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edmonton daily photo
20-12-2012, 02:32 AM
Can you imagine an American city completing capital improvements to three different mass transit lines in one month? That's what's just happened in Paris, after a breakneck month of opening extensions on the T1, T2 and T3 tramway lines.

The latest is the new segment of Paris' orbital T3 tram line, which opened on Saturday, adding 24 stations along 14.5 kilometers of track to the existing line that runs on the city's southern edge. The latest addition has direct connections with the city's Metro system in four locations.

The new stretch, which encircles the eastern half of the city and ends at Porte de la Chapelle, will be able to handle 165,000 passengers a day. Rapid transport between outlying Parisian districts will no longer require a trip into the center.

The T3 extension was completed right on time, opening six years to the day after the first section of the line.
http://www.theatlanticcities.com/commute/2012/12/mass-transit-improvement-day-24-new-tram-stations-paris/4169/
http://cdn.theatlanticcities.com/img/upload/2012/12/17/RTR3BBMC/largest.jpg

Alex.L
20-12-2012, 08:11 AM
Can you maybe make one all-encompassing thread for LRT developments in far-away cities?

edmonton daily photo
20-12-2012, 08:17 AM
That's a good idea

edmonton daily photo
20-12-2012, 02:31 PM
I wish we had this level of commitment to public transit however.

Alex.L
20-12-2012, 02:44 PM
So I'm trying to wrap my head around this project...and from the article it almost seems like they built a much smaller, LRT version of one of the legs of the Henday. (probably considerably cheaper too)

Does that sound right? They talked about people in outlying areas being able to take this route around the city instead of going to through the core.

edmonton daily photo
20-12-2012, 02:50 PM
When all 7 or 8 tram lines are built it will look like this...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/%C3%8Ele-de-France_-_plan_des_tramways.png/519px-%C3%8Ele-de-France_-_plan_des_tramways.png

the henday wouldn't be an apt comparison.. more like the whitemud, 75st, yellowhead

edmonton daily photo
20-12-2012, 02:52 PM
This is ontop of Paris's new state of the are super metro... that is currently under construction...

http://www.bonjourparis.com/static/img/image-transportation-metro-rer-bus/110526-proposed-super-metro.jpg

edmonton daily photo
20-12-2012, 02:53 PM
the current metro system is pretty much confined to old paris which is that small little area in the middle. and the perferie or the ring road follows the walls that used to fortify the city.

edmonton daily photo
20-12-2012, 02:57 PM
http://elderlycrossing.com/europe/Paris/images/Paris%20metro%20system.png

here is a map of the existing...

edmonton daily photo
20-12-2012, 03:00 PM
^ all of that is in a space only a few km wide.

edmonton daily photo
20-12-2012, 03:09 PM
So I'm trying to wrap my head around this project...and from the article it almost seems like they built a much smaller, LRT version of one of the legs of the Henday. (probably considerably cheaper too)

Does that sound right? They talked about people in outlying areas being able to take this route around the city instead of going to through the core.

ooo and to futher add to that before the trams and the new subway people had to take commuter rail into paris to access the metro. ( if we make a high level generalization)

edmonton daily photo
20-12-2012, 03:12 PM
here is a map of only the commuter rail systems...

http://parisbytrain.com/files/2008/05/rer.pdf

http://parisbytrain.com/files/2008/05/rer.pdf

http://www.ias.u-psud.fr/polar/img2/RER.jpg

edmonton daily photo
20-12-2012, 03:16 PM
I hope that all makes sense...

Paris has the Metro, The super Metro (under construction) Commuter Rail and the Trams. servicing a population of about 11 million. 55-60% of Paris lives car free. I am trying to find the numbers for Paris proper but it's something like 95% live car free....

The suburbs are 45% car free..

Medwards
20-12-2012, 03:50 PM
Maybe one could add in the population density of Paris, and of France, and compare that to Edmonton and Alberta.

edmonton daily photo
20-12-2012, 04:52 PM
I can't find up to date info on car ownership in Paris so we can just run with 55-60% live car free

so in short that is what it take to get 50-60% of your population out of thier car... so thinking that one line being grade separated at a couple of intersections is going to achieve a mass migration out of the car is just silly.. thinking that shaving 10 min of the travel time of one line is going to make people flee to mass transit is just as silly...

