City uses way too much sand on our roads

[Medwards]

My eyes dont need examining. There's piles of sands on both roads. The road in beaumont looks a lot less travelled than Scona Road... I bet the traffic count on scona road is 4x that of the collector road shown in beaumont.

not to mention, Scona road is hilly, and beaumont road shown completely flat.

[Edmonton PRT]

Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT

Medwards, knowing that you would say just that, I took pictures yesterday in Beaumont and Edmonton. I'll post them when I get time.

Medwards, I can accurately predict four days in advance what inane point you will bring up.

You want hill comparisons, here are hill comparisons. Sorry that I did not bring my surveyors transit with me, otherwise I would have measured the road gradient for you as well. Beaumont translates into English as nice mountain or nice hill.

Knowing that you would want to compare apples with apples, here is again the downhill section of Scona Road. This section looks pretty flat to me.




Same day in Beaumont. Just coming up 50th street, cresting the hill, the main artery through Beaumont. I was three vehicles behind the sanding truck. As you can see, the uphill section has less sand than the downhill section of Scona Road. The downhill side of 50th street has even less sand on this well maintained road in Beaumont.

[Medwards]

Still not seeing the difference. Sand vs Sand.

Again, your comparing a major throughfare with a minor collector road....

fail. I can accurately predict your next post will be a fail too, and so on and so forth. Fail. Efficiently, effectively, fail.

[Edmonton PRT]

50th street is not a minor collector road, it is part of highway 814 which carrys about 19,000 cars a day. That is roughly half of Scona Road's traffic.


It may be hard for some to see a difference while their head is buried in the sand...

[jadzia2000]

Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT

50th street is not a minor collector road, it is part of highway 814 which carrys about 19,000 cars a day. That is roughly half of Scona Road's traffic.


It may be hard for some to see a difference while their head is buried in the sand...

I may be off base here, but it's not really the sand I'm complaining about it's the overall method as to how the snow removal crew is scraping the snow off the roads.

It looks like they're just taking the layer of snow off, just enough to allow the drivers to use the road. But what I find is that there's sheets of ice stuck to the road. So the sanders come and dump that sand to offset the slippery conditions. The following day, it looks like the sand is buried in the ice which doesn't help the slippery conditions at all.

JMO!

[Medwards]

Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT

50th street is not a minor collector road, it is part of highway 814 which carrys about 19,000 cars a day. That is roughly half of Scona Road's traffic.


It may be hard for some to see a difference while their head is buried in the sand...

and roughly about half the amount of sand.... if that.I really think you are grasping at straws here.

[Edmonton PRT]

Wait a second, I thought that you could not see a difference?

Originally Posted by Medwards

Still not seeing the difference. Sand vs Sand.

&

Originally Posted by Medwards

I can't see much difference. Sand on road in example 1 looks near or about the same amount of sand on road 2 .

Now you see a difference????

Looks to me like all you are doing is Trolling this thread with nothing to add and are only here to aggravate the discussion.

[Doug]

The amount of sand that gets used on the river valley roads is obscene. Does the city have some type of a formula for the amount of sand that we use or is it a case of sending the trucks out and letting the operators dump as much as they want? If we were to take a pole I believe that road maintenance (or lack of) is one of the leading complaints that people have in this city. Is the city trying to develop better ways to maintain our roads?

[RTA]

^ A part of the problem is that your definition of "better" might not be the same as everyone else's. If the city suddenly used less sand next winter, do you honestly think there won't be complaints about that, particularly from those who experience an accident (regardless of whether the amount of sand would have made any difference)? The river valley roads are hills, some of them quite steep; I'd rather the city ensure they are well-sanded than risk the consequences of under-sanding them.

[Medwards]

Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT

Wait a second, I thought that you could not see a difference?

&

Now you see a difference????

Looks to me like all you are doing is Trolling this thread with nothing to add and are only here to aggravate the discussion.

your name calling is getting overboard. I'm not a troll because my opinion differs from yours. I'm not trying to aggravate the conversation because I think differently then you. I'm expressing my opinion, which, like it or not, does have value and merit.

FAIL 'gain

[Doug]

What is the problem with trying to improve the way we do things? Why is it part of "the problem" when we question on how things are done? If there is a more efficent way of dealing with our icy roads I would hope we are looking into it.

