Making a family friendly downtown - article

[IanO]

Good read.


http://thecharrette.ca/2011/03/21/he...ndly-downtown/

[Chmilz]

Good article, and mirrors exactly what I've been arguing on C2E for some time now: people just don't want to raise kids in a 2 bedroom apt. My wife and I would love to live downtown, but since I work from home, a 850sq/ft 2bdrm would drive me insane. A 2-story condo with some common space on both levels would provide much needed separation for most people, and allow for "adult" space and "kid" space.

Of course, that's just the home part. As touched on in the article, once the kid is old enough to adventure on their own, there's not much in the way of places for them to go and have fun.

[Gemini]

This idea of families living 'downtown'. We could be using the wrong terminology here. I can see young singles living 'downtown' but families, not so much. What we should encourage is families living on the edges of downtown. When a person thinks of downtown they think of commerce, hustle and bustle, lots of traffic. They don't see places where kids can play or hang out, at least not right downtown. Any increased activity on the edges of a downtown core will translate into a better downtown proper. Change the ads to 'Great family living close to downtown'. Instead of 'Great family living in the downtown core'. People with kids can't get their heads around that. We are not New York.

[IanO]

"We are not New York."

No, but the principles are the same and not rocket science... plus most are ubiquitous to things we are want:

-green space
-open space
-safe and secure spaces
-variety of housing
-variety of neighbourhood amenities

[Medwards]

It depends on your perspective of downtown. In the media, downtown is often reported as the CBD and every neighbourhood that surrounds it, from The Quarters, North Edge, McCauley, Oliver... and others...

[Gemini]

My prespective of Edmonton's downtown is 97th. Street to 9th. Street and 104th Ave. to 99th. Ave (approx) the rest I would consider as 'the edges' of downtown.

[Chmilz]

Originally Posted by Gemini

This idea of families living 'downtown'. We could be using the wrong terminology here. I can see young singles living 'downtown' but families, not so much. What we should encourage is families living on the edges of downtown. When a person thinks of downtown they think of commerce, hustle and bustle, lots of traffic. They don't see places where kids can play or hang out, at least not right downtown. Any increased activity on the edges of a downtown core will translate into a better downtown proper. Change the ads to 'Great family living close to downtown'. Instead of 'Great family living in the downtown core'. People with kids can't get their heads around that. We are not New York.

Yeah, downtown should be reserved for pinstripe suit workaholics and homeless people. Outsiders are allowed in after dark to drink the beverages.

[Gemini]

^We are talking about families living downtown. Not your average office/construction/blue collar/homeless with money/ Joe/Jane having a beer after work or on the weekends. The way our downtown is at the moment it's not configured to accommodate kids say between the ages of 8-17. Let's face it, a land developer downtown would not build a playground on prime downtown land. Where is the profit in that for him/her. Now, building for families on the edges of downtown stands a far greater chance of being successful than catering to families right downtown. Of course, this all depends on your perspective of what the core of downtown is.

[moahunter]

Originally Posted by Chmilz

Yeah, downtown should be reserved for pinstripe suit workaholics and homeless people. Outsiders are allowed in after dark to drink the beverages.

There needs to be balance though. If parents want to bring kids downtown to live, that's fine by me. But, I don't want them then complaining that the bars shouldn't stay open, or that there is too much night life, or that there is too much noise from the party in the condo/appartment next door, or that .... I don't want downtown sanitized to the point where adults can't have an adult playground.

[IanO]

Originally Posted by Gemini

^We are talking about families living downtown. Not your average office/construction/blue collar/homeless with money/ Joe/Jane having a beer after work or on the weekends. The way our downtown is at the moment it's not configured to accommodate kids say between the ages of 8-17. Let's face it, a land developer downtown would not build a playground on prime downtown land. Where is the profit in that for him/her. Now, building for families on the edges of downtown stands a far greater chance of being successful than catering to families right downtown. Of course, this all depends on your perspective of what the core of downtown is.

Uh... Grandin has this. We, downtown Edmonton community league, are working on a climbable art piece to be included in the new park we are working on at 105st and 102ave. Keep an open mind with what is there now and what could serve various family needs in a non traditional way.

[Gemini]

A climbable art piece is hardly something a 12 - 17 year old will want to climb. That age group needs outdoor basketball courts, soccer fields, outdoor/indoor arena etc: Even kids of climbing age will tire of one play area in a park. What's a non traditional way?. You tell me.

