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The Great Arena Conversation. This is only for posting your position as either for or against this deal. This is not to debate a stance. Post in the appropriate thread please.


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Old 28-10-2011, 12:57 PM   #1
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Default Council Credibility

Didn't know where exactly to put this as it involves two topics but in a sense one. It involves council credibility.

I've been a Mandel backer for a longtime but I find recently that he's a bit unraveled and I question his current thinking and decision making.
My theory is that at some point in the arena deliberation he just got to the point where he would accept most any deal just to get this done. I'm sensing he's burnt out about this issue, if not in general.

Some unsettling statements this week by Mandel:

Re: the museum:

Quote:
“I had heard about the $90 million for a long time. It had been committed to. I can’t imagine why our province would have (moved) ahead without some form of commitment.”
Quote:
“I’m just surprised and shocked and dismayed that this has come to this.”
Quote:
“I’m tired of being screwed as an Albertan. I’m tired of being treated as a second class citizen,” he fumed. “I’m so disappointed, that something that was so important to the city can be snatched away without any consultation. This is unconscionable. It is an absolutely unconscionable act. It’s not even about the money so much. It’s about the disrespect this shows to the city and the people of Edmonton.”
Quote:
“As high was I was today for the arena, I am way lower,”
At the same time as this we have the city going forward and some alderman continuing to talk about provincial funding for the arena as if its a done deal.

Even though the MSI is tapped out and can't reasonbly be considered as a source of the 100M provincial money.

So where is the provincial money coming from?

I find Mandels first quote about the RAM very curious considering this missing 100M in provincial funding for the new arena.
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Old 28-10-2011, 11:26 PM   #2
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I moved this here as it is a separate topic
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Old 29-10-2011, 08:57 AM   #3
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I am not that concerned about the remaining 100M as the money will be found one way or another between RSG and COE. They could just make some adjustments to the existing framework such as increasing the ticket tax. Raising that from 7% to 10% would raise around 50M alone.

This would also be a popular option for those against using any form of city taxes as it is a user pay fee where those who attend events pay for the facility. Similar to Airport Improvement Fee's, if you don't use the airport you don't have to pay.

The museum is a much different story as they don't have the revenue streams to draw from that the new arena does.
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Old 29-10-2011, 10:55 AM   #4
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This on the front page of the Edmonton Journal, only a few days after the $450+M arena approved by City Council.


EDMONTON - Tight funding and growing debt payments mean Edmonton could miss neighbourhood renewal targets and see more potholes on deteriorating arterial roads, budget documents warn.
<snip>
There was “insufficient emphasis placed on growth infrastructure prior to 2007, which put the city in a position of playing catch up,” say the documents, which council will discuss Nov. 9.
The overriding reality today is the city does not have enough funding to meet its infrastructure needs.”
Debt-servicing charges covered by property taxes are set to peak at $90 million in 2017 from $70 million next year, before starting a long, steady decline.
Todd Burge, the city’s branch manager of client financial services, said provincial limits would allow Edmonton to borrow another $1.4 billion, but the interest charges would have an impact on taxes.
“I think there will still be opportunities going ahead, and council has to make those choices — is $1.4 billion enough to deal with (unexpected) emerging issues?”
But Coun. Tony Caterina said Friday he’s concerned about what lies ahead, particularly for crumbling, older areas.
<snip>
Money could be saved by eliminating $30 million for design work on the downtown arena until there’s confirmation of the final $100 million in funding for the project being sought from the province, Caterina said.
gkent@edmontonjournal.com


Read more: http://www.canada.com/news/Expect+mo...#ixzz1cBqnJBQ8
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Old 29-10-2011, 11:19 AM   #5
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Mandel has every right to be upset. Im glad he is honest with his comments and doesnt walk on eggshells.