[Medwards]

What if you don't see a problem with the way things are done... What if I believe the sand, and the amount used is in the right porportions for our climate and infrastructure?
I'd sure hate if we decided to start using a lot more salt or other harmful chemicals on the road.
It's okay to question the way things are done, but when the question includes a fault statement with no real facts backing the statement, it gets a little tiring. The original poster of this thread seems to take immense joy in trying to chatise our city Transportation department in anything it does.

I also don't know how we are supposed to quantify how much sand has been put down, and how much sand is approriate in each given scenario.
I believe sand is a safe and environmentally friendly approach to keeping our city streets navigable and safe to drive.

[Edmonton PRT]

Doug is the original poster.

[Medwards]

^ pardon me, but you knew what I meant.

[soycd]

I agree with Mark. To compare Scona Road and a section of SH 814 is folly.

Traffic count for Scona road > 42,000 vehicles/day. See page 45 of this pdf -> http://www.edmonton.ca/transportatio...WDT_Report.pdf

Trafic count for SH 814 > 4,890 vehicles/day. See pdf -> http://www.transportation.alberta.ca...ATRAADTMap.pdf

Scona Road hill can be backed up during rush hour and for stop/start traffic you NEED sand for traction. This is not so much the case with the hill @ Beaumont as you don't encounter start/stop traffic as it is more free-flowing.

Given the conditions (gradiant and traffic counts) I don't believe the hill is being sanded in excess.

[Doug]

Oh well, I guess there are only a few of us that see this as a problem. I'll just wait for a couple of months and comment on the thread that complains about how slow our spring cleanup is and how dirty this city is in the spring.

[Edmonton PRT]

That traffic count is south of Beaumont. North of Beaumont has severral times as much traffic, all the commuters coming into Edmonton.

If you want, I'll take another picture of a collector road in Edmonton with low traffic counts and on a flat stretch of road. I'll take core samples of the sand layers, set up snow gages and temperature monitoring. No matter, you still won't believe that 130,000 tons of sand is a little excessive IMHO.

[RTA]

^^ The complaints in the spring are about how long it takes before the city sends out the cleaning trucks to clean up the sand, not the amount of sand that needs to be cleaned up.

[soycd]

Originally Posted by Doug

I'll just wait for a couple of months and comment on the thread that complains about how slow our spring cleanup is and how dirty this city is in the spring.

There are several threads to choose from to insert those comments. :-]

[Medwards]

soycd, its matt, not mark, but thanks.

My guess of 4x the amount of traffic was wrong. its actually 10x... (and not the 2x E_FAIL_PRT misled us with)

[soycd]

Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT

That traffic count is south of Beaumont. North of Beaumont has severral times as much traffic, all the commuters coming into Edmonton.

I understand the location, but not 10X as much traffic. Maybe if you were to increase the count by 20% at the very most.

Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT

If you want, I'll take another picture of a collector road in Edmonton with low traffic counts and on a flat stretch of road.

FTR, Scona Road is an arterial roadway, not a collector. 50th Ave through Beaumont would also be considered an arterial roadway.

Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT

No matter, you still won't believe that 130,000 tons of sand is a little excessive IMHO.

130,000 tonnes is what it is. Climatic conditions change weekly, daily, hourly. Given the thousands of km of roads that need to be maintained (and more than once per winter) it is going to take a lot of bushels of sand.

[Edmonton PRT]

Originally Posted by Medwards

The original poster of this thread seems to take immense joy in trying to chatise our city Transportation department in anything it does.

Not just me. There were hundreds of complaints to City Council and front page headlines in the Edmonton Journal this week about the poor snow plowing job that the Transportation Department did in the past weeks and the tripling of the cost of winter road maintenance. I am not the only one complaining.

Originally Posted by soycd

I understand the location, but not 10X as much traffic. Maybe if you were to increase the count by 20% at the very most.

If you look at the 2007 traffic flow map http://www.edmonton.ca/transportatio...c_Flow_Map.pdf in the lower corner the traffic on 50th street south of Ellerslie Road is 19,000 per day. Traffic flow has increased in the past three years since this report and there is lots of local traffic within Beaumont where I took those two pictures.

