PDA

View Full Version : Copied posts from the Villeneuve thread - re Alberta Aviation Museum's future



Thomas Hinderks
18-09-2013, 07:14 AM
{ADMIN EDIT}

These posts come from the VILLENEUVE thread (http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=33938).

These are for your information only.

{END EDIT}

Edmtrekker

I am puzzled why the Museum won't/can't take the lead role. Maybe they are not staying at their current location long term?1) We did, I was lead and it got smacked down.

A year of planning, working with multiple organizations to create what would have been a massive event celebrating the history over the Canada Day weekend.

Imagine Spitfire, Hurricane, B-25 Mitchell, F-86 Sabre Jet, B-17 Flying Fortress and 30 other classic and historical aircraft both Civil and Military coming from Canada and the US to create the largest Warbird and Classic aircraft gathering seen in decades.

And no City of Edmonton dollars in the program.

With the proven history of past airshows (Namao, EIA and other) having attendance of well over 100,000 persons all factors were in its favor.

It got squashed. Aircraft and performers had to be released and with no other open dates it was over.

Now we are so hammered with the dictum coming down we have neither the time or resources (core staff of 5) to try again.

2) While our intent has always been to remain on site the property line restriction and other restrictions and issues coming down are having us to rework if it will be possible.

It gets much more complex but the long and the short is that we are now getting decisions and information we should have had (3)/(4) years ago and no funding commitments to support the direction at this time.

I will say this...I will do everything possible to keep the Museum on this site, it is where the history happened and moving it makes about as much sense as moving The Tyrell Museum to another site.

In my highly biased personal opinion

Thomas Hinderks
18-09-2013, 07:38 AM
EdmTrekker

To add to my response...

I can also say that "if" it comes to the point the Museum has to move it will not be the choice of the Alberta Aviation Museum Association.

The Board of Directors and others have worked diligently, openly and transparently (over the last 3 years) with the City of Edmonton administration to take on a new direction and adapt to what was coming.

But things like being restricted to the existing property line and others have only come into place over the last number of weeks.

Now the game has changed and time will tell while we wait for confirmed direction in writing and other issues being discussed over the next few weeks.

In my highly biased personal opinion

YEGatc
18-09-2013, 07:45 AM
1 - Don't feed the ***** (hint, rhymes with droll)....

2 - Don't feed the *****(hint, rhymes with droll)...

3 - Don't feed the *****(hint, rhymes with droll)...

4 - I've made my point.

5 - That's all very unfortunate, Tom.

6 - Carry on.

Thomas Hinderks
18-09-2013, 07:56 AM
1 - Don't feed the ***** (hint, rhymes with droll)....

2 - Don't feed the *****(hint, rhymes with droll)...

3 - Don't feed the *****(hint, rhymes with droll)...

4 - I've made my point.

5 - That's all very unfortunate, Tom.

6 - Carry on.

Thanks YEGatc

I am just reaching the end of my patience with the garbage being spewed.

The Alberta Aviation Museum has grown into the 3rd largest collection in Canada, received National Awards (4) years running from the Canadian Aeronautic Preservation Association, is in the fold of the Smithsonian Mutual Concerns Conference program and acknowledged by our peers Internationally as a leading museum.

We have done more events, done more to engage the public and created more National front page positive exposure...

- The Spirit of Edmonton Flights
- BCATP Tour
- The Starfighter roll out
- Bomber Command Medal presentation
- Visits by Chris Hadfield
- and many, many others

than any equivalent not for profit heritage facility I and many others know of.

In many ways our methods of involving and interesting the public are now being adopted by other museums.

Yet here at home we fight for survival and some are continually trying to minimize the value, the work and the facility.

Seems yet another case where Edmonton does realize what it has...worse, is trying to minimize it.

Just like some are trying to bury the history on the Blatchford site, it's importance to Edmonton, Alberta and Internationally.

In my highly biased personal opinion.

YEGatc
18-09-2013, 10:22 AM
I, for one, am appalled that the museum's footprint is not allowed to remain as is. The fact you need to move the PWA plane after all the work (and cost) it took to get it there, and the few years you've had it on display, is worrisome. Do you have to move any other outdoor displays at this time or is that it for the immediate future? I remember you writing somewhere that your plan is to move some of the refurbishment offsite, presumably to use some of the western sq footage to house some of them... I dunno. Fill me in. Unlike many people, I'm actually an aircraft/aviation enthusiast.

Thomas Hinderks
18-09-2013, 11:21 AM
I, for one, am appalled that the museum's footprint is not allowed to remain as is. The fact you need to move the PWA plane after all the work (and cost) it took to get it there, and the few years you've had it on display, is worrisome. Do you have to move any other outdoor displays at this time or is that it for the immediate future? I remember you writing somewhere that your plan is to move some of the refurbishment offsite, presumably to use some of the western sq footage to house some of them... I dunno. Fill me in. Unlike many people, I'm actually an aircraft/aviation enthusiast.