But I agree the missing money for the RAM and the Arena, and talks of the MSI tapped out, this isnt looking to good right now.
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Old 29-10-2011, 01:14 PM   #6
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I don't know. Mandel has been solid with what he's had to work with. The problem with Canadian cities is that there is no federal plan for cities - there's no consistent source of funding. Civic politicians are required to play politics with the other levels of government to secure funding.

I'd rather see municipalites automatically receive more money on a regular basis instead of begging for grants.
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Old 29-10-2011, 01:14 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
This on the front page of the Edmonton Journal, only a few days after the $450+M arena approved by City Council.


The overriding reality today is the city does not have enough funding to meet its infrastructure needs.”
hey now! If only that Mandel guy would step-up and champion something to significantly increase the year-to-year tax base... oh wait... never mind - carry on!
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Old 29-10-2011, 03:18 PM   #8
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Wondering whether Henderson is considering Mandels responses as well in stating this:

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...001/story.html

Quote:
"Quite frankly, we don't know who to be angry with at this point, but it would be criminal if whatever infighting is happening brings this thing crashing down," Coun. Ben Henderson said.
Clearly Henderson is also upset at the RAM news but he expresses it more appropriately than Mandel did.:

Quote:
"I don't understand what the game is and who is playing it. I don't know what else we can do, other than saying to our federal and provincial people, 'Figure it out guys, because this is really critically important, and a huge kick in the teeth to the City of Edmonton.' "
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Old 29-10-2011, 06:19 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
This on the front page of the Edmonton Journal, only a few days after the $450+M arena approved by City Council.


The overriding reality today is the city does not have enough funding to meet its infrastructure needs.”
hey now! If only that Mandel guy would step-up and champion something to significantly increase the year-to-year tax base... oh wait... never mind - carry on!
To be honest, Edmonton should be increasing its taxes more than it has in the past. Our taxes are relatively low given the quality and availability of municipal services.
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Old 29-10-2011, 06:26 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
This on the front page of the Edmonton Journal, only a few days after the $450+M arena approved by City Council.


The overriding reality today is the city does not have enough funding to meet its infrastructure needs.”
hey now! If only that Mandel guy would step-up and champion something to significantly increase the year-to-year tax base... oh wait... never mind - carry on!
To be honest, Edmonton should be increasing its taxes more than it has in the past. Our taxes are relatively low given the quality and availability of municipal services.
Agree with this and that It'll probably happen and more likely if we build the New Arena without provincial funding.

I still find Krushell's assertion that no tax dollars will go into this arena a disingenious, and misleading shell game. You can always make the argument that it won't lead to a increase in property tax, but fronting huge money for a new arena, possible shortfalls in CRL, Ticket surcharge, and possible lack of provincial funding makes it increasingly likely that Krushell was basically spreading further myths.

I dare say her comments about not requiring additional tax monies will ring false soon enough.
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Old 03-11-2011, 04:14 PM   #11
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RAM money - Laurie Hawn put it in writing in his 2009 campaign materials under the heading "Standing Up for Edmonton" that there was an $86 million Federal commitment to this project, so to back out now is not acceptable. Also RAM is not a City project (although it is a huge factor in helping the downtown) so Edmonton should not be asked to choose, as Rona Ambrose has done, between the RAM and LRT for Federal funding. So I am not surprised Mandel is fuming. That is standing up for Edmonton.
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Old 19-01-2012, 05:42 PM   #12
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Default Arena boosterism won't bolster reckless move by council

Here is an educated opinion on the funding issues for the arena.