FTR, Scona Road is an arterial roadway, not a collector. 50th Ave through Beaumont would also be considered an arterial roadway.

I was remarking that the some said that the roads were not comparable. I agree that Scona and 50th street are both arterial roads but with different traffic volumes. I remarks that I would take pictures of a collector road in Edmonton to compare to 50th street in Beaumont of about the same traffic volumes to compare sanding.

130,000 tonnes is what it is. Climatic conditions change weekly, daily, hourly. Given the thousands of km of roads that need to be maintained (and more than once per winter) it is going to take a lot of bushels of sand.

I agree that it takes a lot of sand. Several years back when we had lots of icy conditions, we used 180,000 tons of sand. Beaumont has the same conditions as Edmonton. Beyond the claims of some that they could not see differences in the amount of sand, if you look at the pictures or go see how they maintain the roads in Beaumont, there is a marked difference.

Operationally, I see sanding trucks in Edmonton, place sand on packed snow which does not increase traction, on icy snow, yes; on packed snow, no. Others have remarked that they see sanding trucks equipped with plows, place sand on freshly fallen snow, not plowing it first. As seen on the pictures on Scona Road and on many roads in Edmonton, it is a common occurrence that sanding trucks place more sand on well sanded streets that have no snow or ice, just sand and brine. The roads appear wet because of the brine but are not slippery.

Several posters remark that Scona road has more traffic than my comparison and that more traffic requires more sand. While it may be true that more traffic tends to throw the sand to the shoulder quicker, require more sand but this is not a lineal requirement.

For example if we assume that sanding is a lineal relationship, then a road with 100,000 cars a day requires 100 times more sand than a road with 1,000 cars a day which is not true. Most road require a minimum sanding occasionally whether it has 1 car or 100,000 as they sand residential roads too. Furthermore, busy roads get plowing earlier and more throughly which reduces the packing of snow and ice build up. The traffic itself tends to break down the ice and literally wears down the ice, reducing the amount of sand required.

Highways are a good example as there is very little sand required even if the traffic volume is high and the vehicle speed is high which throws any sand very quickly. Sanding a road is not a linear distribution and you should look at the amount of excess sand on our roads and the mess that then has to be cleaned up in spring.

[Medwards]

Do you not see the difference between Beaumont and Edmonton?

Please use a city of representatively the same size and dimensions of Edmonton. And of similar climatic conditions. Winnipeg for example.

Like come on... Beaumont versus Edmonton? this is really really grasping at straws. Something you seem to do on regular frequency.

The sand is there for our safety. Your making molehills into Sand mountains here. Don't you have something better to cry foul over? whaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnn

[Edmonton PRT]

I have lived in both communities, I know the difference.


Medwards, a road is a road, it is how you manage it and the amount of sand you use per road mile. I never spoke about the total amount of sand for an entire city. Obviously if Edmonton has 100 times the kilometres of road, they will need 100 times more sand. What I am saying is that it appears they are using proportionally more, that is to say, 150 times or 200 times.

I demonstrated two road to road comparisons with photos, explanations and reasoning. Don't throw up red herrings and stop your inane rants. They do not add to a healthy debate.

[Medwards]

Again, you are comparing a community of what? 30,000? to 800,000.

There is a very, very large difference here. Please use something more a kin to what we see here in Edmonton. Your pictures don't really show much either. It's tough to determine how much sand is underneath the recent snowfall.

You demonstrated an apple and compared it with an orange and came up with illogical explanations and reasoning. I'll I' leave the red herrings to you. You can keep trying to disqualify my viewpoint all you want... A healthy debate doesn't come when everyone agrees.

How much sand per km is the right amount, in your humble opinion. What is the threshold here? You like to throw around numbers 130,000 tons. How much should we have used to this point, and where and when would you've saved this amount? I'll like to see your rational about how and when and where the city can save or reduce its sand output.

Lets use some real numbers here. km of road sanded / amount of sand. then compare.

You see fit that ETS should equiped all there buses with Winter tires for a few odd days a year its required, but then you moan and groan because the city puts down sand? how can anyone get where your trying to come from here... your slant against ETS and Edmonton Transportation is very apparent.