[IanO]

Do 12 to 17 yr old climb on playgrounds.... Or climbing walls in gyms. The monkeys in vancouver are climbed on ball people of all ages and love them.

Basketball courtsare in grandin and oliver and i hope to get court downtown. Fields... You mean like in Oliver, rossdale, river dale.

Outdoor skating at city hall, river dale, Vic park, hawr, outdoor hockey in river dale, queen mary, west mount.

[IanO]

Our mid rise condo has a few kids under 12 and it used to have a couple of teens.

Housing options are more critical as is affordability and schools.

Amenities are quite abound but a few more neighborhood parks and courtyard play/open areas are needed.

[Gemini]

Originally Posted by NanO

Do 12 to 17 yr old climb on playgrounds.... Or climbing walls in gyms. The monkeys in vancouver are climbed on ball people of all ages and love them.

Basketball courts are in grandin and oliver and i hope to get court downtown. Fields... You mean like in Oliver, rossdale, river dale.

Outdoor skating at city hall, river dale, Vic park, hawr, outdoor hockey in river dale, queen mary, west mount.

I must admit you do do your homework. Areas you have mentioned I would consider on the edge of downtown Oliver, Rossdale, etc:
Your thread is about making downtown family friendly. My stance is families find living downtown unfriendly. From a point of view of the city trying to get people to live downtown they are using the wrong language. They should encourage people to live on the edge of downtown. Which is most of the areas you have mentioned above. They should be marketing it as 'Come live close to downtown' instead of saying to families 'Come live downtown'. Close to downtown for families sounds more appealing.

[IanO]

As mentioned, those areas are "downtown" with respect to the topic, semantics.

[Transplanted_Edm]

Maybe we should replace "downtown" in this discussion with "urban".

There are lots of urban - yet residential - neighbourhoods in other cities. They provide parks, recreation facilities (indoor and outdoor), libraries, cultural facilities, restaurants, shopping, access to public transportation...in other words things that families need and use. I think that's what we're discussing here.

[IanO]

Central, downtown, urban... Yup.

[Gemini]

Originally Posted by IanO

As mentioned, those areas are "downtown" with respect to the topic, semantics.

You could ask 'What's in a name'. When you say 'downtown' most people think of heavy traffic, traffic lights, blocked intersections, no trees or grass in fact, a concrete jungle is what most people think. Not to appealing to family living. Now you mentioned neighborhoods like Oliver, Grandin, Rossdale, Riverdale etc: All perfectly good names so why are they lumped under the generic moniker of 'downtown'. It sounds far more appealing for families if someone says 'Live in the urban setting of Rossdale' rather than say 'Live Downtown'. Downtown should be reserved for the business sector, shops, offices. Call the hoods around it what they are actually named.

[grish]

^ you mean IanO

[Gemini]

Originally Posted by grish

^ you mean IanO

Yes O.

[Gemini]

Originally Posted by grish

so, perhaps you should change the type-o.

I did O.

[IanO]

Originally Posted by Gemini

You could ask 'What's in a name'. When you say 'downtown' most people think of heavy traffic, traffic lights, blocked intersections, no trees or grass in fact, a concrete jungle is what most people think. Not to appealing to family living. Now you mentioned neighborhoods like Oliver, Grandin, Rossdale, Riverdale etc: All perfectly good names so why are they lumped under the generic moniker of 'downtown'. It sounds far more appealing for families if someone says 'Live in the urban setting of Rossdale' rather than say 'Live Downtown'. Downtown should be reserved for the business sector, shops, offices. Call the hoods around it what they are actually named.

I live 'right downtown' with a well used family park across the street, spectacular walking/playing grounds at the leg 3 blocks away, 2 day cares nearby, mature trees, wide sidewalks with benches. There are quite a surprising number of young kids and mothers out, many obviously newer residents of Canada which may explain their familiarity with urban + family space. Can we do more to make downtown and central areas more family friendly, hell yes, but I think we truly overlook the ability to raise a family in the core. I plan to stay downtown.

Downtown should not be 'reserved' for anything specific or traditionally found there necessarily.

[Chmilz]

It's not like there needs to be a football field right on Jasper. I grew up in a suburb, and my closest park was 5 or 6 blocks away, and it only had 4 trees on it, and I climbed those 4 trees a million times. Kids aren't morons, they'll find fun in unlikely places, and will travel to get to the fun.