I have a post put together to reply but...

I will have to get permission from our President or Vice President and

Admin...this will take (2) pages to respond to.

Will that be allowed?

EdmTrekker
18-09-2013, 12:42 PM
Tom, I did not know a lot of the info you shared.

Thomas Hinderks
18-09-2013, 01:58 PM
YEGatc

To be fair

While I wait for the approval to respond to your questions.


I, for one, am appalled that the museum's footprint is not allowed to remain as is.

To be clear...the problem is the property line foot print is not changing, but not having access to the taxiways as we always have creates huge issues.

The rest, which includes why that is a problem, I cannot respond to till approved.

EdTrekker

Tom, I did not know a lot of the info you shared.

Appreciate that, but it's all been out there. Which is why it is so frustrating.

For more, as with YEGatc, I am waiting for approval.

In my highly biased personal opinion

Alberta Aviation Museum
18-09-2013, 03:42 PM
Now that I have the approval from the Vice President

I, for one, am appalled that the museum's footprint is not allowed to remain as is. The fact you need to move the PWA plane after all the work (and cost) it took to get it there, and the few years you've had it on display, is worrisome. Do you have to move any other outdoor displays at this time or is that it for the immediate future? I remember you writing somewhere that your plan is to move some of the refurbishment offsite, presumably to use some of the western sq footage to house some of them... I dunno. Fill me in. Unlike many people, I'm actually an aircraft/aviation enthusiast.

YEGatc

I, for one, am appalled that the museum's footprint is not allowed to remain as is.

To be clear, the actual foot print isn't changing, but that's the problem.

As we expected and confirmed this year with our floor change, without the access to the adjacent taxiway this will not happen again as there is not room to move the large aircraft in and out on the existing foot print without major disassembly, which is not practical.

Because the 737 extends over the property line as defined and as we have been advised there will be no additional space of any kind it has to move. It can't move it forward, it will break through the 70 year old concrete, even with steel plates underneath is started to go through. This has been a topic for some years to no avail.

To make matters worse even if we got it in the property lines somehow when the ramp finally gets replaced we would have no where to move it to allow the ramp to be rebuilt. Talk about Catch 22, now add in that there would not be room to allow for the EPS/RCMP and other exercises/activities/rentals/movie work on the aircraft, which cover the costs of having here and maintaining it...problem gets bigger. Plus the loss of the 737 as a community asset.

Not having access to the taxiway ramp also means the end of Large events, like the Battle of Britain parade last weekend and others as well as the types of large events we need to replace revenues that disappear with the airport. It also means no new large aircraft can be added in the future there is no room and will be no way to get them in, even disassembled.

From last information the design of the roadways (last information seen, it may have changed) also means the CF-101 Voodoo that has presided over Kingsway since 1999 will have to come down.

To adapt to this 10-15 aircraft (both restored and awaiting restoration) along with many other artifacts, needed and irreplaceable aircraft components and several containers of display/equipment/artifacts need to be moved off site as soon as possible to make some room to work.

Permanently coming off the field, as an example, is the Spirit of Edmonton Bi Plane that received huge media coverage not long ago.

We are currently working on a storage location but nothing finalized yet, or how to pay for it.


I remember you writing somewhere that your plan is to move some of the refurbishment offsite

This was the plan with the expansion to the hangar North of our location, that hangar with the ramp attached to it gave some room to allow most of what I indicated above to happen. We cannot build to the West of the building as Historic resources has said it will not be allowed and if we eliminate that parking it creates another crisis.

Our Board working with City of Edmonton administration believed if not the hangar at least enough room to operate was going to happen.

As noted, a number of weeks ago it was made clear it the property line is frozen.

Now in order to be able to try and adapt, as well as meet requirements for the impending and needed furnace replacement we also need to figure out how to deal with restoration as unless somehow regulations can be bent and Historic resources convinced to allow huge modifications to the building it will have to move. As a museum it’s pretty tough to justify major modification to a historic site.

That area will also be needed for other revenue and educational/display uses to try and make up for revenues we are losing.

Now someone is going to say why do you have so many aircraft for the site?
Well it was encouraged by the design team for the development and the Blatchford development team, which added to the Board's belief space would be available.

Now, through this process we have been working on a series of different plans to adapt to whatever was thrown at us. We have completed phase 1 and are into phase 2 of the long term, but this throws a huge curve ball.

With the losses of revenue that are going to happen, the lack of expansion being possible and the restrictions it causes that include additional losses of revenue we are in a tough spot. To this time no funding has been made available to deal with these issues or confirmations on long term funding.

Meetings continue. We will see what happens.