[Edmonton PRT]

Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT

I have lived in both communities, I know the difference.
Medwards, a road is a road, it is how you manage it and the amount of sand you use per road mile. I never spoke about the total amount of sand for an entire city. Obviously if Edmonton has 100 times the kilometres of road, they will need 100 times more sand. What I am saying is that it appears they are using proportionally more, that is to say, 150 times or 200 times.

Yes Beaumont is a community of 10,000 and Edmonton, a city of 750,000

The amount of roads is roughly proportional say 1:75

If Edmonton is using 130,000 tons of sand then Beaumont would proportionally use 1700 tons of sand.

If Beaumont is using less sand and not having more accidents (I will explain this too, p-r-o-p-o-r-t-i-o-n-a-l-y) then maybe they are managing their winter roads better. Even on their busiest intersections in spring there is less sand visible in Beaumont than a collector road like 76th avenue in Edmonton. If they are using only 1,000 tons of sand in Beaumont or even 600 tons, this would be proportionally a huge savings in Edmonton if you extrapolate it out. That would reduce the amount of sand from 130,000 tons (vs 1700) to 75,000 (vs 1000) or 45,000 (vs 600).

And as I stated before, the cost of sand is not the issue. It is the cost in manpower, equipment and fuel to haul and place that sand and the amount of cost to sweep up and haul away that sand, vacuum out catch basins and recycle all that sand. Maybe this is one reason that our winter road maintenance costs have tripled in the past few years.

We have one of the highest asthma rates in the world. One wonders if the amount of dust in the air that is thrown up in the spring and all through the summer months, may be a contributing factor in our collective health. Every time a bus or large vehicle passes, they throw up a cloud of dust, even after the streets are swept, there is residual sand and dust on the streets that is stirred up. We have experienced drought conditions and this lack of rain worsens the dust problem as there is not enough rain to wash this dust into the storm sewers.

I stated a comparison of a section of road or the amount of sand per kilometre. The size of the community has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with this discussion at all.

As far as the amount of sand needed and the wasteful practise of placing more sand on an already well sanded road, you have not addressed this point at all.

You assume that 130,000 tons of sand is the optimum amount that the Transportation Department is using. This road management policies might be flawed and there may be a better way to manage our roads. If they made such a mess of recent plowing and $600,000 was wasted last week alone, why would you assume that they are doing a perfect job with sanding and plowing during the rest of the winter?

Please continue with your "apple and orange" comments. We all look forward to them.

[Medwards]

You keep comparing apples to oranges, and I will keep making the comments about it.

You're comparing roads one road to another road that has 10x the amount of traffic on it. Good grief.

[Doug]

I completely agree with PRT Edmonton. My point is, we need to make sure we are doing the most efficent job possible. Maybe we are but, it is my opinion, that we should be looking at ways to improve how we manage our roads. Does it not bother anyone that the snow removal budget has gone from 15 million in 1999 to approximately 45 million this year and yet we have seen very little (if any) improvement in our snow removal. Where is all that money going?

[Hilman]

I would think a large change in population might contribute to a large portion of it. How many more km of roadways were constructed in that 10 year period? Add that to inflation and your numbers don't look that scary anymore.

1999 648,284
2009 782,439
Difference = 134,155 or 19%

[Doug]

Good point, I'm sure that's part of the reason. The population went up 19% but the operating budget went up much more than that.

[Edmonton PRT]

Originally Posted by Medwards

You keep comparing apples to oranges, and I will keep making the comments about it.

You're comparing roads one road to another road that has 10x the amount of traffic on it. Good grief.

19,000 to 45,000 is not 10 x

[Edmonton PRT]

Originally Posted by Doug

I completely agree with PRT Edmonton. My point is, we need to make sure we are doing the most efficent job possible. Maybe we are but, it is my opinion, that we should be looking at ways to improve how we manage our roads. Does it not bother anyone that the snow removal budget has gone from 15 million in 1999 to approximately 45 million this year and yet we have seen very little (if any) improvement in our snow removal. Where is all that money going?

Another observation today. This morning I was driving in several parts of the city and noticed that since we have not had a snow fall in a week, the arterial roads are snow and ice free and some are drying out in places.

