LED Street Lighting - not yet

[KC]

I hope the City waits. Break even isn't good enough when you know that LED's are almost guaranteed to get much better and much cheaper. Why get stuck with a bunch of sub-par long life assets that cost 'full' price.

According to this news release:

Cree introduces brighter street lights
The new LEDs add to a compelling case for long-term efficiency.

"The XSP Series LED street lights use nearly 50% less energy and are designed to last more than three times longer than high-pressure sodium street lighting. More importantly, when bought in volume, the new lights will cost around $200 per light, which, when maintenance and energy costs are included, will be on par with the high-pressure sodium street lights."...

http://money.msn.com/top-stocks/post...9-cfc3a83e3c46

[atrus]

There's always going to be something new and better down the road. And there will be always be something new and better down the road from that.

Can't wait forever.

[Medwards]

http://www.edmonton.ca/transportatio...onversion.aspx

[KC]

Originally Posted by atrus

There's always going to be something new and better down the road. And there will be always be something new and better down the road from that.

Can't wait forever.

I understand that. However the last 20 years have revealed a desperate need for the City to take a more intelligent approach to capital expenditures on infrastructure. Corporate promises of savings from technological changes rarely match the final reality, so I'd sure guess that waiting on rapidly evolving technologies can only improve our leverage.

Convert everything over in your neighbourhood now and you may be stuck with it for a decade or two.

[edmonton daily photo]

http://www.edmonton.ca/transportatio...onversion.aspx
That list just Annoys me... No Queen Mary Park.. No Oliver...

We are still years away from having the curbs and sidewalks done in Oliver...

I could just SPIT!

Side note.. the bubble houses made it into the renewal project report
http://www.edmonton.ca/city_governme...tingBudget.pdf

[atrus]

Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo

That list just Annoys me... No Queen Mary Park.. No Oliver...

That is still a pilot project, so of course they're not doing the whole city. They're testing a few different models to see how it goes.

[Dialog]

Originally Posted by KC

I hope the City waits. Break even isn't good enough when you know that LED's are almost guaranteed to get much better and much cheaper. Why get stuck with a bunch of sub-par long life assets that cost 'full' price.

According to this news release:

Cree introduces brighter street lights
The new LEDs add to a compelling case for long-term efficiency.

"The XSP Series LED street lights use nearly 50% less energy and are designed to last more than three times longer than high-pressure sodium street lighting. More importantly, when bought in volume, the new lights will cost around $200 per light, which, when maintenance and energy costs are included, will be on par with the high-pressure sodium street lights."...

http://money.msn.com/top-stocks/post...9-cfc3a83e3c46

Cost will undoubtedly fall, but how do you know the current LED streetlights being installed by the CoE are worse—I presume you mean quality—than what has been announced, how do you know this?

[edmonton daily photo]

Originally Posted by atrus

That is still a pilot project, so of course they're not doing the whole city. They're testing a few different models to see how it goes.

And why wouldn't you test some of Edmonton's most dense neighborhoods?! neighborhoods that are walkable, where people actually need better lighting and want it?!

Where the cost of the pilot project would be the cheapest per capita?

[Hilman]

Maybe it has to do with this, from the link Medwards provided:

Neighbourhood LED Retrofit Program

This program selects neighbourhoods that are in the middle of their life span. The retrofit program targets neighborhoods with poor pole conditions and old luminaires. Both the pole and luminaires will be replaced in these areas. This will include the conversion of alley lighting. The existing base and cable will remain until the neighbourhood is eventually selected in the future for full reconstruction.

More reading, less complaining?

[Dialog]

Riverdale's alley lighting conversion to LED isn't complete yet; I forget why, but it's not a case of being a taxpayer-paid upgrade, like getting an alley paved.

[KC]

Originally Posted by Dialog

Cost will undoubtedly fall, but how do you know the current LED streetlights being installed by the CoE are worse—I presume you mean quality—than what has been announced, how do you know this?

I'm making the huge assumption that LEDs might evolve like computers, etc.

Note: I've owned shares in Cree on and off for about 10 or so years. Their lighting has changed.

[Medwards]

Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo

And why wouldn't you test some of Edmonton's most dense neighborhoods?! neighborhoods that are walkable, where people actually need better lighting and want it?!

Where the cost of the pilot project would be the cheapest per capita?

God you whine a lot... I know you have never left central Edmonton, but people walk in all neighbourhoods, not just dense central neighbourhoods...

[Titanium48]

Originally Posted by KC

I'm making the huge assumption that LEDs might evolve like computers, etc.

Note: I've owned shares in Cree on and off for about 10 or so years. Their lighting has changed.