Now if this had all come down 2-3 years ago when we started to try and get answers from the Blatchford Development and the City we would not have the crisis we do now. We could have been working on instituting plans for the issues and fund raising to cover the costs.

But with the determinations coming a short number of weeks ago, it is a huge problem.


Thomas Hinderks
Executive Director
Alberta Aviation Museum Association


Admin: I trust the length of this reply will not cause a problem

Sonic Death Monkey
18-09-2013, 05:30 PM
Done deal - closing Nov 30
http://globalnews.ca/news/840184/closure-date-selected-for-city-centre-airport/

ike9126
18-09-2013, 08:23 PM
^^As much as I am in favour of closing the airport, the inflexibility regarding the property line shocks me. I was always under the impression that the aviation museum was going to be a showpiece attraction on the site.

highlander
18-09-2013, 08:33 PM
No, it should be properly celebrated. With an F-18 fly-by, a big party, unveiling a dozen or more statues that will evenually be placed around Blachford, fireworks, and a big "final take-off parade where citizens can line the runway and watch as many as possible of the aircraft types that ever flew here take off for one last time. Including big, loud jets that I would never otherwise want to see here.

And for Pete's sake, wait until all villeneuve is ready. Come on, does anyone actually believe that the redevelopment is anywhere near ready to start?

I'm pro closure, but that's just the right way to do things. Remind all of us after this ugly debate that the history here is something to be proud of.

ThomasH
18-09-2013, 08:40 PM
Thomas, why don't you make the Alberta Aviation Museum an election issue? Ask all the candidates what they would do to save the museum. We all know that the airport is closed but the museum should be able to acquire more space. It should be possible to purchase an adjacent hangar. Get all 3 levels of government involved, funding for this should be easy to get. Look what the province did for Reynolds and Tyrell museums, and Head smashed in buffalo jump. Tell the media the problem you are facing and they might run an article on it. I knew closing the airport would be a winnable battle. The plight your museum is facing is also a winnable battle, don't give up!

Thomas Hinderks
18-09-2013, 08:42 PM
^^As much as I am in favour of closing the airport, the inflexibility regarding the property line shocks me. I was always under the impression that the aviation museum was going to be a showpiece attraction on the site.

So was our Board

Which is why the position we are in is such a shock to the Board.

In my highly biased personal opinion

Thomas Hinderks
18-09-2013, 08:47 PM
Thomas H


Thomas, why don't you make the Alberta Aviation Museum an election issue?

I can't till the Board allows me too. Right now they are still trying to work with the parties involved.

But trust me...the second they change their mind I'm on it like a stain


The plight your museum is facing is also a winnable battle, don't give up!

Now ThomasH...We have often been on opposite sides of a discussion but I think one thing I have made very apparent...I never give up.

This one will be opposed to the bitter end.

In my highly biased personal opinion

highlander
18-09-2013, 08:48 PM
Wow, my last response is a page behind, and after reading it all I am disgusted with how my city is treating the museum, and shocked at the short sighted planning that would throw out such a wonderful asset as the alberta Avoation Museum, and for what? A slightly bigger generic subdivision?

Bah.

RichardS
18-09-2013, 10:13 PM
I am really glad that the board of the AAMA is allowing some information to be published. You see, while many can hint, decorum and due process prevents outright disclosure at times.

To answer the question TomH puts forth - feel free to make it an election issue. Ask if the candidate is in favour of assisting the museum completely in the transition, and then ask the tough question - how do you plan to assist?

Also, feel free to send any notes to the city's administration asking the same things.

Also, I implore each and every member of C2E to visit the museum if you have not already. It is truly a gem that needs the support. For those that doubt the place aviation has in defining who we are as a city today, if you leave doubting that, you walked through with your eyes closed, your ears plugged, and your brain off.

Many complain about the appearance, but it is a great place that can only get better. It needs the support and the funding to go to the next level and be that marker of history.

I have been flattered by and honoured to be chosen as a leader in the Alberta Aviation Museum Association's and the Edmonton Aviation Historical Society's planning and transformation sessions over the past couple of years. In these sessions, I was welcomed with open arms, listened to, and allowed to help author their transition plans, the requisite contingencies, and even a business plan. I will say that this experience has been greatly rewarding and disappointing at the same time. Overall, it is the BEST organizational change management exercise and group session I have ever conducted.

Rewarding because these folks, while not happy with the overall decision, readily recognized 2 years ago that transformation was necessary. They have realized that they need to modernize, to attract new members, to revise their operating plans, and to move on. It is why I have been rather emotional in the defense of some of the businesses - for it is upsetting hearing the rather slanderous words used to describe many of these member organizations of the EAHS and the AAMA - including the cadets.





