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Thomas Hinderks
04-06-2010, 09:29 AM
Playing Devils advocate here.

So after speaking to a councilor and reading the Journal yesterday and today on the Edmonton Indy issue I have a question.

If we choose not to have the Indy event what do we replace it with?

This is a serious question...

Regardless of what your position is there are some very serious positives that will need replaced if we do not run it.

- Economic Impact, while we argue about what it really is I can safely say it is many times the cost of the event to the city.

The most important aspect of this is it brings the majority of these dollars from outside of Edmonton rather than relying on its citizens to provide the audience.

so what do we do to replace these dollars? Or do we just lose the dollars?

- Marketing, again regardless of claims one way or the other, the Indy does provide a value in marketing this city across many borders and it is recognizable as a premier event that is hosted in Edmonton. Something regions can relate to and provides value in promoting Edmonton.

so how do we replace it?

- Prestige, again regardless how you value it having the Indy carries a certain level of prestige when approaching other jurisdictions to attract new business and tourism. Indy car racing is Internationally known and that is a fact regardless of where you go.

so again how do we replace it?

So the solutions are........

Tom

Thomas Hinderks
04-06-2010, 09:31 AM
BTW

I would appreciate our media friends, the chamber, EEDC, Edmonton Tourism the Mayor and councilors to chime in here.

We know you're out there, if not in person your staff is.

Tom

edmonton daily photo
04-06-2010, 09:34 AM
^international pothole days ....

Chmilz
04-06-2010, 09:48 AM
If we lose it, it's a lost opportunity. There is nothing to replace it with. We need to build a permanent track out by Castrol so it can be profitable, and make the Edmonton Indy an event that will attract international attention as the years go by.

bobinedmonton
04-06-2010, 09:48 AM
If the Indy goes, the majority of Edmontonians will continue on with their lives as if nothing had happened. You see, this event only attracts a tiny minority of the people in this city. If it loses money, then it should move to a place where it can make money. If an event can't make money, then it is not popular and does not deserve taxpayer support. And that includes hockey.

Thomas Hinderks
04-06-2010, 09:56 AM
If the Indy goes, the majority of Edmontonians will continue on with their lives as if nothing had happened. You see, this event only attracts a tiny minority of the people in this city. If it loses money, then it should move to a place where it can make money. If an event can't make money, then it is not popular and does not deserve taxpayer support. And that includes hockey.

But Bob you're missing the point...

It is not who comes to it from the city....its who comes to it from elsewhere.

They bring in the real economic impact, create jobs etc.

So if we lose those $$$ its costs Edmontonian jobs...how do we replace them?

And if the standard is "If an event can't make money, then it is not popular and does not deserve taxpayer support."

we better start looking at everything from the arts to children's sports and community leagues in a different light.

Tom

Thomas Hinderks
04-06-2010, 10:03 AM
Chmilz

I appreciate your sentiment and agree with most of your statement, but many want to see it gone and that is an option.

And as an event it could be replaced....but with what and at what cost?

Tom

bobinedmonton
04-06-2010, 10:13 AM
If the Indy goes, the majority of Edmontonians will continue on with their lives as if nothing had happened. You see, this event only attracts a tiny minority of the people in this city. If it loses money, then it should move to a place where it can make money. If an event can't make money, then it is not popular and does not deserve taxpayer support. And that includes hockey.

But Bob you're missing the point...

It is not who comes to it from the city....its who comes to it from elsewhere.

They bring in the real economic impact, create jobs etc.

So if we lose those $$$ its costs Edmontonian jobs...how do we replace them?

And if the standard is "If an event can't make money, then it is not popular and does not deserve taxpayer support."

we better start looking at everything from the arts to children's sports and community leagues in a different light.

Tom

What jobs will be lost? Would it not be more prudent to concentrate on permanent jobs and long term growth than tourist attractions that are wholly dependent on weather and the state of the economy? I would rather see the creation of construction jobs for at least the next 10 years by redeveloping the airport lands for residental than wasting it on sports events and aircraft that could easily use other facilities.

Chmilz
04-06-2010, 10:17 AM
If the Indy goes, the majority of Edmontonians will continue on with their lives as if nothing had happened. You see, this event only attracts a tiny minority of the people in this city. If it loses money, then it should move to a place where it can make money. If an event can't make money, then it is not popular and does not deserve taxpayer support. And that includes hockey.
That's the attitude that ensures mediocrity forever. As Thomas has said repeatedly, we don't actually need the buy-in from Edmontonians. We need the buy-in from tourism to bring dollars into Edmonton.

Know why the Stampede in Calgary is so friggin' successful? Because tens of thousands of people go to Calgary and spend money, lifting their economy. We need that to happen here.

If only Edmontonians went to the Indy, they'd just be shifting dollars they'd otherwise spend on other entertainment in the city. But if we keep growing the Indy and getting the tourism, we're getting new inflow of cash.

Naysayers really need to understand some basic economics. Let's say we have $100 to spend. We can spend $100 on fixing roads. Woo, great. Or we can spend $50 on roads and $50 to establish the Indy, which brings in another $75. See how this works?

Gotta spend money to make money. It's called "investing". We need the Indy, and if we make the right decisions, we can make it extremely profitable for the city and create a major positive economic impact.

Thomas Hinderks
04-06-2010, 10:25 AM
"What jobs will be lost? Would it not be more prudent to concentrate on permanent jobs and long term growth than tourist attractions that are wholly dependent on weather and the state of the economy? I would rather see the creation of construction jobs for at least the next 10 years by redeveloping the airport lands for residental than wasting it on sports events and aircraft that could easily use other facilities."

Location is not the issue on this and not the point of discussion.

I too would like to see more long term construction jobs and other more diversified employment.

But...who is going to come to fill those residences? Who is going to invest? What you are counting on is going to rely on new investment and an increasing population.

Those people coming here and that investment to a large extent is driven by and promoted through tourism. How else do they know about Edmonton?

And attracting people that are here for more than a paycheck and gone means having attractions and things to do and a status that attracts them.

So back to the original question...

If we decide to let the Indy go what do we replace it with?

Tom

Chump
04-06-2010, 10:26 AM
http://www.redbullairrace.com/ :)

Location: River? Cooking Lake? That-lake-between-YXD-and-YVL? Does it have to be over water?

IanO
04-06-2010, 10:30 AM
While i do not feel as though it is run as well as it could be, investing $3-5 mil a year in public dollars for the return on things stated above is a good investment IMO.

Think about it... say only 7,500 people come in from out of town for the 3 days and spend on average $400/day for hotel, food, taxis, drinks, etc. etc.... = $3,000,000.00

Thomas Hinderks
04-06-2010, 10:33 AM
http://www.redbullairrace.com/ :)

Location: River? Cooking Lake? That-lake-between-YXD-and-YVL? Does it have to be over water?

Chump

Love the idea and looked at it really hard.

But it again is an event whose value is based on economic impact. The events themselves "cost" money as there is no admission (figure out how to charge for that one).

Windsor obviously understands the investment required to boost tourism and are in their 2nd year of the Red Bull Air Race and it costs huge but attracts huge Tourism dollars.

Based on how Edmonton reacts to the Indy I can't see Red Bull standing a chance here.

BTW
I think it is Las Vegas (or Reno) in now holding a Red Bull over land.

Tom

Thomas Hinderks
04-06-2010, 10:35 AM
While i do not feel as though it is run as well as it could be, investing $3-5 mil a year in public dollars for the return on things stated above is a good investment IMO.

Think about it... say only 7,500 people come in from out of town for the 3 days and spend on average $400/day for hotel, food, taxis, drinks, etc. etc.... = $3,000,000.00

Again

Ian I agree and appreciate your point but for a moment lets assume the Indy is gone, as many want...what do we replace it with?

Tom

Komrade
04-06-2010, 10:41 AM
There is no way the economic impact is that much! If it was wouldn't this race be profiting every year? Wouldn't sponsors be dying to jump on board? Wouldn't a larger group of Edmonton go to see it?

Its a great idea. We gave it an honest shot. If it would have been successful for the city I would be on board. But it isn't, and probably wont be this year.