Arena boosterism won't bolster reckless move by council
By Cec Purves, former mayor, Edmonton
Edmonton Journal January 19, 2012

Re: "Will our arena look like this?; Project manager ICON Venue Group has built several NHL arenas, selects preferred architect," The Journal, "Edmonton plan looks to follow the route Columbus charted," by David Staples and "We'll never know what other options we might have had," by Paula Simons, Jan. 17.
After reading Tuesday's Journal with regard to the new arena and the booster-ism, except for the only sane voice - Paula Simons - I was appalled.
Daryl Katz may be planning the arena, but he sure isn't paying for it. Council even allowed him to sidestep the $100-million equity investment he volunteered, as the Shaping the City report said was a necessary part of the funding.
The report also indicated that at least 30 per cent should come from equity financing. Instead the city will finance the whole $534-million cost of the project. The city has full exposure and responsibility for repayment. Katz has not even given security on his $100 million. <SNIP>

To read more on http://www.edmontonjournal.com/sport...222/story.html
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Old 19-01-2012, 07:57 PM   #13
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Ya who cares.. Cec was part of city council during the areas that saw our dt historical treasures torn down and a number of other planing travesties... Hardly the steward of edmontons golden age.

Blah blah blah... Noise noise noise... Hey cec! We elected theses people... And I am perfectly happy with my choice!

Btw... Cec your far from a financial wizard.. Did you not file for bankruptcy in the late 80's?? Yep u sure did!
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Old 20-01-2012, 07:02 AM   #14
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Typical, attack the poster (or former mayor) than rather addressing the issue. Nice ad hominem attack.


Blah blah blah... Noise noise noise... from the "Arena-at-any-cost" proponents.
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Old 20-01-2012, 07:37 AM   #15
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Typical, attack the current mayor rather than addressing the issue (what issue??!!?)

blah blah blah.... noise noise noise... from the "my taxdollars better never be touched unless its to build a duplicate street network 10 feet off the ground"
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Old 20-01-2012, 07:52 AM   #16
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There you go again

Why don't you read what Purves stated and what was confirmed from credible sources and then address those issues rather that your weak attacks?

ad ho·mi·nem
adjective
1. appealing to one's prejudices, emotions, or special interests rather than to one's intellect or reason.

2. attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument.
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Old 20-01-2012, 07:54 AM   #17
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Kerry Diotte was nearly expelled from a Catholic School Board meeting earlier this week.
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Old 20-01-2012, 08:25 AM   #18
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And what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
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Old 20-01-2012, 08:51 AM   #19
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There you go again

Why don't you read what Purves stated and what was confirmed from credible sources and then address those issues rather that your weak attacks?

ad ho·mi·nem
adjective
1. appealing to one's prejudices, emotions, or special interests rather than to one's intellect or reason.

2. attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument.
I have made my point... that being the OPINION of Cec is one that I don't respect..
He can take his perceived "travesty" and stuff it. Just because someone had been involved in muni politics for 40+ years doesn't mean they were good at it.

We elected the city council knowing FULL WELL they were pro DT arena and Pro Muni Closure. I'm sorry if you don't like this PRT but the majority of Edmontonions do. The long term effects of this project will outweigh the short term expense.

So Cec can take his view and his DT destroying legacy of the 70's-80's and eat it along with a health amount of crow.

I'm tired of old white men trying to tell us what to do.
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Old 20-01-2012, 09:33 AM   #20
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What majority?

The funding model was not an election issue. The funding changed dramatically and you have not a single piecer of evidence that the majority of Edmontonians support the fundiing model.
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Old 20-01-2012, 11:02 AM   #21
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Kerry Diotte was nearly expelled from a Catholic School Board meeting earlier this week.
Why?
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Old 20-01-2012, 11:28 AM   #22
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What majority?

The funding model was not an election issue. The funding changed dramatically and you have not a single piecer of evidence that the majority of Edmontonians support the fundiing model.
We elected the people who were going to negotiate the model. They were hardly unknown. Maybe you should ask why the arena was never a major topic in the election? Maybe because it has to do with the overwhelming support for it. I'm Sorry PRT... your view does not match the sentiments of most people. The overwhelming reply to this especially within my demographic is "Get it built"

I'm tired of the whining and the NIMBYism... ooo and the lack of vision. I pay taxes so stuff like this can get built.. I could only wish for more investment into our cities.