While there certainly is more room for improvement, Moore's law will not apply to LEDs. Production LEDs now achieve over 100 lumens per watt, and the current record is over 250 lm/W. The theoretical maximum efficacy for any light source is 683 lm/W, and that would have to be monochromatic greenish yellow. For white light with a modest color rendering index, the limit is about 400 lm/W, or about 300 lm/W for a high CRI. Future production models are unlikely to be more than twice as efficient as current models, and I would not be surprised if we don't see those until the current models are nearing the end of their life and need replaced anyways.

Pricing is likely to come down, but with current models having achieved breakeven on life cycle costs, it is perfectly reasonable to do exactly what the city is doing now - use LEDs to replace streetlights that need replacing anyways. Sometime in the near future a combination of modestly improved LED efficiencies, lower LED prices and higher electricity prices will make converting the whole city cost-effective, and it will be good to have some experience with different brands and different vendors at that time.

[KC]

Originally Posted by Titanium48

While there certainly is more room for improvement, Moore's law will not apply to LEDs. Production LEDs now achieve over 100 lumens per watt, and the current record is over 250 lm/W. The theoretical maximum efficacy for any light source is 683 lm/W, and that would have to be monochromatic greenish yellow. For white light with a modest color rendering index, the limit is about 400 lm/W, or about 300 lm/W for a high CRI. Future production models are unlikely to be more than twice as efficient as current models, and I would not be surprised if we don't see those until the current models are nearing the end of their life and need replaced anyways.

Pricing is likely to come down, but with current models having achieved breakeven on life cycle costs, it is perfectly reasonable to do exactly what the city is doing now - use LEDs to replace streetlights that need replacing anyways. Sometime in the near future a combination of modestly improved LED efficiencies, lower LED prices and higher electricity prices will make converting the whole city cost-effective, and it will be good to have some experience with different brands and different vendors at that time.

Great post. Yes all things being equal, replace with LED. However going forward competition will improve LEDs in other ways. Right now they are just meeting and copying the standard but now that new minds are on the task, expect many new innovations to be introduced.

i.e. off the top of my mind I could see people inventing all kinds of things for street lights. Say increasing/decreasing illumination levels according to ambient light for further efficiency, hybrid solar-grid lights, fog / snow storm specific lighting, high traffic illumination, pedestrian focused illumination and other directional enhancements, WiFi/APP triggered lighting, emergency situation flashing colours...

The future could be very bright

[KC]

Just read about a new high efficiency solar breakthrough. Maybe some new areas could eventually completly avoid the cost of wiring them in and instead just use solar/battery operated streetlights.

[lat]

Originally Posted by KC

Just read about a new high efficiency solar breakthrough. Maybe some new areas could eventually completly avoid the cost of wiring them in and instead just use solar/battery operated streetlights.

link?

[sundance]

Solar cells are at best around 40% efficient today, but advances are being made all the time especially with organic polymers. As they are becoming thinner and more transparent and you can stack more levels increasing the power output per area.

[KC]

Here's the link. Again - the point is - why rush a total conversion when improvements are coming fast and the lifecycle is so long that you may be stuck living that long time with a substandard early generation light/fixture.

Counterintuitive "LED-type" solar cell breaks efficiency record
http://www.sciencenewsdaily.org/ener...ster147117480/

[Channing]

The problem with solar streetlights is then you need battery, which adds to the cost and are very inefficient during the cold winter months.

[darkmagnoblade]

what does everyone think of the new LED lights they put up around west edmonton mall i for one like them as there not as bright would be nice if we would change the whole city to it maybe i wouldnt have to really go all the way out of the city to take a good night photo anymore

[KC]

Originally Posted by Channing

The problem with solar streetlights is then you need battery, which adds to the cost and are very inefficient during the cold winter months.

Yeah, I've got one (solar/battery/LED) in my backyard and it is rather useless. That doesn't mean they will still be crap in 10 years time.

I'd still like to see "task lighting" adopted for our streets and LEDs will create new possibilities (just look at how digital cameras are moving beyond the traditional capabilities of old film cameras. eg. the Lytro.).

[cantilever]

I've seen some of the new LED lights down in Yellowbird over the past couple months. I do admit that they increase the amount of light on the street, and likely save the city a lot of money on electricity usage.

It's just nostalgia and not rooted in logic, but I will miss the calm orange glow of a high pressure sodium lamp when white LEDs eventually take over

[edmonton daily photo]

Originally Posted by Medwards

God you whine a lot... I know you have never left central Edmonton, but people walk in all neighbourhoods, not just dense central neighbourhoods...

Ansd you can thank me for raising these Oliver issues with the city...