I don't think we need to 'replace' it with anything. Lets enhance the festivals we do have. Folk Fest, Capital X, Taste Of Edmonton, The Fringe, River Raft Race (forgot what that was called)

^Lets make all these events bigger and better! They work! They are popular, and with more support, they can increase their economic impact even more!

Chmilz
04-06-2010, 10:51 AM
^In economic dollars, the Indy is hugely profitable. But the small-brained masses in this city only look at the balance sheet of the Indy itself. If ticket sales < cost of Indy, then it's a loss in their minds. Ticket sales are just a small part of the total economic boost of the Indy. Hotels, food sales, liquor sales, shopping done, etc. by tourists also need to be factored in.

kcantor
04-06-2010, 10:52 AM
events like the indy are much like having an internationally recognized university or art gallery or theatre group or park system or fringe festival or an expo or an arena or a ball park in rossdale...

it is not just how much money they make or how large an investment is required to put them on. in their aggregate they represnet the depth and qualtity of life styles and activities that can be pursued in a city. all of them are not for everybody but collectively we all benefit from them. they are not an alternative to investing in lrt or buses or roads or schools or neighborhood [re]development. all of these things are an integral part of city building.

and one last point that tends to be forgotten - these things are all an integral part of our reputation as a city and how we conduct ourselves as a city. and a city's reputation is not much different than an individual's reputation. we only have one. and the one that we created with the continent's first lrt for a city our size and our hosting of the commonwealth games and our development of world leading (not just world class) water and sewage and recycling intitiatives and contractors and financial institutions and park systems (despite their unfinished potential) will be put more and more in jeapordy the more we conduct ourselves like we're podunk, alberta and not edmonton alberta.

regardless of whether it's council or administration or northlands or eedc or indivdual firms or simply individuals, we seem to be spending more and more time not striving to be the best but simply hoping not to look bad. the first will get us somewhere we should go. the second isn't as risky but will only take us back to somewhere we deserve to leave forever.

IanO
04-06-2010, 10:53 AM
While i do not feel as though it is run as well as it could be, investing $3-5 mil a year in public dollars for the return on things stated above is a good investment IMO.

Think about it... say only 7,500 people come in from out of town for the 3 days and spend on average $400/day for hotel, food, taxis, drinks, etc. etc.... = $3,000,000.00

Again

Ian I agree and appreciate your point but for a moment lets assume the Indy is gone, as many want...what do we replace it with?

Tom


Red Bull air race/flugtag?

bobinedmonton
04-06-2010, 10:54 AM
^In economic dollars, the Indy is hugely profitable. But the small-brained masses in this city only look at the balance sheet of the Indy itself. If ticket sales < cost of Indy, then it's a loss in their minds. Ticket sales are just a small part of the total economic boost of the Indy. Hotels, food sales, liquor sales, shopping done, etc. by tourists also need to be factored in.


Keep in mind that it us "small-brained masses" that have to foot the bill for this event that most will never attend, have no interest in, or receive any benefit from. I don't run or work in a hotel, nor do I drive a taxi or run a restaurant. This event has NO IMPACT on my life, and I resent my tax dollars subsidizing an event that does not support itself. Surely we can come up with an event that benefits the city as a whole and does not require taxpayer subsidies.

Thomas Hinderks
04-06-2010, 10:57 AM
There is no way the economic impact is that much! If it was wouldn't this race be profiting every year? Wouldn't sponsors be dying to jump on board? Wouldn't a larger group of Edmonton go to see it?

Its a great idea. We gave it an honest shot. If it would have been successful for the city I would be on board. But it isn't, and probably wont be this year.

I don't think we need to 'replace' it with anything. Lets enhance the festivals we do have. Folk Fest, Capital X, Taste Of Edmonton, The Fringe, River Raft Race (forgot what that was called)

^Lets make all these events bigger and better! They work! They are popular, and with more support, they can increase their economic impact even more!

Actually Komrade

The economic impact are much higher...the debate has always been how much higher.

If we don't replace it we have a problem, not to say I don't want the events you've listed to grow and be successful but lets be fair.

The Folk Fest is sold out...how much more successful can it be?

Cap X...is a fair designed to live off the local economy what does it offer as a tourism destination to someone from Idaho/Europe?

Taste of Edmonton is a wonderful community event...key being community event...tourism event? Once you get them here its a nice way to make us look great, but I do not believe its gonna get them here on its own.

The Fringe...if we apply the standards that bobinedmonton does to the Indy we should pull all support. It is a net cost event and as an equivalent tourism driver its a tough one as there are many similar events and many of the acts tour.

So while I personally support these events I can't see them being able to grow to act as a replacement.

But hey thats just me

Tom

Sonic Death Monkey
04-06-2010, 10:59 AM
Replacement for the Indy? Transform Capital Ex from a rinky-dink regional fair to a National Exhibition at the same level as CNE and PNE. Or turn it into Calgary Stampede Northern Edition!!

Thomas Hinderks
04-06-2010, 11:01 AM
^In economic dollars, the Indy is hugely profitable. But the small-brained masses in this city only look at the balance sheet of the Indy itself. If ticket sales < cost of Indy, then it's a loss in their minds. Ticket sales are just a small part of the total economic boost of the Indy. Hotels, food sales, liquor sales, shopping done, etc. by tourists also need to be factored in.


Keep in mind that it us "small-brained masses" that have to foot the bill for this event that most will never attend, have no interest in, or receive any benefit from. I don't run or work in a hotel, nor do I drive a taxi or run a restaurant. This event has NO IMPACT on my life, and I resent my tax dollars subsidizing an event that does not support itself. Surely we can come up with an event that benefits the city as a whole and does not require taxpayer subsidies.

And that event is.......

More to the point, an event that brings new $$$ into Edmonton affects everyone, regardless of what the event is.

An event that improves Edmonton's image and attraction attracts new business, new people moving to Edmonton and affects everyone, regardless of what the event is.

So back to the topic...what do you suggest it be replaced with?

Tom

Chmilz
04-06-2010, 11:03 AM
^In economic dollars, the Indy is hugely profitable. But the small-brained masses in this city only look at the balance sheet of the Indy itself. If ticket sales < cost of Indy, then it's a loss in their minds. Ticket sales are just a small part of the total economic boost of the Indy. Hotels, food sales, liquor sales, shopping done, etc. by tourists also need to be factored in.


Keep in mind that it us "small-brained masses" that have to foot the bill for this event that most will never attend, have no interest in, or receive any benefit from. I don't run or work in a hotel, nor do I drive a taxi or run a restaurant. This event has NO IMPACT on my life, and I resent my tax dollars subsidizing an event that does not support itself. Surely we can come up with an event that benefits the city as a whole and does not require taxpayer subsidies.
The tax dollars this brings in is more than the tax dollars we spend to keep it going, thus keeping your taxes lower in the end. Learn math, bob.

Thomas Hinderks
04-06-2010, 11:03 AM
Replacement for the Indy? Transform Capital Ex from a rinky-dink regional fair to a National Exhibition at the same level as CNE and PNE. Or turn it into Calgary Stampede Northern Edition!!

But to do that it will run a deficit as per the Indy...we know how that goes over.

BTW

I agree SDM but if we hold the same attitude as we have with the Indy...

Tom

Komrade
04-06-2010, 11:12 AM
Does anyone have numbers? Is there anyway for me to see the Impact of Indy versues other events like Folk Fest or the Fringe? I want to see figures!

kcantor
04-06-2010, 11:15 AM
What jobs will be lost? Would it not be more prudent to concentrate on permanent jobs and long term growth than tourist attractions that are wholly dependent on weather and the state of the economy? I would rather see the creation of construction jobs for at least the next 10 years by redeveloping the airport lands for residental than wasting it on sports events and aircraft that could easily use other facilities.

it's not that there are any "indy jobs" that might be lost. it's the jobs that are lost at cwb or stantec or ledcor or the university or intuit or [insert company/industry of your choice here] because, on a overall basis, we are not developing a city - and the activities and lifestyles within a city - that are attractive to the individuals needed to fill those jobs. and as i noted in my last post, it's not just the indy. its everything from the art gallery to the birkenbeiner (sp?) and the indy is - or should be - another integral piece of the overall puzzle just the same way the cfr and the ballet and stollery are integral pieces of the puzzle.

bobinedmonton
04-06-2010, 11:18 AM
^In economic dollars, the Indy is hugely profitable. But the small-brained masses in this city only look at the balance sheet of the Indy itself. If ticket sales < cost of Indy, then it's a loss in their minds. Ticket sales are just a small part of the total economic boost of the Indy. Hotels, food sales, liquor sales, shopping done, etc. by tourists also need to be factored in.