It is also upsetting because they, like so many others, only wanted a few things - items that have been openly discussed here several times. These items are crucial to successful transition planning. For the AAMA and the EAHS, they are:
What are the options for us on the site in terms of footprint, access to adjacent buildings, and integration into the overall project?
What are the restrictions around and the timing of signing a new long term lease? What activities (conventions, social gatherings, cadets, etc) are we allowed to host as per our lease? (yes, there are restrictions on the current lease).
Given our need to plan any exit of equipment and also for the programming of things like AirFest, Young Eagles, Battle of Britain, etc, as well as assess any potential move options, what are the timelines around:
buildouts of any secondary site(s)
closure of aviation activities on site
commencement of construction and limitations on site access

All of these very reasonable requests...all of these 3 years in the asking...and until very recently, many left unanswered.

The AAMA and the several associations under the umbrella of the EAHS have only wanted these answers to plan. That's it. They did not want these to relaunch any debates - for while they did not like the outcome - they knew the conversation was done.

Tom and others have hinted all along that they were not getting the answers they needed. Now, it is crunch time for many things.

I am proud to have authored these transition plans alongside these folks, and they do have some real exciting things in store - but that is for them to announce.

The disappointing side...

It is also why I have been very skeptical as to the preservation and display of history on this site, and actually throughout it. It is why I thought the place needed a great send off - to firmly display this place's significance and the fact that many have moved on. It also would have made a great backdrop to announce any transition plans for the AAMA, or even other exciting news. There was an extremely respectful, corporate backed, Travel Alberta backed initiative that even had elements of Race Week brought into the fold...one that was going to bring people who bought hotel rooms, stayed a night or two, ate in restaurants, and it would have made this city look classy and GREAT...and to see that not go forward was upsetting.

Sorry if I have been overly passionate, but to answer your question EdTrekker, my heart is physically fine, but the stress of watching some of these people be bashed, or the vilification of their intentions on the closure celebration that was being planned, was heartbreaking. I apologize for being harsh at times.

It is also why comments upset me when people said folks on opposite sides of this debate could not be in a room together. Truth is that people on opposite sides of this debate came together at this very museum to launch several projects, including Race Week Edmonton. I also have made some very good friends on both sides of this debate. Good can come out of all this.

The conclusion...

I look forward to assisting more in this transition, and I think many will be impressed. However, some of the old assumptions which are flat out wrong need to be removed. The AAMA is not the enemy of the transition project. There is no secret agenda to embarrass the city - in fact, as one of the largest and highest rated tourist attractions on many travel magazines and tourist sites, the AAMA is actually a big supporter of the city and wants to be an integral part of its success!

RichardS
18-09-2013, 10:25 PM
A:link { } For those who don't want to read the whole thing go to bottom of post..


Yes richard because I can use words and type means that my jimmies are rustled, I edit my posts because I think better of them later and or change my position which makes me a spineless ***** coward. You really are completely dense. Oh and I will leave this here and not self censor just to appease your selfish need to argue with me.

(...)



Now I am out, I won't debate you here or in person about this topic. Keep dreaming that you want to debate me.




TL;DR: Everyone involved in this has acted like a fool. Some will even say I have (but again that just proves my point).




Thank you.

This post does speak volumes for who you are, how you conduct yourself, and your values.

Good night.

YEGatc
19-09-2013, 07:33 AM
Tom, thanks for the précis regarding the museum's footprint. In my mind, that's sort of what I meant, I suppose; that the actual footprint wasn't moving but that with the inability to move things around, to say you're in a tight spot is an understatement. Without maneuvering area, you've got nothing. One thing I didn't realize was just how contentious the concrete issue was. I did notice that at least one (a couple?) a/c was up on steel plates outside, and that there were visible sink marks nearby (the CF-100?). The 732 presents a whole different challenge, girth-wise, then. Reminds me of the story about a DC-8 that broke thru and sunk almost up to its belly in YYC when it was parked overnight on concrete that wasn't stressed for 80+ tons. Oops. Wouldn't want that to happen. I think you mentioned you've got plans for rehabilitating the concrete....

I've visited the collection twice this summer and it looks great. The -104 looks fantastic, btw. What a rocket. With 4 young sons, I hope to continue or even increase the cadence of my visits. I think a lot of people fail to realize what a fantastically difficult endeavour it is to operate, coordinate, and maintain the AAMA. Hell, I'm pretty sure I've got no real grasp on its specific challenges, especially in the last few years. I would just like to say, keep up the good work. Lord knows, you've kept coming back to this site despite a tide of anti-YXD vitriol directed in your general direction, and you've done so with sound judgment and without resorting to mudslinging. (You know, not like that RichardS character ;) )

Thomas Hinderks
19-09-2013, 08:02 AM
Thank you everyone

Appreciate the kind words and sentiments and will pass them on.

Everyone here (staff and volunteers) is here because of a passion for our history and making things work.

Tom