Don't throw back some BS about a multi million dollar play pen for a billionaire. That is a sensational statement that isn't true. The city owns the building. Katz Carries all the operational risk associated to it and upkeep on the building. If he doesn't pay the outlined rent, he is punted and the city moves in and gets everything.

This is not different than a PVT developer building a building and than leasing it out. That's all we are doing... Building a building and leasing it to Katz.
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Old 20-01-2012, 11:30 AM   #23
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Kerry Diotte was nearly expelled from a Catholic School Board meeting earlier this week.
Why?
Quickly as this is way off topic.

School public hearings are for the public, not for gov't officials. That is the schools formal reply.

I can understand it. This public form is not a place to be campaigning and there are formal channels for Kerry to use. Him wanting to stand up and talk was more about showmanship than anything.
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Old 20-01-2012, 12:38 PM   #24
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What majority?

The funding model was not an election issue. The funding changed dramatically and you have not a single piecer of evidence that the majority of Edmontonians support the fundiing model.
We elected the people who were going to negotiate the model. They were hardly unknown. Maybe you should ask why the arena was never a major topic in the election? Maybe because it has to do with the overwhelming support for it. I'm Sorry PRT... your view does not match the sentiments of most people. The overwhelming reply to this especially within my demographic is "Get it built"

I'm tired of the whining and the NIMBYism... ooo and the lack of vision. I pay taxes so stuff like this can get built.. I could only wish for more investment into our cities.

Don't throw back some BS about a multi million dollar play pen for a billionaire. That is a sensational statement that isn't true. The city owns the building. Katz Carries all the operational risk associated to it and upkeep on the building. If he doesn't pay the outlined rent, he is punted and the city moves in and gets everything.

This is not different than a PVT developer building a building and than leasing it out. That's all we are doing... Building a building and leasing it to Katz.
Why don't you address his statements in his Letter to the Editor rather than your mindless rants?
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Old 20-01-2012, 05:12 PM   #25
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Katz Carries all the operational risk associated to it and upkeep on the building. If he doesn't pay the outlined rent, he is punted and the city moves in and gets everything.

This is not different than a PVT developer building a building and than leasing it out. That's all we are doing... Building a building and leasing it to Katz.
Under the proposed lease, the City will recover at most 20% of the capital cost of the arena. Closer to 12% for the first 10 years due to the so-called marketing agreement.

Once the deal is finalized and the arena is built, the City loses all its leverage. What is the City going to do? Kick out the Oilers and Oil Kings and rent the building out for military tattoos and symphony concerts?
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Old 20-01-2012, 10:21 PM   #26
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[I have made my point... that being the OPINION of Cec is one that I don't respect..
He can take his perceived "travesty" and stuff it. Just because someone had been involved in muni politics for 40+ years doesn't mean they were good at it.

We elected the city council knowing FULL WELL they were pro DT arena and Pro Muni Closure. I'm sorry if you don't like this PRT but the majority of Edmontonions do. The long term effects of this project will outweigh the short term expense.

So Cec can take his view and his DT destroying legacy of the 70's-80's and eat it along with a health amount of crow.

I'm tired of old white men trying to tell us what to do.
This is clear BS.

My alderman (Sohi) clearly campaigned to oppose ANY public funding of an arena and has been implicitely clear on that in his campaign, debates, and in discussion door to door. He went clearly against what he promised to his ward and won't be getting a further vote from me. Several other alderman were also opposed to public funding of an arena during the election campaign.

Additionally the majority of Edmontonians did not want a public funded arena. They answered yes(by a slim margin) to the online city poll that promised that no tax dollars would be involved in the funding/financing of a new arena. Which was a misleading question and premise from the start.