If I was a kid living in the Icon, I'd have no problem meeting my buddies downstairs, hopping on our bikes or skateboards, and making our way to one of the larger parks in Oliver to play some football, climb stuff, or beat the heck out of each other for fun, hit the Macs for a slurpee, and make it home safe and sound.

To be family friendly, I think the city needs to ensure that road crossings are properly lit, traffic is managed well, they keep drunks and aggressive bums off the streets, establish full-scale community policing to keep all citizens (especially children) safe, and keep the whole downtown clean so curious kids aren't picking up needles and whatnot.

Also, letting kids ride bicycles and skate on sidewalks would go a long way. As it is now, fun is banned downtown unless you're over 18 and in a licensed establishment.

[IanO]

^exactly.

I also think we have this wonderfully propagated xenophobic response to downtown strangers being worse than a neighbor in riverbend and that unless we drive our kids around at halloween, they will be exposed to nothing bad things.

Growing up with 2 parents working I recall being out on my bike or taking the bus all over from the end of elementary/beg of jr. high on.

While visiting NYC/Brooklyn, I was amazed at how many kids there were on the subways alone or with a friend. Awesome.

[ajs]

Originally Posted by moahunter

There needs to be balance though. If parents want to bring kids downtown to live, that's fine by me. But, I don't want them then complaining that the bars shouldn't stay open, or that there is too much night life, or that there is too much noise from the party in the condo/appartment next door, or that .... I don't want downtown sanitized to the point where adults can't have an adult playground.

The most recently memorable disputes over club noise/hours were instigated by downtown hotels not families.

[Gemini]

Originally Posted by Transplanted Edm

Maybe we should replace "downtown" in this discussion with "urban".

There are lots of urban - yet residential - neighbourhoods in other cities. They provide parks, recreation facilities (indoor and outdoor), libraries, cultural facilities, restaurants, shopping, access to public transportation...in other words things that families need and use. I think that's what we're discussing here.

Call the core downtown 'downtown'. Call the neighborhoods around the core their actual names. Adding 'urban' does have a very up market ring to it, as in Urban Rossdale, Urban Oliver.

[IanO]

^or unneeded and superfluous. Call it Oliver.

[Gemini]

^That's what I have been saying, call Oliver 'Oliver' not the generic downtown. Call the areas around downtown their actual names.

[IanO]

^concur, but for many many people they will it downtown. Trust me, it is annoying, I harp when there is a murder on Jasper and 89st or 107ave and 113 and they report it as downtown.

[craiger R]

Originally Posted by IanO

^concur, but for many many people they will it downtown. Trust me, it is annoying, I harp when there is a murder on Jasper and 89st or 107ave and 113 and they report it as downtown.

your still dealing with the murder and criminal activity coming from the downtown.

it's alright for you to make the downtown a party spot of coke , meth and cause disterbance to your neighbors but you complain about what color we paint our fence.

Admin sais it best when most here are hypocrits.

[IanO]

"coming from downtown" hey... Judging from your recent post, you ave an unfortunate understanding of more than a few things.

[craiger R]

Originally Posted by IanO

"coming from downtown" hey... Judging from your recent post, you ave an unfortunate understanding of more than a few things.

At 18 I thought moving to the big city would be a good thing so I got the white collar job living downtown in the highlands.

and you know what I never met so many arsholes, chaos, problems in my life and never again,

Don't wish that missery on anyone and why I support the country life

[IanO]

At 24 I thought moving to the big city would be a good thing so I got the white collar job living downtown in McKay Avenue.

and you know what I never met so many interesting people, vibrancy!, problems in my life deciding where to eat, go out, and have fun, and never again cause I wont be leaving.

Don't wish that awesomeness on anyone who cant embrace diversity and why I support the urban life.

[craiger R]

Originally Posted by IanO

At 24 I thought moving to the big city would be a good thing so I got the white collar job living downtown in McKay Avenue.

and you know what I never met so many interesting people, vibrancy!, problems in my life deciding where to eat, go out, and have fun, and never again cause I wont be leaving.

Don't wish that awesomeness on anyone who cant embrace diversity and why I support the urban life.

Don't take offence Ian when i say,

I'm sure you dont have kids,

[IanO]

I don't, but plan to one day and like many, will choose to stay downtown, oliver, grandin, or the like.

Travel a little, see how many urban families there are.

