Tories misled Parliament on G8 spending: Auditor-General

[PrairieBoyinExile]

The Auditor-General says the Harper government misinformed Parliament to win approval for a $50-million G8 fund that lavished money on dubious projects in a Conservative riding.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1979865/

Let's see all the Conservative shills try to defend this one.

[grish]

they will not. they will pretend it never happened and talk about the coalition.

the other day Harper said something about eliminating deficit sooner by removing inefficiencies in government. I wonder if he was talking about wasteful spending such as this one and also the untendered contracts for unnecessary jets.

[PrairieBoyinExile]

In related news:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cana...ag-fraser.html

Auditor General Sheila Fraser has written a scathing letter rebuking the Conservatives for misquoting her in a parliamentary report on the costs of the G8/G20 summits in Toronto last summer, CBC News has learned.

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by grish

they will not. they will pretend it never happened and talk about the coalition.

the other day Harper said something about eliminating deficit sooner by removing inefficiencies in government. I wonder if he was talking about wasteful spending such as this one and also the untendered contracts for unnecessary jets.

Good point. I'm still trying to figure that one out.

[moahunter]

There was a survey a little while ago that asked if Canadians thought a billion for G8 was worth it, and surprisingly, most said it was. I don't see this being an issue with any traction. Liberals would have done exactly same thing in power.

[andrew]

Originally Posted by moahunter

There was a survey a little while ago that asked if Canadians thought a billion for G8 was worth it, and surprisingly, most said it was. I don't see this being an issue with any traction. Liberals would have done exactly same thing in power.

The issue is not if people think it was a good idea or not.
The issue is that (yet again) Harper lied about what he was doing/did to parliament.

[moahunter]

^all politicians lie/spin stuff, that's what they do. The whole misleading parliment thing is a joke when its a minority government and the opposition parties running the committees. I still don't see this as an issue that anyone other than fanatical harper haters will give a toss about a few accounting classification iregualities. Pork for a riding is no big deal, all governments do it (this isn't the same as using backhanders to fund a political party or personal friends, be it Mulroney or Adscam).

If it was Anne Mclellan funding TELUS world of science, or one of the many other things she helped Edmonton with, everyone would be cheering her on...

[Dialog]

Originally Posted by moahunter

There was a survey a little while ago that asked if Canadians thought a billion for G8 was worth it, and surprisingly, most said it was. I don't see this being an issue with any traction. Liberals would have done exactly same thing in power.

Source. Please.

[grish]

Originally Posted by moahunter

^all politicians lie/spin stuff, that's what they do. The whole misleading parliment thing is a joke when its a minority government and the opposition parties running the committees. I still don't see this as an issue that anyone other than fanatical harper haters will give a toss about a few accounting classification iregualities. Pork for a riding is no big deal, all governments do it (this isn't the same as using backhanders to fund a political party or personal friends, be it Mulroney or Adscam).

If it was Anne Mclellan funding TELUS world of science, or one of the many other things she helped Edmonton with, everyone would be cheering her on...

all/ most/ many/ some polititians do lie... but when they get caught (a la ad-scam of the Librals) they pay for it at the polls... Perhaps it is time for the PC's to pay the price at the polls.

[DiscoBandit]

Originally Posted by moahunter

^all politicians lie/spin stuff, that's what they do

Oh, so, it's okay then.

Originally Posted by moahunter

There was a survey a little while ago that asked if Canadians thought a billion for G8 was worth it, and surprisingly, most said it was.

"The June 10-13 telephone survey of 1,000 Canadians has a margin of error of 3.1 percentage points, 19 times in 20." Pretty poor thing to try to stand on.

I don't see this being an issue with any traction. Liberals would have done exactly same thing in power.

Prove it.

[moahunter]

Originally Posted by grish

all/ most/ many/ some polititians do lie... but when they get caught (a la ad-scam of the Librals) they pay for it at the polls... Perhaps it is time for the PC's to pay the price at the polls.

Whats a bet its not even in the news in a couple of days time? Its not even the top story now for most papers. There is nothing odd about this at all, its just pork, not personal or party enrichment, whether its done through the G8 budget or some other budget, its all the same.