Keep in mind that it us "small-brained masses" that have to foot the bill for this event that most will never attend, have no interest in, or receive any benefit from. I don't run or work in a hotel, nor do I drive a taxi or run a restaurant. This event has NO IMPACT on my life, and I resent my tax dollars subsidizing an event that does not support itself. Surely we can come up with an event that benefits the city as a whole and does not require taxpayer subsidies.
The tax dollars this brings in is more than the tax dollars we spend to keep it going, thus keeping your taxes lower in the end. Learn math, bob.

I learned math in Montreal, where I was assured that "the Olympics have as much chance to lose money as a man can have a baby". $$$Billions of dollars and increased taxation later, their economy is still in the toilet and they are stuck with a stadium that nobody wants. We don't need these billion dollar boondoggles, Edmonton has enough festivals and events that don't cost anybody anything and benefit everybody. Enough, already.

Alex.L
04-06-2010, 11:20 AM
I think you've missed the point, Komrade. The race itself isn't profitable, so sponsors don't want to jump on board and dole out more of their money for it. The event garners a perceived net profit to the city (5 million input, 5+ million economic spinoff). This isn't money going directly back to the organizers of the race, but to the hotels, restaurants, merchants, etc used by the tourists coming into the city. Not to mention the intangible profits such as the excitement and energy around the city when the event is held.

Tom, as far as what else could we do to replace it I think that Edmonton needs to start looking at things like long distance bike races (i read an article about the potential for an Alberta "Tour de France" a few weeks ago), X Games (think street-luge down Queen E Park Rd and all other events at Northlands), a major 3 day concert festival IN the city (The spinoff from the Pemberton Festival in 2008 was in the tens of millions of dollars).

The options are there. I just think that most Edmontonians are more content to not disturb their day to day lives than to embrace an international event. If it closes a few roads for a weekend or takes attention away from a local event people will be up in arms about it.

I can't help but think of places like Toronto around the Muchmusic building where they routinely close streets to hold concerts. Charge admission to get close to the stage and let everybody else watch for free, paying vendors inflated prices to try to recoup costs. Rice Howard Way/100a street combined with Churchill Square could be a pretty amazing place to hold a major major concert festival. Better yet, just Churchill Square! Next time Nickelback wants to play in Edmonton put a stage in front of city hall and let them play there to a crowd in the square! I know people won't like that I suggested Nickelback, but they are one of the more profitable bands in the world. fact is fact. Make it a concert series, make DVDs from it. We need to make people WANT to come to an event here by making it unique. I'd suggest using the river valley but that probably won't fly simply due to the litter created at one of these types of events.

what about at Kinsmen? why aren't there more events here? A nice big open area bordered by the river, with a very good view of Edmonton's landmark High Level Bridge. far enough away from most residential to alleviate concerns, very central, easy to get to from the airport, etc. Think of the Winter events that could be held here and how amazing it would look.

I just think that people need to start thinking bigger. Good topic. I'm sure I'll be very active in this thread. Sorry for rambling on and on.

kcantor
04-06-2010, 11:21 AM
^In economic dollars, the Indy is hugely profitable. But the small-brained masses in this city only look at the balance sheet of the Indy itself. If ticket sales < cost of Indy, then it's a loss in their minds. Ticket sales are just a small part of the total economic boost of the Indy. Hotels, food sales, liquor sales, shopping done, etc. by tourists also need to be factored in.


Keep in mind that it us "small-brained masses" that have to foot the bill for this event that most will never attend, have no interest in, or receive any benefit from. I don't run or work in a hotel, nor do I drive a taxi or run a restaurant. This event has NO IMPACT on my life, and I resent my tax dollars subsidizing an event that does not support itself. Surely we can come up with an event that benefits the city as a whole and does not require taxpayer subsidies.
no impact????

every cent those hotels and taxis and restaurants and all of their owners and employees pay in property taxes and user fees etc. to support the city as a whole - and your life style in it - is one more cent you don't have to pay in your property taxes.

that's what makes the cost of holding the event (which includes salaries paid to bus drivers and police officers and a myriad of other suppliers that all gets respent in edmonton) an investment, not a subsidy.

Thomas Hinderks
04-06-2010, 11:22 AM
bob

Appreciate your point of view and understood where you were coming from till this one...

"Edmonton has enough festivals and events that don't cost anybody anything and benefit everybody."

Really...

Can you name the ones that receive no tax dollars please?

Tom

Thomas Hinderks
04-06-2010, 11:23 AM
Does anyone have numbers? Is there anyway for me to see the Impact of Indy versues other events like Folk Fest or the Fringe? I want to see figures!

So do I, for all of them, real numbers.

When you find accurate information please do let me know.

Tom

Thomas Hinderks
04-06-2010, 11:25 AM
I think you've missed the point, Komrade. The race itself isn't profitable, so sponsors don't want to jump on board and dole out more of their money for it. The event garners a perceived net profit to the city (5 million input, 5+ million economic spinoff). This isn't money going directly back to the organizers of the race, but to the hotels, restaurants, merchants, etc used by the tourists coming into the city. Not to mention the intangible profits such as the excitement and energy around the city when the event is held.

Tom, as far as what else could we do to replace it I think that Edmonton needs to start looking at things like long distance bike races (i read an article about the potential for an Alberta "Tour de France" a few weeks ago), X Games (think street-luge down Queen E Park Rd and all other events at Northlands), a major 3 day concert festival IN the city (The spinoff from the Pemberton Festival in 2008 was in the tens of millions of dollars).

The options are there. I just think that most Edmontonians are more content to not disturb their day to day lives than to embrace an international event. If it closes a few roads for a weekend or takes attention away from a local event people will be up in arms about it.

I can't help but think of places like Toronto around the Muchmusic building where they routinely close streets to hold concerts. Charge admission to get close to the stage and let everybody else watch for free, paying vendors inflated prices to try to recoup costs. Rice Howard Way/100a street combined with Churchill Square could be a pretty amazing place to hold a major major concert festival. Better yet, just Churchill Square! Next time Nickelback wants to play in Edmonton put a stage in front of city hall and let them play there to a crowd in the square! I know people won't like that I suggested Nickelback, but they are one of the more profitable bands in the world. fact is fact. Make it a concert series, make DVDs from it. We need to make people WANT to come to an event here by making it unique. I'd suggest using the river valley but that probably won't fly simply due to the litter created at one of these types of events.

what about at Kinsmen? why aren't there more events here? A nice big open area bordered by the river, with a very good view of Edmonton's landmark High Level Bridge. far enough away from most residential to alleviate concerns, very central, easy to get to from the airport, etc. Think of the Winter events that could be held here and how amazing it would look.

I just think that people need to start thinking bigger. Good topic. I'm sure I'll be very active in this thread. Sorry for rambling on and on.

Thanks Ander

This is the path I was hoping to go down

But i have to go offline for now

Tom

Komrade
04-06-2010, 11:26 AM
Does anyone have numbers? Is there anyway for me to see the Impact of Indy versues other events like Folk Fest or the Fringe? I want to see figures!

So do I, for all of them, real numbers.

When you find accurate information please do let me know.

Tom
Let us all know! Someone get on it! Right now we are taking in theory, no one knows how these events stack, how the money comes back to us.

It would help me make a more intelligent decision in my stance.

Alex.L
04-06-2010, 11:30 AM
two words.

boat.
races.

and not raft races. high powered boats please.

Komrade
04-06-2010, 11:31 AM
two words.

boat.
races.

and not raft races. high powered boats please.

This

Chump
04-06-2010, 11:33 AM
it is not just how much money they make or how large an investment is required to put them on. in their aggregate they represnet the depth and qualtity of life styles and activities that can be pursued in a city. all of them are not for everybody but collectively we all benefit from them. they are not an alternative to investing in lrt or buses or roads or schools or neighborhood [re]development. all of these things are an integral part of city building.