[highlander]

Originally Posted by craiger R

At 18 I thought moving to the big city would be a good thing so I got the white collar job living downtown in the highlands.

and you know what I never met so many arsholes, chaos, problems in my life and never again,

Don't wish that missery on anyone and why I support the country life

Highlands Isn't downtown. not even close.

[Cal76]

Plenty of families can easily live in a townhouse/ rowhouse/ 3BR condo in Oliver, Grandin, Westmount or Queen Mary Park. Not the downtown 'core', but with all its attractions and (a few) of its vices. For those who want a bit more suburban feel, try Spruce Ave or Prince Rupert. Downtown doesn't just mean bachelor pads and bums

[Decade]

Downtown doesn't have the right condos for families (unfortunately). I am willing to live in a 2 bedroom plus den with a family... even if it is only 900 sq ft. However, the last 2 bed plus den I looked at downtown cost 598 000.... out of range if I want to start a family and have one parent stay at home.

Here is what we need to make downtown more family-friendly (and Oliver/Glenora/Grandin even if they are already on their way in that direction):
- Cool playgrounds. Not the boring suburban ones... playgrounds that are art pieces.
e.g. Playground One (Not my taste but the idea works), Playgrounds 2-4
- Safe Playgrounds: In my travels I have seen many playgrounds that are fenced with a sign saying "only guardians and children under 13 may play here". The age would change, but basically it gave cops a reason to kick drunks and smoking teenagers out of the playgrounds. This would be great in some of downtowns rougher parts
- Condos that aren't bigger, just planned better for families: 900 sqft can fit a 3 person family, and 1100 can easily fit a four person family. The problem is that they won't fit into a 2 bedroom. We need 2beds plus den or a 3 bedroom.
- Affordable Housing: This is something that I struggle with. I hate the idea of affordable housing in one sense (I have seen so many areas where affordable housing has ended up meaning "houses that look like crap because people had just enough money to buy but not enough money to keep it looking decent") but let's face it: most new parents can't afford a half a million dollar house when they are about to have kids or have a newborn. Mat leave salary isn't usually that great.
- Larger Police Presence: Cops everywhere! Not in a weird Big Brother way, but in a community way. I know I am not explaining myself well, but I love it when I walk down a downtown street and a police officer says Hi, or asks about my dog or something. I know this isn't part of the "job" but it makes me feel safer to both see them and to make them seem like friends of the community rather than some kind of military presence.
- Guarantees for our Schools: While we do have some good downtown(ish) schools (Grandin Elementary, St. Catherine's, Mother Theresa, Glenora, Riverdale, Vic, Oliver) it can be worrisome to think that those schools may be closed. The whole Riverdale-kindergarten debacle is a prime example.
- Pet-Friendliness: This a minor one but I do think it would help. One of the reasons I am resistant to buying a downtown condo (even though I presently rent one) are all the pet-restrictions and the lack of off-leash areas that are fenced off for dogs. I have a dog now, but most condos don't allow large dogs. I want the big family dog when I have kids. I also want to be able to go to a fun fenced off dog area... the river valley is fantastic, but some breeds have too strong of prey instinct to be safely let off leash in that area (too many bunnies!).

A lot of things that would make downtown more family-friendly would make it more fun for adults too. Safety would make the nightlife a lot less sketchy and a lot more fun... while I am not into clubbing I would love to be able to sit on a patio in mid-summer at midnight sipping some wine... without a pandhandler bugging me for change. Interesting playgrounds and park areas are fun for everyone.... look at the leg grounds or the City Hall wading pool!

[NGlenora]

My spouse and I were recently thinking about moving back to the Oliver area, but we just couldn't get over the fact that we just wouldn't want our son to go to the park alone. We lived close to Kitchener park sadly before they upgraded the spray area (which would have been awesome for him). It may be an irrational fear, but in our circle we're the closest ones to have wanted to raise our children in a "urban" environment, everyone else wants to go to the edges of the city. Also the fact that there aren't many 3 bedrooms or what I would say is affordable townhouses in Oliver makes it tough too, though I understand my affordable is not the same other peoples.

[IanO]

In oliver/grand in you sure could, depending on his age I suppose.

As for affordability, keep in mind what value you place on things, what one less car might mean, and what time you save being where you are. Simply put, you cut down on size to retain affordability.

