Heck, it can't even get very basic things right, and it starts right off the bat in Genesis: http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...istencies.html

Did birds, animals, and trees come before or after Adam? Was God pleased with his Creation or not? How could an omniscient being make something that he was not pleased with?

But all those inconsistencies aside, we should rely on the Bible 2,500 or so years after it was first written to tell us exactly how our world came in to being, the history of mankind, and pretty much everything else. Makes complete sense to me!

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Old 21-10-2013, 07:35 PM   #351
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All this theologian philosophically inspired argument detract from what really is important.....NOW.....
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Old 21-10-2013, 07:43 PM   #352
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^unfortunately many things in religion are the "inspiration" for things that impact the "now", whether it be the oppression of women, marginalization of an ethnic group, bigotry against homosexuals, or a terrorist act somewhere in the world (be it by a government or a sect).
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Old 22-10-2013, 08:28 AM   #353
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^how do you decide which stories to follow, and which to ignore? For example, you seem happy about the Noah story, but are you as comfortable with Jericho where god cheers on as his chosen people murder women and children in an ethnic cleansing?
The Jericho story is an example of God's power and a reminder that it's better to be with him than against him.
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Old 22-10-2013, 08:44 AM   #354
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The Jericho story is an example of God's power and a reminder that it's better to be with him than against him.
So God is okay with slaughtering children?
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Old 22-10-2013, 08:54 AM   #355
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It's an illustration of one of my major problems with the Christian God. He is not a role model. His behaviour is often abhorrent and aimed at threatening us into glorifying him. Jesus offers some respite from this narrative but ultimately things come down to it being more important to tell God how great he is than being a decent person.
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Old 22-10-2013, 09:11 AM   #356
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^how do you decide which stories to follow, and which to ignore? For example, you seem happy about the Noah story, but are you as comfortable with Jericho where god cheers on as his chosen people murder women and children in an ethnic cleansing?
The Jericho story is an example of God's power and a reminder that it's better to be with him than against him.
That's a common theme throughout history. Even in our open western societies there are limits on how far the establishment will humour someone going against them. (Eg. McCarthyism ). In other parts of the world, whether one gets slaughtered by a God or a dictator the earthly result is the same - the motivations appear similar too.
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Old 22-10-2013, 11:51 AM   #357
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The Jericho story is an example of God's power and a reminder that it's better to be with him than against him.
By that logic, if there were tyrant ruling Canada, exterminating ethnic groups, it would be better to be for her than against her. Especially if she uses god as her justification, something rulers have often done, quite justifiably if one believes in the bible or similar. I'll choose a better moral path thanks, if that means eternal damnation, I'd rather be damned than support a God with such horrifically poor morals.
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Old 22-10-2013, 11:06 PM   #358
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^how do you decide which stories to follow, and which to ignore? For example, you seem happy about the Noah story, but are you as comfortable with Jericho where god cheers on as his chosen people murder women and children in an ethnic cleansing?
The King of Jericho had the opportunity to surrend to the Israelites as they were marching around the city for seven days. He chose not to and as a result the city and almost everyone in it were killed. One family in Jericho was spared because they offered sanctuary to the Israeli spies that snuck into the city prior to the city being besieged.

I don't think for a moment God was cheering as the citizens of Jericho were being killed. He heart was saddened that the King had made a decision that would cost his people their lives. The same feeling that he has when innocent people suffer and are killed every minute of every hour of every day but he does not overstep human free will to either make a choice to accept him as God or reject him. That way when we all are judged at some point down the road for our choices made here on earth no one can claim that someone else had an unfair advantage. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see many citizens of Jericho in heaven in addition the one family that was spared.