If asked directly whether they wanted a new arena publicly funded/financed by tax dollars citizens were overwhelmingly opposed. Your own nonsense to the contrary.

http://speakupedmonton.ca/issues/details/undemocratic

If you don't like that source check out any of the other polls they link to that ask the money question.
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Old 20-01-2012, 10:30 PM   #27
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Most of the Councilors and the Mayor sold their soul by breaking their own guidelines and multi-conditional requirements for a deal at any cost.
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Old 20-01-2012, 11:29 PM   #28
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Most of the Councilors and the Mayor sold their soul by breaking their own guidelines and multi-conditional requirements for a deal at any cost.
Especially after the NY strong arm meetings with Bettman and Katz.

Mandel looked out of sorts upon his return. I can only imagine he got his *** handed to him out there by some heavyweight negotiators.

Its amazing how many concessions were given into outright after that trip.

Krushells guarantee that no tax money would ever go into this sure rings hollow now.

I can't remember the last time I've felt so lied to and representation betrayed by a city council.

This will surely go down as the city council that got played bigtime and we're all left holding the buck.
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Old 21-01-2012, 07:34 PM   #29
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Even Ben Henderson who stated that he would not vote for it if certain conditions were not met, changed his tune. I guess principles and ethics are not what they used to be.
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Old 22-01-2012, 12:09 PM   #30
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Katz Carries all the operational risk associated to it and upkeep on the building. If he doesn't pay the outlined rent, he is punted and the city moves in and gets everything.

This is not different than a PVT developer building a building and than leasing it out. That's all we are doing... Building a building and leasing it to Katz.
Under the proposed lease, the City will recover at most 20% of the capital cost of the arena. Closer to 12% for the first 10 years due to the so-called marketing agreement.

Once the deal is finalized and the arena is built, the City loses all its leverage. What is the City going to do? Kick out the Oilers and Oil Kings and rent the building out for military tattoos and symphony concerts?
The city looses all its leverage?? HOW.. YOu don't pay the rent.. you dont get to rn the building. Don't forget the city gets the space 4 week out of the year... Plus the money from it.

Further negotiation would just be a shell game.

Nor is anyone taking into consideration that Months after the approvalto move ahead with the project we are now looking at 5+ towers.. a new hotel and other major projects on top of the the 4 block site.

The increased tax windfall from this is HUGE. would it have gotten built in time.. maybe but what id the increased tax winfalll of the projects being built five years sooner?

Thins do not operate in a vacuum. THe building of the new arena ramps up the need for the SE - W LRT line. The CRL means a dedicated pool of funds will be spent improving our DT core. AND.. the arena, the the choosing of who is goign to build/design it is creating positive North American headlines about Edmonton.

These Myopic simplistic one sided views of the issue are classic Edmonton.

Time to put on the big city pants people!
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Old 22-01-2012, 12:10 PM   #31
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What majority?

The funding model was not an election issue. The funding changed dramatically and you have not a single piecer of evidence that the majority of Edmontonians support the fundiing model.
We elected the people who were going to negotiate the model. They were hardly unknown. Maybe you should ask why the arena was never a major topic in the election? Maybe because it has to do with the overwhelming support for it. I'm Sorry PRT... your view does not match the sentiments of most people. The overwhelming reply to this especially within my demographic is "Get it built"

I'm tired of the whining and the NIMBYism... ooo and the lack of vision. I pay taxes so stuff like this can get built.. I could only wish for more investment into our cities.

Don't throw back some BS about a multi million dollar play pen for a billionaire. That is a sensational statement that isn't true. The city owns the building. Katz Carries all the operational risk associated to it and upkeep on the building. If he doesn't pay the outlined rent, he is punted and the city moves in and gets everything.

This is not different than a PVT developer building a building and than leasing it out. That's all we are doing... Building a building and leasing it to Katz.
Why don't you address his statements in his Letter to the Editor rather than your mindless rants?
I don't have to... the arena is getting built...