[armin]

Originally Posted by moahunter

Whats a bet its not even in the news in a couple of days time? Its not even the top story now for most papers. There is nothing odd about this at all, its just pork, not personal or party enrichment, whether its done through the G8 budget or some other budget, its all the same.

The newspapers are pro Conservative and they've been downplaying Conservative follies for weeks if not months.

Harper could get caught eating a live kitten and between the news and party apologists, the headlines 2 days later would report it was self defense and give him a medal.

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by PrairieBoyinExile

The Auditor-General says the Harper government misinformed Parliament to win approval for a $50-million G8 fund that lavished money on dubious projects in a Conservative riding.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1979865/

Let's see all the Conservative shills try to defend this one.

Maybe you should take a look in the mirror? While on the subject of spin, misinformation, and misleading people (and for that matter - "shills"), do you think it's fair to leave out the fact the Auditor General has not released and, in fact, cannot release this report?

Or that the supposedly damning comment was in a leaked early draft of a report, and replaced in a later leaked draft, neither of which was complete, finished, or released to the public.

What you just wrote is misleading. Hardly fair of you to presumptively accuse anyone of being a shill for taking issue with something demonstrably an attempt at "spin".

Here is what the Auditor General did say:

“The Office of the Audit General of Canada remains the custodian of its reports until they are presented to the Speaker of the House of Commons for tabling,’’ Fraser said.

“I strongly caution the public to wait until our final report on the G8 Legacy Infrastructure Fund has been tabled in Parliament and made public.’’

Now that's being forthright, I should think.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by armin

The newspapers are pro Conservative and they've been downplaying Conservative follies for weeks if not months.

Ha!

You must not be reading the Globe and Mail.

[Marcel Petrin]

Globe and Mail tends to lean left, National Post leans right. Sun Media pretty much gave up any semblance of objectivity a couple years ago when Kory Teneycke took up employment there. None of this is a new development.

[Dialog]

• Muskoka Tourism gateway signs: $408,000

• Muskoka Tourism visitor information centre: $260,000

• Road improvements: $1,800,000

• Jack Garland North Bay Airport improvements: $3,510,745

• Highway 11 upgrades: $350,000

• Bracebridge Sportsplex emergency backup: $40,000

• Gateway signage: $150,000

• Annie Williams Park upgrades: $500,000

• Dowtown Bracebridge revitalization: $800,000

• Downtown Gravenhurst revitalization: $1,200,000

• Hunstville beautification and lighting: $106,100

• Port Sydney Beautification: $250,000

• Reconstruction of Deerhurst Drive: $1,989,088

• University of Waterloo G8 Centre expansion: $9,750,000

• G8 Centre: $17,110,912

• Town of Kearny Main Street beautification: $730,000

• Parry Sound beautification: $178,000

• Parry Sound downtown streetscaping: $1,143,750

• Town of Sundridge pedestrian crossing: $125,000

• Beautification of Sundridge: $750,000

• Burk’s Falls Town Centre improvements: $150,000

• Port Severn Gateway feature signage: $1,000,000

• Port Severn streetscape/linear parks: $1,000,000

• Roofed heritage plaque in Baysville: $38,500

• Baysville Community streetscape improvements: $117,000

• Lake of Bays Band Shell and public WC: $299,850

• Muskoka Lakes tourism signage: $250,000

• Bala Falls Road updgrades: $386,000

• Paignton House Road upgrades: $424,000

• Township of Perry road improvements: $100,000

• Seguin Township beautification/streetscapes: $745,000

• South River Community Beautification: $65,000

[MrOilers]

Costs and spending can always be disputed and debated (and they should). But this is yet again, another non-issue as far as I am concerned (like the people denied participation at the harper rally).

The Liberals have already tried to play it up as a massive scandal. But at this point most people know who they are voting for already, and couldn't give a damn about all these petty "scandalettes" that the NDP and Liberals keep trying to use to take down Harper.