And while we are on the topic of innocent lives taken for a higher good are you not comfortable with the actions that were taken by the Allied forces in WWII in Europe and Japan that have given you the freedoms that you enjoy as a member of our society today?
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Old 23-10-2013, 09:10 AM   #359
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You guys make me laugh. You deride the morals of the almighty God for killing those who oppose him, but how many of you equally deride the morals of those who support and perform abortion? The lives lost there just don't get any more innocent than that.
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Old 23-10-2013, 01:39 PM   #360
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It's perfectly acceptable and excusable for God to murder?

Good to know.
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Old 23-10-2013, 01:48 PM   #361
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It's perfectly acceptable and excusable for our military to murder?

Good to know.
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Old 23-10-2013, 01:49 PM   #362
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Whoops, double post.
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Old 23-10-2013, 01:51 PM   #363
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It's perfectly acceptable and excusable for God to murder?

Good to know.
As you can see from Vincent's last post, so long as man does it or condones it, then God can too. Nice to see that God isn't held to a higher moral standard than man.

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It's perfectly acceptable and excusable for our military to murder?

Good to know.
I didn't know our military was supposed to be perfect, omniscient, all-knowing, and all-loving. Again, nice to see that God's moral standard is set no higher than imperfect man or his institutions.
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Old 23-10-2013, 01:56 PM   #364
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As you can see from Vincent's last post, so long as man does it or condones it, then God can too.
If that's what you think I said, go back and read it again.
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Old 23-10-2013, 01:56 PM   #365
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And while we are on the topic of innocent lives taken for a higher good are you not comfortable with the actions that were taken by the Allied forces in WWII in Europe and Japan that have given you the freedoms that you enjoy as a member of our society today?
I don't think you would find anyone with half a brain that would disagree that the allies did many morally horrific things during WWII. What's your point? As I said above, we know that man and his institutions are not perfect. God is supposed to be perfect.
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Old 23-10-2013, 02:14 PM   #366
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^ God is perfect.
the same as the leaders in our governments, the religious leaders-which are people- make mistakes also.
The hidden-real-issue is always monetary.
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Old 23-10-2013, 02:33 PM   #367
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It's perfectly acceptable and excusable for our military to murder?

Good to know.
Yes, because clearly God and the military are exactly the same thing.
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Old 23-10-2013, 04:35 PM   #368
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^ God is perfect.
Ever considered that God is not perfect, only omnipotent? Kind of like 'Q' on Star Trek. That would explain a lot.
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Old 23-10-2013, 07:33 PM   #369
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It's perfectly acceptable and excusable for God to murder?

Good to know.
How can you call this murder? Read the story again. The King of Jericho knew of Israel's presence in the land since they escaped Egypt through the Red Sea miracle 40 years prior. Instead of saying hey maybe we might want find out a little more about these people and their God, he chose to get his city ready for battle and the Israelites were happy to accommodate knowing that they had God on their side. Only the prostitute and her family in Jericho were spared as she was the only one with the boldness to question the "wisdom" of the king. God didn't care about her "rough" exterior it was what was on the inside that counted.
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Old 23-10-2013, 08:14 PM   #370
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And while we are on the topic of innocent lives taken for a higher good are you not comfortable with the actions that were taken by the Allied forces in WWII in Europe and Japan that have given you the freedoms that you enjoy as a member of our society today?
I don't think you would find anyone with half a brain that would disagree that the allies did many morally horrific things during WWII. What's your point? As I said above, we know that man and his institutions are not perfect. God is supposed to be perfect.
My point is that war is a terrible business but what was the option in Israel's case (or by extension the Allies case)? Sure God could have zapped the city of Jericho with a laser beam from the sky but he also wanted to involve the Israelites which is why he instructed them to march around the city for six days before the walls of Jericho fell and then they could make their attack. What do you think that did for their faith in him?

God is indeed perfect but chooses to work through imperfect people like you and me living in an imperfect world to carry out his perfect plan. What a relief that we don't have to be perfect to please him but instead just have an open heart that is willing to do what he asks of us.