Paris is the face of real public transport and they are selling their know how across the world.. part of it landed in Edmonton. The P3 contract for ottawa went to one of the international transit and rail leaders who are based out of... you guessed it France/Paris.

http://www.veoliatransportation.com/index

they will likely end up running out line too.

sundance
21-12-2012, 09:06 AM
Paris can have very few cars for a few reasons, because France has an area (260,000 sq mil) almost the same as Alberta (255,000 sq mi), and population of 65 millions versus the 3.6 million here they have a density of 301 people/sq mile versus our 14.7 people/sq mile. Note Edmonton itself has a metro density of 319 people/sq mile.
So because they have roughly 20x the density they can support a very good train network of TGVs, excellent commuter rail and subways. You don't need a car to get to most places in France you can take a trains almost everywhere you want to go.

Unfortunately without the density Alberta will not achieve this level of train usage.

edmonton daily photo
21-12-2012, 10:39 AM
In the 50's Paris had a plan to run freeways all over the place and destroy alter some amazing public spaces and give them over to the car....

France/Paris choose a different route they TRULEY embraced public transport and continued to build their suburbs in a manor where 45% of the people live car free. I lived in France for a summer and traveled From Paris to Le Man and the Le louire valley. There is lots of room in France and some amazing hiways but they value a different lifestyle nor to they view not owning a car as a social detriment.... one of the questions on a very well used dating site it "do you own a car" I can tell you that people have declined to go out on a date with me because I don't own a car and most of my work mates "don't know how I do it!"

Paris can have very few cars because they left the pre car transportation network in place, expanded it and have continued to design their cities and suburbs around people and efficient modes of transportation.

Again I point out that if you layer all the maps on top of each other that is the public transport system that is needed to achieve a car free percentage of apx 60%... but not only will we have to put the transport system in place but we also need to change the city and we can bet on the fact that the number one thing that shapes a city is it's transportation systems.

Medwards
21-12-2012, 11:27 AM
Of course you'll ignore the fact that Paris, and France have population density many times higher than Edmonton and Alberta... This higher density allowed for the rail network to be built up... but you'll continue to ignore these facts, and slight Edmonton passively without little consideration outside of your usual line of thinking "car bad, europe good" You could fit most of Europe within the 3 prairie provinces and BC. Alberta is as a large as France. 3.5 M to 70 M?

edmonton daily photo
21-12-2012, 12:22 PM
Here is what designing our city solely around the car looks like...

http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/38/3883/3JJJF00Z/posters/david-edwards-aerial-shot-of-phoenix-arizona.jpg

Medwards
21-12-2012, 12:28 PM
please tell us what you think is so wrong with the above picture, and perhaps you could tell us where the picture is from.

(I don't expect you to do this, because you like to play "out of context" game, and can't seem to apply reasoning to any of your thought processes)

edmonton daily photo
21-12-2012, 02:28 PM
WVrUUaKamTw#!
o2qZDrqzsys#!

edmonton daily photo
21-12-2012, 02:29 PM
^ I am so excited to have this in Edmonton... the fisr video atound 2 min give ya some good shots of speed.

Its great to watch the signaling too.. how quickly the signals change.. it really puts into perspective how outdate out signal arms and heavry rail design of our old system is way behind the times.

edmonton daily photo
21-12-2012, 02:42 PM
0aQlpdmFrkw#!

Gemini
21-12-2012, 03:13 PM
please tell us what you think is so wrong with the above picture, and perhaps you could tell us where the picture is from.

(I don't expect you to do this, because you like to play "out of context" game, and can't seem to apply reasoning to any of your thought processes)
Oh, you will have to wait for the sequel to find that out. I should imagine it will be in one of his new threads. Maybe 50 Shades of Tram, Trams R Us, Tramsformers, Trams and their Pets, Tram Apparel or Lady and the Tram(p).
Their is also a possibility of a thread called Trams vs LRT Systems of the World.
That one I wait with baited breath for.

Edmonton PRT
21-12-2012, 03:44 PM
^ I am so excited to have this in Edmonton...

Yes, we understand that you are giddy with excitement.

Your comparisons between Paris and Edmonton are really over the top. In order to make Edmonton with the same density, you would have to pack the entire population in an area between Groat Road and WGD/75th - Whyte Ave. and 118th Ave. Heck, Paris has 20,000 people living in a area the size of South Edmonton Common! Sure a lot easier to make transit systems cost/benefit ratio work to Paris's favor.