[grish]

^ similar "petty scandalettes" were the reasons Liberals lost power under Chretien/ Martin. It was primarily the "ethics" that Harper pushed in winning the minority mandate 5 years ago.

At that time the liberal party supporters have put their partisan pride aside and give their vote to another party because of these "scandalettes". It is time for the conservative party supporters to temporarily abandon their choice to send a message. If you are elected on the ethics mandate, you should be ethical.

You cannot dismiss these as mere scandalettes simply because harper came in under a promise to bring ethics back. What has happened is in fact the opposite of what they had promised. This is never ok and should never be excused.

[Carbon-14]

I'm not sure how this is all news. The Government had already announced that this spending wasn't directly related to the G8.

Heres an article from 19 Nov 2010
http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/forum...ote=1&p=362895.

Federal officials said much of the generous funding for G8 “legacy” projects was never meant for the summit, but rather as payback to people in the Parry Sound-Muskoka region, a riding held by Industry Minister Tony Clement.

So who was misled?

[Dialog]

Goodness the Cons have an obedient base!

[grish]

Carbon-14,

Aparently they asked the parliament to approve the funding by asking to improve the border security and transfer points, but then turned around to spend the money on other projects including playgrounds etc in areas that are not directly connected to the summit location.

It isn't what was said to get the soundbite that is important. It is what was said to our elected representatives–our Members of Parilament–to get their approval on our behalf that is important. If they lie about where these money is going, can we trust them with managing our taxes appropriately in general? We already have other large expenditures–the purchase of the jets and the funding of the crime legislation–that they did not fully disclose. Can this particular government under Harper be trusted with spending our money in the way that they describe it?

Here comes the biggest and usual metaphor of the right wing thought:

If this was a publically traded corporation and the board of directors had misled the shareholders in spending the money (asking for approval for one project, but spenind it on another), would that board be turfed and replaced?

I think the answer is "yes".

[moahunter]

^^x2, as I said above, its just pork. I don't love it, but I accept that all parties do it. In the US they call them "earmarks". Heck, as I mentioned earlier, many on this board who criticise this would have been rolling over in joy if it were Anne Mclellean giving to her riding rather than Tony Clement to his riding. Its hypocrosy for people to complain local conservative MPs do nothing for Edmonton ridings, then get upset at Tony Clement standing up for his riding - this is political reality pure and simple.

[grish]

moahunter,
that was not what happened with Chretien. The Libs got replaced because of similar politics with ad scams. You are wrong on this one. The lib votes moved to the cons and the ndp. Time for con voters to hold their party to account. It is the same lack of ethics so the election result should be the same.

ps you example with Anne McLellan... whether or not she did something wrong, good old Laurie Hawn was handing out brown envelopes with party pamplets saying "if you were a liberal insider, this would be stuffed with cash". He won that election on a suggestion that the liberals were unethical. now the tables have turned with the exception that Edmonton never gets anything out of the Feds.

[MrOilers]

Originally Posted by Carbon-14

I'm not sure how this is all news. The Government had already announced that this spending wasn't directly related to the G8.

Heres an article from 19 Nov 2010
http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/forum...ote=1&p=362895.

So who was misled?

Thanks. This illustrates the clear anti-Harper and anti-Conservative slant that too many of these news stories have.

Sure, they don't flat-out lie, but they obviously omit the important details that show there really is no scandal surrounding this at all.

Demonize the Conservatives all you want, but at least admit that there's a lot of rotten journalism out there that's making them look bad. But nope, Harper's enemies will blindly accept any half-truth in the media as evidence of corruption no matter how weak.

[moahunter]

^^its totally different. Giving pork to an electorate like Anne Mclellan did, and Tony Clement is doing, is not the same as organizing a backhander into the party pot, or Mulroney perhaps accepting a bribe from an airbus consortium. The later two are imoral scandals (Liberals and Consertvatives), the first two are legitimate Canadian politics as normal for the Liberals and Conservatives.

[grish]

Mr. Oliers, see this explanation to Carbon-14 comment.

Originally Posted by grish

Carbon-14,

Aparently they asked the parliament to approve the funding by asking to improve the border security and transfer points, but then turned around to spend the money on other projects including playgrounds etc in areas that are not directly connected to the summit location.