[sundance]

Originally Posted by cantilever

It's just nostalgia and not rooted in logic, but I will miss the calm orange glow of a high pressure sodium lamp when white LEDs eventually take over

My nostalgia tends to either incandescent or mercury vapor. I remember seeing a lone incandescent light on 76th Avenue south of Bonnie Doon about 10 years ago, perhaps it was the last one left on Edmonton streets. So the whiter slightly bluer light is more what I grew up with.

[KC]

I was just reading something that makes me think that the lifespan ratings on LEDs are too low and that they might last much longer than currently accepted/promoted. If that is true that will be great news. However, I also just read the following comment by a poster on another site. It's very interesting. Maybe they need to think about initially replacing only some lights where the impact will be minimal and hoping that technical solutions will follow for the high visibility locations.


http://seekingalpha.com/article/5478...s-another-look
excerpt (I've added para. breaks to improve readability):
roblitesComments (46)

"LED’s Brightness Headache."

"Having been in the lighting industry for 40 years, I remember in the 70's that the brighter than incandescent, more efficient high pressure sodium lamps, those orange lights you see from a plane, were installed into street lights everywhere, synergised by the oil embargos and ghastly high oil prices and contrary to their being brighter bulbs supplying more light, pedestrian deaths reportedly started to increase remarkably.

The problem uncovered was that the new HPS lamp brightness placed in an incandescent fixture not designed for such was affecting drivers’ peripheral, "scotopic" vision, which we depend on when we are driving at night. It helps us perceived such things as a pedestrian walking out onto the road from between two parked cars. This safety issue was mitigated over time by designed reflectors being installed into the street lights which deaden some of the brightness with cut-offs to more safe levels. It is in a gentle balance of not too much cutoff to suppress brightness because that causes lower fixture efficiency and light output. Goldie Locks balanced fixture design.

In my opinion,that balancing act can't happen with the LED, which is extremely bright, (high foot lamberts). Have you looked into your LED flash light lately? And Cree, the leading technologist, just announced they are exacerbating the brightness factor by starting to manufacture LEDs that produce approximately twice the brightness.. Their reason is you use less of the LEDs, which are expensive, in a fixture and therefore, the fixture is cheaper. They are particularly “bully” about the street light fixture utilizing these higher brightness LED’s they will be marketing per a recent press release.

LEDs brightness can't be harnessed by meaningful sized reflectors. Each can be aimed but there will always be the brightness problem from any angle from which you view light output. A designer can stuff the LED “bread board” way up inside a street light head but then there goes the output and spread.

This problem has been recognized by a Carnegie Mellon, Remaking Cities Institute, report for the city of Pittsburgh. In the text, their report is very critical of the LED for street lighting due to brightness and points out that some involved in consideration are not using correct instrumentation to evaluate the brightness issue. They also point out that typical municipal evaluations are not fairly designed. Do not be fooled by the upfront “executive brief” which seems to recommend the LED street lights for the city. It assumes the city will find a way to solve all the brightness problems they perceive in the guts of the report and initiate,for all other US municipalities with similar curiosities,ways of finding solutions. The report is incredibly complete and thorough in its research.

Unfortunately the “unenlightened” equate good lighting to brightness without understanding its danger in street lighting and in this situation observers, the report points out, witness typical trial installations in static mockups with odd color comparisons, that orange colored lamp. The report link is below and it is worth a look.
http://bit.ly/I2ZSaa
Also, put “bright LED street lights” in a search engine and look at all the local paper articles high lighting citizens complaining about brightness from new neighborhood LED installations. Next, go to the high end coffee shop and look into their parking lot LED fixture. You'll get retinal retention, like a flash bulb went off...even at dusk. .
I see the street light and tunnel brightness problem gaining wider attention which will affect these LED applications, an extremely important market to those involved. I’m only waiting until the first Tort Law office sees something like the Pittsburgh report. They’ll all be out looking for a pedestrians injured by car accidents in those communities that have installed LED street lights and will attack everyone involved; mfrs, consulting engineers, and the communities.
I don’t own anything vaguely related to LED’s and should be retired from 40 years in the business. I stayed because I was afraid of the dark as a child.
ECR, LLC"

[KC]

http://www.technologyreview.com/view...ng-sweet-spot/


"An important advantage LED-based lamps have over incumbent technologies is that LED light sources—the semiconductors that emit light—are on a faster price-performance curve. That means each new generation puts out more light per watt, while the costs continue to go down. In the case of the latest CR6, Cree was able to reduce the number of LEDs from over 30 to six and still get more light output than the previous version. Designers also wrung out costs by cutting out electrical components and using a new lens to diffuse light."