[IanO]

Vancouver's guidelines for comparison:

This is from the False Creek North ODP

Quote:
Twenty-five percent of the total number of dwelling units shall be suitable for families with small children, as defined in Guidelines for High Density Housing for Families with Children adopted by City Council May 30, 1989.
From the Coal Harbour ODP
Quote:
Twenty-five percent of the total number of the basic residential allowance of dwelling units shall be suitable for families with small children, as defined in Guidelines for High Density Housing
for Families with Children adopted by City Council May 30, 1989, and as amended from time to time.

Even as well back as 74 the city's False creek ODP
Quote:
(d) Household Mix – The following household types should be provided as basin-wide objective:
Families with children 25 percent
Couples (young and mature) 25 percent
Elderly 15 percent
Singles 35 percent
The SEFC ODP required 25%,35% and even 50%.
Quote:
(i) with respect to families, 35% of the residential units in areas 1A, 2A, 3A, and 3B, and 25% of the residential units in areas 1B, 2B, and 3C are to be suitable for families with small children, in accordance with the High-Density Housing for Families with Children Guidelines adopted by Council on March 24, 1992;
(j) with respect to the affordable housing units in areas 1A, 2A, and 3A, priority is to be on family housing, with 50% of the non-market units to be suitable for families with small children, and integration of the units into each residential area;
(k) 25% of the market housing in areas 1A, 2A, and 3A, and 25% of the modest market housing in areas 1A and 3A, are to be suitable for families with small children; and

[ajs]

Not specifically family friendly related but in terms of density/affordability this article is full of thoughtful information: http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2012/03/20/Convenience_City/

[Hilman]

Three bedroom apartments coming?
4/26/2012


The city will explore an incentive program that would see developers get a grant to build some high rise three bedroom apartments.

It's to give larger families a housing option they don't have now, because three bedroom homes are too expensive.

"It's not rocket science to believe we can come up with some inducement plan for that third bedroom," said Mayor Stephen Mandel while asking for a report during an executive committee.

"It might encourage people to develop it. If we do the first 300 or 200 or 100 or 50, but in restricted areas so we'd have to do it in high rises downtown; obviously on the airport lands, we don't want to start doing it every place because then it defeats the purpose."

Councillor Bryan Anderson wants to take it one step further, by creating residential housing on top of commercial properties.

In a 'What if?' moment, Anderson wonders what would have happened if there was housing at South Edmonton Common?

"Even if all of the owners and all of the tennants cooperated to build 'employee suitable' I think it would have been amazing instead of having people standing out trying to find rides when their place of business shut down to get home, we could have had a variety of different kinds of needs that would have made mixed use of residential above commercial very viable in this city."

Anderson says the Currents at Windermere in Edmonton's south west once considered something like that, but isn't pursuing it right now.

http://www.inews880.com/Channels/Reg...spx?ID=1693387

[Blueline]

hooray

[IanO]

I just can't see 10g a unit for this being an incentive. As per the CCDP, I can see it spurring typical unit construction though. The EFCL is also working on family friendly housing strategies and will be presenting recommendations to exec comm this fall I believe. What we need is to design smaller 3 bdrms or 2 plus dens that don't need 1200 sqft. I have been in some in van at 900 sqft.

[Blueline]

Ian I would suggest 1200-1500 being the sizes need

[IanO]

^why? Plus... keep in mind that in new concrete even with mid level finished you are in the 400+sqft. (probably more in the 425)

1200 = 480k min

1500 = 600k min

Sure those are good sizes, but unaffordable for most families. There is no reason why you cannot do a well planned 2 + or 3bdrm in under 1000. Keep in mind this is where common areas come into play as well as public space around the building and in the neighbourhood.

[bolo]

People generally think they need a bigger space than they actually do. I find that when people are forced to settle into a smaller space (due to budget or availability), they quickly adapt and tend not to care to expand. I've lived with a roommate in a 700 sqft space, and we never thought it was small, and we even hosted friends that visited us. It just makes you more efficient and less of a packrat. And the nice thing is that it controls your spending by forcing you to consider whether whatever purchase you are going to make is worth the room it will take hahah.

[EveB]

Back in the day when larger families were expected, the houses were smaller than they are now. I was raised in what would seem a small house by today's standards, but I don't remember feeling space deprived. Especially as I had my own attic room (my brother had the other half of the attic).

We just spent more time outside.

Eve

[IanO]

This is also where proper amounts of storage, both ensuite and in a secure location somewhere else in the building, comes into play in terms of importance.