It isn't what was said to get the soundbite that is important. It is what was said to our elected representatives–our Members of Parilament–to get their approval on our behalf that is important. If they lie about where these money is going, can we trust them with managing our taxes appropriately in general? We already have other large expenditures–the purchase of the jets and the funding of the crime legislation–that they did not fully disclose. Can this particular government under Harper be trusted with spending our money in the way that they describe it?

Here comes the biggest and usual metaphor of the right wing thought:

If this was a publically traded corporation and the board of directors had misled the shareholders in spending the money (asking for approval for one project, but spenind it on another), would that board be turfed and replaced?

I think the answer is "yes".

[moahunter]

^so were you upset when Anne Mclellan was doing the same thing Grish? It was equally as transparent, Clement hasn't hidden this anymore than she did.

[grish]

Originally Posted by moahunter

^^its totally different. Giving pork to an electorate like Anne Mclellan did, and Tony Clement is doing, is not the same as organizing a backhander into the party pot, or Mulroney perhaps accepting a bribe from an airbus consortium. The later two are imoral scandals (Liberals and Consertvatives), the first two are legitimate Canadian politics as normal for the Liberals and Conservatives.

getting approval under false information is being deliberately untruthful with the elctorate through misleading the parliament. It is our money and I want the money to be spent wisely and under a full disclosure. You cannot excuse inappropriate behaviour of the party of your choice. Wrong is wrong.

[grish]

Originally Posted by moahunter

^so were you upset when Anne Mclellan was doing the same thing Grish? It was equally as transparent, Clement hasn't hidden this anymore than she did.

such as? when has Anne McLellan asked parliament to fund one thing, but spent the money on another?

[MrOilers]

Originally Posted by moahunter

^so were you upset when Anne Mclellan was doing the same thing Grish?

Of course not. If Liberals do it, it is working for their constituents. If the Conservatives do the exact same thing, it is a scandal.

[grish]

Originally Posted by moahunter

^so were you upset when Anne Mclellan was doing the same thing Grish? It was equally as transparent, Clement hasn't hidden this anymore than she did.

ps... Enough people were upset with the Libs that they lost the power. I am asking for similar with the conservatives under Harper.

[moahunter]

Originally Posted by grish

such as? when has Anne McLellan asked parliament to fund one thing, but spent the money on another?

McLellan arranged Federal funding for the TELUS world of Science, Clement has arranged funding for his electorate. There is no difference, it doesn't matter squat which bill you pass it through as long as you are transparent, and Clement has been, which you can see if you read above.

[grish]

Originally Posted by MrOilers

Of course not. If Liberals do it, it is working for their constituents. If the Conservatives do the exact same thing, it is a scandal.

that is not the history of Canada. The liberal government fell because of the ethics scandals. Nothing else. The economy was doing great under them. The only reason people took their votes away was the ethics. Suggesting that liberal supporters continue to vote for the Libs is completely false. They would still be in power.

[moahunter]

Originally Posted by grish

ps... Enough people were upset with the Libs that they lost the power. I am asking for similar with the conservatives under Harper.

If you can't comprehend the difference between pork to an electorate, versus a backhander be it personal or party (which both former conservatives and Liberals have done in the past and paid the price for), then you are not going to understand why this story has no legs.

[grish]

Originally Posted by moahunter

McLellan arranged Federal funding for the TELUS world of Science, Clement has arranged funding for his electorate. There is no difference, it doesn't matter squat which bill you pass it through as long as you are transparent, and Clement has been, which you can see if you read above.

did she promise the parliament that the money would be spent on the border crossing and used the cash instead for the Telus World of Science? If she did, then she would have acted similar to Clement. If she didn't, your example is inappropriate.

[Carbon-14]

Originally Posted by grish

Carbon-14,

Aparently they asked the parliament to approve the funding by asking to improve the border security and transfer points, but then turned around to spend the money on other projects including playgrounds etc in areas that are not directly connected to the summit location.

Thanks Grish. Much more useful than some snide comment. Can you give a reference for this though?