Bolded because it needs to be.

kcantor
04-06-2010, 11:34 AM
to get back on topic, we could replace it with a 24 hour "green vehicle race" which would be open to vehicle of any kind where the winner would be vehicle that completed the greatest distance on the least amount of energy per km regardless of whether that energy was derived from solar or diesel or fuel cells or batteries or methanol...

it wouldn't matter whether it was held at the aiport or at northlands or whether we used a closed road circuit (we close roads for triathlons and various runs etc. all the time). we could still tie it in to things like the dragon boat races and the soap box races and the street parties and the music.

but regardless of what happens, even if we keep the indy race (and i strongly believe we should keep the indy race) we have to turn it into a celebration that is inclusive and not simply "something we have to do" because that attitude as much as anything else as why we're having these kinds of discussions in the first place.

Chump
04-06-2010, 11:35 AM
two words.

boat.
races.

and not raft races. high powered boats please.

This

Agreed. Good suggestion. If a city of 200,000 could host this in the past so can Edmonton.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9CnwSttg4g

(one concern I might have is that the river might be too shallow in Edmonton - the South Saskatchewan going through Saskatoon has a weir....not to start a weir debate again...could be on a nearby lake perhaps)

Chmilz
04-06-2010, 11:36 AM
How about a mini-Sturgis? We've got lots of locals that like everything big and noisy and like to show it off, and have money to burn.

edmonton daily photo
04-06-2010, 11:51 AM
I think we should find MORE races to add to the indy.. Ralley Car or even a winter car race!

http://www.writerguy.com/primitive/images/img-alcan/ice_race1.jpg

Maybe wecCan we get the iditarod to change its route? ;-P

Chmilz
04-06-2010, 11:56 AM
^We need snow for those. For the last decade we've had lots of cold, not much snow.

Alex.L
04-06-2010, 11:59 AM
two words.

boat.
races.

and not raft races. high powered boats please.

This

Agreed. Good suggestion. If a city of 200,000 could host this in the past so can Edmonton.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9CnwSttg4g

(one concern I might have is that the river might be too shallow in Edmonton - the South Saskatchewan going through Saskatoon has a weir....not to start a weir debate again...could be on a nearby lake perhaps)

awesome

Gemini
04-06-2010, 01:33 PM
It would be nice if the city could run hot air balloon races.
If they make it an event there could be lots of balloons attending.
Big companies could enter and put their name on the balloons.
You can get hot air balloons in all kinds shapes, beer cans, toys, houses, cars etc:.
Maybe a race from here to Leduc.
Maybe not a yearly event but one that could be implemented now and again.

XTendEdmonton
04-06-2010, 01:45 PM
Replacement for the Indy? Transform Capital Ex from a rinky-dink regional fair to a National Exhibition at the same level as CNE and PNE. Or turn it into Calgary Stampede Northern Edition!!


um.. "rinky-dink regional fair" -> not so much.

You realize that Capital Ex IS calgary stampede northern edition ....it's the exact same midway that goes to both cities.

But I do agree that the image and festival itself can be improved and built-upon

Alex.L
04-06-2010, 02:02 PM
the midway, yes. The rest of it, no.

The Stampede basically closes down the city for a week. It's a city-wide event, not just an event happening at Stampede Park. The energy and excitement generated by the Stampede, coupled with it having an international appeal make it a real event.

The "Capital Ex" brand doesn't have the same power. Klondike Days, even in its prime wasn't as big as Stampede. The organizers abandoned the history to try to draw in a younger more "hip" crowd, and while the numbers haven't dropped too badly the cache that Klondike Days had is simply not there anymore. This is evident simply by walking down Jasper Ave during the Ex and seeing businesses with their windows painted with Indy-inspired art, checkered flags, etc.

Capital Ex is eclipsed by the Indy. They need to have a common message or common brand. Even just driving through Calgary months before Stampede you see that they have embraced the brand of Stampede. It's all over their signage.

Edmonton's yearly exhibition is going through an identity crisis, and until we figure out what image we want to project, we are simply not going to be able to progress to a point where we can actually compare our yearly exhibition with Calgary's. That is not the direction of this thread though.

Chump
04-06-2010, 02:04 PM
....it's the exact same midway that goes to both cities

...and the same midway which then comes to Saskatoon for "The Ex". I'm sure you've heard of it - it is the "Stampede - Saskatchewan Edition" after all....

The presence of the same midway rides does not make they two events the same...

XTendEdmonton
04-06-2010, 02:14 PM
The presence of the same midway rides does not make they two events the same...

This is true, ... it does not make it the same event, however the main attraction of a Summer Exhibition for most fair-goers is the midway and rides i.e. CNE & PNE. Calgary has simply emphasized the rodeo portion of it all. Edmonton has the same event, just not built in conjunction with the Ex (i.e. CFR in the fall).

The real reason for the decline in attendance numbers over the last couple years is not because of the rebranding from Klondike Days to Capital Ex, however it's the fact that the city now hosts the Indy During one of the two weekends of the event, drawing people away from Northlands Park.

Sonic Death Monkey
04-06-2010, 02:15 PM
Calgary Stampede markets to a national and international audience.
Northlands has made it clear that Cap Ex is just a regional fair. Our annual exposition needs bigger thinking. Hence a CNE type thing.

Montrosian
04-06-2010, 02:16 PM
Guys, if we're gonna be able to call this the Edmonton Indy, it should be inside Edmonton. Having a racetrack out by castrol doesn't do a whole lot to showcase Edmonton in my opinion. Showcasing Edmonton is one of the main reasons we have this race isn't it? Honestly, I'd be up for having a street course downtown or something. It probably would'nt be any cheaper though to do that.

Sonic Death Monkey
04-06-2010, 02:18 PM
Guys, if we're gonna be able to call this the Edmonton Indy, it should be inside Edmonton. Having a racetrack out by castrol doesn't do a whole lot to showcase Edmonton in my opinion. Showcasing Edmonton is one of the main reasons we have this race isn't it? Honestly, I'd be up for having a street course downtown or something. It probably would'nt be any cheaper though to do that.

I agree. However, if a street race is a no-go and a permanent racetrack is needed then either do it at Northlands or somewhere in the undeveloped NE near the proposed LRT extension.

Alex.L
04-06-2010, 02:27 PM
how about a street course built into the new development at the airport? seems to me it would be much easier to design a community around a racetrack than design a racetrack within a community.

again. not the aim of the thread.

Paul Turnbull
04-06-2010, 02:41 PM
The question hinges on the assumption that the city is deriving economic benefit from the Indy, however nobody seems to have the numbers to prove that. There's no point in trying to answer the question unless we know what the net gain to the city is that we're trying to replace.

I also don't think it's fair comparing something like the Stampede to the Indy. The Stampede has events appealing to broad range of people, the Indy appeals to a narrower group. That in and of itself will decrease the benefit to the city.

Finally it should be noted that while events like the Stampede or the Edmonton Folk Fest get public funds through a formalized grant process the Indy is apparently having their losses covered as they generate them. Their business plan seems to be to try the grow the event by throwing public money at it until it succeeds. So again I think we need to have some quantification of just how much this even benefits the city, if it all.

faraz
04-06-2010, 03:22 PM
I have not been to the Indy yet nor plan on going but I fully support Edmonton hosting it for the benefits already mentioned but the biggest reason being international recognition. Every time I travel overseas, I'll run into people who don't know about Edmonton but they have heard of Calgary.

Gemini
04-06-2010, 03:37 PM
I do support the Indy for this city but I think one of the major factors of it losing money is it appeals to a narrow demographic.
It appeals to the male population. Men from 16 to 50. I am sure it appeals to under 16 but they usually don't have the cash to go. Before you start saying women go I think you will find that they are with their hubbies/boyfriends and more than likely they have no kids (or kids that are older).
If the city wants a big yearly attraction to replace the Indy it should be something that appeals to just about all ages. Not something were grandma can'nt stand the noise. They need to have something that will bring in all ages and social groups. Not just the ones that can afford a certain event. It needs to appeal to everyone.