I was on 97 street at noon between 118th and 127th, where the road was drying in places and damp sections. Sure enough a sanding truck was depositing sand on partially dry roads with no ice or snow.

[Doug]

Happens on a regular basis, why?

[Medwards]

it may not snow, but that doesn't mean snow can't track on to the road from the side streets, or have frost/condensation freezing to it at night, especially when its been humid. W

notably, we've also had 1-2 cms of snow in some parts of the city, and trace amounts everywhere else.

[Edmonton PRT]

No snow, no sand, sanding humidity???

I said it was in the morning, dry roads, it snowed in the afternoon. I guess preemptive sanding?

Are you a transportation department martyr, willing to defend them without question?

[Jimbo]

It's possible the sanding was in response to a phone call about slippery conditions. Sometimes the "dry" roads are the most slippery, as a fine layer of snow gets buffed to a slippery finish, especially at corners, when people spin their tires to go after stopping.

I can't say for certain in the situation you're describing, but I know it's something I watch out for on my bike. The corner on 116 st going west on 103 ave is a good )bad) example. It's even hard to put your foot down when stopped, because the ice gets so polished.

I don't like the sand come spring, but it sure makes a difference for me in winter. I do wish we'd plow the streets properly though, and remove the snow.

[jadzia2000]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

It's possible the sanding was in response to a phone call about slippery conditions. Sometimes the "dry" roads are the most slippery, as a fine layer of snow gets buffed to a slippery finish, especially at corners, when people spin their tires to go after stopping.

I can't say for certain in the situation you're describing, but I know it's something I watch out for on my bike. The corner on 116 st going west on 103 ave is a good )bad) example. It's even hard to put your foot down when stopped, because the ice gets so polished.

I don't like the sand come spring, but it sure makes a difference for me in winter. I do wish we'd plow the streets properly though, and remove the snow.

I agree, Jimbo.

109th street and the downtown areas have not even been touched after the weekend snowfall.

I wonder if the roads would be icey if the snow was removed almost instantly.

I've always thought that Edmonton does a ****-poor job at removing snow every year.

[Doug]

If the snow was removed from our roads properly they would dry off faster, lessening the need for so much sand. They would dry out sooner and as a result there would be less damage done on the thaw and freeze cycle, meaning less pot holes during the warm spells. Spring cleanup could also start sooner because the boulevards would dry out quicker allowing for the sweepers to do their jobs. How about we take 20% of the money we spend on outside consultants each year and re-invest it in properly maintaining our roads.

[Edmonton PRT]

Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT

If you want, I'll take another picture of a collector road in Edmonton with low traffic counts and on a flat stretch of road.

Here are pictures taken yesterday on Edmonton roads.

I went out on Saturday morning and was driving down the overly sanded 76th ave and to my dismay, along comes a sanding truck that places another layer of sand on top. He then turned around and did the other direction lane as well. I went back home, got out my camera and took some photos. I took a number of pictures and refute claims that my comparison to Beaumont was not correct because Scona road has more traffic than 50th Street in Edmonton and therefore required more sanding.

One argument taken by some posters was that roads with more traffic require more sand. I challenge that assumption.


Here is Scona road on the incline out of the river valley. ~45,000 cars per day, not much sand on the road.


Example of over sanding: Same time, on 76th Avenue, in the Mill Creek dip no ice or snow present on the road and small patches of dry road but nonetheless sanding trucks applied more sand twice/direction before 9:00 am. There are about 6,000 cars per day on this section.


Here is a flat section of 99th Street where you see minimal use of sand. About 45,000 cars per day.



Here is 76th Avenue on a flat section in similar condition, no snow, no ice on road, with excessive amounts of sand used. There was so much sand, it reduced traction. ~6,000 cars per day.




Here is a transit only stop where the drying conditions are clearly seen. The amount of sand used is a waste of taxpayers money.

[Doug]

I agree 100% however with the current temperature in the minus 10 degree range the city is using 94% sand and 6% salt. Why do they need so much is a good question. Most roads in the city are like this. Good luck cleaning up the mess in the spring time. Just think, today all the roads will be re-sanded so they will be adding to the accumulation! I don't know why we don't use a higher concentration of salt to melt away some of the snow, Calgary uses all salt and it they have traction issues they use crushed stone, no sand.