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Old 24-10-2013, 07:51 AM   #371
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During the Passover, God himself slaughtered every first born child in Egypt. No matter how young, old, or innocent. There can be no justification for the murder of innocent children. Your "perfect" God is a murderous, vindictive, and jealous being if we are to believe the Bible. Hardly perfect.
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Old 24-10-2013, 09:55 AM   #372
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Man certainly made God in his own image... or was it the other way around?
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Old 24-10-2013, 11:22 AM   #373
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During the Passover, God himself slaughtered every first born child in Egypt. No matter how young, old, or innocent. There can be no justification for the murder of innocent children. Your "perfect" God is a murderous, vindictive, and jealous being if we are to believe the Bible. Hardly perfect.
You don't even realize how ludicrous that statement is. If God is real then you certainly don't have the right to question or judge anything he does. Without the giver of life you wouldn't even exist. If God is not real, as you suggest, then he didn't kill anybody.
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Old 24-10-2013, 11:33 AM   #374
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If God is real then you certainly don't have the right to question or judge anything he does.
Why not?

And don't quote a Bible passage to try and answer that question - the Bible is just a collection of books that were written and edited by other people (many sources completely ambiguous). The bible has very little meaning or authority to non-Christians.
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Old 24-10-2013, 11:36 AM   #375
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Think about it. If God is real then he created you and the entire universe in which you live! That means he makes the rules and he decides what's right and wrong. You'd have to have some kind of arrogance to think that you can judge the almighty God.
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Old 24-10-2013, 11:37 AM   #376
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If God is real then you certainly don't have the right to question or judge anything he does.
Since (by your own terms if you presume to be a Christian) you have free will, then you most certainly have the right to question anything about God at all.

Please don't confuse Christianity with neo-Nazism.

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Old 24-10-2013, 11:39 AM   #377
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If God is real then you certainly don't have the right to question or judge anything he does.
Since (by your own terms if you presume to be a Christian) you have free will, then you most certainly have the right to question anything about God at all.

Please don't confuse Christianity with neo-Nazism.
Having the ability to question and the right to question are two different things. Don't confuse free will with free rein.
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Old 24-10-2013, 11:43 AM   #378
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Vincent, you are a slave. That's the last I will say to you.
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Old 24-10-2013, 11:52 AM   #379
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On the contrary. I am free from sin, but you are still a slave to it.

Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
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Old 24-10-2013, 11:56 AM   #380
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Freed from sin, enslaved to God.

That's a lousy trade-off.
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Old 24-10-2013, 12:00 PM   #381
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Really? Sin leads to death, righteousness to life. Not sure how that's a bad trade.

Don't you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteousness.
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Old 24-10-2013, 12:07 PM   #382
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But there is no god. It's clear that religion was made up by people.
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Old 24-10-2013, 12:18 PM   #383
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Religion was indeed made up by people, but God is no religion. God is life, and if there is no God, as you claim, then you don't exist.

Your instincts know there is a God because your instincts were given to you by God, but your heart is drawn to evil, and evil draws you away from God.
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Old 24-10-2013, 12:34 PM   #384
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Heh. An individual exists so therefore a god or gods exist? Brilliant, Holmes.

That a deity (should it actually exist!) and its behaviour stand beyond question is a curious if not disturbing assertion.

The point at hand, however, is that some choose to believe in and unquestioningly follow gods capable of horrific acts as represented within the theological texts declaring said gods’ existences. Further discussion with such an individual regarding their chosen deity's morals is therefore moot. Further discussion regarding such an individual's rationalizations is not ... but really should be. (Hint, hint.)