But again, I have to say this isn't "news", is it? The Liberals and NDP were fuming mad. Fair enough. But then they forgot about it until a draft of a report is leaked? Well, I'm not convinced.

[grish]

Originally Posted by moahunter

If you comprehend the difference between pork to an electorate, versus a backhander be it personal or party (which both former conservatives and Liberals have done in the past and paid the price for), then you are not going to understand why this story has no legs.

lets not get into who comprehends what... it might get personal and I don't want to go down that path.

I am talking about Clement asking the Parliament to approve expenditure on border security and then use the funds for playgrounds and local projects that benefitted his friends. He has misled the parliament about the intent of the cash. It is inappropriate to do no matter who does it. It isn't "pork", it is misuse of public funds after misleading the elected members of parilament and all of us by proxy.

[moahunter]

Originally Posted by grish

did she promise the parliament that the money would be spent on the border crossing and used the cash instead for the Telus World of Science?

Where was that promised?

Federal officials said much of the generous funding for G8 “legacy” projects was never meant for the summit, but rather as payback to people in the Parry Sound-Muskoka region, a riding held by Industry Minister Tony Clement.

If you don't think bills contain pork for all sorts of things, including pet projects of Liberals and NDP to win support for them, then you are deluding yourself.

[grish]

Originally Posted by Carbon-14

Thanks Grish. Much more useful than some snide comment. Can you give a reference for this though?

But again, I have to say this isn't "news", is it? The Liberals and NDP were fuming mad. Fair enough. But then they forgot about it until a draft of a report is leaked? Well, I'm not convinced.

No problem...

Here is where I got my information from:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1981130/

Specifically:

The Auditor-General concluded the government obtained Parliament’s approval for the expenditures by putting it under the heading of “funding for border infrastructure” in a spending bill.

[grish]

see reply to carbon-14...

Originally Posted by moahunter

Where was that promised?

If you don't think bills contain pork for all sorts of things, including pet projects of Liberals and NDP to win support for them, then you are deluding yourself.

[moahunter]

Originally Posted by grish

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1981130/

Specifically:

And where does she say that was not business as usual for Canadian political parties in power? The earlier draft was corrected, and any mention of illegailty removed (as its not illegal). The final report has not been released.

[MrOilers]

This is only a scandal if you spin it to sound like one. Nothing to see here.

[Sasquatch]

Originally Posted by Dialog

• Parry Sound beautification: $178,000

• Parry Sound downtown streetscaping: $1,143,750

Main street in Parry Sound is just a little wider now - do not see any beautification yet but there is much construction about town. Of all the conservatives, I like Tony - the rest I'd throw out with the dish water. Well, except perhaps for Rona!

[grish]

Originally Posted by MrOilers

This is only a scandal if you spin it to sound like one. Nothing to see here.

and that is why the Liberals held on to being the opposition in 2006 rather being completely whiped out. They were unethical, but they had enough supporters who decided to dismiss their unethical behaviour as a non-issue for them.

I imagine something similar to happen here and now. There will be people who will decide to close their eyes on the lack of ethics and go with their choice. I just hope that some poeple will place their ethics expectation of the people in power above their past allegiances.

[MrOilers]

Are you suggesting that this incident is ANYTHING like Adscam? The two are not even close.

[etownboarder]

Notice how it's always a "mistake" or a "misunderstanding?" Can't anyone just do their job competently? At the rate that MPs seems to screw things up, it's a wonder they still have jobs. If we screwed up that many times, we would all be fired so fast, we wouldn't even have time to apply for EI... but then again, MPs would receive such a great severance package that they wouldn't need to apply for EI.

Tories used praise for Liberals to defend summit costs: Fraser
Day apologizes, says 'proper quote' will be added to Tory dissent report
By Greg Weston, CBC News Posted: Apr 11, 2011 4:07 PM ET Last Updated: Apr 11, 2011

Canada's auditor general has rebuked the Conservatives for recycling an unrelated quote by her about a previous Liberal government's security spending in a parliamentary report on the costs of the G8/G20 summits in Ontario last summer, CBC News has learned.