[Old Dawg]

Originally Posted by Doug

I agree 100% however with the current temperature in the minus 10 degree range the city is using 94% sand and 6% salt. Why do they need so much is a good question. Most roads in the city are like this. Good luck cleaning up the mess in the spring time. Just think, today all the roads will be re-sanded so they will be adding to the accumulation! I don't know why we don't use a higher concentration of salt to melt away some of the snow, Calgary uses all salt and it they have traction issues they use crushed stone, no sand.

I overheard the Mayor this morning on CBC reiterating that removing snow with a heated machine such as Toronto uses would put salt and sand in the storm sewer system. ( He thought that may be ecologically unsound)

Three things wrong with this:

1. (salt/abrasive) If you dont put it down you dont have to pick it up.
2. The machine "settles the sand' and it is removed ( recovered)
3. Quite obviously if you do nothing until spring then all the salt has already leached into the sewer system. ( I find that ecologically unsound)

[Chump]

First of all I am of the general opinion that sand is not overused - as an overall general rule.

However,

When I look at a photo like the one PRT showed above of 76th ave in the mill creek dip - I wonder if there isn't a way to pass over a road such as that one with some sort of equipment that would redistribute the sand that is piled up between the lanes and tire grooves? Just eyeballing that photo I would think that there seems to be enough sand there that would serve the purpose if only there was a way to spread it out evenly. That might save a few trips with the sanding truck here and there over the course of a season. Obviously that wouldn't appy to every road necessarily.

Maybe something like a street sweeper that doesn't collect the sand, just drops it out the back evenly?

[Edmonton PRT]

In the 15 minutes between when the sanding truck passed a secod time and till I got my camera, the sand had already migrated off the "tire zone" and onto the margins. That was probably after 20-30 cars or so had passed.

The point was, there was not any sand required at all that day as there was no ice or snow on the road.

[MrOilers]

Originally Posted by Chump

I wonder if there isn't a way to pass over a road such as that one with some sort of equipment that would redistribute the sand that is piled up between the lanes and tire grooves?

Now THAT sounds like a good idea!

I can imagine some kind of vehicle with some brushes on the back and sides that shuffles up the sand/grit along the curb and middle of lanes and spreads it back more-or-less evenly across the lanes.

[jadzia2000]

Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT

In the 15 minutes between when the sanding truck passed a secod time and till I got my camera, the sand had already migrated off the "tire zone" and onto the margins. That was probably after 20-30 cars or so had passed.

The point was, there was not any sand required at all that day as there was no ice or snow on the road.

You should show photos of Bellamy hill heading downhill.

Way too much sand and muck on the road especially at the steepest decline just before the crosswalk.

[Doug]

Why not reconfigure the way the sand gets distributed from the back of the truck so that more goes in the travel potion of the lane and much less in the middle and along the sides of the lanes. Today the amount of sand on the roads was terrible. They need to come up with a better way (this is a recording...)

[Edmonton PRT]

I came home tonight at 7:30 pm only to find an adjacent residential street freshly sanded. City of Edmonton sanding crews put useless sand on packed snow. What will that help? Probably in a day or two, it will turn the hard packed snow into rutted messy brown oatmeal. I will keep you posted.

[Medwards]

^ the quality of that picture is so great, you can even see sand on the house!!

(oh wait, thats just a ****** camera with the colour levels played with)

FAIL

[Edmonton PRT]

It was taken without a flash at night.

Here is one taken with a flash.



Rather than debate an issue you would rather attack the evidence and try to defend the transportation department when they put sand on packed snow.

Originally Posted by Old Dawg

I find discussing anything with you seems to result in a round of antigonistic obsfucation and denial.

[Edmonton PRT]

This keeps getting better and better.

Earlier this evening, they sanded the firmly packed snow on an adjacent residential street.

Now, only about six hours later, the transportation department plowed the freshly laid sand with the snow to the side of the street!

This makes no sense at all and is just an illustration of a poorly managed department wasting taxpayers money.

[andy8244]

Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT

This keeps getting better and better.