Chmilz
04-06-2010, 03:40 PM
how about a street course built into the new development at the airport? seems to me it would be much easier to design a community around a racetrack than design a racetrack within a community.

again. not the aim of the thread.
Won't work. Reason? Grandstands. We need a purpose-built course with permanent grandstands. The grandstands are the single biggest item that's killing the profitability of the Indy. If we could build permanent stands around a course (and more of them) we'd be way better off.

kcantor
04-06-2010, 03:44 PM
I do support the Indy for this city but I think one of the major factors of it losing money is it appeals to a narrow demographic.
It appeals to the male population. Men from 16 to 50. I am sure it appeals to under 16 but they usually don't have the cash to go. Before you start saying women go I think you will find that they are with their hubbies/boyfriends and more than likely they have no kids (or kids that are older).
If the city wants a big yearly attraction to replace the Indy it should be something that appeals to just about all ages. Not something were grandma can'nt stand the noise. They need to have something that will bring in all ages and social groups. Not just the ones that can afford a certain event. It needs to appeal to everyone.

although with that logic we should say goodbye to the eskimos
and the concerts and sell commonwealth stadium...

Gemini
04-06-2010, 03:49 PM
^Not the same thing. Lots of gals support the home teams.
Lots of girls go to concerts: Please see the Justin Bieber thread.
We are talking about a yearly one of a kind event for everyone to be involved in.
Not just the people in the city but people coming into the city to participate in.
The Indy mostly appeals to males.

ersatz
04-06-2010, 03:54 PM
if i could abstract this conversation for a moment: i think it is a cultural imperative to have special events that put our city on the map and make us proud. special events are more than profit-loss centers; they are points of civic and personal pride, and part of earning the respect of the world as an international destination.

we edmontonians suffer from a festering inferiority complex and a silent commitment to being mediocre. we are afraid to take risks, we are afraid to make bold moves,and we are afraid to exhibit first-class ambition in our actions. the few cultural gems that we have are muted by a growing indifference (folk festival, fringe festival, caribbean festival, edmonton opera, eso, art gallery), and any other attempts at welcoming the world are shot down because 'we need to create more jobs and fix potholes'.

as pragmatic sounding as job creation and pothole fixing may be, fixating on these at the exclusion of growing our national presence would be a gross mistake.

Hilman
04-06-2010, 03:58 PM
You would be amazed at the number of women, especially young women who are at the Indy. If you were a single women, wouldn't you want to go to a place that has a lot of men? The Indy is much more than racing, it is a gathering for food, drinks, music, etc. Sounds kind of like the Stampede, it gets people together for the same reasons (food, drink, music, etc), how many people have been to a farm or ridden a horse that attend the Stampede.......

Chmilz
04-06-2010, 04:02 PM
I've only been to the 2007 Indy and was in the Budweiser pit at turn 1... and I think there was only about a handful of other guys in there. It was mostly women, and they were totally into it.

IanO
04-06-2010, 04:08 PM
Street race would be so awesome but logistically a nightmare...hence why IRL loves our airport venue. Simple, secure, accessible.

Gemini
04-06-2010, 04:10 PM
if i could abstract this conversation for a moment: i think it is a cultural imperative to have special events that put our city on the map and make us proud. special events are more than profit-loss centers; they are points of civic and personal pride, and part of earning the respect of the world as an international destination.

we edmontonians suffer from a festering inferiority complex and a silent commitment to being mediocre. we are afraid to take risks, we are afraid to make bold moves,and we are afraid to exhibit first-class ambition in our actions. the few cultural gems that we have are muted by a growing indifference (folk festival, fringe festival, caribbean festival, edmonton opera, eso, art gallery), and any other attempts at welcoming the world are shot down because 'we need to create more jobs and fix potholes'.

as pragmatic sounding as job creation and pothole fixing may be, fixating on these at the exclusion of growing our national presence would be a gross mistake.
I agree 100% we need to think outside the box when it comes to special events. 99% of the people on C2E do think outside the box.
The festivals you have listed are well attended and have appeal to many age groups.
Finding a yearly special event that attracts all ages is not as easy as it seems.

Gemini
04-06-2010, 04:15 PM
You would be amazed at the number of women, especially young women who are at the Indy. If you were a single women, wouldn't you want to go to a place that has a lot of men? The Indy is much more than racing, it is a gathering for food, drinks, music, etc. Sounds kind of like the Stampede, it gets people together for the same reasons (food, drink, music, etc), how many people have been to a farm or ridden a horse that attend the Stampede.......
Yes, I should imagine it would appeal to young women who are foot loose and fancy free.
Would it appeal to women 50-55. Million dollar question.
They say that singles and the just retired group have more disposable income than most any other group.
If only we could think up an event that would attract those groups.

Sonic Death Monkey
04-06-2010, 04:19 PM
^ There should be auxilliary events around the Indy to appeal to various groups.
I mean, how many people go to the Stampede to watch the rodeo?

McBoo
04-06-2010, 04:21 PM
If the Indy goes, the majority of Edmontonians will continue on with their lives as if nothing had happened. You see, this event only attracts a tiny minority of the people in this city. If it loses money, then it should move to a place where it can make money. If an event can't make money, then it is not popular and does not deserve taxpayer support. And that includes hockey.

Here, here - but why stop there? While we're at it, demolish that art gallery, close the museum, silence the symphony and off the opera. And hey, I'm just getting started.

Let's see, burn the books because the Library can't pay its way - stop clearing the streets, or for that matter fixing potholes - possibly starting with those on your street (such a popular theme here), and while we're on a roll make churches start paying taxes!

It may be that the Indy can't make it here long-term without subsidies we're unwilling to pay, but the deficit has been going down and the fact is if you want to see this type live anywhere west of Toronto - you'll have to come to Edmonton to do that. And I believe that's exactly what happens.

Gemini
04-06-2010, 04:26 PM
^If you are referring to Mosport they run successful races.
I was there years ago. There were fields of R.V.'s from all over Canada & USA watching the cars.
Move the Indy to a bigger venue. Have fields around for R.V's to park.
Market it that way, that's what Edmonton needs to do.
Think big.
Look at the Big Valley Jamboree. Has R.V. parking etc: People think of that as part of their holidays.

Hilman
04-06-2010, 05:07 PM
You would be amazed at the number of women, especially young women who are at the Indy. If you were a single women, wouldn't you want to go to a place that has a lot of men? The Indy is much more than racing, it is a gathering for food, drinks, music, etc. Sounds kind of like the Stampede, it gets people together for the same reasons (food, drink, music, etc), how many people have been to a farm or ridden a horse that attend the Stampede.......
Yes, I should imagine it would appeal to young women who are foot loose and fancy free.
Would it appeal to women 50-55. Million dollar question.
They say that singles and the just retired group have more disposable income than most any other group.
If only we could think up an event that would attract those groups.

Million dollar question is who spends more. I would bet a lot that the 18-40 demo of women would spend multiple times more on food, beer, etc. which is more beneficial to the event. Having said that, they should try to have something for all ages to maximize revenue.

Thomas Hinderks
04-06-2010, 06:53 PM
Does anyone have numbers? Is there anyway for me to see the Impact of Indy versues other events like Folk Fest or the Fringe? I want to see figures!

So do I, for all of them, real numbers.

When you find accurate information please do let me know.

Tom
Let us all know! Someone get on it! Right now we are taking in theory, no one knows how these events stack, how the money comes back to us.

It would help me make a more intelligent decision in my stance.


Now there is NO reliable data on any of the events we have dicussed.
- No % of out of region vs local participation
- No $ per night spent
- No REAL figures on economic impact

Seems like we are not supposed to know about any of the events (not just the Indy) which leaves us to extrapolate from other venues (other than Edmonton)

Tom

Thomas Hinderks
04-06-2010, 06:59 PM
Gee I go off to get a bunch tests done and fine the thread has grown a ton.

While this one didn't exactly go as I hoped I am glad I started it...reading through has been enlightening.

As to the suggestions for events, additional races, Red Bull Air Races, other attractions, inclusivity and such....you do realize that is exactly what a group of us are trying to do as volunteers with Race Week Edmonton?