The Conservatives' report, presented as a dissenting opinion to the Commons the morning Parliament was dissolved last month, quotes Sheila Fraser giving high marks to the Harper government for prudent spending on the summits.

The report quoted the auditor general as saying: “We found that the processes and controls around that were very good, and that the monies were spent as they were intended to be spent.”

Auditor General Sheila Fraser says the Conservatives used a quote from her in a report that had nothing to do with the G8 and G20 summits. (Pawel Dwulit/Canadian Press)
But in a scathing letter addressed to members of a Commons committee on Friday, which was received by the clerk and members on Monday, Fraser said the quote had nothing to do with the summits.

Full Story: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/...ag-fraser.html

[etownboarder]

Originally Posted by MrOilers

Are you suggesting that this incident is ANYTHING like Adscam? The two are not even close.

They're starting to add up though... 1+50 doesn't equal 1.

[armin]

Originally Posted by MrOilers

Are you suggesting that this incident is ANYTHING like Adscam? The two are not even close.

No, the Conservatives have already wasted way more than the ad-scam.

A billion dollars for the G20. You can't justify that kind of spending no matter how you want to spin it.

In your defense, Grish is wrong. The media dropped supporting the Liberals saying they'd been in power too long.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Pres...dian_newspaper)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Glo...litical_stance

[edmonton daily photo]

Originally Posted by MrOilers

This is only a scandal if you spin it to sound like one. Nothing to see here.

This may not be a scandal, but it isn't an example of prudent fiscal "conservatism" either.

We should be FURIOUS over this in Edmonton. There is no reason for the gov't to have turned down Expo. The Conservatives wanted Expo in Quebec City, where they could spend their way to more seats in the east.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo

We should be FURIOUS over this in Edmonton. There is no reason for the gov't to have turned down Expo.

And yet, we're not! It's not on the election radar at all. Hmmm...

[hosshumard]

Originally Posted by moahunter

There was a survey a little while ago that asked if Canadians thought a billion for G8 was worth it, and surprisingly, most said it was. I don't see this being an issue with any traction. Liberals would have done exactly same thing in power.

You opinion.

The point is the Liberals didn't.

The Tories did and have a proven track record of treating our Parliament with disrespect and contempt.

If the Grits could offer up a leader who was halfway dynamic, Harper would be gone very quickly...he holds office only because there is no clear alternative.

[Turtle]

17 days and counting no ignatieff in Alberta.

[hosshumard]

Originally Posted by Turtle

17 days and counting no ignatieff in Alberta.

The more cynical among us might say, "why bother".....

[Dialog]

Originally Posted by hosshumard

If the Grits could offer up a leader who was halfway dynamic, Harper would be gone very quickly...he holds office only because there is no clear alternative.

This is why I'm hoping, in a way, for a third Conservative minority; leadership reviews will commence in the Liberals and Conservative Parties not long after!

[PrairieBoyinExile]

Originally Posted by Turtle

17 days and counting no ignatieff in Alberta.

So? There are about 19 days left and he will definitely come to Alberta. This will probably include Edmonton.

[edmonton daily photo]

Originally Posted by Adam

And yet, we're not! It's not on the election radar at all. Hmmm...

Wait till the debate tonight..

[grish]

Originally Posted by MrOilers

Are you suggesting that this incident is ANYTHING like Adscam?

yes. Both were dishonest and illegal uses of public money by elected MPs.

Originally Posted by MrOilers

The two are not even close.

explain what makes them different.

[MrOilers]

Originally Posted by grish

explain what makes them different.

Refer to moahunter's post in post #25.

[whynow99]

"If lying is the basis of the Christian Reform Alliance Party, and Harper was their boss, then this lie is just one more stain on their miserable souls. At least we got to see and feel their corrupt values over these last few elections. Can I hear an AMEN!!!

Please vote Anyone BUT Conservative.......ABC !!!"

[grish]

Originally Posted by MrOilers

Refer to moahunter's post in post #25.

he didn't explain anything. please provide detail why you think those two are different wastes of public money.