The best thing to do to a petulant child is ignore them.
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Old 08-02-2012, 08:45 PM   #32
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I pay taxes so stuff like this can get built.. I could only wish for more investment into our cities.
Some time after it will have been built (oooh, assuming, assuming...) will be a good moment to analyze the project's effective wealth redistribution effects on the city's economy.

But such analyses are deadly dull, except to those who are on the wrong side of long spent municipal revenues.
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Old 09-02-2012, 05:09 PM   #33
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The city looses all its leverage?? HOW.. YOu don't pay the rent.. you dont get to rn the building. Don't forget the city gets the space 4 week out of the year... Plus the money from it.
By negotiating a stupidly low rent we lose our leverage.



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Further negotiation would just be a shell game.
I don't think that this is an appropriate use of the term "shell game"


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Nor is anyone taking into consideration that Months after the approvalto move ahead with the project we are now looking at 5+ towers.. a new hotel and other major projects on top of the the 4 block site.
Please provide a list of those towers and when they were announced.


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Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post

The increased tax windfall from this is HUGE. would it have gotten built in time.. maybe but what id the increased tax winfalll of the projects being built five years sooner?
Please provide a list of those projects which have been brought forward due to the Arena.


Quote:
Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post

Thins do not operate in a vacuum. THe building of the new arena ramps up the need for the SE - W LRT line. The CRL means a dedicated pool of funds will be spent improving our DT core. AND.. the arena, the the choosing of who is goign to build/design it is creating positive North American headlines about Edmonton..
By spending money on an arena we need to spend more money on LRT. Financially this does not go in the positive collumn.

What North American headline did we get for choosing the designer or builder of this arena. Link please.


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Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post

These Myopic simplistic one sided views of the issue are classic Edmonton.

Time to put on the big city pants people!
Insulting people because you don't agree with them is not the best way of winning an argument.

However that does not stop people from trying.
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Old 09-02-2012, 05:11 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Arsoys View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
I pay taxes so stuff like this can get built.. I could only wish for more investment into our cities.
Some time after it will have been built (oooh, assuming, assuming...) will be a good moment to analyze the project's effective wealth redistribution effects on the city's economy.

But such analyses are deadly dull, except to those who are on the wrong side of long spent municipal revenues.

Analyzing and bemoaning the waste of taxpayer dollars (once again assuming...) after they are spent is like closing the barn door after the horse has run away.
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Old 11-02-2012, 04:47 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by kjh View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsoys View Post
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Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
I pay taxes so stuff like this can get built.. I could only wish for more investment into our cities.
Some time after it will have been built (oooh, assuming, assuming...) will be a good moment to analyze the project's effective wealth redistribution effects on the city's economy.

But such analyses are deadly dull, except to those who are on the wrong side of long spent municipal revenues.

Analyzing and bemoaning the waste of taxpayer dollars (once again assuming...) after they are spent is like closing the barn door after the horse has run away.
Maybe if we analyze it after the fact we can avoid repeating the same mistake for once...
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Old 24-03-2012, 12:42 AM   #36
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Default who is going to benifit once the areana is built

What we need to remember after the areana is built is that Edmonton will have outclassed the cowboys down the hiway to cowtown. Im in for it. I am not an oiler fan or big on sports but wow this will create some vibrance in the downtown core and it will be great form my propery value .

Is there an new hotel being built by the Epcor tower or some thing like that. I thought it was going to be built by the Katz group for their hocky players. does any one know or is it just internet lies
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Old 25-03-2012, 06:02 PM   #37
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Quebec City will break ground on NHL-ready arena in September. Link -> CBC

Quote:
(Quebecor CEO Pierre Karl) Peladeau made no mention of the NHL in his statement either, saying the arena would be a multi-purpose facility that would make "all Quebecers proud."

Two Quebec ministers, Michelle Courchesne and Sam Hamad, were also on hand for the announcement.

The province and Quebec City have pledged millions in taxpayer money for the project.
It really burns my britches that Quebec City will have a new barn before Edmonton, yet they don't even have an NHL club.
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