The sad part is you would not beleive the negativity and barriers we are trying to overcome in doing it....as volunteers.

But its nice to know we are pushing in the right direction.

Tom

murphys
04-06-2010, 09:41 PM
I agree with with everything Bobinedmonton and Komrade had to post. I also want to mention that alot of tax money went to that darn Art Galllery so the City should promote that alot more to the world and also I like going to the horseraces a few times in the summer, especially the Canadian Derby and Alberta Fall Classics, so promote that as well. Northlands bailed out of the Indy and I want The City to do the same.

Drumbones
05-06-2010, 09:45 AM
I did not like the idea of running the Indy at the same time as Capital X. I wish they had kept Klondike Days, enhanced and grown it. People identified Edmonton with Klondike Days and it could have been Edmontons Calgary Stampede had the tall foreheads of this city had any sense

glasshead
05-06-2010, 11:26 AM
The sad part is you would not beleive the negativity and barriers we are trying to overcome in doing it....as volunteers.


Tom

It would be interesting to know what some of these barriers are Tom. Is it turf protection, lack of available volunteers, something else? I wonder if you are witnessing the first hand accounts (or root problems) of why things are hard to get started in Edmonton. I was always under the impression that there were plenty of willing volunteers in Edmonton...

Replacement
05-06-2010, 11:48 AM
You take a lot of flak in these types of threads bob but your opinion and voice is appreciated and possibly even by a silent majority that are viewing the thread.

Some of the attacks on what bob has said are revealing in regards to the repeated tone and slant of the board participants.

The specific responses that maybe we should just shut down the Eskimos, other entertainment, and build potholes all day long is specious reasoning.
When have the Eskimos ever lost 5.5M in a season? Maybe I missed it..:p

I especially like that you challenged that the average tax payer/non restaurant hotel proprietor does not benefit from this.

That its selective benefit.

The counters to that claim have lacked any substantiation or numbers. On good faith we are to believe that the TAX benefit of the event has well exceeded the 5.5M lost. Even if it has why are taxpayers being put in the position of subsidizing selective business gain?
Perhaps the industries that stand to gain most in this endeavor could maybe be more willing and paying partners?

Thomas Hinderks
05-06-2010, 04:05 PM
" When have the Eskimos ever lost 5.5M in a season? Maybe I missed it..:razz:"

Well in equivalent dollars that would have been in the early 60s when they lost money in a series of seasons and Tommy Fox (Associated Airways owner and pilot, also one of the founders of Edmonton International Speedway) pulled together the "nervous nine" and managed to save them.

But more to the point of your post...

As I said earlier I appreciate the point of view and the intent when I started this thread was what should it be replaced with...not boostering for the Indy.

That said if you look at virtually every sports team and most other endevours they too rely on the public tax dollar one way or another.

last season we hosted Winter Lights at a cost of $750,000.00 from the City of Edmonton through the EAC....a total of 12,000 Edmontonians attended.

Now what I find funny is where were all those complaining about the Indy Tax dollars then? It received a ton of publicity and no out cry.

Yes the Indy has issues, but it brings a large audience from outside of th region, brings new dollars in on a series of venues from hotels to retail and in scale it isn't even the equivalent lose leader Winter lights was.

So what really is the issue? Because based on Winter Lights, 92million in consulting fees and a whole other series of issues that get no outcry its obviously not the money.

My two bits anyway
Tom

Replacement
06-06-2010, 01:11 PM
" When have the Eskimos ever lost 5.5M in a season? Maybe I missed it..:razz:"

Well in equivalent dollars that would have been in the early 60s when they lost money in a series of seasons and Tommy Fox (Associated Airways owner and pilot, also one of the founders of Edmonton International Speedway) pulled together the "nervous nine" and managed to save them.Thanks. But of course that was a private bail out. I wouldn't have issue with that.


But more to the point of your post...

As I said earlier I appreciate the point of view and the intent when I started this thread was what should it be replaced with...not boostering for the Indy.Understood. I was surprised actually and good on you. I know you love this nature of event and it must be hard having this discussion on what to do now.


That said if you look at virtually every sports team and most other endevours they too rely on the public tax dollar one way or another.

last season we hosted Winter Lights at a cost of $750,000.00 from the City of Edmonton through the EAC....a total of 12,000 Edmontonians attended.
FTR this is 2009 quote for "Roughly 12,000 people attended the 9 events produced by Winter Light." Lets pay attention also to "Over 62,000 people attended all Winter Light related events." because the latter is the number clearly, that we should be paying more attention to. The total visits to the festival. Because whenever indy #'s are talked about its not how many people go its TOTAL attendance. Just so we are comparing apples and apples here. Isn't this fair?


Now what I find funny is where were all those complaining about the Indy Tax dollars then? It received a ton of publicity and no out cry.
So given my revision of the numbers why would there be outcry? This is clearly a public service event that undoubtedly costs something. It is a free event that is a free benefit to any residents that choose to take part. The key thing being that any resident can take part. For instance this is not an expensive ticket that eats through peoples pockets and still bleeds money. Isn't there a difference? I think one of the issues with indy in general and not only here is how much of a bleeder it is as a prosport. Its really a series of money losing events(mostly) that does not have its revenue, financing, expenses, in line. Who should really want to be partner with that nature of endeavor? Maybe Castroneves et al are overpaid relative to revenue they draw and what they are actually worth. Just a thought.


Yes the Indy has issues, but it brings a large audience from outside of th region, How large? I've yet to see actual counting numbers or a ballpark figure. What proportion of event ticketholders are from out of town, out of province, out of country?


brings new dollars in on a series of venues from hotels to retail and in scale it isn't even the equivalent lose leader Winter lights was.Again how do you talk about "lose leader" in this?
One is an event that arguably should be net profitable in nature based on solid attendance figures and high ticket price, the other is a community based no fee free service event available to all citizens of Edmonton.
I should note as well that a central tenet in Winter lights is in response to many citizens wanting action and endeavor to help make this an all year round more livable city. To create some enjoyment at a difficult time of year when people can be down and adversely impacted by living here through long winter months.
This may pay unseen benefits like improved physical, mental health, less lost time off at work, greater productivity, etc. who knows, but its plausible that there are unseen benefits that would be hard to calculate. I would say that every participant is emotionally buoyed by the festivities at a time of year where that is quite helpful to people here. Winter lights achieves that in spades imo. Wonderful events. Make people smile ear to ear outdoors in -30C Edmonton in February and you're probably doing something up right. Now more people should take it in in coming years. Experience it. But I think word of mouth will impact that.

Thomas Hinderks
06-06-2010, 09:59 PM
Replacement

"FTR this is 2009 quote for "Roughly 12,000 people attended the 9 events produced by Winter Light."

Lets keep it apples to apples....the only numbers every quoted officially for the Indy was prior to Northlands and they were all over 150,000 event attendance.

"This is clearly a public service event that undoubtedly costs something. It is a free event that is a free benefit to any residents that choose to take part. The key thing being that any resident can take part. For instance this is not an expensive ticket that eats through peoples pockets and still bleeds money. Isn't there a difference?"

So a $750,000 event to make Edmontonians feel good about living in Edmonton is ok...
But investing in an event that brings new dollars and visitors to Edmonton is not?

Nope gotta help me out on the rational on this one cause I don't get the train of thought...sorry

Outta time for now deal with the rest later

Tom

Replacement
06-06-2010, 11:14 PM
Replacement

"FTR this is 2009 quote for "Roughly 12,000 people attended the 9 events produced by Winter Light."Its not hard to google the actual numbers. This is not one where they keep it a closely guarded secret.

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/Sound+Edmonton+Winter+Light+festival/2680898/story.html
Estimated 62K in 2009 and topped 100K in 2010. Not too shabby, the second year that Winterlights has been a combined festival.




Lets keep it apples to apples....the only numbers every quoted officially for the Indy was prior to Northlands and they were all over 150,000 event attendance.Estimates I heard post event was that it fell well under 150K in 2009. For the 3 day event. 41K grandstand seats were available for the indy and it wasn't sold out last year. For sake of argument lets say that theres approx 50K different people that attend some portion of the weekend event(a generous estimate being that by and large most participants hold tickets to the full weekend.)So again how many of those 50k are from out of town. Maybe 10K. Of those how much is spent?(not including the price if indy tickets) How many hotel bookings, restaurants. etc. lets also assume many of these are families and with wife and kids in tow so we are talking maybe something like 1000 hotel bookings generated city wide. (being that many visitors could have an RV, friends, relatives homes as visiting options.)