Earlier this evening, they sanded the firmly packed snow on an adjacent residential street.

Now, only about six hours later, the transportation department plowed the freshly laid sand with the snow to the side of the street!

This makes no sense at all and is just an illustration of a poorly managed department wasting taxpayers money.

We actually watched exactly the same thing being done on our street today. Laughed our a$$ off - it was worth the tax $ just for the entertainment value alone.

[jadzia2000]

Originally Posted by andy8244

We actually watched exactly the same thing being done on our street today. Laughed our a$$ off - it was worth the tax $ just for the entertainment value alone.

Wouldn't it be cheaper just to clear the snow (including the windrows on the sidewalks) and then just put one layer of sand to melt what's left on the road?

[Edmonton PRT]

No, they create much more work when it snows.


Road Maintenance Policy
"as performed"

1. Place sand on snow
2. Sand every two hours until snow stops
3. Sand again
4. Plow the snow and sand mess to the curb
5. Sand again
6. Sand some more
7. Plow the windrow onto the grass median
8. wait a week
9. Plow the windrow onto the street and haul away
10. Wait till June
11. Assemble large crew
12. Brush piles of sand off curbs and medians, ensure the grass is town out leaving only weeds to grow
13. Haul away truck load of sand
14. Rinse streets & clean out catch basins
15. Repeat it all again come Fall

[Doug]

Edmonton PRT, call Roadways and ask why it was done. This is just another example of stupidity. Why are we sanding packed residential streets other than to justify the trucks being out there? Complete waste of our money.

[Blueline]

Can we also say that posters use way too many non sustainable key strokes and pixels on this thread
This topic may be exhausted

[Doug]

How about you ignore the thread and go to one that is of interest to you.

[Titanium48]

Tell the city what you think of their road maintenance policies. Take the survey here.

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by Doug

Edmonton PRT, call Roadways and ask why it was done. This is just another example of stupidity. Why are we sanding packed residential streets other than to justify the trucks being out there? Complete waste of our money.

From the perspective of a cyclist who rides packed snow on roads and trails using studded tires, the sand can really make a difference when the weather's getting warmer. The packed snow melts on the top, and then freezes, and without sand it can gets buffed (instead of sanded) and very slippery. Black ice slippery. Slow motion crash slippery, which obviously concerns me more than it would a driver.

I don't like it because it's dirty, but I appreciate and need it where I ride.

I've been really impressed with the way the city has maintained the paths this year. They know the bad spots, and usually get on them right away. Saskatchewan drive has a tendency to get bad in spots. There can be some slippery corners. They get the sand down in the right spots, usually before I get out there before 8am. The Argyll road underpass can be a nightmare. Without sand, it can be impassable, even for pedestrians. This year, the sand has got me through a few times.

I have some pet peeves on my route, but if it was really bad, I'd make a call to the city, and they'd likely take care of it. Maybe someone called them to sand there.

[Titanium48]

^ Sand is useful on ice, but when sand is spread over packed snow in moderately cold weather (-5°C to -15°C) it turns the perfectly rideable packed snow into impossible brown sludge. I'd rather they left minor streets alone when it was snowing, then plowed them between storms after the major roads have been dealt with. Very little sand needed, and a little warm weather will quickly expose bare pavement.

[Neumanic]

Originally Posted by soycd

I agree completely with you.

My strategy: I drive a F-150 Lariet 4X4. Since it is all too common to have snow on the ground for 5 months of the year why would one have anything else but a dependable 4X4? I don't get stuck as I have a vehicle for the driving conditions.

Not too many 'smart' cars tooling around this time of year.

Actually - Smart Cars do really well on oatmeal roads. My Civic is frustrating in heavy muck but my friend's FourTwo blazes through without problems.

[glasshead]

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...848/story.html

why oh why would they do this??? The main arterials that I have seen stayed bone dry. Was it a different story outside of central Edmonton?

Sanding crews hit city streets after spring storm


By Journal staff, edmontonjournal.comApril 9, 2010 8:11 AMComments (1)
StoryPhotos ( 1 )

A sanding truck sits next to a sand pile at the 95th Street maintenance yard in this file photo.Photograph by: Chris Schwarz, edmontonjournal.comEDMONTON — The City of Edmonton says 40 sanding crews have been working on city streets through the night to bring roads up to good winter driving condition after Thursday’s snow and wind storm that left many roads slick with ice.