Pretty easy to have a walk-able, bike-able, transit oriented city where every need is close at hand and the average low in January is +2.5C

If you really want to create a "Paris" of the North, you have to do some "reorganization" like they did in Paris or Dresden.

http://www.anglonautes.com/hist_us_20_ww2/hist_us_20_ww2_pic_dresden_streetcar.jpg
Nice steetcar

PrairieBoyinExile
21-12-2012, 03:47 PM
There is lots of room in France and some amazing hiways but they value a different lifestyle nor to they view not owning a car as a social detriment.... one of the questions on a very well used dating site it "do you own a car" I can tell you that people have declined to go out on a date with me because I don't own a car and most of my work mates "don't know how I do it!"


Even in Toronto, Montreal and other transit-oriented North American cities there is very little stigma associated with not owning a car. I have a friend in Portland who makes six figures and yet got rid of his car. My point is, we don't have to become like Paris, but just need to increase our density and improve transit incrementally to achieve significant gains in this area.

Edmonton PRT
21-12-2012, 03:56 PM
.

http://www.theatlanticcities.com/commute/2012/12/mass-transit-improvement-day-24-new-tram-stations-paris/4169/
http://cdn.theatlanticcities.com/img/upload/2012/12/17/RTR3BBMC/largest.jpg
WOW, that picture looks familiar!




Yes it looks like...



wait for it...




wait for it...



...a street car named Desire!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-aStxen-1U9w/TpI20GQ_5_I/AAAAAAAAU3o/1zIi_ftl0ac/s1600/Trolley%2BCars%2B2.jpg


Hey, EDP, take a ride on the oldest streetcar system in North America, in operation since 1835!

LRWo7hdIXMc

edmonton daily photo
21-12-2012, 04:30 PM
PRT...I never compared Paris to Edmonton... Paris is an example of a society that has reduced car ownership to some of the lowest levels in a developed nation. Why do you get so defensive about looking at others successes and adapting and applying that here...

Better yet why not recognize that Paris and the people who design/run it are selling their knowledge and know how globally. Not only that Paris has embraced public transport... look at what they are building! it's pretty awesome. There is nothing wrong in emulating that attitude.

edmonton daily photo
21-12-2012, 04:33 PM
There is lots of room in France and some amazing hiways but they value a different lifestyle nor to they view not owning a car as a social detriment.... one of the questions on a very well used dating site it "do you own a car" I can tell you that people have declined to go out on a date with me because I don't own a car and most of my work mates "don't know how I do it!"


Even in Toronto, Montreal and other transit-oriented North American cities there is very little stigma associated with not owning a car. I have a friend in Portland who makes six figures and yet got rid of his car. My point is, we don't have to become like Paris, but just need to increase our density and improve transit incrementally to achieve significant gains in this area.


^ Increasing density and better transit is exactly like becoming Paris or Toronto or Chicago or Beijing......Never did I advocate we build an arc de triomphe.

I think you understand that there are ways to examine/compare and contrast and adopt best practices without giving up the distinct elements that makes us.. US! ;-)

it amazes me how some people get their panties in a knot when we start looking at other centers and looking at what we can improve upon here. are we really that insecure here in Edmonton

Medwards
21-12-2012, 04:47 PM
Compares edmonton to Paris and then claims he didn't. Par for the course edp plays on.

expat
21-12-2012, 04:50 PM
Edmonton - the Paris of the north! :rolleyes:

edmonton daily photo
21-12-2012, 05:00 PM
^ you made my day..

Edmonton PRT
21-12-2012, 05:39 PM
PRT...I never compared Paris to Edmonton...

Yes you did, here is part of the quote from post #6 "the henday wouldn't be an apt comparison.. more like the whitemud, 75st, yellowhead"

edmonton daily photo
21-12-2012, 06:53 PM
Prt that was in reply to someone who was trying to understand the layout of the tram network and used an Edmonton example

PrairieBoyinExile
22-12-2012, 11:45 AM
^ Increasing density and better transit is exactly like becoming Paris or Toronto or Chicago or Beijing......Never did I advocate we build an arc de triomphe.

I think you understand that there are ways to examine/compare and contrast and adopt best practices without giving up the distinct elements that makes us.. US! ;-)


I'm not saying you did advocate that. I'm actually agreeing with you but expressing it in a different way. We need to move incrementally closer to a Paris-like model in terms of density and transit infrastructure. It doesn't mean we'll ever be like Paris in any other way.

edmonton daily photo
24-12-2012, 09:51 AM
^ 100% agreed... I also really think it's really important to physically see what is needed to get 60% of your population car free and almost 100% of your population car reduced...