So a $750,000 event to make Edmontonians feel good about living in Edmonton is ok...
But investing in an event that brings new dollars and visitors to Edmonton is not?I'm not even convinced that the event recoups the 5.5M loss from overall sales and revenue from visitors. Even using the very generous 10K estimate above this would mean every man, women, and child dropping 550bucks on the weekend in Edmonton just to match the event deficit. Which would basically only mean that taxpayers were on the hook for the exact same amount that visitors spent here. Which is no evidence of "bringing new dollars" here. Certainly not net dollars.


Again wheres the numbers? Its all speculation but is my analysis of this off somehow?

Thomas Hinderks
07-06-2010, 08:10 AM
Replacement

I've only got a few minutes but I want to back up a bit and deal with an earlier comment.

"Understood. I was surprised actually and good on you. I know you love this nature of event and it must be hard having this discussion on what to do now."

Appreciate the kind words but lets flesh out my attitude on this a bit.

Yes I did bring the first races to the airport in 1996,I am a former racer...but I haven't attended any racing event since 1996 because frankly its an addiction and if I get too close I get the itch again and want to get back into it and I do not have the time or the energy anymore. Which is why working with Race Week Edmonton is something that is very difficult for me.

But more to the topic...Events of this type (not necessarily racing) have proven virtually everywhere else to be major tourism draws, they change images of the centres hosting them and paint a picture of what a site is capable of.

So my point with the thread was (seems to have gone off on a tangent) if we are not doing the Indy what do we do to replace it...the tourism etc, etc.

Frankly I have already heard it from friends in other cities..."If you can't run an Indy what are you doing looking at an Expo?" and its a fair question.

An Indy is one of the easiest events with its draw and recognition to run. There are many templates to copy...I like using Cleveland because it is so comparable right down to the temp circuit on an airport. But we haven't followed those templates, we have not made the effort to make it work and it shows across the continent.

So to me the Indy is not a race...its a crossroads. We ether get serious, make it work and push forward to the next challenge, replace it with something else or throw our hands in the air and give up.

We talk of growing, we talk of construction jobs, we talk of tall towers and being more than we are...well to me its put up or shut up time this event is the test.

I don't give up.

More later

Tom

localyokel
07-06-2010, 11:03 AM
If we choose not to have the Indy event what do we replace it with?


NASCAR?

I always though Edmonton was more of a blue-collar, beer brawlin', lunch-pail town, replete with lotsa good ole' boys (or is "hosers" the term for north of '49?).

Thomas Hinderks
07-06-2010, 11:29 AM
If we choose not to have the Indy event what do we replace it with?
NASCAR?

I always though Edmonton was more of a blue-collar, beer brawlin', lunch-pail town, replete with lotsa good ole' boys (or is "hosers" the term for north of '49?).

Boy I completely agree...especially the Camping Truck series!

Pros
-Fits local demographic far better...wider North American coverage
-Stars that many Edmontonians already know of
-Currently looking for International venues

Cons
-Even more money than the Indy to get the event
-Nascar has a much higher level of expectation or performance than IRL

Tom

Thomas Hinderks
07-06-2010, 01:32 PM
Replacement

"Again wheres the numbers? Its all speculation but is my analysis of this off somehow?"

The last official numbers released were from 2007 before Northlands so its the best you are going to get under the conditions of IRL agreement (which I don't agree with) so we are stuck with what we have.
My understanding from the 2007 operators were 150,000 +/- which based on typical figures for open wheel races would be in the range of 70-80,000 unique weekend visitors (Sunday of course being the big day with the highest attendance)

The industry norm is 30-50% outside of the rubber tire traffic zone, for various operating and marketing factors I believe current operators are hitting 25% roughly.

For round numbers lets call it 70,000 unique visitors to the event and use the low of 25%...thats 17,500 out of zone visitors.

We could apply the various formulas that are used but frankly they usually give a high number...but I know a number of race promoters that advise $1,000 per for the weekend is a proven norm for even third level events. That includes all purchases from meals to accommodation, toys, gifts, hitting the bar, fuel, rental vehicle etc.

So using conservative numbers for 2007 economic benefit of 15-17.5 million.

Using these numbers would put Edmonton way down on economic impact compared to other open wheel events through North America but with all factors included likely about right in my opinion.

Should it be higher...oh yeah...could it be higher...oh yeah.

But to do so will take a major attitude shift and I make that statement based on what I am actually going through with RWE this year.

So theres my opinion and it differs greatly from many.


Tom

Replacement
07-06-2010, 04:05 PM
The last official numbers released were from 2007 before Northlands so its the best you are going to get under the conditions of IRL agreement (which I don't agree with) so we are stuck with what we have.
My understanding from the 2007 operators were 150,000 +/- which based on typical figures for open wheel races would be in the range of 70-80,000 unique weekend visitors (Sunday of course being the big day with the highest attendance)

The industry norm is 30-50% outside of the rubber tire traffic zone, for various operating and marketing factors I believe current operators are hitting 25% roughly.

For round numbers lets call it 70,000 unique visitors to the event and use the low of 25%...thats 17,500 out of zone visitors.

We could apply the various formulas that are used but frankly they usually give a high number...but I know a number of race promoters that advise $1,000 per for the weekend is a proven norm for even third level events. That includes all purchases from meals to accommodation, toys, gifts, hitting the bar, fuel, rental vehicle etc.

So using conservative numbers for 2007 economic benefit of 15-17.5 million.
A few problems I have with these estimates.

1)Attendance has gone down since 2007 so all the numbers are down from your estimates.
2)1000 spent/visitor on a weekend? Lets remember that many of the visitors would be families or groups that are sharing travel and if needed hotel expense. By and large for visitors, I could see groups and not individuals traveling to this event. Again with shared expenses.
3)25% or 17,500 are out of town visitors for this event? I thinks thats high. Of course it is for 2008, 2009 anyway. How far out of town? How many don't have family and friends here that they could stay with?

So your estimate of 15-17.5 is not conservative and I think are very much overestimated.

In anycase I thank you for this exchange and further to getting back to the topic of the thread I would concur that replacing indy with a similar racing event is a way to go.
But putting the stands up and taking them down for a one off event each year is plain nuts.
There should be some music festivals(would be perfect use of different bleacher stands) Small craft airshow like in Wetaskiwin, different circuit races. Bicycle race event, motorcycle, etc.
To have the expensive setup and takedown for this event is inefficient. My idea would be to setup the facility each year and USE it all summer for summer related events.
Maybe even some waiver public racing events or time trials and people paying to be able to use the track.

Thomas Hinderks
07-06-2010, 04:38 PM
Hello again replacement

"1)Attendance has gone down since 2007 so all the numbers are down from your estimates."

Quite possibly but they are the last numbers from a source other than guessing

"2) Lets remember that many of the visitors would be families or groups that are sharing travel and if needed hotel expense. By and large for visitors, I could see groups and not individuals traveling to this event. Again with shared expenses."

Well everywhere else the trend is what I listed and that is from a series of Open Wheel
periodicals and going with tier 3 events and lowest levels. From my experience when I was racing and touring I would say the my observations would back the trends listed.
Was a couple of decades ago but doubt its changed much.

"3)25% or 17,500 are out of town visitors for this event? I thinks thats high. Of course it is for 2008, 2009 anyway. How far out of town? How many don't have family and friends here that they could stay with?"

The guide from my hard copy is 30-50% so I did cut it down from the lowest level because of issues I see. As far as how far out of town...defined as beyond daily commuting range...staying overnight. If they are in the rubber tire zone (ie Spruce Grove/Stony Plain they don't count).

"So your estimate of 15-17.5 is not conservative and I think are very much overestimated."

In which case we agree to disagree and thats ok too.