Aseity is as aseity does.
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Old 24-10-2013, 12:47 PM   #385
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God is life
That's a pretty loose definition of "God".
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Old 24-10-2013, 12:50 PM   #386
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The point at hand, however, is that some choose to believe in and unquestioningly follow gods capable of horrific acts as represented within the theological texts declaring said gods’ existences.
Morals are man made. Defined and redefined over the ages. Discussing God's morals is indeed moot, but not for the reasons you think. Who can question the God who decides right from wrong?
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Old 24-10-2013, 12:57 PM   #387
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So to summarize, it's okay to slaughter innocent children because God said it is. What a guy!
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Old 24-10-2013, 01:07 PM   #388
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God decides who is innocent, not you. Our innocence is not determined by the lives we live just as our salvation is not earned through works. Innocence and salvation go hand in hand, and they are a gift from God, not something we have by default or earn through effort. The good news is, this gift is free to anyone who is willing to accept it. This is why we sing amazing grace.
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Old 24-10-2013, 01:27 PM   #389
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Interesting. For Vincent right is determined solely by power, and God can do whatever it pleases because it has all the power.

I'm glad there is zero evidence that this is actually the case as that universe would be one of despair, one where your existence and happiness were at the whim of a capricious creator. I'm also glad that Vincent's view does not dominate among the theists I know.
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Old 24-10-2013, 01:37 PM   #390
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Right is not determined by power. Right is determined by the one without whom there would be no right and wrong.
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Old 24-10-2013, 01:41 PM   #391
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Quote:
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Right is not determined by power. Right is determined by the one without whom there would be no right and wrong.
The one for whom there is no evidence of it's existence.
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Old 24-10-2013, 02:01 PM   #392
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I... uhhh... wow. I'm speechless.
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Old 24-10-2013, 04:53 PM   #393
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edTel
And while we are on the topic of innocent lives taken for a higher good are you not comfortable with the actions that were taken by the Allied forces in WWII in Europe and Japan that have given you the freedoms that you enjoy as a member of our society today?
I don't think you would find anyone with half a brain that would disagree that the allies did many morally horrific things during WWII. What's your point? As I said above, we know that man and his institutions are not perfect. God is supposed to be perfect.
If God exists, I wonder if a God has a God?

Anyway, "God is supposed to be perfect." Read this...

An Imperfect God - NYTimes.com
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com...fect-god/?_r=0
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Old 24-10-2013, 05:50 PM   #394
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Quote:
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If God exists, I wonder if a God has a God?
It's turtles all the way down.
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Old 24-10-2013, 06:43 PM   #395
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Old 24-10-2013, 07:35 PM   #396
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^No, that's not right, penguins eat ice-burgers for lunch. Now, if God was selling those burgers it would be a whole different matter.................
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Old 05-11-2013, 09:24 AM   #397
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Maybe someday we'll be able to expand the debate to include the Planet if the Penguins and their religion. Sorry, religions.

Just our galaxy... Times 200 billion to a trillion...



Milky Way Teeming With Billions Of Earth-Size Planets

"Astronomers using NASA data have calculated for the first time that in our galaxy alone, there are at least 8.8 billion stars with Earth-size planets in the habitable temperature zone."

"Kepler scientist Natalie Batalha said there is still more data to pore over before this can be considered a final figure.

There are about 200 billion stars in our galaxy,..."

"Put those together and that's probably 40 billion right-size, right-place planets, Marcy said."



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/1...nada&ir=Canada


How Many Galaxies Are There in the Universe? The Redder We Look, the More We See

"I wouldn’t be surprised to find that there are maybe even close to a trillion galaxies in the observable Universe"

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cr.../#.UnkfV7K9KK0

.

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Old 05-11-2013, 12:03 PM   #398
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And to think one bloke put all that together. Stretches credibility a bit, eh?
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Old 05-11-2013, 06:49 PM   #399
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And to think one bloke put all that together. Stretches credibility a bit, eh?
Maybe not.

Maybe if you come from another universe it's child's play.
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Old 06-11-2013, 03:51 PM   #400
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The question of whether or not there is a God is not as interesting as the question of why we have religion in the first place and whether or not we can have a moral society without them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEQuIDqY6Cc
Franz De Waal, The Atheist and the Bonobo
I'm about half way through the audio book version right now. Interesting book.
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