Additional crews will be assigned during the morning as required, the city’s roadway maintenance branch said in a news release.

Hills and bridges, particularly in the river valley, as well as freeways and major arterial roads are the main priorities.

The snow and wind can make driving difficult.

Motorists are advised to clear windows of snow and ice and to give themselves extra time to get where they’re going.

The city urges drivers to slow down and brake sooner and to use extreme caution when passing or approaching snow maintenance equipment.

© Copyright (c) The Edmonton Journal

[jadzia2000]

Originally Posted by glasshead

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...848/story.html

why oh why would they do this??? The main arterials that I have seen stayed bone dry. Was it a different story outside of central Edmonton?

I'm not sure. But you know that precious sand that the city used all winter?

Well, yesterday driving down Bellamy Hill with the strong wind my vehicle accelerated a little and as I tapped my break, the vehicle caught the sand and triggered the anti-lock forcing me into a skid.

[Chmilz]

Sanding crews hit city streets after spring storm

By Journal staff, edmontonjournal.comApril 9, 2010 8:11 AMComments (3)

A sanding truck sits next to a sand pile at the 95th Street maintenance yard in this file photo.

Photograph by: Chris Schwarz, edmontonjournal.com

EDMONTON — The City of Edmonton says 40 sanding crews have been working on city streets through the night to bring roads up to good winter driving condition after Thursday’s snow and wind storm that left many roads slick with ice.

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...848/story.html

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! It'll be gone in 2 days...

[Medwards]

^ now this I question. The roads don't look like much snow accumulated on them...

[MrOilers]

The roads I took this morning looked all clear and dry. This was at 6:00 AM.

[Sonic Death Monkey]

How was the 105 St hill into downtown this morning? I remember the chaos on it during the first snowfall back in December.

[MrOilers]

Originally Posted by MrOilers

The roads I took this morning looked all clear and dry. This was at 6:00 AM.

Correction I just drove down 111 Ave, and the stretch between 109th and 114th Streets (where the big fields/parks near the City Center Airport are) had a lot of ice and slush on it.

That was the only place on the entire road where it was sanded. At least it looks like they dropped the sand in the appropriate places, anyway.

[Jimbo]

The parking lot and alleyway behind my apartment was very icy, and because I no longer have the studded tires on, I left the bike at home and took the bus. I initially regretted it, because the roads didn't look too bad at all, but there was an accident on Jasper that delayed my bus, causing me to miss my second bus.

I was fuming at myself.

But taking the 87 to Millgate was an entirely different story. The roads in the neighbourhood beside Mill Creek Ravine were brutal, and I could see patches of the same ice on the bike paths I could see. The bus had to crawl along, and we barely were able to pull out from one of the bus stops, because the tires kept spinning, and we hit the curb. It was bad all around where I work, just off Roper Road.

I was told a semi had overturned, but it may have been on the highway, and due to the wind gusts as well as ice?

Sand was definately needed in many places.

[Marcel Petrin]

I don't know if sand was needed. I had my summers put on Wednesday and driving to the RGC at 7am and then to the NW at 9am the roads were almost entirely clear and I had no problems at all.

[Jimbo]

I don't know exactly why, but it was definately hit and miss (no pun). Some roads were perfectly fine. Some were brutal.

[Edmonton PRT]

I watched a sanding truck on 75th street the day after the storm, put sand down on a left turn lane that had a 6" wide strip of ice in the middle of the lane. It had been already sanded once with a heavy layer on the dry road (except for the strip of ice) and this driver just had to put another layer down. The first layer was not necessary, the second was just stupid.

[jadzia2000]

Okay. Call me crazy but I could have sworn that I saw fresh sand dumped on the road this morning.

So, what, is the city using sand for rain too?

[IanO]

Originally Posted by jadzia2000

Okay. Call me crazy but I could have sworn that I saw fresh sand dumped on the road this morning.

So, what, is the city using sand for rain too?

what you saw was not fresh sand but rather likely blown or rain deposited sand.... it is evident around downtown too.

no worries