" But putting the stands up and taking them down for a one off event each year is plain nuts.
There should be some music festivals(would be perfect use of different bleacher stands) Small craft airshow like in Wetaskiwin, different circuit races. Bicycle race event, motorcycle, etc.
To have the expensive setup and takedown for this event is inefficient. My idea would be to setup the facility each year and USE it all summer for summer related events.
Maybe even some waiver public racing events or time trials and people paying to be able to use the track."

On this I would agree...

Tom

Alex.L
08-06-2010, 03:13 PM
Where are the giant conferences/events for Edmonton?

in Calgary they are holding some huge Oil conference and have over 60,000 Registered Attendees, most of whom are going to Calgary just for the conference. 2,000 companies will be represented. This is HUGE! Especially at a time when Oil is top of mind for basically everybody within earshot of a radio or TV.

in Toronto, the G20 will bring (i assume) thousands of protesters to the city. Not really a tourist attraction, but that's just more money being pumped into the city of Toronto that wouldn't have been there otherwise.

Where is Edmonton's event? What do we have that can compete?

Thomas Hinderks
08-06-2010, 05:07 PM
Where are the giant conferences/events for Edmonton?

Ander

That is a question (among others) that I often have asked in political circles, with no answer.

Edmonton Economic Development and Edmonton Tourism are charged with bringing these type of events to Edmonton...as an arms length operation of the City of Edmonton.

As such I think its a great question to ask candidates in this falls election and also to ask how EEDC/ET are going to be held accountable for their failure to attract this type of event (and others).

Tom

DEESGOODWORD
08-06-2010, 06:26 PM
We lose a lot of the conferences because we don't have the large facilities that are needed to hold them--meeting spaces as well as hotels. Expanding Shaw or building another conference facility would help us get more.

Thomas Hinderks
08-06-2010, 07:05 PM
We lose a lot of the conferences because we don't have the large facilities that are needed to hold them--meeting spaces as well as hotels. Expanding Shaw or building another conference facility would help us get more.


I am afraid I disagree...
Between the Shaw Convention Centre, the former Agri Com and now as the expanded Expo Centre we have the facilities to host extremely large conventions and other gatherings.

Between our Downtown Hotels and those close to the centre of the City we have more than adequate rooms available and if you dd in those at the edge likely an over capacity.

Tom

Alex.L
09-06-2010, 01:18 PM
100% agree, Tom. The Expo Centre is a brilliant facility and it needs to be booked solid with a wide array of events. Not just car/boat/RV shows for the locals.

andy8244
10-06-2010, 12:18 AM
Where are the giant conferences/events for Edmonton?

in Toronto, the G20 will bring (i assume) thousands of protesters to the city. Not really a tourist attraction, but that's just more money being pumped into the city of Toronto that wouldn't have been there otherwise.

Where is Edmonton's event? What do we have that can compete?

I think you'll find that the billion+ being pi$$ed up the wall on security will cancel out the few bucks the crusties will spend in town.

That said, I like your thinking on trying to attract those eco-dollars! You'd think that with the tar-sands we'd have protesters streaming in by the bus load but man, even those guys can't bring themselves to spend any time in Edmonton. :smt082

To rectify this situation, I suggest we institute a deliberately antagonistic program of offing seal pups in Churchill Square, that should bring 'um in.

Alex.L
10-06-2010, 09:28 AM
I assume the bulk of those security costs is being covered at the Federal level. But this isn't a discussion about the G20. I just used it to make a point.

In my opinion the root of the issue is that Edmonton needs to build an event from the ground up instead of just transplanting an event which is currently taking place elsewhere. Build to success instead of borrow success, if you will.

IanO
11-06-2010, 11:10 AM
did i just hear the G20 event being compared to the indy?

localyokel
11-06-2010, 11:47 AM
^^^at least at the Indy the gas goes from the bottle into the cars fuel tank;)

...so, is the thought to have sort of a "killer app" type event where all the peoples gets rich from the zillions of touristas that just have to be here for it:), or is there any kind of momentum or critical mass from the onslaught of "festival season***" in Edmonton: i.e. Jazz, the Works, Cap X, Street Performers, EFMF, Fringe (I've no doubt missed some).

Or is it just the same folks walking around munching on the same green onion cakes from the same vendors as last week's "festival":smt102

***oops forgot Blueberry Bluegrass which ironically may bring in the most out of towners, at least per capita to their attendance.

Alex.L
11-06-2010, 12:24 PM
did i just hear the G20 event being compared to the indy?

I didn't mean to draw that much of a comparison to it, just to bring up events currently being held/prepared for in other Canadian cities. Looking for different events which may bring a lot of people to our humble city.

canoilers
12-06-2010, 07:17 AM
I'd say try to come up with something new and unique, something that nobody else has. It would probably be helpful if it's something weird and the weirder the better, those types of things usually get a blab on the news just because they're weird. We could have a donut fest where we throw donuts at each other or something like that.

Alex.L
21-06-2010, 03:11 PM
I just had an idea. What about a PGA Tour event? We have TONS of Championship courses around here, and golf events are usually a pretty big draw especially if there are some big name players who could be wooed into playing.

RichardS
28-06-2010, 01:41 PM
With an already crowded tour schedule, places all over the world with championship courses, and our relatively short season (compared to Florida et al)...the best we could hope for is a once-in-a decade event with the Men's PGA tour(s).

Alex.L
28-06-2010, 01:44 PM
You are probably right. I'm just trying to think of possibilities.

Hilman
07-07-2010, 12:27 AM
CTV Edmonton reported that the Edmonton Indy will be taken over by the company that runs the F1 in Montreal (Octane Racing Group Incorporated) for 5 years. The announcement will be made during the Indy according to the story, let's hope this is correct as a) it let's the City off the hook for any losses and b) a real race promoter would bring the event to a much higher level.

XTendEdmonton
07-07-2010, 10:04 AM
CTV Edmonton reported that the Edmonton Indy will be taken over by the company that runs the F1 in Montreal (Octane Racing Group Incorporated) for 5 years. The announcement will be made during the Indy according to the story, let's hope this is correct as a) it let's the City off the hook for any losses and b) a real race promoter would bring the event to a much higher level.

Tres Excite ... Let's hope they follow through!

Sonic Death Monkey
07-07-2010, 10:10 AM
^^ That would be excellent news. They make a massive party of the F1 in Montreal, whereas the Edmonton Indy is celebrated in the typical Deadmonton way (give or take a Bank Ultralounge beer tent or two).

IanO
07-07-2010, 10:17 AM
^not this year dude.

www.raceweekedmonton.com

XTendEdmonton
07-07-2010, 10:41 AM
Memo to Northlands: You're holding the Indy on the same weekend as Capital Ex for the 3rd year in a row - don't be surprised when attendance numbers for the Ex are low again. ...It's called scheduling

IanO
07-07-2010, 10:51 AM
^they purposely wanted to pair it dude.

indy during day, capex at night for people in town

XTendEdmonton
07-07-2010, 03:10 PM
^they purposely wanted to pair it dude.

indy during day, capex at night for people in town

you realize that most people don't do that right? Most families arent going to drop hundreds of dollars on two events in a single weekend. Especially for out of towners - they are forced to pick or choose which event holds priority over the other.

Hold it in August - make the Indy it's own special event.

Hilman
07-07-2010, 03:31 PM
The race isn`t that flexible, it has to be 1 or 2 weeks after the Toronto Indy for logistical reasons which puts it mid to late July.

Jimbo
07-07-2010, 03:39 PM
^not this year dude.

www.raceweekedmonton.com

Not to mention nearly 40 music performances, and a great street party, with more coming all the time.

http://raceweekfestival.com

IanO
07-07-2010, 04:15 PM
^they purposely wanted to pair it dude.

indy during day, capex at night for people in town

you realize that most people don't do that right? Most families arent going to drop hundreds of dollars on two events in a single weekend. Especially for out of towners - they are forced to pick or choose which event holds priority over the other.

Hold it in August - make the Indy it's own special event.

as mentioned below, IRL has windows for certain races due to geographic reasons

XTendEdmonton
07-07-2010, 04:27 PM
The race isn`t that flexible, it has to be 1 or 2 weeks after the Toronto Indy for logistical reasons which puts it mid to late July.

That's unfortunate ...